Marketplace Listings wrt Land Impact

[TatianaDokuchic Varriale]

Now that Land Impact  (LI) has been implemented I was wondering if anyone had heard about changes to include it in  the Marketplace listing?  Instead of Prim Count?  In addition to Prim Count?

Right now I see that people are describing LI in the textual description with the usual disclaimer that the LI may change depending on size, addition of scripts etc.

To my mind LI is now more important than Prim Count if you are using it to determine (as I think many customers are) what the object will cost you in terms of keeping it rezzed on your land.  I personally would rather be searching on LI than Prim Count.

Also, I now have objects that have Prim Counts that are higher than the Land Impact.  I don't know what to do about listing those with the current system.  I've acutally considered setting the Prim Count to 0 just so that people would look to a written disclaimer saying "Land Impact is 20 and Prim Count is 40" but I can see this leading to a whole heap of trouble.

So have you heard anything about this and what are you doing in the meantime?

[Toysoldier Thor]

First of all the LI and its variability based on its use / deployment is still and likely for a very long time only going to pertain to any item you buy that has a MESH model included in the build.  Technical, all other types of rezzed prims and group of prims each have a fixed LI=1 or a multiple of 1 x the number of these units.

So LL Commerce (if they had the time to focus on anything other than DD with their staff) wanted to provide more information to Marketplace Buyers, they could change the listings in a couple ways.

 

1. They could leave the PRIM COUNT field alone and it can be used for any listing where NO MESH models are part of the item being sold.  So a prim count of 12 is a fix count.  Then they could then add a new field called LAND IMPACT for any item that uses a mesh model in its build.  This field should warn buyers that the LI will change if the purchased item is adjected or amended after rezzing.  So the LI field is LI ON INITIAL REZ.
2. They could remove PRIM COUNT and just replace it with LI.  So an item with 12 non-mesh prims in it would report an LI=12.  If it has mesh then it would be reported as the prim count on initial rez.

For either option the biggest issue with the LI field when it comes to selling and which the creators of the LI concept didnt think about or care (they were only focused on the pure acedemic aspects of figuring out the perfect formula to determine every possible factor that would cause a mesh to cause lag on a sim) was that since LI is a potentially powerful selling feature in determining a sale, smart MESH MAKERS will start making Mesh model very small in scale which would positively impact one factor in the calculation of a LI of a mesh. 

This might not work for all mesh markets but for example, IF in the future its feasible to sell mesh landscape terrains (it isnt right now), then why wouldnt a mesh maker make the initial model 1m x 1m x 1m in size on rez?  When the model scales in size - the LI will skyrocket but since the listing only reports LI on initial rez - the listing will look good and competitive. 

Another sleezy trick is for the builder to provide scripts to the build as seperate items and optional add-ons to the listing being sold.  Normally these scripts would have freely and with no thought added to the object, but since scripts in a mesh model impacts LI, why not take them out of the object and include the scripts in the item sold for the buyer to decide if they want to place it into the object? 

So now you see another issue in LI that would have to be figured out on Marketplace.... setting an agreed standard of what a mesh LI is measured at when posted on a listing.  Without these rules / standards, I see LI being gamed by smart creators that could increase sales by how they build their items to manipulate LI on Rez.

There are a lots of hurdles and complexities in the selling of items that are based on LI's variability if a mesh model is included.  The flaw that LL Mesh Developers didnt care about is that in their pursuit of creating the perfect LI formula, they didnt put any thought into how it will be listed / sold.

They could have kept the LI formula much more simple and based on much courses thresholds that would not only have made MESH models more attractive to build (lower penalties for uploading and rezzing on the land) but also easier to list and sell.

Ohh well...

So the question is.... which approach does LL consider deploying and how does LL deploy a listing change that fairly represents the Mesh model's true efficiency vs it being gamed?

[TatianaDokuchic Varriale]

"Technical, all other types of rezzed prims and group of prims each have a fixed LI=1 or a multiple of 1 x the number of these units."

Well actually that's not the case.  As I've said, I now have linksets that contain only simple prims with a LI lower than the Prim Count.  See Ciaran Laval's blog Using Convex Hull to Lower Land Impact if you would like more information about that.

This means that LI is now relevant to ALL objects being sold not just those that contain Mesh which is why it's time it was included in the Marketplace.  As a consumer I would now rather know the LI (including disclaimers) than the Prim Count.

This also means that I now have prefab homes and furniture that are half the LI than what they originally were and I would like to highlight that fact.  I'm certainly not talking about tricking customers but rather informing them. 

LI is here to stay so we should be finding ways to educate our clientele and provide them with information that is relevant today.

[Madeliefste Oh]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

This might not work for all mesh markets but for example, IF in the future its feasible to sell mesh landscape terrains (it isnt right now), then why wouldnt a mesh maker make the initial model 1m x 1m x 1m in size on rez?  When the model scales in size - the LI will skyrocket but since the listing only reports LI on initial rez - the listing will look good and competitive. 

Another sleezy trick is for the builder to provide scripts to the build as seperate items and optional add-ons to the listing being sold.  Normally these scripts would have freely and with no thought added to the object, but since scripts in a mesh model impacts LI, why not take them out of the object and include the scripts in the item sold for the buyer to decide if they want to place it into the object? 

So now you see another issue in LI that would have to be figured out on Marketplace.... setting an agreed standard of what a mesh LI is measured at when posted on a listing.  Without these rules / standards, I see LI being gamed by smart creators that could increase sales by how they build their items to manipulate LI on Rez.

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The LI field should be linked to a size field. It should not be possible to put in a LI number, without also filling in the size field.

There could also be a field that can be checked for scripts, like 'no scripts', 'scripts included in object', 'scripts available but not included in object.

 

[Pamela Galli]

I don't see that "prim count" has much relevance anymore, since LI tells us how many "prims" are deducted from the total. Who cares how many prims something is made of when the LI is the important figure?

I would treat the prim count field as LI.

 

 

[Pamela Galli]

Maddie -- You can put some info in the description that "size affects LI" and whatever else, to explain LI, but people are just going to have to learn a few things about mesh, including that size makes a difference, and that setting things Convex Hull takes advantage of new mesh accounting rules, etc. 

 

When I put a prim count, that is the LI, and it is for the things at the size they now are.  (Not that anyone wants giant furniture.)

 

Yes, it is complicated, and merchants must be prepared to educate everyone, but the consumer also has some responsibility to understand how SL works (I still have to explain quite often that I cannot keep plants from looking like they sometimes come through the windows.)

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

This might not work for all mesh markets but for example, IF in the future its feasible to sell mesh landscape terrains (it isnt right now), then why wouldnt a mesh maker make the initial model 1m x 1m x 1m in size on rez?  When the model scales in size - the LI will skyrocket but since the listing only reports LI on initial rez - the listing will look good and competitive. 

Another sleezy trick is for the builder to provide scripts to the build as seperate items and optional add-ons to the listing being sold.  Normally these scripts would have freely and with no thought added to the object, but since scripts in a mesh model impacts LI, why not take them out of the object and include the scripts in the item sold for the buyer to decide if they want to place it into the object? 

So now you see another issue in LI that would have to be figured out on Marketplace.... setting an agreed standard of what a mesh LI is measured at when posted on a listing.  Without these rules / standards, I see LI being gamed by smart creators that could increase sales by how they build their items to manipulate LI on Rez.

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The LI field should be linked to a size field. It should not be possible to put in a LI number, without also filling in the size field.

There could also be a field that can be checked for scripts, like 'no scripts', 'scripts included in object', 'scripts available but not included in object.

 

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Now you are talking Made

The other posters here are just saying "LI's are here to stay so just start using it and educate the customers on what LI really means" BUT that is easier said than done.  AND we are all naive here if we think that all merchants will play fair and no merchant will GAME the LI number.

If it makes better sales by a Merchant selling a Couch that is .5 x .5 x .5 in order to keep his couch at a lower LI then his competitor or to let the customer add into the couch the scripts they want within the pack so that the LI count on the couch is lower without the scripts.... THEY WILL DO IT.

Made... you are doing what I wanted to hear.... you are addressing the hurdles that the Mesh developers that created this crazy complex LI model didnt care to deal with....

How to set listing standards for a field value that has no relevence because of its inherent variability.

And LI value would have to be tied directly (with mandatory inputs) with SIZE of MESH, # of Scripts included in the listing so that the customer knows exactly what makes up the LI value.  If this info is not provided by the Merchant as a mandatory for mesh listings then the LI can and will be GAMED.

 

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

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TatianaDokuchic Varriale wrote:

"Technical, all other types of rezzed prims and group of prims each have a fixed LI=1 or a multiple of 1 x the number of these units."

Well actually that's not the case.  As I've said, I now have linksets that contain only simple prims with a LI lower than the Prim Count.  See Ciaran Laval's blog

Using Convex Hull to Lower Land Impact

 if you would like more information about that.

This means that LI is now relevant to ALL objects being sold not just those that contain Mesh which is why it's time it was included in the Marketplace.  As a consumer I would now rather know the LI (including disclaimers) than the Prim Count.

This also means that I now have prefab homes and furniture that are half the LI than what they originally were and I would like to highlight that fact.  I'm certainly not talking about tricking customers but rather informing them. 

LI is here to stay so we should be finding ways to educate our clientele and provide them with information that is relevant today.

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To me the Convex Hull is moreso a prim that falls into the true MESH category then the basic prim category.

I joked at Medhue in another thread when I said that he should be creating MESHED cubes and spheres and sell on marketplace the more efficient LI of a meshed prim. 

This used to a joke to sell a cube prim on marketplace and to see customers buy these prims.... but hey... maybe there is a business in making more efficient basic prims

The new Pet Rocks of MP

[TatianaDokuchic Varriale]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I don't see that "prim count" has much relevance anymore, since LI tells us how many "prims" are deducted from the total. Who cares how many prims something is made of when the LI is the important figure?

I would treat the prim count field as LI.

 

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 I agree that LI is the important information now, especially for the Marketplace search.

I can see using prim count if you are buying something that you then want to modify (add scripts, enlarge etc.) then it would at least give you a ballpark figure to work with but I don't need that to be a search field.  Including it in the description or a non-search field would be fine for me.

[TatianaDokuchic Varriale]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes, it is complicated, and merchants must be prepared to educate everyone, but the consumer also has some responsibility to understand how SL works (I still have to explain quite often that I cannot keep plants from looking like they sometimes come through the windows.)

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LOL - Pamela's plant broke my window!! :smileylol:

On a more serious note, I do believe that education is a two way street requiring a commitment on both sides and that applies to just about everything in SL.

What also applies to just about everything in SL is the potential for someone to game the system and so it's just not a valid reason to avoid implementing LI.

[Porky Gorky]

Something I have been thinking allot about this past week is how I am going to handle documenting and explaining to customers the LI changes that occur when you package a mesh item in an auto aligner such as Rez Faux. When I package up a build in Rez Faux I need to put a positioning script in the root of every linkset. This is obviously going to increase the LI for every linkset. All the linkset's then go in the anchor prim. When the end user rezzes the build it will come out of the anchor with the higher LI as the linksets still contain all the positioning scripts. Once the end user positions the build and clicks the 'save' button in the dialogue menu, then all the positioning scripts will be automatically deleted, thus lowering the LI.

So there will be 2 LI figures customers need to take into account, The "out of the box" LI and "final LI" once the position has been saved.

Where posible I will do away with auto aligners and just try and link the mesh parts together, but I like making big builds so not allways possible. Being able to make our own physics shapes is helping as I was forever using phantom linkets on sculpts which obviously can't be linked into the rest of build. 

I need to think about doors too. MIne are all unlinked as i've allways used auto aligners, I don't know how to link doors to a build and make them open and close properly but I am sure it can be done.

Does anyone know exactly how scripts increase LI? Does a large script cost more than a small script? Does the quality of the scripting have any bearing? Or is it just a set weight per script?

 

[TatianaDokuchic Varriale]

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Porky Gorky wrote:

Something I have been thinking allot about this past week is how I am going to handle documenting and explaining to customers the LI changes that occur when you package a mesh item in an auto aligner such as Rez Faux. When I package up a build in Rez Faux I need to put a positioning script in the root of every linkset. This is obviously going to increase the LI for every linkset. All the linkset's then go in the anchor prim. When the end user rezzes the build it will come out of the anchor with the higher LI as the linksets still contain all the positioning scripts. Once the end user positions the build and clicks the 'save' button in the dialogue menu, then all the positioning scripts will be automatically deleted, thus lowering the LI.

So there will be 2 LI figures customers need to take into account, The "out of the box" LI and "final LI" once the position has been saved.

Where posible I will do away with auto aligners and just try and link the mesh parts together, but I like making big builds so not allways possible. Being able to make our own physics shapes is helping as I was forever using phantom linkets on sculpts which obviously can't be linked into the rest of build. 

I need to think about doors too. MIne are all unlinked as i've allways used auto aligners, I don't know how to link doors to a build and make them open and close properly but I am sure it can be done.

Does anyone know exactly how scripts increase LI? Does a large script cost more than a small script? Does the quality of the scripting have any bearing? Or is it just a set weight per script?

 

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I've been mulling over the same things this week.  It is a challenge explaining that you need a higher LI to rez and that

the LI will drop when the build has been fixed in place with the scripts removed.

I was actually glad that all my doors are stand alone since that means I can optimize the other linksets that don't contain scripts using Convex Hull.

From what I've observed using Convex Hull on a linkset that just contains cube prims will reduce the LI by half.  Adding a script to that linkset will erase all your savings and I don't think it matters how complex the script is though I would really like to be wrong on that.

[Porky Gorky]

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TatianaDokuchic Varriale wrote:

I was actually glad that all my doors are stand alone since that means I can optimize the other linksets that don't contain scripts using Convex Hull.

 

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Oh yes, I hadn't thought of it that way. I guess keeping windows and anything else that has a script in as separate linksets is the way to go. I will have to test out the script weight question when I am next inworld. If adding more than one script doesn't increase the LI it would be worth linking the doors to the windows, tp's and anything else scripted so you have a minimal number of linksets containing scripts. With the bonus of being able to convert standard prims types to convex hull we should avoid linking any sculpts into a convex hull linkset. When creating a hybrid mesh/sculpt/standard prim build I think segregating the different types of "prims" into their own linksets is the way to go, all the while trying to isolate any prims with scripts in so they can be grouped together.

 

[Robert Galland]

I have been dealing with the same issues and for the houses I sell that I have been able to change to take advantage of the new prim accounting, I let the customers know how many prims they need to rezz the house, what the land impact will be, and emphasize they have to read the instructions to be sure they get the prim LI I intend and advertise. I have also blogged about the issue for my customers and have embedded notecards in my informational notecards about LI versus prim count to educate customers before they become homeowners.

 

There is only so much you can do to educate people about products and, just like a customer who cannot get security to work on group owned land because they have not read my instructions, I know some customers will need to be educated why the house is showing as 450 prims instead of a LI of 285. It's part of the gig and you will find you have grateful customers if you educate them with a smile even if you are silently wishing they had read your instructions.

[Robert Galland]

Sorry for the double post, but that's exactly what I have done with my link sets, Porky.

[TatianaDokuchic Varriale]

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Robert Galland wrote:

I have been dealing with the same issues and for the houses I sell that I have been able to change to take advantage of the new prim accounting, 

[... snip...]

It's part of the gig and you will find you have grateful customers if you educate them with a smile even if you are silently wishing they had read your instructions.

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All good points.  Thanks for sharing them!

[TatianaDokuchic Varriale]

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Porky Gorky wrote:

 

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 When creating a hybrid mesh/sculpt/standard prim build I think segregating the different types of "prims" into their own linksets is the way to go, all the while trying to isolate any prims with scripts in so they can be grouped together.

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 I've been doing the same thing. 

It takes a while to get use to this new way of building but it's also very exciting seeing the results!

[Madeliefste Oh]

I wonder... when you update your existing products for a lower LI, are you going to offer an update to the customers who have brought the product in the past?

Or do you offer it as a new product, that the customer must buy again to profit from the lower LI?

[Porky Gorky]

Yes I am loving the freedom that mesh brings, have been struggling with getting my models fully optimized for SL but learning more tricks every day and feel like I am finally getting there. I took most of last year off from creation so missed the open beta and a lot of other info. Just playing catch up now. It's all groovy. :smileyvery-happy:

[TatianaDokuchic Varriale]

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:

I wonder... when you update your existing products for a lower LI, are you going to offer an update to the customers who have brought the product in the past?

Or do you offer it as a new product, that the customer must buy again to profit from the lower LI?

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Personally, if it's just an update with a lower LI I'm going to give it to them for free. 

For things that are Trans, No Copy I will trade them an old one for a new one.  For things that are Copy I'll give them the update.

Having said that, I don't know how far back in my inventory I'm going to update.  Right now I'm thinking of just phasing out some of the old stuff completely and doing brand new builds that look better and have a better LI.

[Porky Gorky]

Wow Robert, have you really gone back and updated all your older content to take adavantage of convex hull linking? I am proud of you :smileyhappy:.

I've got over 70 prefabs ignoring all other content, Just the mere thought or relinking and repackaging all those builds makes me want call in sick.

I think I may adapt a couple that were are too high prim count by old standards but I can't face optimising all the old content, there is too much. The plan is to just rebuild everything in Mesh, I should be finished by 2019 based on the speed I work:smileyhappy:

[Robert Galland]

I offer mine as updates.

 

Porky, I have hit some of the best sellers, not all of my houses. I may not do all of the houses and instead retire some to implement new products.

[Pamela Galli]

I had not even thought of just telling customers to take the rez script out of the house linkset that has no other scripts.  Not that I have started doing any of this yet, and I am wondering how I will ever find the time. The thought of redoing and then repacking and then uploading to Magic Box, whether furniture or houses - just shoot me now.

 

[TatianaDokuchic Varriale]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

The thought of redoing and then repacking and then uploading to Magic Box, whether furniture or houses - just shoot me now.

 

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I feel your pain.  It certainly sounds like a daunting task doesn't it!  :matte-motes-shocked:

I have so many new things that I want to try that I hate having to go back to the old stuff.  That's one of the reasons that I'll only upgrade selected items and it's going to be a bit at a time so that I can still keep on going with the new. 

[Pamela Galli]

Yes, daunting -- and as you say, it is just too irresistable, making new fabulous things, to tear ourselves away to cut prims.  You and I like reproductions of the finest furniture of certain classic styles, and mesh enables us to do a more faithul job of reproducing them. Just too much fun (and mind blowingly hard).