Advice? Advanced Lighting Model - No Effect On Materials Applied In world - Screenshots Included

[LillyBeth Filth]

I have been making and selling material maps for 18 months and using external 3D software to do this as well as display the maps for customer previews.

When LL announced that we could now apply Normal and Specular maps in world, obviously I was delighted because now I could test my texture maps "in" SL rather than external applications.

Different 3D engines can totally change how 3D textures look,  so what might look great in 3D Max, Poser, Daz etc may look very different within SL's environment due to different shaders etc.

Anyway, long story short, I have tried the new official viewer and I don't see any difference at all when I activate the Advanced Lighting Model and/or Ambient Occlusion. 

Shadows work fine. 

Now, I am aware my graphics card is not the best and I am going to up upgrading it to a 512 as soon as I have the finances and I also have poor internet speed (Not by choice, it's just the area I live in has no high speed internet) 

I was wondering if anyone could push me in the right direction or verify my thinking that it's my graphics card that's causing the lack of desired effect.

I have an iMac with 16 GIG Ram and my graphics card is ATI Radeon HD 4670 256 MB

Many thanks in advance for anyone who can help and advise ! 

 

 

This is a screenshot of my materials applied in real time in external software:

Here are some screenshots from within Second Life of the same texture but with and without the advanced settings. 

Here are my SL Graphic Settings:

[Frawmusl]

I do see it there, The mesh seems darker with more shadows. Not intense no, but it is there. Try putting a prim light up and moving it around the object. I find that normal maps in SL have to be REALLY intense to show up. Such as this linen map I made. Now I know its a silly question, but are you sure you put the maps into the object correctly?

 

 

I would love a TP in-world if you would like me to come help you troubleshoot, Always a chance for us both to learn more

[LillyBeth Filth]

Yes they're applied to the correct tab.

Ok...so I need to ramp up the Normal and Spec maps specifically for SL because in my own 3D software the normal map looks beautiful. 

really boost the maps and see how they look and will post the screenshots

Many thanks 

 

 

 

 

 

[LillyBeth Filth]

Oh sorry I missed your last line.. Of course I can TP you

I am on a UK time zone but I'll add you as a friend or vice versa when I am next online and thanks again  

[Drongle McMahon]

The effects don't show up well on highly detailed diffuse maps that already have lighting effects, especially with just one light source (sun/moon). That is a problem because you need those effects for people who can't use ALM. You need to play around a lot with the Glossiness anmd Environment spinners, and with lighting and camera angles, to get the desired effects. Best to play with these first using a blank black diffuse texture where you can see the effects without anything in the way. Anyway, the effects are there. Here is an example. Top row is nothing, ALM, ALM+AO in sunlight at 3pm. Bottom is sunlight at noon, nothing, ALM. Specular maps, including alpha channels of normal and spec maps, all have the same texture with just the metallic bits bright.

[LillyBeth Filth]

 

It's so frustrating because I sell Material Maps outside of SL too and the above is an example of one I have not yet tested in the SL environment but i am guessing the Normal and Specular are going to be too weak if applied in SL yet those same maps are the ones applied in the application I used to take this screenshot.

I will now have to go back over every material I made and change them for use in SL due to the fact that it appears that they need a lot more definition to be seen in the SL environment. 

ugh! 

[LillyBeth Filth]

I can see a Hell of a lot of test uploads for every material I make for SL now. I think there is a way of doing that without paying for the upload fee (?) Not sure how that works, I just recall seeing it as an option on some viewer at some point. 

[Ciaran Laval]

Login to the beta grid instead of the main grid.

[LillyBeth Filth]

Nope.

I am seeing no pixelation changes when I active the Advanced Light Mode at all. I have played with the environmental editor set it to 3pm and moved the sun to  East and the shadows move etc but nothing on the prim face changes.

I have ramped up the Normal and Specular and it looks "exactly" the same as the cube with nothing but the Diffuse applied.

If the 3D effect is THAT subtle and you have to add prim lights and change the environmental sun direction just to be able to see the materials bumpiness and shine then it begs the question "Why bother?"

I am not new to making and rendering maps but I am new to applying them in the new SL material supported platform and I cannot see any change from the regular diffuse only cube to the 3d material cube, not even on a subtle way.

This can't be right. It has to be something wrong with my graphics card. It is relatively old at 256 graphics RAM

Here's what I get and I have included the Normal and Specular maps to demonstrate the strength.

My main concern is not for my pleasure but to ensure what I sell to others is worthy of buying "for" use in SL and not purely for use in external 3D software which allows for these material maps to be edited procedurally to meet the end users preference 

Can't do that in SL and probably never will so they have to be right for my customers and I can't test them as I can't see them! lol

[BlackMagi Darkwatch]

Hi LIlyBeth

 

To test inworld (on the main grid) you can use a local copy of the file (which costs nothing) by selecting the face, choose texture, and instead of going to your textures folder you select local and browse to the file on your computer and then click add. If you make any changes to the local file then that should be reflected inworld.  This method whilst testing materials has saved some disappointments and also given me OMG's - that's awesome moments!

 

Black

[LillyBeth Filth]

Thanks Black

 

 

[Drongle McMahon]

A couple of things that may help.

First, your specular maps (especially the wall) look more like baked highlights under a particular combination of lighting and camera position. In that case, they will only produce highlights from exactly those lighting and camera angles, which will almost never show anything. All the areas representing reflective material need to be bright in these maps (see below).

Second. I don't know but suspect it's not standard how the alpha channels of the normal and specular maps are used. The alpha channel of the normal map contains spatial variation in the specular exponent (sharpness of highlights). So if you have different materials in the image, you need to have that information in the alpha channel. That makes the normal map look transparent, of course. If that is indeed not standard, then it may mean you can'y use the same normal maps inside and outside SL.

The same is true for the environmental reflection intensity, which is encoded in the alpha channel of the specular map. The environmental reflection is the old shiny. It approximates indirect reflection of the whole sky. Unlike the specular reflection, which reflects only direct light from light sources, it reduces the diffuse intensity as it gets stronger, This makes it good for metallic reflections, which bahave that way, but very bad for just about everything else. So once again, if you have mixed metallic and non-metallic parts in one map, you need the data in the specular alpha channel.

Your normal and specular maps appear to be completely opaque, showing that they have either no alpha channel or one that is uniformly white. In that case, the "glossiness" and "environment", controlled by the spinners, has to be uniform over the whole area. That is a serious limitation if you have different surfaces in the material. It more or less precludes the use of environmental reflection except on wholly reflective materials. If you do have the maps, then the spinners act as multipliers for the values in the maps, allowing accurate adjustment. Putting a suitable grey in the colour selector below them affects the intensity of the specular highlights, which can otherwise be oversaturated if the exponent is high. So that is another essential adjustment.

Third, your diffuse texture contains a great deal of lighting. I can even see a precise dark shadow of the spear. This is only consistent with that lighting and will conflict with any different lighting in SL. This is, of course the major dilemma for materials. You need that baked in (or phtographed or painted) lighting for the textures to be any good for people without ALM. So this kind of conflict is very difficult to avoid. I am sure its presence is another reason the ALM lighting effects are obscured.

By the way, it is worth noting that pseudo-relief from normal maps does not contribute ambient occlusion. So you still need baked/painted AO to get the full depth effect. Fortunately it is non-directional and does not suffer from conflict with the SL AO. It just adds to it.

[TatianaDokuchic Varriale]

---

Drongle McMahon wrote:

By the way, it is worth noting that pseudo-relief from normal maps does not contribute ambient occlusion. So you still need baked/painted AO to get the full depth effect. Fortunately it is non-directional and does not suffer from conflict with the SL AO. It just adds to it.

---

I've been wondering it the lack of an Ambient Occlusion Map is the reason that the changes with Materials is so subtle.  What do you think?

[Drongle McMahon]

There is in-world ao if you have it selected in preferences and turn on ALM. However, it can only be applied to real geometry, not to the fake geometry you make with normal maps. Since ao is a major factor in percieveng shape, it needs to be included in the diffuse texture. So that major effect does not go away when you turn ALM off.

So yes, I do think the absence of that change contributes to the impression that ALM isn't doing all that might be expected. It would have been nice to have a separate ao map, so that it could be separately adjusted in-situ. However, since it can be included in the diffuse texture, I guess it was considered that leaving it there would save resources.

By the way, there is a big problem with ao appearing where it shouldn't on large smooth mesh/prims. I think they may have fixed that in the project viewer. Generally though, the default inworld ao is quite faint, so that it only shows up clearly on light blank surfaces. Rather like specular reflection that you can see much better on dark blank objects than on those with detailed textures.

[LepreKhaun]

I just wanted to say; A well-asked question sometimes deserves a "KUDO" more than a poorly-answered one (and, god knows, there be a lot of those lately).

 

Your participation in the forums is appreciated.

[LillyBeth Filth]

---

Drongle McMahon wrote:

A couple of things that may help.

First, your specular maps (especially the wall) look more like baked highlights under a particular combination of lighting and camera position. In that case, they will only produce highlights from exactly those lighting and camera angles, which will almost never show anything. All the areas representing reflective material need to be bright in these maps (see below).

Second. I don't know but suspect it's not standard how the alpha channels of the normal and specular maps are used. The alpha channel of the normal map contains spatial variation in the specular exponent (sharpness of highlights). So if you have different materials in the image, you need to have that information in the alpha channel. That makes the normal map look transparent, of course. If that is indeed not standard, then it may mean you can'y use the same normal maps inside and outside SL.

The same is true for the environmental reflection intensity, which is encoded in the alpha channel of the specular map. The environmental reflection is the old shiny. It approximates indirect reflection of the whole sky. Unlike the specular reflection, which reflects only direct light from light sources, it reduces the diffuse intensity as it gets stronger, This makes it good for metallic reflections, which bahave that way, but very bad for just about everything else. So once again, if you have mixed metallic and non-metallic parts in one map, you need the data in the specular alpha channel.

Your normal and specular maps appear to be completely opaque, showing that they have either no alpha channel or one that is uniformly white. In that case, the "glossiness" and "environment", controlled by the spinners, has to be uniform over the whole area. That is a serious limitation if you have different surfaces in the material. It more or less precludes the use of environmental reflection except on wholly reflective materials. If you do have the maps, then the spinners act as multipliers for the values in the maps, allowing accurate adjustment. Putting a suitable grey in the colour selector below them affects the intensity of the specular highlights, which can otherwise be oversaturated if the exponent is high. So that is another essential adjustment.

Third, your diffuse texture contains a great deal of lighting. I can even see a precise dark shadow of the spear. This is only consistent with that lighting and will conflict with any different lighting in SL. This is, of course the major dilemma for materials. You need that baked in (or phtographed or painted) lighting for the textures to be any good for people without ALM. So this kind of conflict is very difficult to avoid. I am sure its presence is another reason the ALM lighting effects are obscured.

By the way, it is worth noting that pseudo-relief from normal maps does not contribute ambient occlusion. So you still need baked/painted AO to get the full depth effect. Fortunately it is non-directional and does not suffer from conflict with the SL AO. It just adds to it.

---

So basically, the real time preview I have been working with in my external 3D application means nothing?

 I don't understand the point of having a preview if it does not translate anywhere else. 

Also, why do or rather when did Normal and Specular maps need an alpha channel? This is totally new to me. I am baffled why they need them. 

I have never have I been asked for alpha channels or partial transparency in Normal and Specular maps I have made for game devs or people who buy them outside of SL. 

Is this particular to SL?

Wall Material is stone. I don't want it to have a high shine on it , I just want to highlight areas where light would catch such as the ledges,  hence it's mainly black.

A specular map with grey or too much white would make for a shiny wall which would look unrealtsic or so I have been taught. 

Anyway, I am interested in why I need to make alpha channels for Normal and Specular please  

And thanks ! 

[LillyBeth Filth]

I wonder. If I sent you the Diffuse texture displayed in my post could you make a Spec and Normal map and screenshot them in SL and do as I have include the maps so I (and others) can see the difference in these maps?

I know its a lot to ask but as we're discussing what should be etc... it would be a whole lot easier to demonstrate by visual aid rather then "should be" text 

Anyway, let me know and I can send it over to you 

[Drongle McMahon]

So basically, the real time preview I have been working with in my external 3D application means nothing? I don't understand the point of having a preview if it does not translate anywhere else. 

"Nothing" is probably overstating it, but you have shown us clearly that the environments don't produce identical results. (Unless it is that the ALM really doesn't work on your machine - did you try the normal maps on blank black texture with blanj white specular map and high shininess? That would tell you). Could it be that your environment has area lights? That would give specular effects visible over a much wider angle than with the SL sun. I guess it would be really useful if someone could make lighting setups for outside tools that mimic SL daylight. You can put lights in SL that might show up features no apparent in sunlight.

Also, why do or rather when did Normal and Specular maps need an alpha channel? This is totally new to me. I am baffled why they need them. ...Anyway, I am interested in why I need to make alpha channels for Normal and Specular please ... I have never have I been asked for alpha channels or partial transparency in Normal and Specular maps I have made for game devs or people who buy them outside of SL. ... Is this particular to SL?

Here are some links that expain the use of the alpha channels in SL.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Material_Data
https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Second_Life%27s_light_model_for_materials
https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Alpha_Modes_Do%27s_and_Don%27ts

 

Basically, they are the only place you can have spatial variation of specular exponent (as opposed to intensity) or environmental reflection. I if you don't use them, these are uniform over the wholw surface, set by the spinners. Of course that doesn;t mean you have to use them. It just limits what you get without them. I have no idea whether this encoding is used elsewhere.

I have no idea whether this encoding is used elsewhere. Googling "normal map alpha" leads to many links where it is not used this way, but here is one that suggests it is common. This cryengine link shows a variety of uses of the specular alpha which can be used in that context. I will leave it to those more knowlegeable to enlighten us further on this.

Wall Material is stone. I don't want it to have a high shine on it , I just want to highlight areas where light would catch such as the ledges,  hence it's mainly black. A specular map with grey or too much white would make for a shiny wall which would look unrealtsic or so I have been taught. 

Yes of course, it depends what you want to achieve. Maybe only the edges care rubbed smooth, so only they can make highlights. In that case your wall map is perfect. (Whatever the speculr map, if your specular alpha is black, or the environment spinner is zero, you don't get general shininess, but only precise specular highlights.)

Anyway, I am interested in why I need to make alpha channels for Normal and Specular please 

See above. If the surface contains areas with different sharpness of highlights (exponent = normal alpha), such as stone and metal, or different environmental reflection (specular alpha), such as wet and dry, then those differences can be encoded in those alpha channels. That is not to say you have to have them, just that without them those properties have to be uniform.

[Drongle McMahon]

Good idea. It would be time well spent for me. If you send your maps too, I could also look at those in SL to see whether differences in gpu/settings and/or lighting might be having effects too. Also it would let me make some comparative pictures.

[LillyBeth Filth]

Thanks Drongle! I'll log in and send them over. As well as some Volcanic Terrain I have made too with spec and normal..have a play and tell your opinion.

Someone purchased the Volcanic Terrain Materials and claimed they look great but I am unsure whether they're used in SL or externally at this point. 

PS You can keep the textures if you want them no need to delete, use them as if you purchased them

[LillyBeth Filth]

Thanks LepreKhaun,

 

Not here for Kudos lol But appreciate the appreciation  

[Jenni Darkwatch]

One way to figure out of the normalmaps behave as intended is to apply them to a blank white surface. I've done that many times only to discover that they do behave oddly on some texture surfaces.

[Chic Aeon]

Just a general comment that in looking through this thread I don't see mention of --

 

I have been working with materials over on the beta grid as well as the main grid. They DO appear to be very subtle changes when we are talking about texture maps  and not maps made in Blender, Maya etc.  to add sculpted definition to mesh items. What I notice a lot is that the lighting has MUCH to do with how the maps effect the look. And of course you have no control over the lighting that other folks will use when seeing your textures.

Realistically it would be very difficult for your map generating program to give you an exact look in world (any world) as there are too many variables -- and again lighting does come into play. So what you get is a generalized look and testing comes into play. Again, what YOU see will not necessarily be what other see.

I have seen inworld items that use normal maps to add tons of details to low poly mesh in a very convincing way. The mesh items using TEXTURES that have been mapped are a very different story -- something that took me awhile to grasp as I wasn't getting the idea that they were different and generated in various manners.

It seems like it will take awhile for this to get sorted out and judging from the long list of jira issues with the material viewer and Firestorm's comment that it may be awhile before materials are added to their viewer, it seems like planning too much right now may do little good for when the FINAL rendition of the system is working. The rules for materials in SL already changed once and those in the forefront at the beginning made items that don't work at all with the current viewer.

So, for me, while I am happy that I can make the maps and enjoy the process, I think I will be making both "regular" and "material" versions of product for a bit as we can't really know what will happen in the future.  It took mesh almost a year to become popular with a majority of folks. It will likely take awhile for materials too, especially when there are issues to iron out.

Also

[LillyBeth Filth]

In short, are you saying that the 3D engine for SL currently sucks? lol 

By Blender etc do you mean maps made with UVs etc?

I don't "generate" them. They are created in an external 3D application with a relief and materials shader and tweaked in real time as they're displayed in 3D and 2D (seperate windows) 

I am waiting for the screenshots from the people I sent the my maps to.

Two people claim they look brilliant and can see them well. And of course someone from this thread has a bunch he said he would test for me just to see if I am applying them wrong or my graphics card isn't up to the job.

As soon as I get them I wll post them. 

[LillyBeth Filth]

I just wanted to say that I have just noticed the stickie thread on Material Maps and am learning about Alpha Blending and 24 BIT TGA which was new to me. 

I am sorry I did not read this before I made this thread and I hope to learn what I am apparently missing from that thread,

I will come back and post my updated screenshots of my own and friends from maps I created and hopefully be able to demonstrate something positive!