Dartagan Shepherd

Did some research on it myself. Just had that verified from the commerce talk from SLCC, which is ongoing now.

Think I've got a pretty good idea actually, yes. Not engaging in camel spotting personally though, means that I don't need to be concerned with it enough to not take it at face value and can stick to the business of doing business rather than something that can't. In fact, new unique Merchants are also on the rise as well. Put something resembling science in that scientific thinking. This is business, less need for conjecture and more dealing with facts.

No, believe it was specifically asked and verified that these are mostly uniques. Modest enough numbers for that to be true. More camel spotting.

If I could add a thought to this, from a slightly larger approach. Would like to see this encompass a few more steps, which could solve multiple issues. The first would be to implement a master account, as I've brought up a few times before. Many benefits here to a master account, out of the scope of this particular issue, but one tie-in is that you have the choice of prohibiting sales from the users master account, and thereby all of the users alts. No IP bans necessary, up to LL to police whether alts are properly registered with their master account. Bonuses here such as reducing griefing and making it easier to enforce Intelectual Property violations. Before someone screams privacy, no user needs to know anything about the master account and a users alts, that data is only available to LL, with a simple action to "ban account" on the part of a merchant. Another related step might be to tie in parcel ban lists with the Marketplace. This is one small step to tying land to Marketplace sales. It makes it more advantageous to own land, a merchants main store serving as the ban list for their Marketplace account. [Edited to separate the two meanings of 'IP"]

It would be very interesting to use the OPs product as an example of experimenting with marketing. Higher prims to boot might make it that much more of a fun challenge, heheh. Awesome looking product and great graphics, though. Poor OP started getting derailed from the first post. Sorry about swinging that who's got the bigger profit and professional stick, because that's not the only thing being a Merchant in SL is all about for many people, and it's obnoxious if not understood. But right, you take good business advise from people who have a handle on good business, especially when the scope of the conversation involves "how to run a corporation" Problem is what happens to the quality of the conversation as you work through the misfires of that fun experiment to get to the working bits. Starting with a premise of advertising not working though, because "I" haven't made it work though and then proving that it doesn't work in spite of successes... twilight zone. Mentioned SLPro, wish you'd been able to get in on that, puts many discussions in perspective. 5, 6 and 7 figure earners there with positive energy and networking and sharing tips. We've got some great successful Merchants here in our midst, but haven't seen many of those others ever post on the forums. Same gripes about SL issues, but night and day. Night ... and ... day. Shameless plug for LL to bring back SLPro. Don't you dare take those valentines day things down, it's professionally unprofessional. Off the wall thing, we used to joke about selling snowballs to southern states, and actually did it as an experiment, it worked pretty darn well. That is if you want to incur the legal liability for someone getting crocked in the head by iceballs when they don't properly care for their snowballs. But otherwise, every day is valentines day for someone.

Ah, when experts were the higher level earners, and the idea was to figure out how to mangle things to work for you. You would actually pay attention when a success story came your way, or glean your real information from people that make things "work". Short of that, wikipedia, conspiracy and forum promotion by pointing out the failings of the entire system But it's cheaper than paying for advertising I suppose, if you eliminate the time factor completely, and don't measure in terms of volume and overall earnings. Some sort of reverse-commerce thing. Only here. Need another SLPro, if nothing else as a yearly support group.

Might help to dig into the backstory here spread over a few threads if that's at all interesting. It was about intentionally manufacturing a conspiracy to expose Lindens for not being honest. Feeling a bit foolish for trying to lend some help, along with other Merchants who tried. No payoff there, it's about exposing lies of the evil empire rather than a conversation. Strange to me, but so be it. Never opposed to sincerity and someone personally affected by an issue, there's rarely an argument to make. Unfortunately as an adult, whether something is sincere or drama is a call that I have to make for myself. Some residual snark mixed in with trying to make a case for improved communication on BOTH sides. Low personal tolerance for games and the blame and shame thing. Tear that apart as you will, chalk it up to opinion, but it gets me through life, keeps me honest and makes me money.

Not sure why you're asking me, told you I wasn't wearing that particular hat. All I can do is offer a common sense-ism there as well. I can understand them not taking the stance of suggesting categories. Going down that road would lead to having to offer that as a service to everyone, lest they be accused of favoritism, create more work, etc. I'd said that I wasn't sure, but thought they were pretty firm on that. I can see that it also could lead to one Linden saying it fits here and another Linden acting on a flagging unaware and creating a bigger mess Agreed that categories need more fine tuning, you may have missed that, so at times we know it can get subjective until that's worked out a bit more. So, we could talk about improving that overall, or continue nitpicking over a single support incident and make martyrs. Would like my turn as a martyr though, haven't worn that particular hat yet and I hear it has its perks. Who knows, he may get an exception yet. Not a Linden so can't tell you how that will play out. Perhaps Toy is right and LL actually likes this style of feedback.

Indeed it is. Glad you caught that signature, it's a reminder to myself as well.

So you're just back for told you so and sparring, got it. That would be part of the obfuscation process.

So, while the parental thing is cute, there may be valid reason why I won't go into that. Still believe reading too much into every sentence equates to nitpickery though.

Darrius Gothly wrote: Okay son .. now ya gone and did it.... You state "I believe that they're conservative with their feedback for various reasons." Okay, accepted. Except for one important point you keep blindly ignoring. Those reasons are the wrong reasons, and the outcome to their conservatism is more negativity. That behavior has been shown, over and over again, to be the worst possible response. So fine, they do what they do because they have "various reasons". Well it's long past the time for those reasons to change. You state "I believe I called that one right,..." referring to being M's cheerleader. No, no and .. oh yeah .. NO! M hadn't the slightest clue who we (his paying customers) were. He set about changing the philosophy and psychology of Second Life to suit his mistaken impression, and HAD we sold it ... I'm damn sure SL would be even worse off today. If there has been a director-level personality at Linden Lab more wrong about how to make SL succeed than M Linden, I don't know them. (And I seriously doubt there has been one.) I seriously doubt that we were basing opinions based on the same data, or lack thereof. But, like I said, that was yesterday and not worth the debate.

In the context of commerce this conversation would last about 30 seconds around a conference table, no matter what the issue. Reason for that, heheh.

True, one thing that does impress me greatly are SL Merchants who are on their game with customer support. They put many companies to shame. Good to see some community dev input too without needing to force feed those qualifications @Brooke: nice to see the one thread as a sticky. Belated thanks on the Mesh/Merchant docs on the wiki, very easy to follow for customers as a reference, I think.

I don't believe they're playing games, I believe that they're conservative with their feedback for various reasons. Responding mostly to your methods, because the manufactured ones detract from others issues. Doesn't help when you throw the made up things in there, as there's no shortage of "real" feedback that needs to get noticed. I don't do the good cop thing any longer. Long boring story if you're referring to that as a reputation. During the "M" era, there were some good moves that depended on it being sold and sold hard by the community, so the idea was to generate some positive energy to pull that off, and it needed advocating. I believe I called that one right, as we see what happened when that didn't sell. Had we sold it, we'd be sitting on a larger SL I believe, but that's yesterdays news, and that set of goals no longer apply. So right, but here's a point. Personally I miss office hours, I think the opportunity to get some face time was a great thing. The problem is, I have no ammunition to make a case to bring them back, because the very kind of behavior I was talking about here makes an office hour useless as feedback. That's why we lost them in the first place. So, still an optimist, but not a very good cop, I'm afraid.

Something is wrong, agree with you on a few points for the second time in two days. I partly joke that west coast companies need to move to the east coast to grow up, we tend to be all about production and polish. Sometimes I put the blame on not enough resources rather than the failing of dev process, it helps digest the food while reading forums. Do agree on the fact that there "used" to be a cultural failing, not sure if that's true any longer. If it is, it does indeed need to go. Was sharing with someone the other day that there needs to eventually be a slick, polished, pro toolset and a treatment of Merchants as pro's regardless of pro/non pro status of Merchants. Agree that much of that needs to be built to Merchant specs, and to tap into that input rather than be driven by so many internals and monetization. That follows after. From here to there will mean getting past Direct Delivery, though, as everything else ties in, I would imagine.

Always agree with the need to keep the overall value of the market up. That's not an elite standpoint, it's important for the person just enjoying themselves and putting freebies on the Marketplace. Intimately and painfully aware of what happens to an overall market that degrades by undercutting and free/low cost items gaining domination. That's a really hard one to juggle if you're trying to stay out of the market, granted. But giving lowest cost top billing isn't the way to go, surely.

So adding to the formula I mentioned a couple posts back, also depends on A) Obfuscation, B) Verbosity, C) Jumping to other topics when the conversation gets very close to fact and clarity, in that order. As I stated elsewhere I also believe communication needs to improve. I mean this whole hacker with a heart of gold exposing security flaws for the good of everyone thing, sounds like a rather noble tact at first, but again this isn't that, it's manufactured and does not help. You say you can deal with endless issues, but bring up non issues and then turn around and create your own falsehoods. Direct Delivery is vapor? Wondering what place you pulled that one out of, assure you that's a reality. So while you go on with your little revolution about shaming and blaming, embarassing and making Lindens grovel and admitting to perceived lies, might want to consider that if your riot consists of burning down your neighbors businesses, you're not any bigger than the "problems" you're trying to solve. Yesterday for instance should not have happened like it did with login problems before it was announced and identified. I still don't see a final resolution on the status. Was it or wasn't it finally resolved? Reporting in the Marketplace is a mess. We could use some features that have been gone over many times. Development is slow. So yes, agree on most common points like every other merchant. My point is that the games you're playing to prove your point is not helping communication. If you can't be bigger than the problem, you're part of the problem. Open dialog can work, and should work. It doesn't work when you don't silence the people playing silly games to make their points and let cooler heads prevail. [Edited: typo and under-caffinated wording]

@Pam, thanks .... good one. @Toy, nice to kind of agree for a change, heheh. The irony is that if each of us were to whip up a terse bulleted list of features/fixes/improvements for commerce, they'd probably be very similar. I chalk much of it up to timeframes and a mis-match of expectations.

Well, you're pointing to 3 issues, delivery, which as pointed out is rather a non issue in the face of delivery undergoing an overhaul. Except for things that can be worked with in that very detailed overview you got about what constitutes a failed delivery, and a variety of solutions to try by other merchants. So filing that one under dead horse. If I thought there might actually be a willingness to compromise and accept input about category problems, I might say to start a thread discussing what categories issues Merchants would like to see addressed if you want to poll for some input as step 1. Step 2 would be to put that in a Jira, along with what other Linden input you may receive along the way, and see how that goes for a bit while we discuss some other equally important issues. Step 3 as a work-around in the meantime would be to re-organize your problematic products into something that does more easily fit into a clearly defined category. Maybe waiting more than 24 hours on a weekend before passing something off as a support failing. Although, if memory serves, I thought there was actually a response about how they wouldn't take a stance on telling you upfront about which category to place your product? Unfortunately you'll have to bite it on that one. Flagging? Agree there are some rough edges there. If you'd care to start a thread suggesting how that process might be improved, without the innuendo and cruft, I'm all ears.

I do agree that it shouldn't take yelling and screaming to get a bug fixed. I do agree that bug fixes and the communication process needs improving. I also think part of the solution on LL's part is to not only improve communication, but to reward good behavior, not bad behavior. In the context of bugs and merchants, that can be casual, but should reflect the nature of Merchants and business in general. Because Merchants do understand their businesses very well, and are intimate with their issues, that means a certain degree of professionalism. How seriously do you want to be taken? Be that, and you stop perpetuating part of the problem.

Got a bunch of ancient bugs I'd like to see fixed myself. I know when an issue does get attention, it may gain some traction as you see happening here. Some bugs, somewhere, somehow get fixed or so I hear. This one is actually nice to see as one of those. And professionally speaking, you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Laugh away, it's really helping the process of improving that communication and that process.

Especially when the contradictions are manufactured, as they generally are. A is a lie because I say it is, therefore A and B conflict. Story of the internet, from Usenet to forums to blogging. Got to get up earlier in the morning and get more creative to pull that one off, though.

Since I'm babbling and wasting space, one last thing, I promise. Whoever revamped that login screen? Give them some serious love if you still do that sort of thing. It looks great, it's about time you guys realized full screen screenshots are not at all sexy It could use one more slider bar, for new products though, hint, hint.

So, sorry for babbling, but I'm looking through Facebook and not finding a dedicated Facebook Marketplace space. Wouldn't it make it easier to pipe all the Marketplace information into a dedicated space and make use of all Facebook features? An account, business, group over there? Not familiar enough with the Facebook API, but I'd imagine that'd let you do much more.