ImaTest1488314069

nuria Augapfel wrote: ImaTest wrote: nuria Augapfel wrote: Emphasis is mine. This is the exact point many disagree with you,I think. It's the exact point I disagree with you on anyway, well one at least. There is never a need for poor manners, regardless of what is going on, never. If, or I should say when because we all do it, you cross the line and behave poorly with poor manners, it is you(in this case Xavier) that needs to have more understanding, not everyone else around you. We can all probably remember a time, if not current, then in the past, when we behaved poorly and wish we had done it differently. Sometimes some people use those moments as learning tools. An apology for our bad choices, or poor actions, can go a long way. Those of us who are parents raise our children to apologize for their mistakes and misgivings, do we not? Why do we let go of that ideal when it comes to grown adults, who really should know better and should practice what they preach? Ima...I'm not trying to justify the Xavier manners. I already said that he probably was a bit rude or harsh in the notecard (though none of us knows for sure how harsh he was as we have not seen such notecard)...I said as well that probably he could been nicer in the way to contact the OP...but seriously, is that a major reason to create such drama? not in my opinion. Congratulations Deja!!:matte-motes-grin: I'm not trying to argue with you here either, but I'm not sure we define drama the same, to be honest, and it might be a language thing, I don't know for certain. I don't consider a lot, the majority even, of the replies here in this thread to be creating or even contributing to drama. I think it's a pretty good discussion and not only can we all learn better ways ot deal with things like this, but also that we CAN communicate pretty well here, for the most part. Even healthy discussions can be fuled by emotion. Emuna's original post did not name Xavier. This is one thing that has stuck in my mind this entire thread. He came here to name his own self. Granted I am sure we all understand why he did, he didn't want his own name defamed, and may have thought that's what was happening. But I'm not certain Emuna did defame him when she came here, because none of us knew who she was talking about. Had the name remained anonymous, I'm willing to bet the thread would have gone differently. Another point that sticks out to me is that LL told her to AR him. Surprisingly, as dumb as they might seem at times, they don't often say things like that unless they feel there is a need. If they felt so, then I believe Emuna had every reason to feel the same. There must have been something in that message that was worthy of an AR. Usually when bickering like that happens LL tells you(assuming they tell you anything at all) that they do not involve themselves in resident to resident disputes and they explain how to mute/ignore someone-which is their suggestion. AR-ing isn't a common answer, unless they actually see something worth it. (of course that also doesn't mean the AR will do any good, but the mere suggestion speaks a lot to me). I've been down that road with LL, on both sides of the fence, as the perpetrator of something worthy of an AR, and the victim(I did say I've made similar mistakes in the past, and overstepped). As an aside about the defaming thing, this is another very bad side effect of lists, generally speaking. We know they are usually used for no good, even if the original intent was good. It's entirely possible Xavier looked at Emuna's post as if HE was now on "some list" as it were, or at least being judged harshly by some crowd. Much the same way Emuna felt being told she's "being watched". In fact much the same way most of us might feel, I think very few would think nothing of it. I think this might have been the point some other posters were making about how bad the lists really can be. Maybe he didn't think that at all, I don't know. But I can tell you, putting myself in his exact shoes mentally, making all the same steps he did, all the same statements, that's probably how I'd feel as well. I think it's safe to say plenty of us would.

nuria Augapfel wrote: I really believe that it's quite possible that Xavier were a bit rude and harsh, but i'm convinced that you also could have handled better the situation.There were other options than coming here to write a post...I think that if you would had suffered at some time in your own skin the experience of having your own work copied and distributed by the grid as full perm (wich i'm pretty sure you don't), maybe you would have had a little more understanding about Xavier manners... Emphasis is mine. This is the exact point many disagree with you,I think. It's the exact point I disagree with you on anyway, well one at least. There is never a need for poor manners, regardless of what is going on, never. If, or I should say when because we all do it, you cross the line and behave poorly with poor manners, it is you(in this case Xavier) that needs to have more understanding, not everyone else around you. We can all probably remember a time, if not current, then in the past, when we behaved poorly and wish we had done it differently. Sometimes some people use those moments as learning tools. An apology for our bad choices, or poor actions, can go a long way. Those of us who are parents raise our children to apologize for their mistakes and misgivings, do we not? Why do we let go of that ideal when it comes to grown adults, who really should know better and should practice what they preach? ETA: This is my subtle version of an adult telling a child to "say you're sorry" after he's hit a little boy because someone else hit him first. In other words, two wrongs don't make a right, and hurting someone else because you've been hurt is NEVER the answer. Not that I'm in any sort of authoritative position(or that anyone else is a child), NONE of us hold any sort of authority over one another. The two situations are just about as close to what happened as I can think of at the moment.

nuria Augapfel wrote: Yes...seems that compassion can work here to only one side... That's not true at all. There seems to be plenty of compassion to go around. Not everyone will always have it for everyone else, at all times. That is very much true. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of compassion being tossed about here, in both directions. I think it's being overlooked though.

Ry0ta Exonar wrote: ImaTest wrote: Ry0ta Exonar wrote: ImaTest wrote: He also mentioned earlier on in the thread that if someone didn't do "real investigating" they were simply defending the thief. This. in a response, directly about Emuna, as that's who the poster was defending. So...calling her a thief, and insulting the person defending her in one blow. Not cool. If you are talking about his statement in http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Caught-in-the-Middle/m-p/1700449#M28528 "This system is rigged for the thieves.", I'm afraid you misread that. Nope, I wasn't. Well, then it should be http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Caught-in-the-Middle/m-p/1700323#M28502 where he said " But, until you decide to do some REAL investigating regarding my claims you are doing nothing more than stirring the pot and defending the thief in the process". In this statement he was clearly talking about the avatar who allegedly stole some animators animations including Xavier's, not the OP. His reply there is to someone defending the OP. I came to the conclusion I did because of the entire conversation leading up to that point as well, not just the one reply. It's still an insulting comment, regardless of how one takes it though. We can disagree on what we each think he meant, since he didn't clarify, we're left to our own devices and opinions. I can agree to disagree. I happen to believe it's the sort of statement that lead to exactly what happened, though. It's the sort of thing one says when they're a little too emotional to be responding in the first place. It should have been an indicator(of many) that how you handle things can be construed all kinds of different ways if you're not careful. You being a general term of course. And yes I do realize he's not the only one who responded emotionally. I'm not trying to harp on just him. A lot of my replies are pretty general, I think. I don't know about you, but when I've gone back to read things I've said, or even thought back on them, especially cases when I know I've stepped over the line, I learn from it. I don't continue to defend it, when I know I was out of line, or when someone tells me I have hurt them, regardless of WHY I was out of line. Which is almost always because I was emotional, upset, angry, etc. Like I said, I learn from mistakes, mine, and others. When I know better, I do better. My ideal would be that everyone does, though that's probably not realistic on my part.

Pamela Galli wrote: I agree Nuria. The ppl in this thread who are willing to cut Xavier some slack as well as Emuma are all those who treat SL like a full time job and know that having your stuff copied is like being punched in the stomach. (I don't have a clue who Mr. Alt is.) Is Emuma the only one qualified to get a break, and if so, why? I mean, her response has hardly been a model of cool calm thinking, either -- can you imagine calling LL support AND posting in the forum over something like this? Geez put away the rope. You clearly didn't read what I wrote earlier. Probably because it was far too wordy for most people's liking. I give way more slack than you think. I lived off sl income from 2005 until 20012, completely and utterly. All rl expenses, and sl expenses were paid entirely by my income made here. I know what it's like to feel that punch in the stomach too. That doesn't mean you should automatically handle it poorly though, as I learned from experience. Doing so just puts you in a bad place too. Absolutely people ought to get a break from now and again. Had he not continued with that same manner, and said some of the things he said, I am pretty certain Xavier would have gotten the same break. Me, I think they're both victims, and both deserve a "break". But he, and you apparently, seem to expect Emuna to give him a break, yet he's not willing to offer the same. How is that fair? Pointing out how to better handle something is hardly hanging a man, or woman. It's a great way to prevent it from happening again though. Can't learn from mistakes that don't get made.

Ry0ta Exonar wrote: ImaTest wrote: He also mentioned earlier on in the thread that if someone didn't do "real investigating" they were simply defending the thief. This. in a response, directly about Emuna, as that's who the poster was defending. So...calling her a thief, and insulting the person defending her in one blow. Not cool. If you are talking about his statement in http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Caught-in-the-Middle/m-p/1700449#M28528 "This system is rigged for the thieves.", I'm afraid you misread that. Nope, I wasn't.

nuria Augapfel wrote: ImaTest wrote: This is the exact point I am pretty sure myself, and others, were trying to make. This is why how you handle it matters just as much as the fact that you do handle it. Because it is far more likely you'll do so with heated emotions. This sort of thing, in my honest opinion, is what will separate merchants. Some will always handle things badly. Some will only somtimes handle it badly. Others will always handle it with care. I fit the latter now, though I once fit the middle. Humans are not infallible, we all make mistakes. The difference between adults, and children, is that we are expected to own up to our mistakes when we do make them, or when we realize we have. We're long past the age of innocence and right from wrong is no longer a difficulty.(for the majority of adults, barring something that keeps them from differentiating that is). Some people insist and insist with the idea that Xavier has handled the things badly and seems that some people enjoy judging and blaming this merchant even missing a big part of information. In my opinion the only thing that may have been handled badly by Xavier could be the manners with which he contacted to the OP...let's put that he was harsh on the notecard (which no one here really knows) because he was upset and due lack of experience...is that SOO terrible? ISN'T. Seriously, if you can not show some comprehension for this, get over it. About the list, let's put that was made by the merchants and this list simply includes the names of all the members from the vip group of the thief store, who were customers and potential resellers of the stolen animations. Merchants wants through that list keep an eye to the people that may have in possession their stolen animations to be sure that are not reselling them....is to have made this list have handled things wrong? NO. Should the OP be worried about? NO while she do not sell stolen content. Again, Xavier has clearly stated that is aware that the OP and the other people who bought the stolen stuff are innocent and victims from the thief . Has become clear that all of you would have handled a situation like this a lot better (that sounds good,eh?) but stop crucifying him. No one is trying to crucify anyone else. In fact, that word isn't even applicable here. But if you really want to use it, then Xavier, and you, are just as guilty of it as anyone else. So, let's just call that a wash, shall we. That's simply tit for tat and not a game I really enjoy playing. What's done is done. Clearly there are multiple victims in this. Xavier is a victim, Emuna is a victim, anyone else on that list that may have been contacted is also a victim. No one victim holds any more importance than another. At least, not to me. But none of that changes the fact that we ALL can learn from others' mistakes, and I do mean all.

Pamela Galli wrote: Oh you mean like calling for a boycott? You seem to be and advocate for grace for some, not for others. You explain to me how I called for a boycott first. I explained my stance and explained why, or rather how, his actions could lead to me deciding not to purchase there. I did not call for a boycott, nor did I say people should not shop with him. I think people should make their own decisions and for the most part, most boycotts are done in the heat of the moment without any amount of actual thought behind them. Mine has a lot of thought behind it, which is why I felt the need to explain it. I also explained to him exactly how our own actions and words can and do have consequences, both good and bad. Hopefully when this happens again, because we all know it will, though we try so very hard to stop it, maybe the next person who gets upset(and again, I believe everyone would, I didn't say they shouldn't) might just take time for a breather before reacting and doing exactly what happened.

Medhue Simoni wrote: Now, maybe Xavier could have handled things with the OP better, but I would never question a creator as to whether their creation was ripped or not, especially a mocap creator. Let's also remember that we all have a great attachment to our own work, and to see some1 else copy it from you, and try to sell it, can be heartwrentching. There is much emotion in all this, and when we all get this way, we will respond with that torture in our words, whether we mean to do it or not. We are all human, and not robots, lets hope we all stay this way, but also learn along the way. This is the exact point I am pretty sure myself, and others, were trying to make. This is why how you handle it matters just as much as the fact that you do handle it. Because it is far more likely you'll do so with heated emotions. This sort of thing, in my honest opinion, is what will separate merchants. Some will always handle things badly. Some will only somtimes handle it badly. Others will always handle it with care. I fit the latter now, though I once fit the middle. Humans are not infallible, we all make mistakes. The difference between adults, and children, is that we are expected to own up to our mistakes when we do make them, or when we realize we have. We're long past the age of innocence and right from wrong is no longer a difficulty.(for the majority of adults, barring something that keeps them from differentiating that is). As I said in another thread, when you know better, you do better. You don't continue to defend your poor actions once you're aware of them. That's not going to help things, at all. Having others defend your poor actions will also only compound the problem, and likely create new ones too. That's what happened here. Not only do we have the issue of content theft, but also the issue of dragging others through the mud in the wake of dealing with the crime committed against you. Things like that can cause all kinds of damage. Why anyone would want to compound a problem, make it mutliply and cause all kinds of little brances of problems to start budding, is beyond me.

nuria Augapfel wrote: Ima...i do not have problem about you posting how well you've handled a situation like this and how badly and terrible Xavier did it...You're assuming that Emuna is in some kind of blacklist but A.we do not now if she's really on some list B. even being on a list we do not know who have acces to this list (wich probably it's only managed for merchants and the affected content creators that already know about this issue) To state that she will lose potential customers in my opinion is to fall into drama, while i can accept that probably Xavier could have handled the situation better (with better manners) this do not change the facts: There are some merchants affected by content theft and checking that the people who own their stolen stuff do not put it for sale. We do know she's on the list, Xavier said that's where he found her. We know where the list came from, he said where it came from. We know a group of merchants are "watching her", he said they are. You want people to believe what he's said, yet you're ignoring almost everything he's already posted. Me, I believe him, and I believe everything he's said up until now. Including how he's treated her, how he found her, that he knows she's on a list, etc.. It's not falling into "drama" to state the truth. It IS a fact that when lists, of this nature, are shared at least some people who MAY have otherwise shopped, at some point with that merchant, no longer will. Are you telling me you believe that everyone in posession of that list(and I don't really need to know who all has it, the fact that it exists is scary enough) is going to ignore the names being on that list and shop with those merchants anyway? Do you understand how unreasonable that assumption is? It's a fact that, at least some, will choose to not shop with those merchants. You can deny it all you want, but it won't make it true.

nuria Augapfel wrote: ImaTest wrote: There is absolutely nothing wrong with sending warnings. How you do it, is what matters most and will make or break your case. It's very clear that Xavier has never had to deal with theft before, which is probably a relief for him. Because he very clearly went about it the wrong way. In stating his case here, he's continued, repeatedly, to go about it the wrong way. In fact has only compounded the problem, and created a mountain of problems for others. How you can't see that, and how you can't see his continual sharing of Emuna's name, and perhaps even others since he did admit he got her name from this person's group, is a terrible way to handle things tells me that you too have never had to deal with it. Seriously....the only thing that Xavier made clear is that he warned this person because she had in possession stolen stuff (which she has admitted) and that he and the others designers affected will keep an eye on the people that have their stolen animations to be sure that are not for sale....how terrible is that, eh? Everything else is speculation. There is nothing that hurts Emuna (she came here alone to expose the issue, if not none of us would know about this). Xavier was nice enough as to warn her (probably in a harsh way) but you can be sure that some other wouldn't have said NOTHING about and just would have waited to file a DMCA. I haven't made any speculations at all, actually. I don't think you're reading all the responses as individual ones, but rather as a lump group. Though I could be entirely wrong and you could see something in my words I didn't put there, I'm not really sure. But I know I've made no speculations. I posted a story about how I dealt with a nearly identical situation, because I thought it would be helpful to see how someone else might handle a similar situation. I know it's certainly helped someone else simply because I've spent the last couple hours discussing it with that merchant. Someone who didn't know how to handle theft, and didn't want to go about it the wrong way, after reading this thread, and others like it about similar instances. You just said yourself that he probably warned her harshly. Do you honestly find that to be the best way to handle a situation? I'm not expecting to change your mind or anything, but that does come across a little bit odd to me. I do believe you're right that a lot of people wouldn't bother to contact. I already said as much, that contacting people is a wise decision. That doesn't mean you should do it in whatever manner you choose. You should still handle such things with care. It's a delicate situation, from all angles(except for the thief's angle). I know I sure as heck listen a lot less when someone is berating me, or seemingly accusing me, than if they were straight forward and to the point without those rather demeaning qualities added in. I am not sure why you think Emuna has not been harmed by any of this. She very much has, and may continue to be, she's even said as much. I am taking her on her word on that one just as much as I am taking Xavier on his word that his animations were stolen. I believe both of them and have absolutely no reason not to believe them. Her being on a list in general causes her harm. If you think it doesn't, I can't expect to convince you. But she will lose potential customers. Now he may not have put her on that list, but he's definitely confirmed her place there. It may not have been intentional, because as I said, he's upset. But that is why I said it happened in the wake of his own upset condition. Actions, and words, always have consequences, good or bad, they always do. It's a good idea to choose them wisely.

It should go without saying, if you've actually read the thread, that Xavier already admitted his wording wasn't very nice... "Maybe I could have chosen my words better, but keep in mind...i had just learned that I was robbed. And it was not a small theft, it was major." One wouldn't say that if they didn't actually believe it. He also mentioned earlier on in the thread that if someone didn't do "real investigating" they were simply defending the thief. This. in a response, directly about Emuna, as that's who the poster was defending. So...calling her a thief, and insulting the person defending her in one blow. Not cool. She was/is no more a thief than anyone else. The real theif needs dealt with, and now he's at the mercy of the lab for that one. In the meantime it IS wise to contact people who have purchased these stolen things. I agree completely with that. I do not agree that going into a store group and contacting each and every person is a good idea though. At least not directly. I have seen people go into store group chats with a "guys, i hate to be the bearer of bad news but, I've got proof that X is selling stolen/copybotted/ripped items. I'd be happy to send it to anyone wanting info", etc... something to that effect. I'm not really one for contacting people who might have stolen goods, I prefer proof, but that's just me. We don't know if he contacted each and every person in that store group. We do know he got Emuna's name from that group though. He actually said a few things about that. He said he found her name on the vip group, that he found the thief's name on a watch list, and also that he found her(Emuna's) name on a watch list. It was stated three different ways in three different posts. All that tells me is he's rather upset, and worked up, and I don't blame him, and not able to keep things straight when he answers. This also tells me that, since he's already gone through the proper channels, now would be a good time to sit back, breathe deep and regroup. Before he says, or does anything that can cause damage that can't be undone. Whether it's to his business, reputation, or anything else. He's not helping his case here, at all. When you're upset is typically the worst time to try and deal with problems. Why? Because you're upset, lol. You're not likely going to always be in the best state of mind. You will likely say something you may want to rethink at a later date. Once you put it out there though, you can't take it back. All you can do is apologize for your misstep, hope people understand, and move on. Why keep doing things you'll probably have to apologize for at some point, or at least, restate.(aka "maybe I could have chosen my words better") You don't have to agree, no one does, but I strongly believe he handled this terribly and that is the exact reason I said I wouldn't shop with him. I made it a point to state that this is completely out of character for me because it really is. Even more to actually state it publicly. I'm a lot more understanding than a lot of people, and a lot more patient. I deal with having to be patient with people on a daily basis, especially people who get upset and have outbursts. I'd rather not explain why though, as it pertains to rl. So, I can be sympathetic, even empathetic to the issues surrounding theft. I have been there as well, which also gives me another perspective. What I can't, and won't do, is continue offering that same understanding when it's been repeatedly been pointed out that it was handled badly, and that person(or anyone else) continues to say what amounts to "nuh uh". That doesn't sit well with me. Especially when it involves the livelihood of other people. Be it sl income, or sl income turned rl income, it doesn't matter to me. Emuna's name is now on the line, and he's had a hand at putting it there. Not admitting that, or not being able to see that just shows me he's still upset and either not ready or not willing, to handle the problem like an adult.

nuria Augapfel wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Xavier Pomegranate wrote: As a helper here, what really irks me and worries me is did you send your little note to everyone in that VIP group and on this watch list? How many people in that group are actually, like Emuna here, innocent victims. Because that is what someone who receives stolen goods without knowledge of what they are is, they like you are a victim also. What the hell is wrong about sending a warn to all the group members of that group (who were evidently customers) to warn them that they bought stolen animations from a thief and to warn them that the original creators will keep an eye on them to be sure that the stolen stuff is not being resold? The problem is simple, they are innocent victims and as far as i know nobody said otherwise. But Xavier and the other animators affected CANNOT know about the honesty of each of the members of that group and if they keep selling the stuff even knowing that it's stolen. if you are an honest person i don't understand why this has to be an offense I would love to see the reactions if we were talking about our own stuff.... There is absolutely nothing wrong with sending warnings. How you do it, is what matters most and will make or break your case. It's very clear that Xavier has never had to deal with theft before, which is probably a relief for him. Because he very clearly went about it the wrong way. In stating his case here, he's continued, repeatedly, to go about it the wrong way. In fact has only compounded the problem, and created a mountain of problems for others. How you can't see that, and how you can't see his continual sharing of Emuna's name, and perhaps even others since he did admit he got her name from this person's group, is a terrible way to handle things tells me that you too have never had to deal with it. He, you, and anyone else who hasn't dealt with it should take the advice from those who have. We're not speaking out of our rear ends.

This is exactly what happens each and every time something like this happens. Someone gets bent out of shape, rightly so, because someone else stole from them, but then they take it a step further. The problem is, rather than sticking to what they do know, and can prove and taking care of THOSE issues, they start to take the world down around them. Often times, not realizing the ramifications of their own actions. Behaving like a child, which is exactly what name calling, false accusations and wanting the entire world's head on a spear all are, is not how grown adults handle things. Even worse, it's not how grown adult business persons handle things. At least not ones that intend to be taken seriously. Okay, it's not how they SHOULD handle things. I can honestly say, as a merchant or regular old player, I'd never purchase form Xavier based entirely on his words in this one thread. Which is pretty out of character for me, I'm a rather non-judgemental person normally. I tend to offer a lot of room for error, human flaws and whatnot. I have plenty of times purchased from people I disagree with, and flat out don't like even. What I don't like, or put up with, is someone so hell bent on being a victim that they create multiple victims in their own wake of destruction crying woe is me. That never sits right with me, ever. I could have behaved the same way myself, it was tempting to get mad at people who bought my stolen content from the theif. But, what good would it do? As I see it, absolutely none. Just as his rant has served absolutely no purpose. Unless the intent was to prove how NOT ready for business, in any capacity, he is.

Once upon a time my original av was a merchant(not this av). He enjoyed creating, selling and after the fact seeing others enjoy his products. One day he got an IM from someone who said "hey, you know that thingamabob you had out the other day, there's one over here too, I thought you said that wasn't for sale yet". Hmm, strange. "tp me". He checks it out. Sure enough his thingamabob is right there in front of him, textured the same, sized the same, looks identical actually. Now, this thing is a sculpt and not an extraordinary one at that, so it is entirely possible that two people would come up with the same idea. Likely? Maybe not, but it is possible. The texture however, is not possible. You see this thingamabob has a personalized texture on it, there's a watermark that you can only see if you know where to look for it, and know what you're looking for. Interesting idea, huh? It came about because of some texture theft about 6 months before this issue, but that's irrelevant to this case. Time for a take down. He goes through his proper channels. LL takes their sweet time. He never contacts this merchant selling his stuff. Why? Because it's not worth the aggrivation he knows will come about. Eventually LL take down the item. The thief lost, as well he should. The only problem is, before this happened multiple people happened to get a hold of this item. Because it was shared, not only in sl, but on external servers as well. His very special project, and it very much was one, was completely ruined by someone who simply did not give a kangaroo's toe for anyone else. Forget the fact that SL provided him and his family with enough income that neither he nor his teenage son had to work-single father and all. Forget the fact that he painstakingly worked for weeks on this project. Ok, no, let's not forget those facts, they are the reason he filed a take down to begin with, else he wouldn't have bothered. It's a pain in the butt, the whole process. The theif who stole his item continued trying to do so for a good long while with lots of things. One take down after another filed. Eventually some newb came along and did the same thing, except he didn't catch it right away. So a lot more of his creations were out scattered on the grid without his knowledge. You can bett your butt he was pissed. Who wouldn't be? It's your property being stolen. This time he decided to contact some of the people who unknowingly puchased his stolen goods, because LL were taking longer and longer to get through the take downs. The very first step was to CONFIRM that these people did indeed buy his products. He did that numerous ways. In some cases it was easy to see they had, because they were out in public places, other merchant's stores, on xstreet/marketplace. So how did he handle this? He created a notecard on it he put all of the information he could about his stolen product, including snapshots where appropriate. He included information about the take down process and how it was going thus far, or where he was as far as the steps go on that. He included how he knew they had his product. He never once said "I'm watching you, we're watching you, you're on a list, we suspect you're selling stolen goods". In fact, he never once accused THEM of anything. He did however, accuse the actual thief up to and including the thief's name, store, alt-the idiot had his alt's name in his profile. He never once came across accusatory to them in any manner. He felt that was the right thing to do. This thief, it turned out, had stolen from no less than 6 merchants, some of which eventually got together to share notes and compare. NONE of them EVER went after potential victims of this thief to accuse them, NONE. Why, I mean these people were selling stolen content, or at least, owned it, right? The reason is, those people were victims themselves. Like it or not, they are. How you handle yourself in crappy situations says a lot. Stolen from or not, you have NO RIGHT to accuse anyone of theivery, except the person who actually stole. I don't doubt you were robbed, I don't doubt that one bit. But the OP, did NOT rob you. Stop treating her, or others, as if they did, and you will find that you'll meet an awful lot more sympathy, and maybe even assistance, along the way. Those vigilante groups, despite what you might think, who create these lists are NOT always as helpful as they seem. Right now, because you're angry, and hurt, and upset, you think they're right as rain. But one day, you might come to find they aren't, and you might just understand why people are so very wary of them. They can be helpful, in the right situations, but most times, they are not. I learned that the hard way when dealing with one of my robbers. It was not pleasant. My original av is now long gone. Because of what happened, he had to join the actual rl work force and no longer has time for creation in sl. It truly is a shame. He joined in 2004, his business running from 2005 until 2012. That's a long run my friend, a very long run. Nearing the end it wasn't nearly as large as it once was, for all kinds of reasons. So I can be very empathetic to your problem, very. I have been there. It is not an easy road. But just because it's not easy for you, does not mean you should go forth and make things extra difficult on everyone that might have crossed paths with your robber. That's just not right man. That's not how you handle things. How you say things, and how you go about them, is going to be scrutinized by people, the same way you are scrutinizing people who may potentially own your animations. If you don't like that, then change your manner. It's really that simple. You went about this the wrong way. If I were you, this is what I would have done...I would have made a notecard and in it, put this "Hello, I am writing you today to let you know about something unfortunate. Please know I am not accusing you of anything, or any bad deeds. I am simply offering a heads up. I noticed you are in X group. I have come to find out that X(owner of said group/merchant/robber) is in posession of stolen goods. I know the goods are stolen, because they are mine. I am going to provide you the names of items I know are stolen. If you have, by chance, purchased these items, or know of anyone who has, I am asking kindly that you please not re-sell or share them in any way. I have filed a take down with LL. We are simply awaiting an answer. When the take down goes through these items will be removed from the grid. This means they will be removed from your products as well. That could prove to be disasterous for you as well as me. I would hate for anyone else to feel as I do right now. Thank you so much for your time and attention with this matter" And include a list of all stolen items. Notice I didn't include any other merchant's stolen goods, but you could if you wanted to-assuming you have proof, but if take downs went through those items would no longer exist anyway. See something like this, and something that says "you have stolen stuff, you're on a list, we're all watching you" are going to garner two totally different responses. The latter is at the very least, mean, the former however not only makes your point but also paints you in all kinds of good light. It comes across professional, understanding(that this person may too be a victim) and will likely get you more empathy than pointing the finger and saying "you stole from me". Your words say "you stole from me", I'm not even the one accused and it feels like you're sitting there with your finger pointed at the world. Please know I am NOT going to name call or try to degrade you, or make you feel bad, I simply post from the POV of someone who has sat in your shoes, literally lost it all, and doesn't want to see another merchant go by the wayside because of ill thought out plans when it comes to dealing with theft. Theft is no joke, regardless of the monetary amount. But being mean yourself when someone else has wronged you certainly won't get you any further. Good god that was long, I apologize.

Malanya wrote: I am not arguing with anyone here lol, if it seems that way, don't know what to say. You don't have to explain if you agree or not. Your forum name again, it was humour, sorry you felt the need to explain. I am not looking to come out dandy, I know in my heart who I am, how I have concern for people I don't even know and I will go the extra mile for many for no reason at all, that's just who i am and I happen to like who i am. Again you are certainly entitled to your opinion on words and thoughts on any forum, I was pointing out to read the whole thread, or if you did again and maybe sometimes we, as humans, and YES decent good humans, get fed up with people that you are saying do that exact thing so we react. I don't care I found humour in it. Sorry you didn't . Have a great day I wasn't trying to insult you. I don't believe you should dislike who you are, or what you do, I never discounted either. I did read the whole thread, that's exactly why i replied to one post, and not all of hers, as I already said I don't reply to that person directly because I HAVE been here for ages. I know exactly what will happen, and I'd rather not venture down that road, again, lol. I understand getting fed up-hence my not replying to every post. Some people are very good at getting to others. Some do it for fun. I personally don't like to feed that need. There are a lot of people that read the forums, and never, or rarely, reply. Call me sentimental but I'd rather not show them the lowest side of things, or proof positive that grown adults cannot have a normal discussion without bickering like this. The forums were once a really great place for sl. Albeit it a small population, it was once a lovely one. These particular forums are nothing like the forums of old days, but I'm still rather fond of directing people to them. But just like life, you can't put a bunch of people in a room and expect that they'll always get along. It won't happen. People will bicker, they will mudsling if they feel they need to, as well. Sometimes people need someone else to say "I think that's about enough of that". Impartial parties are usually the best bet. Not that I fit that bill, I'm not impartial. But I sure wish someone would be. I've had my fair share of "discussions" with people over the years. I darn well know I've stepped over the line myself. I appreciate the folks who pointed out the irony to me, even if only after the fact. Maybe that's just me though. You know better, you do better...a good motto I live by now. I will have a great day, you have a great day as well.

Malanya wrote: ImaTest wrote: Heart Brimmer wrote: Oh! On welfare I see. THAT would explain the attitude. One of THE most ignorant statements made in this entire thread. Yes, there are plenty of others as well, but this statement is just plain and simple wrong on every possible level. If you're going to mock, argue with, disagree with or whatever else you'd like to call it, someone you deem as not only incorrect but also being ignorant....you really shouldn't place yourself on the same platform they're standing on. What does welfare have to do with anything stated here? Why would you lump a program, or set of them, put in place to help people who may be down on their luck, in with anything stated here? Do you believe all people on welfare are ignorant? I would hope not. I'm willing to bet that most simply use it for it's intended purpose, a hand up. Bad apples aside, they exist everywhere, welfare has nothing at all to do with this topic. As for the rest....Not a single person has a right to stand on some pedestal, calling out others for their non-agreement on a topic, when they too are stooping as low as that which they're arguing against. Aka...don't feed the damn trolls and then complain about their existance. You're the one enabling it. You can disagree to your heart's content, everyone can. But the minute you do the very thing you're against, you're no better. Name calling is beyond silly once you're past the age of innocence and have the brain capacity to understand right from wrong. You can defend your right to name call all you want, but it won't change the fact that you're still doing it. It also won't make your point any clearer or wrap some special blanket of importance around it. It does, in fact, do the opposite. This is a public forum and funny how you didn't reply to the person who started labeling and such, so i guess welfare is off limits, but the unlimited rude, nasty comments is acceptable in your eyes, name calling is ok as long as the term "welfare" isn't used. I am sorry no mattter what comment I made or agreed to, I am not stooping to the level of the person who attacks on every thread and actually calls people names on every thread. So before YOU stand on your high and mighty pedastool, you should check the whole thread before you single out a person who has dealt with this rude crass commenter for a long time. I sense a biased person here, but I really don't care. Call the person out who name calls worse than the word welfare. Now you know my brain and capacity too lol you're not qualified as i am not qualified to say your brain is at it's proper capacity. Apparently you have a common interest with the person that disappeared from the thread. BTW if you can;'t see humour maybe public forums are not for you. I didn't feed the damn troll and complain, I laughed. Please re read the thread again. Also there was no mention of being down on your luck..so twist the words away. As for believing all people are on welfare are ignorant? Let's see...again if you can't see humour forums may not be for you. I am in the United States, freedom of speech and certainly to my opinion or if I choose to agree or not. I don't think I have that many posts here for you to draw any conclusion as some others here, but go on, it's your right to do so. If welfare is the most ignorant thing said on this forum you must feel that name calling in any sense is ok? I am not saying I didn't feed the troll, i did, after a year of reading her nasty remarks and the 1st post was not even to her, I decided to keep my hand out with the feed. Nice name BTW. OFF TOPIC AS YOU BROUGHT IT IN AS A DISCUSSION: Besides I think that abused welfare system should not exist, but yes thats another topic. if you believe that the system is not widely abused then you need to do some serious research. I have worked in the healthcare field for over a decade and know where to send those that have actual handicaps either physical or mental that are in true need of help. Nice off topic rant! I don't see anywhere in my reply where I said I agree. In fact, I painted everyone who is name calling with the exact same brush. It doesn't matter to me whose insult is "worse" or "meaner", I don't like any of them. I didn't reply to her directly because I know better. I know what it will turn into, I know how she'll reply, and I don't feed trolls. I was speaking to people who, I believed, would realize they were behaving the same way even if they didn't believe so. People I don't believe are trolls but their actions(aka words) in this thread have placed them in that same place-again, a place I don't believe they should be. Only a portion of my reply was directed at the welfare comment. I don't believe there is any humor in that particular statement. I do have a sense of humor, I just don't see humor in that statement, it just screams out ignorance and nothing more. It's not as if you qualified it, not that you have to of course as no one does. You cannot blame me for wondering why it was even mentioned, or what it had to do with the topic. I know all about welfare and how it is abused. In fact I think it deserves a complete overhaul. I just don't know what it has to do with some of the ignorant remarks(that she's made) and I find that it was simply used to insult. Again, no insult is better, or worse, thus far, in my eyes. I don't agree with a majority of what the person you're arguing with says, I never have and I never will. Though she, as everyone else, has the right to state or feel however she wants, everyone does. Regardless of whether or not I agree with them, everyone does have a right to "speak" here however they wish, within TOS. You, me, her, all of us do. I can disagree with her opinions without stooping down to the same level, and I do. That doesn't change the fact that I don't agree with ANY name calling, or troll feeding. Usually when what happened here starts happening, people yank the conversation back around again. Sometimes, they don't, and it gets ugly. Then neither side comes out looking all too dandy. Just my personal opinion of course, we've all got them. As for my name, this is a test avatar created back when we, on the forums, had a bit of a challenge to see if people could create a business from scratch without ever bringing a penny into sl. That came about because of a really great discussion that was going south fast, but got turned around by a lovely bunch of people who wanted to stop the mud slinging. So, imatest was born. Just a random name, nothing more, nothing less. I'm just not all that creative sometimes. I just happened to be logged into it checking messages.

Heart Brimmer wrote: Oh! On welfare I see. THAT would explain the attitude. One of THE most ignorant statements made in this entire thread. Yes, there are plenty of others as well, but this statement is just plain and simple wrong on every possible level. If you're going to mock, argue with, disagree with or whatever else you'd like to call it, someone you deem as not only incorrect but also being ignorant....you really shouldn't place yourself on the same platform they're standing on. What does welfare have to do with anything stated here? Why would you lump a program, or set of them, put in place to help people who may be down on their luck, in with anything stated here? Do you believe all people on welfare are ignorant? I would hope not. I'm willing to bet that most simply use it for it's intended purpose, a hand up. Bad apples aside, they exist everywhere, welfare has nothing at all to do with this topic. As for the rest....Not a single person has a right to stand on some pedestal, calling out others for their non-agreement on a topic, when they too are stooping as low as that which they're arguing against. Aka...don't feed the damn trolls and then complain about their existance. You're the one enabling it. You can disagree to your heart's content, everyone can. But the minute you do the very thing you're against, you're no better. Name calling is beyond silly once you're past the age of innocence and have the brain capacity to understand right from wrong. You can defend your right to name call all you want, but it won't change the fact that you're still doing it. It also won't make your point any clearer or wrap some special blanket of importance around it. It does, in fact, do the opposite. ETA: I should probably add that while I don't agree with a huge majority of the same things most here seem to disagree with as well, I just see no reason to venture down to the depths of, well I don't even know what I'd call it, but it's not a very pleasant place, clearly. You can disagree with someone without coming across as ignorant yourself. I am using the word ignorant with it's actual definition here, not the perceived or made up definition used to insult. Ignorance=lack of knowledge. When you start acting as a verbal bully, it starts to seep out in your words, as if you haven't the ability to communicate. People will never all see eye to eye. That's sort of what makes a discussion exist. Two-at least-opposing sides can make for a good discussion. Until the mud slinging,on both ends, starts to fall in. Then you've pretty much contributed to the end of what was, or could have been, a decent discussion. It's a pity. We're all grown adults, we all have the capacity to understand and communicate far better than this. It's a shame really.

Trix Braveheart wrote: Thank you. If they tell me someone scammed them with a credit card, I'm okay with it. Their answer was typical corporate "evasive speak"...fraudulent means could also mean someone hacked our system. I'm a lot more worried about that. Excellent explanation Thanks again BTW, do you know anyone who has had this whole credit card fraudulent Lindens explanation from the Lab? The response looks canned, but, people I've talked to have never heard it before...that could be a very good thing (meaning it hardly ever happens). I did say ithat you're not the first person it's happened to. I wasn't sure you'd want exact details though. But I have seen it plenty of times, and even seen it raised in sl forums(maybe not these ones, but ones from years ago). It's not a super common thing, but it definitely does and can happen. The anonymity of sl is what allows it to happen a wee bit easier here than in rl, but if I were a betting person I'd say it probably happens as often in both worlds. I know the canned responses are stupid, but what company doesn't use them, really? LL is no better, or worse, than any other who does it. Even the feds won't give you detailed info and are likely to give a canned response when/if it happens in rl too. I agree they could phrase things so much better. I've just personally grown used to dealing with businesses and canned responses, form letters and stuff. I probably shouldn't be as accepting of them as I am, but I am. I've had lindens taken back from me that were handed to me by someone who was "suspected" of obtaining them illegally. Same process happened, pretty much same canned response, but in the end it turned out not to be fraud just a freaky coincidence on the other person's part. So in the end the lindens while not returned to me, they were returned to the one who bought them that was accused of being suspicious, if that makes any sense. Took a good long while though, probably a good month at least. That was years ago.

Trix Braveheart wrote: Even the Feds tell you why they are taking the car or the stolen bonds or the horse back. I think the point here is the Lab has the recourse and we don't, it's a real life legal one. They should be looking out for us. In this case only merchants lost, Unless we hold the Lab's feet to the fire they have no downside. We pay, they win. This is a money issue, small now...but, how many got taken by this guy and how many of his pals? What about the future? I think you're missing the point actually. Yes the feds will tell you why they took the money back, the lab also told you why they took it back. They said they took it back because it was obtained by unauthorized means. That IS the answer as to why. The same thing happens in real life. If someone pays you $2k in rl and the feds later take it away because that person stole the money before giving it to you, do you think you have any recourse to get it all back? If your answer is yes, you are mistaken. You don't really have much recourse and the government is not going to give you that $2k back, it was never intended to be yours in the first place. Sure you could try to sue the guy who paid it to you originally-aka the thief, but I doubt you're going to win. Pretty sure that dude will be tied up in legalities for a good long while anyway, so stand in line, feds go first. It sucks, and you're not the first person it's happened to. If we can't prevent such things from happening in rl what makes you think a place, like sl, known for anonymity is going to be able to prevent it? You can't hold LL responsible for every single person and every single thing they do. Much as I hate to say it, they did exactly what they should have done. They retrieved the fraudulent monies and likely returned them back to the original owner(or are) they were stolen from to begin with. Doing that does, at times, leave someone holding the bag, or rather leaves someone less than whole. In this case you are out whatever services you offered this person. That's all you are out. Not that your time isn't valuable, or that there should be some monetary value attached that magically makes it a-ok versus absolutely horrible. It sucks no matter the amount, I agree. But what exactly do you think they should do? Take the money out of nowhere to return it to it's original owner AND let you keep it? That's hardly a good solution. So what do you propose they do instead? Aside from safeguards to stop this from happening more often-which they do have in place or they never would have caught this in the first place. What do you think would be a better solution? Their wording is usually pretty bad whe it comes to communication with residents. They tend to use form letters. But you'd likely get the same kind of response in rl too. I don't understand how you think the lab wins, to be honest. It's not like they said "oh no no no this 2k is ours now, we're keeping it". No, it gets returned to it's rightful owner. If it was obtained by fraudulent use of a CC, it goes back on that CC, or back in that paypal account, or whatever. They do their best to recover whatever they can, and most often it's most if not all of the money, and get it back to it's rightful owner. Put yourself in the place of someone whose money has been stolen, and then later used for whatever purpose the thief wanted. If authorities could get your money back to you, wouldn't you want them to? Or would you say, "no, let the merchant keep it, I don't really need it". I surely wouldn't, at least in most cases. I'd want my money back if they could get it back. Some CC companies and banks will return the money even before it's been returned to them. So in those scenarios, they lose, because they've now made you whole and have to sit on theit thumbs while they're made whole, and they very well may never be made whole. Either way someone in this sort of situation always loses, always. Everyone can't possibly be made whole again. Someone will be pissed. I've had my account hacked and money stolen once. They weren't able to get it all back to me, only some of it. It sucks. All those merchants and people that thief paid got to keep my hard earned money and I really got stuck being shafted. That feels a hell of a lot worse than being told "sorry we need to take these funds back from you because they weren't ever meant to be yours in the first place, thisguy stole it.". I'd feel hella bad keeping another person's stolen money, personally.

jwenting wrote: yup, and many merchants are abusing direct delivery to send the very same boxes they were sending anyway. So people still need to unpack those boxes, something direct delivery was intended to do away with. May start making a list of lazy merchants doing that and reporting them all. That's not actually true. DD was created to get away from magicboxes. This is why merchants have the option(when it works correctly, which it does not always do right now) to inform customers if the item still needs to be unpacked or not. If the intent was to eliminate the need to unpack entirely, merchants would not have this option. Of course, as I said, this option as we have it now, is not optimal, because it doesn't always function correctly. The options merchants can choose don't always actually fit the scenario for any particular item.(like for instance stating that you need land to use the product when in fact it may not be an item that requires land at all). Or, as in many instances, the option changing after a merchant has listed an item. I've seen several complaints of that, and before JIRAs were closed, tons of them went unanswered because LL couldn't explain why it was happening. I don't consider it lazy at all for a merchant to sell a boxed item-that needs unpacking-via DD. For one, merchants were semi-rushed to transfer their stuff to DD because of warnings that the mbs would soon no longer work. Of course that never happened, but merchants had no way to know this beforehand. So of COURSE a lot of things are still boxed. I don't blame merchants one little bit. How difficult is it to unpack a box anyway? It really takes no time at all. It's more laziness on the part of the consumer complaining about having to unpack. DD is not ideal because it wasn't thought out very well. It could be better, and probably eventually it will. For the time being however I believe offering more wiggle room for merchants (and not calling them all lazy, or worse "abusing DD" simply because you're choosing to be lazy about unpacking-general you of course) is ideal. It's not the merchants' fault that LL can't get their stuff straight.

Dilbert Dilweg wrote: Sure and one can also argue the consuner was well aware of the land impact issue and only seen a prim count and purchased a mesh product anyway. Shouldnt this user according to their previous posts have a sense of knowledge due to experience in these forums and in world too before purchasing a mesh item? lol Did you actually read the post before making this stupid statement? How could the person know the LI based on the listing. Obviously this person has knowledge, she's not a nitwit. But she also can't read minds. If a seller doesn't disclose how is a consumer to know? I think you're making things up as you go along now, lol. The onus, in this instance, and many like it, remains on the merchant. Yes it's our responsible to be aware when buying things, but if sellers are not honest, it's no longer our fault. This seller deserves to be ARd for this crap, and any seller like them. Too many try to play the ignorance card. We see regular old consumers like you and me constantly being told buyer beware, you get what you pay for and such. Why can't it also be merchant beware too? Why are the rules different for merchants? Why is it ok to let them be dishonest and let them pretend they have no clue, when you're not willing to allow consumers to not understand. If anyone(and that's a big if) should be allowed wiggle room from time to time for ignorance it would be a consumer and not a merchant. I expect people making stuff to know how their stuff works.

I don't think merchants should be given the opportunity ti claim ignorance when it comes to stuff like this, regardless of how long you've been in sl or not. You made an item, you're taking someone else's money, mere pennies perhaps, and you're expected to know how your own product works. That includes LI. If you don't, then you've no business selling it in the first place until you do better understand it. In this case it wasn't a case of being off by a few, it was off by ten times the amount. That's ridiculous, unacceptable and quite clearly this seller knew better. I have plenty of patience for merchants just learning and no I don't think MP or selling in general should be limited to those with all the knowledge and experience in the world. But there is a point when ignorance is no longer a good excuse.