Dartagan Shepherd

Well, if you got Rod to watch this thread, here's my L$2 on some of the subjects in your rant ... To some extent, I agree with you about certain flaws, but before we get to that, a couple things should be pointed out. First, that software update details usually aren't announced until after the fact. Secondly, in many, many cases bugs that aren't found in development often aren't found until they're released. Not that some of this reporting bug shouldn't have been caught, been trying to harp on the value of reporting lately. Or that the ANS should have been caught, they could have adapted the tool Darrius provided into a unit test which catch this kind of thing. Generally the above points are a given though. What I do agree with, is that the community should be far more involved in the process from the very beginning, before Lindens make up their minds on what ideas they're going to implement, not after the fact when we can only suggest small features on top of things, or report bugs on features they've already decided on. Listening to a recent podcast by Charlar Linden brought to remembrance a couple of points that are true of any tool that allows users to create something with, which was that 1) Users will use your tools in ways that you didn't predict or expect and that 2) Users are more intimately familiar with the tool than the developers of the tools. That said, going under the assumption that the Lab still operates with small, mostly autonomous teams, which make product design decisions. Bad idea. The reason is that they will often make decisions among themselves, and possibly other Lindens that chip in with feedback, but not properly analyze user feedback. This results in the misfires that we've experienced for years in SL, which is a disconnect in the fixes and features users ask for, and features that LL implements which are often the wrong features, or the right features and fixes in the wrong order. An example from earlier today, I'd suggested a way of merging marketplace and in-world products in a way that would make it more attractive to own land and have an in-world store, in a way that would increase land sales, revive in-world sales and make malls a viable venture once again. This can't happen because it's not really compatible with direct delivery. Because we weren't brought into the process early enough to possibly come up with a better solution than direct delivery and the team came up with it on their own, effectively outside of user input. To fix this, what we need are product managers (and not very many are needed, more than one product manager can be over multiple LL products) who are outside of these development teams, gathering both user and team feedback, and then blending them into a list of tasks to be done, which are then pushed down to the development teams, with deadlines. These product managers need to be aware of the above points that I mentioned groking from the Charlar podcast. To accomplish that, we need more extensive User Groups and discussion (more than an hour or so a week, or bi-weekly, or monthly) in order to give time for these ideas to form, as one users inspires a better idea from the second user and so on, until ideas mature and become ready for implementation. This of course requires a staff large enough to put in that face time, and less of a reliance on a few employees to come up with these ideas which are more in the interests of the company, and not necessarily of its users. This explains why LL can pump out lots of work, new features and still have flat numbers. For this to even be feasible, user input needs to be guided but not hindered in good parental fashion. In your case, tone means everything. If you want respect, you've got to have a respectful tone and even tempered feedback once you do get those ears, otherwise it's a bust. I know it's great sport to criticize the Lab and their blunders, but at some point that needs to give way to dialog that works, in a company that knows how to optimize and use it. So there needs to be a clear dividing line of where one stops and the other begins. [Edited, minor cleanup]

Out of food at the moment, sorry.

On this, I'm completely behind you. Hadn't realized that you provided an ANS tester for them. Thank you for that as well. Deep breaths, bud.

Has nothing to do with your little conspiracy theories, like I've been saying, issues are real and obvious enough without conspiracies. Conspiracy just takes away from real issues. This is a real issue. You didn't predict it any more than anyone else who expected some sort of mess and got it.

Stock prices begin to go down as extended delays keep tens of thousands of merchants from their earnings this morning. Meanwhile, there are rumors surfacing about the return of independent markets. Merchants have expressed concern about the recovery of the economy. Leading economists suggest that eliminating the 5% tax will help grow the economy once again, as will decreased costs on retail land. Sorry, just having fun while waiting. The tax comment is just for you, Toy Part of that was serious economic suggestion though.

Will reserve a proper opinion until the news comes out, but just to add to the impending announcement. On the one hand it creates a level playing field. On the other hand we all get 4% now? And this will be extended to everyone getting the same reduced rates in the Atlas program? Trading volume for the SLM is holding steady this morning as investors wait for official reports from SLM. Misplaced news of a stimulus package, it's here somewhere.

Let me make this simple. Lack of anything resembling an indicator of anything. Lots of words that point to nothing but vapor and coincidence. As in anything at all. The dots you're connecting don't form a picture, not even one of those you have to stare at for a while before you see it.

Ah, the machinima. Beats the Flickr pic of the day as filler. Focusing on what users are doing, rather than reports about what LL is accomplishing, seems to be the current trend. Distracts from questions like why $1k + $300/month doesn't buy you a dedicated multi-core server for a region, too!

Madeliefste Oh wrote: Pamela Galli wrote: /me wracks brain to remember which Linden I am... I guess you are one of those Linden merchants who have identified so much with their alt, that they just forgot their official Linden name. You probably never used it for logging in to SL. This in fact makes you not a Linden with a merchant alt, but a merchant with a Linden alt. We call her muggle when she's not there. Not to her face, because she's always carrying this blood stained ruler around. Thanks for explaining search, by the way. Now if we could just convince everyone how it all makes perfect sense!

Heheh. Finally found my nameplate, Inept Linden. I don't know who keeps moving these things around our cubicles, but it's no fun trying to figure out where to sit after every trip to the bathroom.

No one can do that well selling houses and kitchens without being one of them. I've also heard you complain about search. You probably don't have a premium account, either. Are you one of them or not? Confess! The innocent act does not fool us.

Linden alt products show up better in search too. A tip-off is to look for the alt's that are always going on about how bad search is. The worst one has SEO in their signature.

Linden hanging tree ... yes. Of course you're probably a Linden too. There's a product in the making. A series of Linden and Linden-alt abuse products would do well for some merchant, I think. Going to start wtih Dakota Linden if she doesn't get her butt back in here. Note to Dakota ... sorry for those previous comments a couple of weeks back, wasn't directed at you ... put it in context with these posts here and it may become clear. Hoping Dakota is actually a she, but what difference does gender in SL make anyway?

Jeez, you are deadly Now I'm not sure who any of us are. Darrius and I .. eh, we get along more than what lies on the surface I think. We're reincarnations of each others ex-wives, and that makes it difficult. Bad karma "is" an ex-spouse. Tired of coding though, ugg yes ... need to get back to that. I've got customers that are going to lynch me at the nearest hanging tree if I don't stop talking on forums and working more.

Heheh, maybe you should catch some of the re-runs from our celebration yesterday of the 10th anniversery of 9-11. The rest of the world gets that yes sometimes we're obnoxious, but that's part of what makes us great. Sometimes we're blunt to a fault, we fight hard, we love harder and deeper. We're passionate to say the least. Kind of like how people like to paint residents of SL. But ... when I need personal advice on this, I'll ask my mother. My wife gives it to me with both barrels though, and she's much better at it. And she actually knows me well enough to do that, but thanks anyway.

Again, nice try. Not nearly as upset as you think. We New Yorkers have a blunt way of speaking sometimes, doesn't mean we're pulling our hair out. I think if you weren't just trying to jump in the middle of this as some type of mediator, you might have started out with something more like, I don't believe this is trolling because there's something to this and here's why and then present some more tangible evidence as to why this isn't trolling. You know, like some kind of reality other than 2 + X = conspiracy. Instead you decided to jump in something that again, wasn't directed at you and doing what you accuse me of. Sorry, if you want honesty I don't fall for that kind of manipulation either.

By banning people who are obviously trolling. This is the part where you say out of one side of your mouth that I'm policing the forums and judging people, while on the other side of your mouth you judge me by saying that I'm don't have the right to define a troll for myself or try to point out a trolling problem in the forums. Cute.

Nice try, I'm not trying to police the forums, I'm expressing a bit of mild annoyance with hearing crackpot theories multiple times every single day, out of context, and derailing every...single...thread, and I believe I have a right to do that. And no, I don't have to just not read those posts, I read all of them to stay on top of things, and I've got a right to be honest about my opinion. It's mine. Again, it wasn't directed at you. My temper would be just fine if LL would act like every other company on the planet that respected its users enough to do something about this kind of thing. Hoping that when they find someone to fill the community manager position they have open in LL, they get someone with a clue on how to handle this kind of thing like professionals. Consider it an anti LL rant, that should make you happy.

Give me a break, you're the one treating these forums as your own personal sounding board, It has nothing to do with merchants, business or even reality in my book. It takes more than some whacky logic that multiple things go wrong therefore this indicates some kind of equally whacky conspiracy theory. Just about every person that's held a job knows that some days it seems that everything is conspiring against you and nothing goes right. It's no different here in SL. I've had this happen more times than I can count and so have other people inside and outside of SL. You can't prove it because it doesn't exist that anyone knows of except for you. I know of Lindens and ex-Lindens that have businesses here and I have yet to see any of them that seem to have some unfair advantage over any other merchant. Sure they might be able to sit down with, or contact a Linden buddy from work and get an answer sooner than some resident going through support. Big deal. Unless you have something more than "oh my god, 2 things happened at once therefore there's a pattern!". Some numerology is just as whacky as your theories simply because there are patterns in numbers. Most of the time it doesn't mean anything. We don't live our lives in business looking for conspiracy. It doesn't sell product, it doesn't market product, and in your case, you're not one step further to producing anything credible than when you started this. In fact, I'm tempted to believe that any problems you report weren't problems in the first place, they were issues you intentionally knew about, didn't feel like fixing like everyone else and then went on as if they were problems. You've destroyed any shred of credibility at least with me that you might have had. Oh, look I rapid fired the synch boxes page and noticed that warning to wait a few moments. I think I'll intentionally turn that into a problem. That's about the extent of what I'm getting out of all this. Not all of us were born yesterday, or are less intelligent than yourself.

There have been at least in the past Lindens who have also been merchants. Some residents and merchants have become Lindens. There are also ex Lindens who are merchants currently, including one that develops a game here in SL. You need to get over it already, while not advertised it isn't a secret but neither does it need exposing, it's already known. No one really wants to hear this nonsense, you need to come to terms with that. It helps no one, accomplishes nothing, convinces no one of any conspiracy. If you honestly believe there is one, in which a Linden is participating in wrongful or unethical behavior, which I don't believe you do, then report it. Many Lindens have said that if any resident believes this sort of thing is going on to contact them ... this also has never been a secret. Even Rod has said this, so contact him and quit polluting the forums with this crap. It's old, it's tired and it's bogus. We have real issues and feedback that don't include loving the sound of our own voices.

True, and merchants know that people often don't read On the other hand, good support is priceless and something that many people have said and still say is lacking in SL. Not in the commerce section, however. And ... LL can afford it. Rumor says they can afford lots of free food for employees, I think they can swing a solid support system. $75M leaves plenty of wiggle room to re-invest in its users via support, more staff and better tools. Of course utility companies can afford better support too, contrary to the whole cost cutting logic. But, it keeps comptrollers and India in business.

Missed your comment on this yesterday .... no, absolutely no problem with support referring people to the forums for help, my take was always the opposite that the first answer should be to get people to file a ticket as that's the surest way to get a quick "right" answer the first time around, or to RTFM and then contact support. Saves time and guesswork. These forums may actually be mentioned in the KB as an information/help source, didn't go look. In a way it's actually a compliment if support thinks that merchants help merchants, although we can't do it as well or as quickly without the ability to look up what's happening with accounts. Commerce support has greatly improved over the last months, and I'd continue to point people to support and docs for for first string definitive answers, and that mostly to save on guesswork, repetition and eliminating the obvious as the first step. Not a big deal in any case. If people get their issues resolved, it's working.

Wasn't directed at you, they were clearly general statements. See how this gets personal really quickly? That in itself proves a point.

TrinityLynn Skye wrote: So putting in a ticket did nothing at all because when they finally got to it all they did was send me back here to attempt to fix the problem. I have been a merchant on the Marketplace for 6 years. I have never had an issue before now. In a ticket they told you to come to the forums specifically, rather than an answer or pointing you to the wiki and not telling you that if docs didn't solve it, to file another ticket? Is that accurate? Really surprised at this, from what I understand commerce support has been outstanding for most people lately for solving magic box issues.

Good example, and I've seen exactly that in a beta! Entirely different and mature atmosphere in the beta programs. That is until some decision is made that seems a bit over the top and then it starts resembling something the forums here. That's understandable. I think what I'm trying to get at isn't that "complaining" is bad, but rather hmm .... feedback that's not positive isn't complaining at all, it's just feedback. It's not really complaining until people try to unite that into some unified voice, and even that's ok ... but then it turns into this thing that "you're for us or against us". At that point you can kiss a community of merchants goodbye, because the main purpose turns into trying to squeeze LL. At that point, people who have no problem start to get insulted and put into a box of "not one of us". You're either with us, or you're not a thinking person and now your entire logic must be defended. God forbid like one person the other day eluded that if it's that bad for you, leave. Even though leaving would be the loudest course of action, and most effective for all parties if you want to be honest about it. But now the popular argument is that we complain because we love SL. And I get that too, I really do. When the context is either complainer of cheerleader, and there are people that will ALWAYS take an angle that puts people into one of those boxes, it becomes something less than honest feedback. This is fake, and I think taking that people who harp on that kind of division are hucksters selling hair tonic off the back of a wagon. And ... it's weird. Let people have their opinions good or bad. They don't have to be complainers or fanbois or pro or con or anything but a person with an opinion. My take is that these forums are for any topic relating to commerce in SL, and related topics like virtual goods, etc. Watch it closely and you'll see what I mean, take away those labels and divisions and you have just people with opinions. And those people will get along much better no matter how much they agree or disagree. My gripes now as a non advocate are the same views that I've always had but wouldn't express because I thought I'd be adding fuel to an already strange thing we have going on sometimes in SL. Giving ammunition to trolls, etc. I place all the blame on a greedy and clueless LL board that in spite of flat numbers can't seem to grasp that it's time to stop monetizing and get rid of this work culture that equates to coloring books in a day care center. Hire some product managers over these departments, rate their performance based on customer satisifaction and writing software, because on their level, SL is nothing but virtual worlds software. The money will naturally follow, because that's the secret sauce of SL, when people are happy, hyped and excited about the possibilities, it goes viral and people come here in droves. Primarily to make a buck as the biggest draw, secondarily to be creative, thirdly for socializing, fourthly for pixel bumping and hooking up with each other. I think my "complaining" has as much bite as anyone elses, and yet ... I'm not complaining. If they don't get it together in the next year I may not consider it worth more years of my life waiting for that to happen. It's just feedback and opinion. It's not us vs. them, it's not cheerleader, fanboi, complainer and I certainly don't need to constantly convince people who are already complaining about the value of complaining. It's this kind of weirdness that makes me not recommend people to SL more than anything else. Makes me want to go back to advocating though