SappaDallagio

As a user of the RLV technology, I still need to resort to a TPV in order to get that functionality so I still rely upon them heavily for my daily SL use. But, what I have used of the new SL viewers, I agree that having the toolbars and relocateable buttons is much preferable, for me, than the locked-down sidebar. I also agree that the frame rates I get on my new iMac (the most recent model) is poor when using the latest SL viewer as compared to the now long-in-the-tooth Firestorm-Mesh-beta.

OK... an update to my previous post (message #63) about not having crashes... While this may be true, to some extent, that I haven't had viewer app crashes while using the SL viewers, I have had other problems, such as one sim works flawlessly (able to move, everything renders, able to use Ultra graphics with Lighting and Shadows (ignoring the milky eyes already addressed in the Jira), watching the neat sky and wind animations...) while another sim doesn't work at all (nothing rezzes, no sound, draw distance set to as minimum as possible, low graphics). Yet, in those sims that don't work for me, others using Windows-based viewers are able to move about as easily as I can in sims that do work. These "no-work" sims, as I call them, are repeat offenders, no matter whose viewer I use... no matter what time of day. They fail to work for me every time I've visited. I can only surmise that perhaps there is something about all of the Mac viewers, that have code in common with each other, that still don't like the under-the-hood changes in Lion. I have anecdotal evidence from a couple of other Lion users I know that they have also grumbled the same misgivings as I have and have gone back to either an older Mac system or returned to their Windows box to get their SL work done. I can do neither; no backup Windows machine and my older Mac is an iBook G4 which can only run a less-than-handful number of PPC capable v1 viewers. This may all be on me but I doubt it. I run a very stock Lion system with no OS hacks or "additions." I've not made any command line tweaks. I'm as out of the box clean as can be. I can only think that SL continues to not be fully compatible with Mac OS X Lion... at least as far as viewers are concerned. Is it possible to make a new install of a viewer NOT use the ~/Library/... location? Maybe Apple has done more to that directory structure than simply making it hidden; maybe there are other permissions changes that haven't yet been taken into account in the viewer code? I kknow I'm grasping at straws here but... any suggestions from anyone else? Thanks. [edited to add the viewers I have tried...] SL viewers since 3.0.3 Firestorm-Mesh-Beta Dolphin 3

Tsukkei... this is a... beta... viewer. Just sayin'...

Ah... I'm guessing that was before my time. I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing.

Let's see... I have a $600 Mac mini and using SL viewer 3.2, I get acceptable frame rates. For the sparse sims, I get really good frame rates. Oh, that price is for the entire computer... including the in-built AMD graphics chipset. However, I prefer to use Firestorm as I get really good frame rates... when it's not crashing around me. Does Linden Labs need a more prominent position to let users know about TPVs? Does Apple give prominent positions on their web site for alternative web browsers? Same question for Google and Microsoft... do they give prominent positions for the other browsers other than their own? It is a valid comparison, considering the purpose of a web browser is to view the contents of a very open and public system of internets. On the other hand, Linden Labs created a private virtual world and created a viewer so we could have a portal into that private world. By rights they didn't have to make the software that runs their world open source... they did it anyway. Through the open sourcing of both their server and viewer software, Linden Labs made it possible to let others create not only alternative viewers for Second Life, but alternative grids to use their viewers on. Some made grids... other made viewers... and they all play nicely together... mostly. In my view, Linden Labs has done plenty to make TPVs possible and I don't feel they need to take the extra step to help promote the existence of other, arguably better (in some peoples' minds) TPVs. It's actually quite interesting that they have wiki space devoted to TPVs along with their published policies on what makes a TPV acceptable for use in SL. Noobs coming in to SL will, if they find the virtual world interesting enough to stick around, figure out about the existence of TPVs. They'll hear and see the chatter inworld about their existence, maybe becoming curious enough to seek out more info via the SL wikis... the SL fora... the SL Jira... run general internet searches. They will find out for themselves. And no... I'm not a member of the LL fan club. In fact, over the past two or three weeks, I've been ranting inworld about how their seemingly arbitrary decisions regarding server upgrade scheduling as left not only users/consumers but sim owners/managers fuming at them. Much of the slow responses and lagginess that everyone's experienced over the past couple of weeks could be attributed to that, and every time my avi cannot walk or fly, or I enter a PG sim without any clothing because it didn't rezz... I think awful thoughts... really... awful... thoughts. But giving credit where it's due, LL has done quite enough in promoting TPVs already. Oh... there is a link on the download page that takes one to the Second Life Wiki page for alternative viewers. It's right there... printed in green text... under the heading... "More Viewers". It's pretty obvious to me.

Christi, I'm surprised that you can get SL v1.23 viewer to run under Lion. I'm assuming you have the Intel version of that viewer and not the PowerPC version? With the release of Lion, Apple killed off the ability to run PowerPC applications, so the fact that you are able to start SL v1.23 indicates that you may have found an Intel version. Personally, I would forget about using SL v1.23 ever again. It's old and the road ahead for it is filled with potholes. Linden Labs are updating and upgrading their servers with new SL server software that contains features the old SL v1.23 viewer won't know how to deal with, which in itself would cause some instability. So... between SL v1.23 being unstable by itself on Lion and SL v1.23 being slowly obsoleted by LL with each new server upgrade, I think it's time you tried a new viewer. I suggest you try SL v3.1, Firestorm Mesh beta (http://www.phoenixviewer.com/), or Dolphin 3 (http://dolphinviewer.eregion.de/). I use them on my Mac and haven't had too many issues with them. You didn't state your MBP's specs so I don't know if these modern viewers would tax your machine but, this is the direction that Linden Labs is taking Second Life.

Firstly @coldbird RE: camera orbit... I was distraught with the changes made in the 3.1 and beta 3.2 viewers as well, but I found the answer to fix the behavior here on this board: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Viewer/Change-to-camera-operation-in-3-1-0-is-a-serious-problem-and/td-p/1174559 Now, to rollback. First, you need to have kept or can download again the installer for the version you want to rollback to. Once you have that, you'll need to dig into your OS and manually delete all files associated with the viewer install (maybe even a registry key removal or edit for Windows users?). I'm a Mac user so it's pretty straightforward for us and I believe it's the same set up on a Linux box. For Windows you may need to use your favorite search engine to find the exact details on which files you'll need to trash. Once you've cleaned out all of the files, you can reinstall your old version.

Has he tried using a different computer, preferably one that is newer and beefier than what he may be normally using? That question just popped into mind, particularly after you mentioned that he has done a lot of different things to troubleshoot... all on his computer. Does this still happen using other computers?

Penalver, I also use beta viewer 3.2.0 on a Mac but I've not yet had a problem crashing when starting it up. However, I don't doubt what you are saying as, the first time I started the beta viewer up, it was taking way too long to start so I just did a Force Quit. I then when into my ~/Library/Application Support/ and ~/Library/Caches folders and completely deleted the SecondLife folder from both locations. Yes, this killed the preference settings, logs, and all of the various goodies that I had built up while using a previous viewer but it gave me a clean slate to start using the beta. Once I did all of that, the beta viewer started up immediately and I've not had a problem since. Actually, in retrospect, it was a good idea to start from a clean slate as some of the preferences seems to have changed between 3.1 and 3.2. This is not without precedent; Phoenix tells its users to do a clean slate install between each release of their Firestorm viewer as things change between releases. If you don't want to trash all the old recorded conversations and/or logs, simply move them to another location that's not within the two hierarchies I mentioned above. With regards to the buttons along the bottom... they are easily changed, which makes the 3.2 user interface a dream (as compared to 3.1 or earlier). Up under the Me menu, there is an option called Toobars...; click on that. The dialog box that pops up allows you to add to or take away from your HUD whatever buttons you'd like. You'll also notice that the areas along the edge of the screen turn blue, indicating that they are possible places for you to move buttons to your liking. By default the viewer ships with buttons along the left and bottom sides. Don't like it, move them off to the right. Works just like how I've seen non-Unity Linux and Mac OS X Dock positioning works. Have fun.

The photo tells me it looks like you're using Phoenix which, while having been modified in attempts to incorporate all the latest bells and whistles, is still basically v1 viewer code at its core. If you were to present this problem to the Lindens, they might ask if it is reproducible using either the SL viewer v3. Is it? Have you tried a v2 or v3 viewer? The grainy images in the appearance editor where various body adjustment model pics should be seems to indicate a problem with graphics rendering. Maybe there is a problem in the settings that, since the appearance editor is affected, may be affecting the rendering of his skin. Has he tried using another skin? Perhaps there is a problem with the skin itself. Has he created a second avatar for his account (different shape, skin, eyes, hair)? Has he tried creating an alt account to see if it may be a problem in his normal account? If the skin is mesh based, do the sims where he has the problem even have mesh turned on? From what I've been reading, this may be a sim owner option. The avatar in this photo seems to be wearing a lot of prim clothing. Sometimes prim clothing is built with underlying invisiprims to help shape the style of the article. Are the invisiprims sloppily added in and too large, thereby hiding the parts of exposed skin that should be left exposed? Those are just some of the things that popped into my mind while typing this out. Others may have more. But, from the lack of info in your OP, we don't have much to go on.

For me, it wasn't a spec I read. It was my actual use of it. When VBO is enabled on my system, FPS drops to 10 FPS or less. When it is disabled, FPS jumps to 25 or better FPS, every other setting being left alone. The card in my computer is an AMD Radeon HD 6750M, which was produced after AMD purchased ATi. So, it is, in effect, an ATi product just rebadged as AMD. [edited to clarify my video card's identification and to correct minor typos]

It's not just you Emily. I use a Mac and got the same crash for the now released 3.1 viewer. The mac_crash_logger crashed right after the viewer itself crashed, for whatever reason. So, the Mac OS X system crash logger logged the SL crash logger crashing and sent a full detailed report to Apple. I'm guessing LL will have to contact Apple for that result if they really want it; maybe Apple will send it on to them. It happened only once though.

Interesting that your viewer tells you that you'll need to upgrade. I, too, have a Mac and I've never had any SL viewer tell me that I needed to upgrade... and that's with the update/upgrade notification turned on to automatically update (which has never worked for me). At this point the v3.2.x that you were alerted to is in beta so it's not the one that's on SL's download page associated with the big download button at the top. Rather, about the middle of the page, is a subheading for beta viewers, and the download for 3.2.x is in that area. Just click on the highlighted word "Mac" and you'll get the latest version. As to the rest of your post regarding the trash can... I have no clue. Just one of those strange things I guess.

I'll confirm this is true. By default, this option was turned off for me (I have an AMD HD 6750M, which is basically an ATi) so I turned it on looking for extra performance. After all, it was working for others so I thought I'd give it a go. Bad mistake. Not that it caused any irreparable problems but performance lagged... badly. It's off now and if I could put a piece of virtual duct tape over the setting within prefs, complete with a DO NOT TURN ON! note, I'd do it.

As much as I grumble about performance issues in Second Life, there's no way Linden Labs can accomodate every single variation of every single card on the market. They have limited resources and personnel and they do the best they can to include as many of the more common chipsets and cards that manufacturers are putting into their computers at the factories. Having said that... yes, I agree there should be better support for the higher end cards built into the viewer. Since you seem well versed in assembling and tweaking equipment, have you researched and gone through all the available tweaks and tips that other users have made within the settings of their video card setup and/or SL viewer preferences? It can be daunting but once you've tweaked the firmware and the software, you may be able to bump your FPS to a more acceptable level. Do a search in here... the SL wiki... and the SL Jira for other user comments and/or submitted issues for your family of graphics card. With the info I've been able to cull from this forum alone, I've increased my average FPS from 11 up to 25, so I'm much happier. I know this machine I have is capable of doing more than that, so I keep searching for that extra tidbit of info that may give me the extra boost. You failed to mention which V3 viewer you were using. LL has three different V3 viewers supported at the moment, so it might be worth your while to download and install them all to see if things improve for your card. I would suggest trying the beta viewer available on the SL downlad page (about the middle of the page, under the heading for "beta"). That would have the best chance of additional support... maybe. You could also try the V3 third party viewers. I use Firestorm Mesh beta and Dolphin 3. Perhaps one of them will have more preferences for you to play with.

Nope... no facelights Jeannie. Thanks to Cerise I've added my voice to the few in the Jira who also have this problem.

Thank you Cerise for the reference. At least I'm not alone and LL now knows there is one more Mac user having this problem. Thanks again.

What I haven't seen in this discussion is whether or not the iPad supports OpenGL. Does it? I don't have one and I'm not inclined to spend time searching for that, simply because I have no desire to own an iPad. But, to all you iPad owners who believe this device can render SL, does it have the OpenGL implementation within it to do so? I also saw Java mentioned in the previous posts, though I am unclear as to how that is relevant. As far as I know, Java is one of those "outside" technologies that Apple bans apps from having if they're in the App Store. Since you cannot load apps from outside the App Store (well, if you jailbreak the device, that's another story), if parts of a SL viewer needs Java, it ain't gonna happen. Then there's the whole adult content thing. Maybe a mobile viewer for the Android platform is workable or not, that's anyone's guess. But, from a legal and non-technical perspective, it's a non-starter for the iOS devices.

If your friends can see your profile's About and 1st Life tabs from within their viewers, then the problem is not with your profile or account. If you or your friends can see the About and 1st Life tabs from a web browser, the problem is not with your profile or account. Chances are, your own viewers' installations may have problems, and I would suggest a complete uninstall and reinstall of ALL of your viewers you use for Second Life. At the moment I am unable to supply you with web sites or pages that have explicit instructions on how to do that, but a search using your favorite search engine should supply you with a good assortment of ideas on how to do this. [edited to add: ...] If the problem you are having lies with only one account; that is, if you can see those tabs while logged in with other accounts, then your viewer's cache and support files stored on your hard drive, for that one "bad" account may be the only things you'll have to manually delete. You may not have to do a complete uninstall/reinstall of your viewers. You will have to, however, dig down through your hard drive's file system to locate the files associated with the "bad" account and delete those (the viewer will recreate them when you next log in with that account). Which files to delete are dependent upon which OS you are using. I use Mac OS X so I have no knowledge of how a Windows-based viewer stores those files. Maybe another reader here does and is willing to help?

The tiny dots above the voice chatters' heads are in only two states... green for active, white for inactive. I'm betting that uses far less memory and processing than having an entire name displayed, particularly if the name is made up of those hard to guess or read Unicode characters. If names above peoples' heads are irritating (which they are to me), you could simply go into your preferences and turn them all off. That way, the voice chat dots would stand out better. As for getting the names of the chatters, simply rolling your mouse over the avatar brings up a tool tip showing their name... provided that feature hasn't been manually turned off in the preferences (it's turned on by default).

i will confirm this as well. No crashes... well, not any that weren't user created. LOL For comparison, I'm running: iMac i5 quad core, 4MB RAM, ATi/AMD HD6750M w/ 512MB video RAM, and Mac OS X Lion (10.7.2, build 11C74).

When I enable the Lighting and Shadows for my viewers (matters not as to which one, it happens on both SLV 3.1.x and Firestorm Mesh), my avatar's eyes go mostly white, as if the texture used to make the iris has simply vanished. I have also noticed that creating new eyes in the Appearance Editor also suffers from this same fate... the default template is ignored no matter how I set the two controls for eye creation. Has anyone got a workaround for this, other than disabling Lighting and Shadows (which I have done for now)? I realize it's an experimental rendering agent so I'm not expecting mainstream support, but maybe one or two of you good people who have played around with this might have some tips. Otherwise, it's off to the Jira for me with this one. :)

This is the URL I grabbed my copy of 3.1.x from: http://secondlife.com/support/downloads/?lang=en-US The download button indicates it is 3.1.0.243176 and a quick confirmation shows that is what installed. If this URL doesn't offer the 3.1.x viewer to you, then may I suggest you completely clear out your web browser's temporary files and cache at the OS level, and not just by using the in-browser controls. Perhaps your browser is grabbing a cached copy? [edited to add:...] I'm using Mac OS X Lion, btw.

Thanks Hitomi for confirming that I'm not missing something. I might submit a feature request to LL to have it added... if I can figure out the quagmire that seems to be the Jira system. Is that even the place to submit feature requests?

If you are an RLV user, make sure there are no restrictions on your avi that would keep the location where your hair is attached locked. Some wankers and/or poorly written RLV scripts have locked various prims onto myself as well without my knowledge and when I investigate I find all sorts of restrictions placed upon me. In Firestorm Mesh, you can check which restrictions you may be under by visiting the "RLVa > Restrictions" menu option. Solution if there are restrictions... turn off RLV or use a non-RLV viewer to detach the affected prim then clear your cache. I find that clearing first using the viewer's clear controls then manually deleting the cached folder from my OS works best in my situation, but YMMV. If you're not an RLV user, then perhaps the hair piece that will no longer detach may be corrupted in some way. If you still have the box containing the hair in your inventory, try rezzing out a new copy and see if that works. If the hair is not copyable and ends up being corrupted, you may have no alternatives other than obtaining a brand new copy from the creator directly. I had thought about locking scripts that may have, somehow, ended up inside your hair but... locking scripts only work if you're an RLV user. If you're not, then the locking scripts won't work. Usually.