Carole Franizzi

Well, since you’re not the president of any kind of civil rights movement, and since the last I heard you were a elf, not a shemale (who I thought were human), gender-confused and not a transgendered anything (actually, I’m pretty sure you specified bisexual male with a strong preference for females in that last loooooooooooong discussion we had), and – get this – since I didn’t even read any of your posts in this thread in order to avoid getting sucked into more endless discussions, why, oh, why do you feel I was talking about you??? Or are you upset because Auntie Carole didn’t answer one of your posts and you think she doesn’t love you anymore. Auntie Carole was avoiding you like the plague so as to avoid having one of our mega-discussions, but she still loves you to bits. Interesting point you might want to stick in your pipe and smoke. One of my alts is a shemale, sometimes male. That makes me an SL gender-bender too. The “just”, in this case, would refer to my personal experimentations in gender-swapping and me not being elevated to the status of official spokesperson for TG people in RL, SL or on the Moon. Doncha think? I’m sticking to my guns about SL “activists”, “spokespeople” and “experts”. Let me see your credentials first THEN I’ll treat you as what you claim to be.

Maybe the colour of your hair was the exact same colour as her mother’s who had walked out on her when she was only baby to run off with a handsome gypsy who stole her heart and then, later, all her money, leaving her utterly destitute and hence easy prey for a gang of white-slavers who sold her to a sheik who imprisoned her in his harem until she lost her good looks and then threw her out to wander alone, lost, in the desert, saved from a terrible death at the last minute by a compassionate Berber tribeswoman who taught her all her skills in rug-making and who, on falling blind, was supported by her mother, who felt the weight of the debt of gratitude, until the old lady’s death. Then and only then, did her mother return to her, but 40 years had passed and the beautiful shade of hair was replaced by white, living on only in the memory of the child…until you walked into her sim… In other words, gawd only knows why people can be snippy, snide, aggressive, rude, pains in the neck and other areas. You’ll go crazy trying to figure out what makes people tick in here. Count your blessings if you think you’ve figured out what gender they really are. Don't worry about it. Just ignore and enjoy the nice bits.

Madelaine McMasters wrote: Carole Franizzi wrote: Madelaine McMasters wrote: Carole, I'm gonna toot my own horn here. You and Ima are right, but I used fewer words to say it!  Scylla Rhiadra wrote: It's one's performance, not one's labels, that interest me. And I replied: Yep but, as in the Olympics, shouldn't degree of difficulty figure into the score? Oh, hey. You were being waaaaay too metaphorical for me. I only understand Haikunese these days. Had you written it like this, then maybe I’d have got it. I do not come here To make life easy for you I come here to be I learned at the TooDeeLoo Caribou School of Haiku, you? Yeah, but no, but yeah But don’t blame me if I think yer talkin’ about ice-skating Gerrit? Me, I went to the Vicky Pollard Institute for Oriental Literature...

Madelaine McMasters wrote: Carole, I'm gonna toot my own horn here. You and Ima are right, but I used fewer words to say it!  Scylla Rhiadra wrote: It's one's performance, not one's labels, that interest me. And I replied: Yep but, as in the Olympics, shouldn't degree of difficulty figure into the score? Oh, hey. You were being waaaaay too metaphorical for me. I only understand Haikunese these days. Had you written it like this, then maybe I’d have got it.

Randall Ahren wrote: Carole Franizzi wrote: And then....more or less stopped playing.... I've never even been in-world. I really have no idea why I post here. You're not missing that much. Honest. Though it can be quite fun sometimes. Lots of big-boobed, half nakkid hawt gals cartoons and big muscular dude cartoons. And some animals and stuff. Lots of malls and stuff to buy, too. If you can find a way to purchase Lindens, of course. There are some really pretty places though! Only, they're kind of empty usually... It can all be a bit depressing at times. Believe me, the forums are the permanent residency for a lot of people for a reason.

You know, you have a very valid point there. Since we all know that anybody can claim to be anything in here, I’m not sure I’d totally digest a lecture on the hardship of having to live with racial issues only because the avatar in question sports a black skin. Maybe the operator is white and just role-playing a black rights activist. Maybe the president of SL Movement for the Rights of Shemales is just a randy male trying to get his kicks by having boobs of his own which he can unveil any moment he wants a peek. Maybe the militant MtoF avatar with an operator who claims to be a FtoM TG in RL is an out-of-work 19 year old with a lot of imagination and way too much time on their hands. Maybe even, the lesbian is actually a RL man who is into girl-on-girl stuff!!! The truly dangerous down-side of believing claims to credentials is when they say they’re doctors, counsellors, etc. I think it was Pep who used to repeat “Believe nobody!”. He was dead right. Wonder what happened to old Pep – haven’t seen him around in ages…. So, as you and also the haiku-writing guy said, why should I assume anybody in here is qualified to teach me anything just because they claim they are…and, I would add, why on earth, in a place where people come to relax and get away from their RL crosses to bear, should they feel obliged to bear the burden of educating others by laying their own sufferings on the table? In a video game??? We can see where it got the girl who mentioned her bipolar condition. Insulted. That’s where it got her. To Scylla – in a place where everybody gets to choose their names and their gender and their age and their appearance, maybe we should just pretend to accept whatever label people decide to stick on themselves, without ever questioning it publicly, even when the label in question belongs to a “public figure” (or labels themselves as such). In private we can always draw our own conclusions.

Dresden Ceriano wrote: This is the forum for feedback about the forum. I would've suggested you go to Answers, but considering the fact that you've asked an unanswerable question, I suggest you cut your losses and deal directly with LL to resolve whatever issue you're having... they and/or Paypal are the only ones that can help you. ...Dres Okay.....I'm looking at the name of this forum...and I'm reading General Discussion Forum, so I've evidently got the same glitch as the OP. Or maybe its you who's reading wrong. An unanswerable question unsuitable for General Discussions??? Since when did GD threads have to pass the answerability test? To the OP: the only truly adapt forum for your question would have been the All the Odd Things LL Do To Their Clients, but that one, not surprisingly, doesn't exist. Sorry you're having problems. I ended up using my credit card, but then felt uneasy about it being permanently in a "file" in a site known to have technical slip-ups and ended up removing it and not spending money at all. And then....more or less stopped playing....

Well, since Lolita was the teen character in a book who was the provocative focus of sexual attention of an adult man, maybe Lolita style on an unequivocally adult body (boobs and stuff) is the only way to get away with that fashion choice in a part of cyberspace where minor-looking avatars are not permitted to engage in sexual activities or be in sex-themed sims. Otherwise, you’re asking people to get their heads round the mind-boggling concept of an adult who just happens to look like a minor, dressed in a style reminiscent of a minor, who behaved in an inappropriately sexual way with adults, because you think the style is pretty but has absolutely nothing to do with you wanting to do inappropriate sex stuff with an avatar who just happens to look like as a teeny dressed as an underage literary sex legend but, of course, isn’t. Want a copy of my shape? You can stick all the Lolita style clothes on it that you want – I promise, nobody will ever accuse you of being an underage avatar.

I agree with all your posts in this thread. Yep. Totally. What you said.

Lots of stuff in your ranty and post-ranty thingies was spot on.

Ishtara Rothschild wrote: It's quite simple: Child avatars are prepubescent in appearance, behavior, and clothing. Sexually mature avatars are no child avatars, no matter how many immature features they might have (juvenile "babyface", short stature etc.). If there is any doubt, it's not a child. All other definitions are bullsh!t. Avatars don't have an age and, with the exception of PG lala land, are controlled by legal adults. The only reason that we need to distinguish between child avatars and sexually mature avatars at all are legal limitations, and these laws are only concerned with artistic renditions of prepubescent children. Apparently, it’s anything but simple. You, for example, seem to believe that the sexual age-play ban is limited to pre-pubescent children, when in actual fact, according to LL’s own definition: "Under our Community Standards policy, real-life images, avatar portrayals, and other depictions of sexual or lewd acts involving or appearing to involve children or minors are not allowed within Second Life. When detected, individuals and groups promoting or providing such content and activities will be subject to sanctions, which may include termination of accounts, closure of groups, removal of content, and loss of land or access to land." Isn’t 18 the age when in the USA one ceases to be considered a minor? I’d got the impression that it was US (and specifically California?) legal definitions which were binding in SL. Have I been getting the wrong end of the stick? LL also add: "Participation by Residents in lewd or sexual acts in which one or more of the avatars appears to represent minors (or the depiction of such acts in images, video, textures, or text) is a violation of the Community Standards." Again, not just children, but minors – and even “ appear to represent”. I always took that to mean that if you want to go to sex joints and do sex stuff, to be within the ToS, you need an unequivocally adult-looking (18+) avatar, which might be a jolly good reason to ask oneself if the cutsie-pie pig-tails, ankle socks, braces and lil girl dress are really such wise fashion choices for a naughty night on the town. "Promoting or catering to such behavior or representations violates our Community Standards. For instance, the placement of avatars appearing to represent minors in proximity to "sex beds" or other sexualized graphics, objects, or scripts would violate our Community Standards, as would the placement of sexualized "pose balls" or other content in areas depicting playgrounds or children's spaces" The above seemed to me pretty clear instructions regarding the mere presence of minor avatars (-18) in sex joints. Just being there, or being allowed by the sim owner to be there, seems to me, on reading that passage, a violation of the ToS. But then, maybe it’s me having some sort of reading comprehension crisis. If not, then this whole question is not about residents witch-hunting, but about LL forbidding and some people wanting to push boundaries.

Oh no! It only seems tired because I forgot to put the pretty little asterisk thingies in between!

You're doing it wrong. It's supposed to go downwards. Sure... Once, Maybe twice. See?

You touch on a sore point with your question. I've NEVER been stalked! Not once! Even though a heap of people know my RL info!!!! What the heck is that all about? What has a gal gotta do to get stalked round here??? I'm sooooo jealous...

It's probably not something I've lost too much sleep over, to be honest. If person #2 has just explained the theory of relativity but, in his rush, spelled it relutivity, chances are that person #1 has to pick on the spelling because he hasn't the means to make any intelligent reply to something he doesn't understand. But when that happens, most people are well aware of what's going on, so it's really just person #1 shooting himself in the foot. On the other hand, if a person notes he's being constantly picked up for his grammar, spelling - and let's not forget punctuation - he might want to question whether he's fully comprehensible or not. Hardly worth posting if nobody understand what you're trying to say. Re: ESLers - it's usually clear when somebody is having some problems because English is not their native tongue and a little patience is the minimum courtesy which should be extended. However, maybe sometimes, it might be wise to recognise that the level of language being used by the majority is way above your own skills. Personally, I would think twice before subjecting native French speakers to my icky French in a French discussion forum. I wouldn't expect them to dumb down the language to make it accessible to me. N'est pas?

Whereas, <> I love <> threads in which <> hate-mongers declare they hate <> hate-mongers, <> trolls scream that they’re not <> trolling, <> the prejudiced look down their noses <> at those with prejudices different from their own, <> the unofficially unstable berate <> those who had the guts to see a doctor, <> and where <> scorn is poured on those <> who are seen to evoke <> pity <> by those who try to evoke <> pity <> as defence for their attack, <> and, as long as contain your words in a reply to someone else, <> you can name-call, insult and offend <> all you like. <> But most of all, <> I love <> haiku-posting. Yay! (That’s fun!)

Imagine reading this…. “Black people are different from white people no matter how much some want them to be equal. Should a biology teacher be accused of racism simply because he teaches children about the inequality of the biology of black and white races? Just because a few million blacks were enslaved against their will, raped, beaten and killed during the slave-trade, why try to stop some black people from selling themselves if they need the money? Yes, okay, in lots of places blacks are still being kidnapped, sold and brutalised - even young children - but why let that cast a shadow on the purchasing of black people in areas where it’s been decriminalised? Racial equality activists want to take away the freedom of choice of blacks who want to sell themselves to pay debts and they victimize them by insisting that they must be victims, and seek to deprive them of their own opinion on the matter as well as their right to sell themselves, because many black people actually really enjoy selling themselves. Blacks should be allowed to keep selling themselves because often their only alternative is cleaning toilets. Biology and related sciences are inevitably racist and politically incorrect, because that's what nature is. Blacks are either work mules or studs – har! har! Aren’t I funny?” I hope that sounds appalling to you. I hope you manage to finally hear what it is that offends me so – for the exact same sentiments, but about women, are contained in your posts. I hope…but I’m not holding my breath.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: so, only attractive avs are allowed.. i shall be sure to no come visiting then. I have been told many times that non-humans are not attractive. so i will stay away. kinda sucks though.. mheh. I would like to point out one thing though.. not all men are sexual beasts that get aroused by two lines on a piece of paper. I, for one, need a bit more than pixels. i am more of a hands on type of guy, my hands on her body. And to Carole.. Should you ever find yourself looking for a realistic beast to spend time with, look me up. Sorry Ishy, but this is SL, your world your imagination and all that. If someone is going to be banned for looks alone then you are more shallow than i ever imagined. I have seen Avatars of all shapes and sexes sitting and talking around a campfire, with no one having an issue. Ever stop and think that some people dont care what the av looks like? What if one of these "beauties" of yours wanted to boff a big burly werewolf that you just banned? just my $.000005 L ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, you’re okay with your beastie avie. Beasts, demons, dogs, wolves, marble statues, blow-up dolls, elves etc., I suspect, are all welcome there. Apparently, it’s all to do with genetics and anthropology – so, marble statues are acceptable because our ancestors liked to do it with rocks and women find effeminate elves a big turn on because… erm… I guess that, at some point in our past, there really were effeminate elves (yeah, I know, it’s all new to me too). Anyway, don’t worry about it. Ishtara will fill you in. I wouldn’t mention to him about needing more than a cartoon and a couple of typed lines though. Or that some people don’t even look at avies. He thinks all men and all women work in the same way and you’ll mess up his theories. Anyway, your kind offer was noted. I’m not playing SL at all these days but if/when I get back into it, I’d be happy to spend time with a “big beastie” who looks beyond the avatar illusion.

Ishtara: And is it really so hard to imagine that some women work in this area because they simply enjoy sex? Carole: Yes. Ishtara: Ah, there is the crux of the matter. (I mean, aside from the tendency of women to condemn "loose women" for lowering their own chances at finding a mate -- after all, those 10 or 20 guys who hook up with the town bike are less likely to buy a whole cow -- and for enabling their existing mates to get some milk on the side without much effort). You personally find this occupation icky, and that's why nobody should get to work in this area. Carole: “town bike”??? “buy a whole cow”???? You might want to re-examine that claim that you’re not a chauvinist.... You’re going to have to take my word on this – I would not want a mate who viewed women in such a way. The “loose women” are welcome to him. They have my commiserations. Seriously, Ishtara, that last passage revealed exactly where you’re coming from. It is indeed the crux of the matter. I don’t find prostitutes “icky” – I see them as vulnerable human beings that life has been terribly hard on. What I find “icky” (read: utterly revolting) is the attitude of their clients who see them as sub-human and treat them as such, whether in a legalised or criminalised context. Your attempt to present yourself as a liberal-minded man who’s simply claiming that women have the right to love sex as much as men (and make money out of it, if they so wish) just went up in jaw-droppingly sexist smoke. You, not me, see prostitutes (and women in general) as something of lesser worth than yourself. I think nobody should be allowed to work in this area because there’s the high risk that they have to deal with men who share your own view of them. Because when men think like you do, women have the tendency to end up getting hurt. No wonder my Carole avie bothers you – she doesn’t conform to the image of women as instruments to be used for your pleasure.

Eloise Baily wrote: Nuu Carole not at all. Ishtara is Spock-like in his analysis if things that he doen't get about the human condition, we all know that. We also know that the things he does get are not often what the rwest of us get. However.. ..I still think that Ish posts intriguing posts and I believe that they are when something inside him goes *ting* and are not posted for publicity purposes alone. Of course, there is a bit of that, but isn't that why any of us post? I get where you're coming from, and I want to slap Ishatara with a wet fish regularly, as long as I can just spin round and slap you too at the same time. Oh, I have a huge soft spot for Ishtara. Fine brain. A delight to get into a posting debate with. I don’t entirely agree with your Spockish analogy, though. (He won’t mind us discussing him in public, will he?) Don’t start with that game again! I keep telling you – I’m not in the wet fish slapping scene! PS I’m now an expert in the sex trade (after all the reading up had to do) – question is, can I make use of this mountain of newly acquired knowledge at the next dinner party I get invited to by dropping interesting facts and figures in as conversation starters?

Do we win a prize?

Eloise Baily wrote: /me steps out of the dust coughing. Where the hell did THAT come from! note to self: Look both ways before heading into a stampede They were written on a Wurd document, innit? Wasn't no way I could have replied in one sitting (plus pc is being a bit of a slow stinker - i risk losing stuff because it freezes). That's why three big uns got dropped on you sudden like. (why am I talking common, like? Musta had enuff of talkin posh to Ishtara and trying to sound intelechewal).

Eloise Baily wrote: /me kicks Ishy and Carole up the arse because I want to read about what's ugly dammit and I quite simply can't be arsed to read through it all to find out when I need to start scrolling through this shouty stuff. Jeebuz, can I haz valium nao? Shor t version - Ishtara thinks old women avatars (and middle-aged, I fear), the sick and unsightly shouldn't be on his sim (and I think maybe he thinks they shouldn't be on any sex sim at all). I disagree in principle though aware every sim owner has the right to choose. Jeez! That IS it - in three ruddy lines! Wot a waste of time!!!!!!!!

Ishtara: Of course these avatars are controlled by legal adults. I'm not trying to protect anybody when I ban a child avatar (and I'm extremely lenient with my definition. I'd never complain about an adolescent, 14+ looking av). The only thing that I'm protecting is the sexualized atmosphere of my sim, as well as the mood and enjoyment of other visitors. Someone with the appearance of a pre-pubescent child tends to disturb people in an adult establishment (not to mention that this violates the ToS). Carole: I thought that any avatar which looks to be a minor wasn’t permitted to be in proximity of sexual activity? Isn’t one of 14, 15 still a minor? You find an adult woman inappropriate because she’s whatever age you consider to be “past it”, yet one who looks 14 standing by while sexual “stuff” is going on is appropriate??? Ishtara: Yes, I'm indeed able to find an avatar sexually attractive, or a cartoon figure for that matter. I might be gender-confused, but I'm still a guy. Which means that I'll find two stylized lines on a piece of paper sexually attractive if they happen to form a female hourglass shape. There is very little that doesn't excite a typical man on some level Nonetheless, I don't find all of my visitors appealing, and I can't deny the fact that I'm mainly attracted to female avatars despite my being bisexual. There are very few men that I find appealing beyond the contents of their underpants (such as Pierce Brosnan and Eric Bana, to name a few). Carrot-shaped, pinheaded Conans are a huge turn-off for me too. So are newbies in ugly freebie skins. But that is not what this is about. Carole: No, it isn’t. I asked if everybody you found unattractive got asked to leave your sim – club and shop. I also asked what was the cut-off age for men and women to be allowed into your sim. Ishtara: I have the feeling that you're deliberately misunderstanding my intent. I'm not trying to enforce my own subjective standard of beauty by banning everyone who I personally find unattractive. Carole: So….who does and doesn’t get asked to leave? Ishtara: I'm not discriminating against older looking avatars. I wouldn't kick out Sean Connery or Bea Arthur, both of which still have sex appeal in my opinion. Let me remind you of the way in which you described your avatar (….) The mental image evoked by these lines (my description of Carole) tells me that you went out of your way to... well, probably not to make Carole controversial and disgusting, but you definitely are trying to make a point and evoke a certain reaction, which happens to be the goal of most artists. But the point that you are making with your av is at odds with the things that people have come to expect from sex locations, especially sex locations in a world where we can change our appearances at will. Carole: Bea Arthur is sexy?? If you say so… You’re aware she probably had veins, moles, saggy bits, etc., etc., like anyone – male or female – at her age? I went out of my way to make Carole realistic. In a hyper-perfected world, I found it more interesting to resist the temptation to improve and to go in completely the opposite direction, by making an avatar which was older and less attractive than me (that wasn’t a vanity moment, just stating an objective fact – Carole is worse, not better than me). That doesn’t make me an artist. She’s just an avie pieced together by buying bits here and there. I’m still finding difficulty in understanding your attempts to rationalise something which you simply don’t like. An elf and a 14 year old kid are appropriate and are to be expected in a sex sim, but an adult human woman isn’t? A Bea Arthur avatar would be welcome, Carole wouldn’t? I’m not deliberately trying to misunderstand you (I genuinely don’t follow your logic). If you don’t like women who are past it, amputees, wheelchair users – just chuck them out and have done with it. It’s your sim – you can do as you please. I think you just want to be told that you’re somehow morally right not to let them stay. Ishtara: You are not trying to be physically attractive, nor are you trying to be accepted for who you are in RL (at least I don't think so). I'm not sure what it is exactly that you're trying to do, other than showing your artistic skills and looking to strike up conversations with people who share your sense of humor and can appreciate a very unique avatar. I'm fine with that, but a sex sim is not really the right place to reenact scenes from Little Britain. Carole: I already pointed out before that it seems to me that not only do you want to keep certain categories of avatars out of your sim, but you keep underlining the fact that an older woman avatar shouldn’t be on a sex sim at all. Whoever the sim belongs to. Unless she’s a Bea Arthur lookalike, of course… Ishtara: In a sex location, you would look as misplaced as a dinosaur avatar or the otherwise gorgeous Johnny Depp in his Mad Hatter or Edward Scissorhands getup Carole: Yep, because elves in sex clubs look really well-placed… Why are you using the conditional? I have told you several times that Carole has been to sex sims all over the grid and I can’t think of a single occasion when she was asked to leave. Ishtara: That is my entire point in this thread. Your hurt feelings over my comments, after you yourself descrived how you deliberately rendered Carole anything but attractive, remind me of furries or child avatars who complain about being banned from themed clubs and RP sims. They haven't been discriminated against, they merely weren't dressed for the occasion. Carole: Forgive me if I say so but I get the impression that the entire point of your thread is to find moral support for your decision to chuck out some guy with a colostomy bag or some such, because burdened by the moral dilemma of putting of your business interests over the interests of categories of people whose rights to sexual expression you were defending a short time ago - wondering if the poor schmuck with the colostomy bag is just some poor soul trying to come to terms with the prospect of having to pass the rest of his life with the ruddy accessory thanks to bowel cancer. My feelings are not hurt. I don’t have bowel cancer. Nor am I an old lady. Nor am I ugly. However, if I had had bowel cancer, was an old lady or was ugly, I’d object to it being implied that I didn’t have the right to sexual expression. Puh-lease don’t go down that other well-worn sexist path too – implying that a woman can’t support an issue out of principle, but speaks out only in reaction to being hit where it hurts – her emotions. I’m fonder of rational debate than you could imagine and I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this exchange, these topics and the fascinating reading up that it obliged me to do. Sorry it took so long to reply but I’ve only been able to dedicate snippets of time to answering you.

Ishtara: The women who work in these establishments, or run their own business from home, are typically women who choose to earn considerable amounts of money and retire at age 40 rather than slave away in a badly paid office job until they hit 65. There are also many students, similar to college-age strippers in the USA. Student loans are easily available and nobody needs a job in order to finance their academic studies, but a job as a sex worker gives students a chance to live in a nice apartment and drive a decent car long before they start to pursue their real career. Carole: You’re telling me that if your sister, cousin, daughter or son (let’s not make it about gender) came to you and told you that they’d got accepted to Brainyfolks University but grumbled a bit about having to take on a student loan, you’d suggest prostitution as an option to avoid running up debts? I’m sorry, but I don’t believe that for a moment. Your profile of the typical sex-worker doesn’t match any I came across when reading up on the subject. NGO reports claim that about 85% of sex-workers in Germany are not German. If they’re in the game simply because they really enjoy it (your theory, further down), I’m perplexed by the fact that apparently it’s mostly poor foreign women who are in it for the kicks. Ishtara: Unlike a minimum wage hairdresser or pedicurist, sex workers can pick and choose their customers (no, I haven't been turned down as of yet ), and it's self-understood that there are regular health checks and that safe sex is a must. I can imagine much worse jobs, such as cleaning toilets, and the payment for those jobs are peanuts in comparison. In the end, it's a job like any other occupation in the service industry, only that it pays exceptionally well for comparatively little time and effort. Carole: I cannot imagine a worse job. I’d rather clean a million toilets. It is absolutely not a job like any other – and the “regular” health checks are an unconvincing drop in the ocean of reassurance. Ishtara: And is it really so hard to imagine that some women work in this area because they simply enjoy sex? Carole: Yes. You’re promoting the exclusion of avatars which are not attractive from sex sims, because not conducive to a sexual mood, right? Therefore you’re claiming that simply having to look upon a digital representation of an unattractive human being is a turn-off no person should be subjected to. If just looking at an ugly avatar is a turn-off, pray tell what do you truly think one would feel when having to actually have flesh-on-flesh intimate relations with someone you find unattractive? Where does the enjoyment you speak about come in?? If they chose to have encounters only with people they found truly attractive, I’m assuming those fantastic earnings you mentioned before would not be pouring down on them. Let’s say it’s safe to assume that most times they manage to put up with it. Some will be utterly revolted inside. Who knows, maybe one in 100, or 1,000, 10,000 or 100,000 really, really loves it. How would you know though? I assume many are very good at faking it. Ishtara: There are even sex workers who have chosen to work with physically or mentally disabled people, such as Nina de Vries. She thinks that this is her calling, and how could anyone argue with that? Ms. de Vries undoubtedly does more good than Catholic missionaries. I find it quite unfair to push these people into the same corner as drug-addicted hookers in countries that criminalize prostitution. Carole: Say what? This whole thread started with you trying to rationalise your discomfort over an avatar with a pixel colostomy bag in your sex sim. Now you’re expressing admiration over someone whom you compare to missionaries because she works with disabled people? Well done, Nina! Just keep the uglies away from my sex sim in SL! Ishtara: Prostitution in Germany is a matter of choice, and it's all but ugly and filthy. It is also worth noting in this context that Germany has a very low number of sex crimes. According to UN statistics, there were 29 cases of rape per 100,000 in the USA in 2009, 23 cases in the UK, and only 9 cases in Germany. I haven't looked into depression and suicide statistics yet, but I bet that there are also less people (especially less men) who commit suicide in Germany. Sex and physical intimacy are important human needs that have all kinds of health benefits. Denying physically unattractive or badly socialized people an active sex life could be deemed a form of discrimination, which perfectly fits the topic Carole: You’re aware that for a prostitute to press charges of rape would be such a harrowing and hopeless task that most (all?) of them don’t bother? So we can safely assume that those statistics don’t include rape when a prostitute is the victim. If rape crimes have gone down since legalising prostitution, what does that tell us about the sort of clients sex-workers are having to deal with? I’m guessing that sort of man isn’t the kind who hires women just to feel less lonely. Sadly (for you), I have to inform you that I did take the time to check statistics. Suicide among German males is higher (per 100,000 people) than in Italy, Greece, Spain, the Netherlands, Thailand. Nice mix of legalised and non-legalised prostitution countries for you, though I should point out that in Europe, the Netherlands has a higher rate of male suicides than Italy, Spain and Greece. If you really want to be in happy-man-land, then you should head for Kuwait, where the rate is only 2.5 x 100,000 – but where even looking at a woman in an inappropriate way could get you into trouble. Deeming the denial of a sexual life to unattractive and socially inept men discrimination does fit the topic perfectly because you want to discriminate against physically unattractive men and women and people with signs of disabilities…. Ishtara: You are the one who brought up religious depictions of torture scenes as an example, probably because you thought that I could hardly disagree with you and call something offensive that is supposed to be "holy". I commented on your example. That's how forum discussions work. Carole: No, I brought up some of the most frequently used themes of the Great Masters and the ones, consequently, most easily spotted at a gallery which houses the highest levels of art. The Great Masters operated in a period of our history in which religious themes were considered the most appropriate for art and were the most lucrative because often commissioned by the Church. I could have suggested other less than pretty, non-Catholic, but very common-place subjects, such as the Rape of the Sabines, the deaths, natural and otherwise, of various famous personages, wars, battles and Rembrandt’s famous “Anatomy Lesson”. Consider them brought up. Thank you for your explanation as to how forums work, by the way.