Goodbye to someone who really made a difference

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

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Storm Clarence wrote:

Are you trying to say that being on the terror list had nothing to do with Mr. Mandela and his ANC that condoned and practiced terrorism in their struggle for power?  Or that ANC and Mr. Mandela aligned themselves with Mr. Gadhafi and Mr. Castro?  Look at the freedom their two countries enjoy some 25 yrs. later. 

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We could debate whether it was a struggle for power or a struggle to be free. That's not the point though.

With the 1980's bombings in mind I can see why SA put the ANC on their list. The US placing the ANC on their list a year later I can also understand. What I haven't seen yet, is a valid reason for Mandela being on that list. So far in this thread we all seem to accept Mandela moved towards a peaceful change. Given the fact he was released in 1990, only two years after being placed on the list, it's hard to believe he supported, let alone actively supported, any violent attempts against the regime.

[steph Arnott]

Alicia Sautereau wrote;

If difference means ordering the death of hundreds then yup, he made a difference...
From terrorist to politician to saint, what a f`ed up world we live in...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And all the revered people from history were what? Mandiba did bad things, but having a nice chat over a cup of tea was not going to end apartheid. If you lived with it then you have a right to judge, But as your statement clearly shows you did not. Also get your facts correct "death of hundreds " that was dictated to world as propaganda. Lala ngoxolo brazo TATA MANDELA

[Storm Clarence]

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

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Storm Clarence wrote:

Are you trying to say that being on the terror list had nothing to do with Mr. Mandela and his ANC that condoned and practiced terrorism in their struggle for power?  Or that ANC and Mr. Mandela aligned themselves with Mr. Gadhafi and Mr. Castro?  Look at the freedom their two countries enjoy some 25 yrs. later. 

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We could debate whether it was a struggle for power or a struggle to be free. That's not the point though.

With the 1980's bombings in mind I can see why SA put the ANC on their list. The US placing the ANC on their list a year later I can also understand. What I haven't seen yet, is a valid reason for Mandela being on that list. So far in this thread we all seem to accept Mandela moved towards a peaceful change. Given the fact he was released in 1990, only two years after being placed on the list, it's hard to believe he supported, let alone actively supported, any violent attempts against the regime.

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Freedom is power! 

I don't recall the African leaded who once wrote to President Reagan: (Paraphrased) "SA is like a zebra, if you injure the whites the blacks will die."

 

 

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

Power means you call the shots though, freedom only means you can call your own.

(Again my apologies for the non-intended pun)

Hard to google "South African" and "zebra" to find out who said that. Luckily I'm a good googler if I say so myself.

Here:

Dr. Anthony Edward Rupert
Chairman of Rembrandt International Group of Companies Stellenbosch, South Africa

"The Challenge of Africa"

"Today, due to apartheid, we are seen as oppressors. We therefore have to face the most difficult trek of all – away from any discrimination. I am sure we shall succeed. We are of Africa – the pale-skinned catalysts that help to make things work. My message to the West is: Please do not turn in upon yourselves. Your future too lies in Africa. We need you now. ‘Southern Africa is like a zebra’, Chief Buthelezi, the leader of the great Zulu nation, recently said: ‘If the white parts are injured, the black parts will die too’. I agree and say: ‘If the black parts are injured, the white parts will die too."

Whether the quote is made up for good speeches or not, I do not know (or if this is a mis-quote).

Anyway, isn't that the truth? So how wise can we call Mandela for realising this and acting accordingly? We all know the alternative solution Mugabe had.

[Storm Clarence]

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

Power means you call the shots though, freedom only means you can call your own.

 

Anyway, isn't that the truth? So how wise can we call Mandela for realising this and acting accordingly? We all know the alternative solution Mugabe had.

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Calling my own shots is the pinnacle of power, but now we are playing semantics.

So how wise was President Reagan for realizing and acting accordingly?

 

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

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Storm Clarence wrote:

So how wise was President Reagan for realizing and acting accordingly?

 

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I'd say in his position he could have screwed things up beyond repair and he didn't do that..

Again, none of my posts are meant to discredit (or credit) Reagan. Maybe putting Mandela on the list was the best he could do. I don't know and it doesn't matter.

What is really important, is that Mandela was NOT put on the list for any terrrorist acts on his part. He was on the list because he was a member of the ANC.

[RudolphFarquhar]

Mandela remained on the Black List (see what I did there) because he was a co-founder of the militant arm of the ANC, and co-wrote its "mission statement" recognising the need for violence and NEVER, as far as I can determine, publicly renounced, regretted or apologised for his commitment.

**********Rudi**********

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

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RudolphFarquhar wrote:

Mandela remained on the Black List (see what I did there) because he was a co-founder of the militant arm of the ANC, and co-wrote its "mission statement" recognising the need for violence and NEVER, as far as I can determine, publicly renounced, regretted or apologised for his commitment.

**********Rudi**********

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He remained on the list until 2008 because in 1961, after the ANC was banned, he founded that wing?

Now you're just trolling again.

[Maelstrom Janus]

Quite astounding !! I call someone a idiot in one line in another thread ..I get a warning for flaming.... meanwhile several pages of this thread are taken up by two people arguing and hurling abuse at each other apparently unhindered.....maybe its because I was critical of linden labs in the thread I got the warning about or maybe its because Im not in the good ole USA but moderation seems a little out of sync on this forum and a more than a little unfair too.....

[steph Arnott]

Off topic, please read the community guide.