Rene Erlanger Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Josh Susanto wrote: >Supposing they continue to lose more income from Estate Sims & Mainland plots (Likely to be Commercial areas) from abandonments during 2012? The assumption here is that the decline in land use is primarily attributable to shift of commerce to the SLM. I'm not at all convinced of that. It seems equally likely to me that decline in land use is due primarily to RL factors. In terms of effects of SLM on land use, though, what I see so far is that LL has somewhat effectively managed to prevent SL from turning into a huge shopping mall where there are too few shoppers, due to the fact that no one can afford to rez anything anywhere because land prices are inflated by overproduction of shopping malls. Wrong! The mall culture in SL was due to implode at some point, taking both concurrency and land use down with it. But if that's what you would prefer to see happen, why kill off the SLM freebies? Why not kill off the whole SLM? 900 Estate sims went off the grid in 2011...and with it a lot of commerical areas. I have no clue as to the percentages though. I've gotten feedback from some large Estateowners that have told me they are losing Commerical occupancy....and having to change their sims from Commerical Zones to Mixed Zones.....or Mixed Zones to Residential. I know many a designer have downsized their commercial areas during 2011.....from whole Sim down to 1/4 sim...or just closing altogether and relying on Marketplace instead or just leaving SL. RL recession kicked in during 3rd quarter of 2008, that's 3 and a bit years ago.....i realise there would be a time lag before it hits SL, but i doubt it would be that long. From my traffic readers placed inside my shops.....i can tell there's' far less traffiic (unique Avatars visiting shops) than in the preceding years. Some shops, I've kept records for 4 years. Each year since early 2009, traffic seems less and less. Land prices are cheaper than they ever were.....you can buy prime Mainland plots for next to nothing and Linden Tier costs have remained the same for a number of years. Rents have been reduced on Private Estates by mosts Estate Owners due to price wars. There are less Malls nowadays....but there are also less shops too in-world.......most of that due to shopping traffic being directed to Marketplace. I didn't say kill Freebies on Marketplace or In-world ....it's too late to undo the damage from littering the Grid with freebies over the last 3-4 years. My argument was that Second Life didn't require Freebies in the first instance to be an attractive Game or to survive as a viable VW platform. Linden Lab played it's Ace card....when it made Free to join SL back in 2005/6, that's what led to abnormal growth. It's been proven that other well marketed VW's have all grown during a RL recession without the need of providing it's membership with free in-world products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Josh Susanto wrote: >Most of these Freebies or ultra cheap items...even the ones containing copybotted content.. Why stop there? You haven't even yet characterized the merchants as drug addicts or child r@pists. That's a cheap shot :matte-motes-sour:....selecting part of paragraph. Why not display the context it was written in? "Most of these Freebies or ultra cheap items...even the ones containing copybotted content...will mainly affect & target the most popular keywords and most popular sectors as those are the places that will generate most transactions/ hits, reviews and maybe TP's to any in-world Store." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Josh Susanto wrote: >For my part....i would be satisfied if LL created a "Content Creator Directory" Or they could just create a list of business-licensed people and corporations in RL (listed by LL for a large annual fee), and users could buy all their data from those people and corporations before anything actually gets loaded to SL. Why let regular users create anything in the first place, much less sell it? So as to make Marketplace Merchants more accountable...when loading copyright infringing material or re-selling full perm content in breach of original Creator's EULA.....or loading copybotted products onto Marketplace. How hard can it be? IMVU has a registration process...and they have 6 million products listed on their Catalog shopping site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Josh Susanto wrote: >I'm just curious what level of incomes are derived from Marketplace with nearly 2 million product listings? Most RL businesses fail within 2 years. Doing bigger deals with more expensive products and more conspicuous listings hardly seems to me like a better measure of success than whether someone is actually consistently turning some kind of a profit; ANY kind of actual profit. I am. If you're not, maybe you could try things my way. Lesson #1: How to Use Freebies... No thanks...I don't want to add to the overall problem. I do reasonably well in-world despite having the goal posts moved to Marketplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 > I've gotten feedback from some large Estateowners that have told me they are losing Commerical occupancy....and having to change their sims from Commerical Zones to Mixed Zones.....or Mixed Zones to Residential. Speaking as someone who likes to do things in SL other than go shopping, I would personally consider this to be an improvement. Since noncommercial activity can't be as easily taken off-grid as can commercial activity (as it had been), it stands to reason that if one kind of development is stifling another kind of development, and the fist kind happens to be commercial, the problem can probably be at least partially solved by taking some of the commerce off-grid. I'm pretty sure that's what actually happened, too. Counterintuitively speaking, what should we expect to be more sustainable as a form of rent revenue? Commercial or non-commercial? I understand that we expect commercial rentals to pay for themselves. But that means they also essentially have to. Other types of rentals aren't expected to pay for themselves, so there's actually less danger of them being shut down if they fail to do that. When I finally get into the SL rental property business some day, I sure won't be focused on the commercial. I'll keep it as mixed as possible, in fact. Nothing is more tedious than a sim that's designed like one of the districts in the capital of Brazil before anybody realized WTF the consequences were going to be. >RL recession kicked in during 3rd quarter of 2008, that's 3 and a bit years ago.....i realise there would be a time lag before it hits SL, but i doubt it would be that long. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. The RL recession kicking in (officially no earlier than) in 2008 would have no later effects on SL A) because the RL economy then suddenly stabilized or B) because the recession ended and was actually reversed? I'm unaware that either of these things actually happened, but feel free to enlighten me. Or is there some 3rd possible reason I'm not seeing? Please explain. >From my traffic readers placed inside my shops.....i can tell there's' far less traffiic (unique Avatars visiting shops) than in the preceding years. Yes. Partly because of the SLM and partly because the market for you products is edging closer to total saturation with cheaper or better stuff. 2 of these 3 factors are at least ostensibly open to the influence of decisions you can make and execute on your own. >Land prices are cheaper than they ever were And that's bad because....? >It's been proven that other well marketed VW's have all grown during a RL recession without the need of providing it's membership with free in-world products. Other VW's aren't really very analogous in terms of what users demand from them and why. WOW isn't a very creative place from what I've seen. There's no need to allow freebies there because users contribute so little to the generation of any real content. SL users have always wanted to produce new and valued content of their own, and that tends to mean at least some continuing introduction of component-level materials that don't pose large financial risks. No one needs those in WOW because the whole point of gettting gold is ultimately just to find ways to apply it to advance levels. There are no levels in SL (yet, anyway, thank G#d), so spenfing Linden dollars is a lot more like spending real money, and people are (or should be) somewhat more resistant to spending it or (and this is the point) having to spend it. Marketing-wise, WOW et al don't need to offer a lot of things SL offers, simply because they have essentially fixed narrative application as simulators. That is, because SL doesn't especially simulate any one thing, it can't as easily fail to provide things users won't much want on the basis of those users' assumptions of what the simulator is "about". Ironically, because SL is potentially about everything, it isn't really about anything in particular. For this reason, in order to keep users around long enough to decide for themselves what their own SL experience is "about" (as contrasted with the obvious answer "it's about advancing to the next level") SL needs to offer them an abundance of things which WOW et al do not offer. I believe this includes freebies. The n00bs get excited about houses, cars, shoes and guns. That they can get at least some version of such things for free is exciting to a lot of them just long enough for them to realize they have other reasons to log on. If they had to pay for such things, a lot of people wouldn't stick around long enough to develop a more sophisticated understanding of SL, and that may even include some of your customers. Yes, even yours. Other VW's have grown during the recession not because people are leaving their SL commercial rentals in order to slay dragons and whatnot, but simply because these services are, in fact, cheaper than other forms of entertainment people must or should increasingly forego. The people playing WOW are not people who would be managing malls in SL if it weren't for all the d@mned freebies on the SLM. They're people who get something out of WOW they can't any longer as easily get either from RL or from non-VW types of games. Ask a few of them if you don't believe me. A lot of them go to WOW because it has often become easier (cheaper) than leaving the house in order to see or do something interesting, or to interact with other people. But, to follow your reasoning, all WOW needs to do to kill its own economy should seem to be to offer more free stuff. Is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 >That's a cheap shot **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/html/assets/emoticons/mattemotes/sour.png" border="0" alt=":matte-motes-sour:" title="" />....selecting part of paragraph. Why not display the context it was written in? The fuller context actually only further empasizes the brush of unwarranted contempt with which you are broadly painting the pertinent group of merchants. I really don't understand why you'd want me to rehash the totality of what you said, given that it does the opposite of help your argument in this specific instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 >So as to make Marketplace Merchants more accountable...when loading copyright infringing material or re-selling full perm content in breach of original Creator's EULA.....or loading copybotted products onto Marketplace. OR to create a select group of people who will be automatically favored in any such dispute. Such is not exactly historically unprecedented in other contexts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Rene Erlanger wrote: So as to make Marketplace Merchants more accountable...when loading copyright infringing material or re-selling full perm content in breach of original Creator's EULA.....or loading copybotted products onto Marketplace. I'm all for making merchants more accountable for a fair product. Infringment on copyrights is not only unfair towards the original creator, it is a threat towards hardworking SL creators who make their own stuff as well. As long as SL is a safe harbor under the current DMCA law, the risk for other creators to become victim of the large number of infringed material along the grid is small, but when this sopa bill becomes a law we have big change that a lot of creators who don't infringe on anybody's material become victim of the illegal content in SL. Because then no longer is the individual uploader responsable for the infringement, but LL becomes responsable. They will probably have to close the grid for a while to get rid of all the illegal stuff, when this happens. I don't want to see SL close because of this. So the sooner we can get rid of the materials that violate on copyrights the better. But this has nothing to do with freebies. Not every freebie creator is a copyright infringer, and not every copyright infringer is a freebieseller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Josh Susanto wrote: Speaking as someone who likes to do things in SL other than go shopping, I would personally consider this to be an improvement. Since noncommercial activity can't be as easily taken off-grid as can commercial activity (as it had been), it stands to reason that if one kind of development is stifling another kind of development, and the fist kind happens to be commercial, the problem can probably be at least partially solved by taking some of the commerce off-grid. I'm pretty sure that's what actually happened, too. Counterintuitively speaking, what should we expect to be more sustainable as a form of rent revenue? Commercial or non-commercial? I understand that we expect commercial rentals to pay for themselves. But that means they also essentially have to. Other types of rentals aren't expected to pay for themselves, so there's actually less danger of them being shut down if they fail to do that. When I finally get into the SL rental property business some day, I sure won't be focused on the commercial. I'll keep it as mixed as possible, in fact. Nothing is more tedious than a sim that's designed like one of the districts in the capital of Brazil before anybody realized WTF the consequences were going to be. ....but that's the beauty of Second Life, it can be all things.....you can have Residential lands, Roleplay sims, gaming sims, Commerical sims, Fantasy sims, lands with breedables etc etc. I went to my 1st Meeroo's auction last night and thoroughly enjoyed it, even though..I never ever gotten involved in buying any breedable products.!! The atmosphere was pretty awesome. Commerce was the cornerstone that built Second Life....."creating for profit"... which developed the majority of what you see today on Second Life. Removing In-World commerce or even most of it....will lead to a shrinkage of the main grid as the 2011 Land figures have shown..... and Second Life will be poorer for it! Sim & Land Tiers are still the major part of Linden Lab's income..... If.they lose too much of the Grid, we might see more employee lay-offs like in 2010. I have been renting both commerical & residential sims since 2006.....and you're wrong on that point.! Some of my longest tenants have been Commercial and Roleplay (supported by commercial activities) sims. I've also had long term Residents, but i've also had some very short term Residential tenants (less than a month)....Commercial tenants tend to make a longer commitment , they won't pack and go after a month!! Residential tenants are reliant on RL factors of whether they can continue affording that RL entertainment budget......a Commerical tenant has a chance to break-even or make a profit, it might not cost them anything from their RL income....or far less than the Residential Tenant. Josh Susanto wrote: I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. The RL recession kicking in (officially no earlier than) in 2008 would have no later effects on SL A) because the RL economy then suddenly stabilized or B) because the recession ended and was actually reversed? I'm unaware that either of these things actually happened, but feel free to enlighten me. Or is there some 3rd possible reason I'm not seeing? Please explain. Well, as purse strings tightened in RL, one of the first areas that get's trimmed back are people's leisure & entertainment budgets e.g holidays, restaurants, playing golf, theatres, cinemas, bars etc etc. There's an argument that suggest that indoor entertainment actually gains from a recession...as its cheaper form entertainment. Playing games like Wow, Everquest, IMVU, Second life...or buying an Xbox DVD films, or whatever become more popular at the expense of outdoor activities. Like i keep harping on for the hundreth time....other VW platforms have continually grown over the last 3 years (not SL though) Josh Susanto wrote: Yes. Partly because of the SLM and partly because the market for you products is edging closer to total saturation with cheaper or better stuff. 2 of these 3 factors are at least ostensibly open to the influence of decisions you can make and execute on your own. Partly agree if we're talking since Marketplace introduction (from Mar 2011), but it was also going down earlier i.e since back end of 2009....that was more to do with increased competition as you correctly stated plus the lack of growth in Second Life's concurrency. Josh Susanto wrote: > Land prices are cheaper than they ever were And that's bad because....? Many reasons going back to 2008, when Jack Linden dumped an extra few thousand Mainland sims onto the grid, ....or adding Adult ratings and re-locating all adult activities to Zindra, ...or LL setting all their abandoned lands for sale at $1 L per sqm...thus killing values of neighbouring lands.to...or introducing Linden Homes made up of 100's of sims....or lack of improvements to the Mainland infrastructure (roads & railtracks)...or effectively dealing with griefing...etc etc The list is quite long. Private Estate sim owners are reducing rents, because some of SL' s largest Estates get special deals with LL, which enables them to rent out Homestead or Full sims at cheaper rates than most other Realtors. With the lack of Second Life growth in concurrency, the pool of would-be renters are limited......hence to be competitive rents have to be reduced. Josh Susanto wrote: Other VW's aren't really very analogous in terms of what users demand from them and why. WOW isn't a very creative place from what I've seen. There's no need to allow freebies there because users contribute so little to the generation of any real content. SL users have always wanted to produce new and valued content of their own, and that tends to mean at least some continuing introduction of component-level materials that don't pose large financial risks. No one needs those in WOW because the whole point of gettting gold is ultimately just to find ways to apply it to advance levels. There are no levels in SL (yet, anyway, thank G#d), so spenfing Linden dollars is a lot more like spending real money, and people are (or should be) somewhat more resistant to spending it or (and this is the point) having to spend it. Marketing-wise, WOW et al don't need to offer a lot of things SL offers, simply because they have essentially fixed narrative application as simulators. That is, because SL doesn't especially simulate any one thing, it can't as easily fail to provide things users won't much want on the basis of those users' assumptions of what the simulator is "about". Ironically, because SL is potentially about everything, it isn't really about anything in particular. For this reason, in order to keep users around long enough to decide for themselves what their own SL experience is "about" (as contrasted with the obvious answer "it's about advancing to the next level") SL needs to offer them an abundance of things which WOW et al do not offer. I believe this includes freebies. The n00bs get excited about houses, cars, shoes and guns. That they can get at least some version of such things for free is exciting to a lot of them just long enough for them to realize they have other reasons to log on. If they had to pay for such things, a lot of people wouldn't stick around long enough to develop a more sophisticated understanding of SL, and that may even include some of your customers. Yes, even yours. Other VW's have grown during the recession not because people are leaving their SL commercial rentals in order to slay dragons and whatnot, but simply because these services are, in fact, cheaper than other forms of entertainment people must or should increasingly forego. The people playing WOW are not people who would be managing malls in SL if it weren't for all the d@mned freebies on the SLM. They're people who get something out of WOW they can't any longer as easily get either from RL or from non-VW types of games. Ask a few of them if you don't believe me. A lot of them go to WOW because it has often become easier (cheaper) than leaving the house in order to see or do something interesting, or to interact with other people. But, to follow your reasoning, all WOW needs to do to kill its own economy should seem to be to offer more free stuff. Is that right? I wasn't really thinking of WOW as i classify that as game ....a MMORPG. I was thinking more on the lines of IMVU, Habbo Hotel. Twinity, Active Worlds , Kaneva which are all MMOG...a different category of online entertainment. Second Life main growth explosion was due to Free sign-ups and no longer requiring to pay a one-off fee for Avatar account.... SL growth wasn't due to Freebies. SL would have grown regardless of Freebies or not.....say LL decided that when selecting "PAY" or "BUY" it had to be 1 L at a minimum (that could have been programmed in) That 1 Linden $ minimum sale price would have made a big difference to inventory sizes. 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Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Josh Susanto wrote: >That's a cheap shot **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**: :matte-motes-sour:....selecting part of paragraph. Why not display the context it was written in? > The fuller context actually only further empasizes the brush of unwarranted contempt with which you are broadly painting the pertinent group of merchants. I really don't understand why you'd want me to rehash the totality of what you said, given that it does the opposite of help your argument in this specific instance. I was making a statement....and not any contemptious remark about Freebies. Micky was wondering why she could not see Freebies ...when she searches "Lime Green Glass" or other obscure search terms.....I only stated the obvious that you'll see the largest amount Freebies in the most popular sectors (furniture, skins, fashion, hair etc)......i doubt you'll see many freebies for say "Crystal Chandeliers" for example. There wasn't a single Freebie out of 379 entries....and only 6 Dollarbies. (4 of which were in the first 12 under "Relevance") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Josh Susanto wrote: >"So as to make Marketplace Merchants more accountable...when loading copyright infringing material or re-selling full perm content in breach of original Creator's EULA.....or loading copybotted products onto Marketplace." OR to create a select group of people who will be automatically favored in any such dispute. Such is not exactly historically unprecedented in other contexts. Nope...if you want to list on Marketplace one should have to register at a minimum providing real name and address. If you can't make that little step.....then continue with your anonymity selling your products In-world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 You're right....but that message had nothing to do with Freebies sellers. I felt it's just a general requirement that LL should impose if one wants to list products on Marketplace (regardless of Product pricing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 >....but that's the beauty of Second Life, it can be all things.....you can have Residential lands, Roleplay sims, gaming sims, Commerical sims, Fantasy sims, lands with breedables etc etc. I went to my 1st Meeroo's auction last night and thoroughly enjoyed it, even though..I never ever gotten involved in buying any breedable products.!! The atmosphere was pretty awesome. The breedables thing basically makes me want to vomit, but that's not reason to get rid of it. The beauty of SL is that it's not about what I say it's about or about what you say it's about. It's about whatever it happens to be about. I not only respect that, but support it. >Commerce was the cornerstone that built Second Life....."creating for profit"... which developed the majority of what you see today on Second Life. At what point can you tell me SL was not already inundated with freebies? I was when I got here, and that wasn't all that recent. There were a few people complaining about all the freebies even back then. And yet, somehow, people were making money. Maybe because they were focused on making better stuff instead of just complaining about freebies. >Removing In-World commerce or even most of it....will lead to a shrinkage of the main grid as the 2011 Land figures have shown..... and Second Life will be poorer for it! Sim & Land Tiers are still the major part of Linden Lab's income..... If.they lose too much of the Grid, we might see more employee lay-offs like in 2010. Layoffs are part of a normal adaptive process. If the grid has to get smaller, it has to get smaller. Telling people they need to stop selling dollarbies because LL can't think of some other even wackier scheme to avoid letting someone go whose work doesn't warrant their pay is well.... just whacky. When LL becomes some kind of even more transparent welfare program for underperforming people, you'll at least not have to worry about me posting freebies anymore. But assuming that grid size, itself, is some kind of problem, it's not necessarily a problem that should be solved by forcing people to buy things in-world and absorbing more operational costs to merchants, and further subsidizing real estate speculators who can't come up with any other way to compensate for grid expansion than to slap up a strip mall and put any d@mned thing you can think of inside it on the off chance that anybody will want any of it. From what I can see so far, SLM did not move a significant portion of the higher-quality products off the grid. It mostly moved marginal stuff off-grid to where it is more profitable due to lower marketing costs. But instead of being excited about the massive sweep-up of kitsch and kipple, you choose to focus on the incidental side effect that even more marginal stuff now exists off-grid than existed on-grid before. Your solution for your own inability to do better in SLM seems to be to push all the marginal stuff back on-grid, presumably with a lot of the newer marginal stuff to follow it almost automatically. And all so that people you imagine are looking for your SLM products don't have to press one extra button. Is that right? If you think the junk is all just going to disappear because it costs too much to market in-world, guess again. That didn't stop the people trying to sell me untextured 2-prim urns made out of torus segments for 10L while the stalls on their left and right remained unrented, and it didn't stop others from keeping those stalls rezzed in case someone else wanted to try to sell more such items. The million-plus things that didn't make it to market in the first place before Xstreet now already exist. If they can't be sold on SLM and can't make a profit in-world as dollarbies, many of them will just become free copymods and spread like a fungus all around you without generating any rent or other revenue for you or LL, and only offering you a kind of competition that will only be even harder to track and for which to compensate. >Some of my longest tenants have been Commercial and Roleplay (supported by commercial activities) sims. I've also had long term Residents, but i've also had some very short term Residential tenants (less than a month)....Commercial tenants tend to make a longer commitment , they won't pack and go after a month!! This could be true in your case, but it's the opposite of what I have observed more generally. Commercial ventures that look profitable tend to stay fixed. But even before Xstreet, most of them didn't look to me like they could be self-sustaining. I've seen residential places change less, but if you've only been considering successful commercial businesses (your tentants?), you're missing most of the comparative picture. And most commercial rentals are not strictly tied to role-play. If they were, maybe more of them would be as sustainable as your tenants have been. >Residential tenants are reliant on RL factors of whether they can continue affording that RL entertainment budget......a Commerical tenant has a chance to break-even or make a profit, it might not cost them anything from their RL income....or far less than the Residential Tenant. Residential tenants are affected by RL factors. Commercial tenants are affected by both RL factors and SL factors. Josh Susanto wrote: I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. The RL recession kicking in (officially no earlier than) in 2008 would have no later effects on SL A) because the RL economy then suddenly stabilized or B) because the recession ended and was actually reversed? I'm unaware that either of these things actually happened, but feel free to enlighten me. Or is there some 3rd possible reason I'm not seeing? Please explain. >Well, as purse strings tightened in RL, one of the first areas that get's trimmed back are people's leisure & entertainment budgets e.g holidays, restaurants, playing golf, theatres, cinemas, bars etc etc. There's an argument that suggest that indoor entertainment actually gains from a recession...as its cheaper form entertainment. Understood. That's why porn is recession-proof, for example. People pay more for it when they have more money, or when it's cheaper than the logistics of some preferred alternative. But the total dynamic of VW's is a little more complex than that. To reduce the uneven response of all of them to the sudden ease of proliferation of free content in one specific case is not doing justice to the many other ways in which their users and manners of use must differ. >Playing games like Wow, Everquest, IMVU, Second life...or buying an Xbox DVD films, or whatever become more popular at the expense of outdoor activities. Like i keep harping on for the hundreth time....other VW platforms have continually grown over the last 3 years (not SL though) SL's inability to better compete for these new users probably has more to do with A) huge differences in terms of the ability of marketing to communicate how satisfaction is to be derived from the medium or B) too many freebies? B? Really? Josh Susanto wrote: Yes. Partly because of the SLM and partly because the market for you products is edging closer to total saturation with cheaper or better stuff. 2 of these 3 factors are at least ostensibly open to the influence of decisions you can make and execute on your own. >Partly agree if we're talking since Marketplace introduction (from Mar 2011), but it was also going down earlier i.e since back end of 2009....that was more to do with increased competition as you correctly stated plus the lack of growth in Second Life's concurrency. SL hasn't done all that badly if you look at the whole scenario. If you compare what happened with Friendster - Tribe.net - Myspace - Facebook, SL seems more like Tribe.net than like Friendster or Myspace in its own context with WOW et al. Tribe.net use is not exactly exploding. but it just seem to keep ticking while the Orkuts and whatnot seem to have mostly sputtered out and exist only in ghostlike states. The reason being that, while the user pool is smaller, their interest is more sustainable. LL shouldn't be focused on competing with Wow any more than they were focused on competing with Fluff Friends or Mafia Wars. It's easy to confuse VW's as appealing to the same people for the same reason merely on the basis that they are all VW's. But that just isn't how it works. SL is more of a VW for Tribe.net users, whereas IMVU is probably more for Facebook users. And we both know it isn't really that simple, either. The point is that RL consumers don't have fixed time or other budgets for VW's any more than they do for social networking sites or for porn or for gambling or for anything else that is discretionary. SL hasn't lost users to WOW over the freebies issue because SL hasn't lost users to WOW because there is no fixed number of users or user hours or user dollars. If SL and IMVU and WOW can all out-permform porn and gambling sites, they can all grow. The question is just whether the freebies on SLM improve or detract from total performance. I think they help more than they hurt, and I think I've already explained why. Josh Susanto wrote: > Land prices are cheaper than they ever were And that's bad because....? >Many reasons going back to 2008, when Jack Linden dumped an extra few thousand Mainland sims onto the grid, ....or adding Adult ratings and re-locating all adult activities to Zindra, ...or LL setting all their abandoned lands for sale at $1 L per sqm...thus killing values of neighbouring lands.to...or introducing Linden Homes made up of 100's of sims....or lack of improvements to the Mainland infrastructure (roads & railtracks)...or effectively dealing with griefing...etc etc The list is quite long. These are different effects from different actions. Equating these stupid things with SLM freebies as beign stupid merely because they each have the effect of decreasing land value can, by logical extension, be construed as meaning that anything that makes or keeps land values any lower than they might be is invariably bad. That is; if lower land value is always bad, then higher land value is always good (at least as consistent with your explanation). So maybe LL could just gradually shut down sims until everyone is crammed into some tiny little corner of the mainland than only a handful of very rich and very insane people in various parts of RL are willing to keep paying for. How much do you think the richest, most insane user would pay to own the very last sim? I bet the price would be pretty high... so that's a good idea... right? >Private Estate sim owners are reducing rents, because some of SL' s largest Estates get special deals with LL, which enables them to rent out Homestead or Full sims at cheaper rates than most other Realtors. With the lack of Second Life growth in concurrency, the pool of would-be renters are limited......hence to be competitive rents have to be reduced. I think the degree of correlation between general concurrency and rental demand has not been very well demonstrated. Part of the matter is the causal order of things. You say people aren't renting because they aren't logging on. I say maybe they aren't logging on because they don't see the point if they can't pay the rent, even at a lower price. Josh Susanto wrote:Other VW's aren't really very analogous in terms of what users demand from them and why. WOW isn't a very creative place from what I've seen. There's no need to allow freebies there because users contribute so little to the generation of any real content. SL users have always wanted to produce new and valued content of their own, and that tends to mean at least some continuing introduction of component-level materials that don't pose large financial risks. No one needs those in WOW because the whole point of gettting gold is ultimately just to find ways to apply it to advance levels. There are no levels in SL (yet, anyway, thank G#d), so spenfing Linden dollars is a lot more like spending real money, and people are (or should be) somewhat more resistant to spending it or (and this is the point) having to spend it. Marketing-wise, WOW et al don't need to offer a lot of things SL offers, simply because they have essentially fixed narrative application as simulators. That is, because SL doesn't especially simulate any one thing, it can't as easily fail to provide things users won't much want on the basis of those users' assumptions of what the simulator is "about". Ironically, because SL is potentially about everything, it isn't really about anything in particular. For this reason, in order to keep users around long enough to decide for themselves what their own SL experience is "about" (as contrasted with the obvious answer "it's about advancing to the next level") SL needs to offer them an abundance of things which WOW et al do not offer. I believe this includes freebies. The n00bs get excited about houses, cars, shoes and guns. That they can get at least some version of such things for free is exciting to a lot of them just long enough for them to realize they have other reasons to log on. If they had to pay for such things, a lot of people wouldn't stick around long enough to develop a more sophisticated understanding of SL, and that may even include some of your customers. Yes, even yours. Other VW's have grown during the recession not because people are leaving their SL commercial rentals in order to slay dragons and whatnot, but simply because these services are, in fact, cheaper than other forms of entertainment people must or should increasingly forego. The people playing WOW are not people who would be managing malls in SL if it weren't for all the d@mned freebies on the SLM. They're people who get something out of WOW they can't any longer as easily get either from RL or from non-VW types of games. Ask a few of them if you don't believe me. A lot of them go to WOW because it has often become easier (cheaper) than leaving the house in order to see or do something interesting, or to interact with other people. But, to follow your reasoning, all WOW needs to do to kill its own economy should seem to be to offer more free stuff. Is that right? >I wasn't really thinking of WOW as i classify that as game ....a MMORPG. I was thinking more on the lines of IMVU, Habbo Hotel. Twinity, Active Worlds , Kaneva which are all MMOG...a different category of online entertainment. Well, they have had almost nowhere to go but up, so if they were not growing during this period, they wouldn't exist in order for you to report their growth. Shouldn't we also have a list of similar services which did not grow? Saying they're all growing while SL isn't growing is a bit unfair if we fail to include those which haven't even done well enough to draw attention from the media which purport ot inform you of the total pattern. >Second Life main growth explosion was due to Free sign-ups and no longer requiring to pay a one-off fee for Avatar account.... SL growth wasn't due to Freebies. Freebies were necessary to sustain interest by those who signed up for free. I know this because I was one of them, and there were just barely enough freebies to keep me around until I figured out how to make any money rather than paying in. Among my fellow n00bs, the question of how to avoid paying anything in in order to really get anything done was the #1 topic of conversation for a long time. Without freebies, I wouldn't have stayed, and a lot of other people I know also would not have stayed. Maybe that would have been better for you. OK. There goes the neighborhood. But if I shouldn't have been allowed or encouraged to stay, that's a genie that should have been put back into the bottle a long time ago. Now SL has a bottom-feeder culture of free user accounts and or almost free products, and I'm part of it. I'm not going to change, so unless SL is going to change in a way that tells me and about a million other people to basically fcuk off, the rest of you are probably just going to have to accept it. Even killing the proliferation of new freebies at this point wouldn't get rid of very many of us. There are now some exponentially larger number of free copymods floating around than there were when I first came. And a lot of them are much better kinds of things, too. >SL would have grown regardless of Freebies or not.....say LL decided that when selecting "PAY" or "BUY" it had to be 1 L at a minimum (that could have been programmed in) That 1 Linden $ minimum sale price would have made a big difference to inventory sizes. This is a purely counterfactual argument, rooted firmly in the past subjunctive. Maybe if that had happened, there could, instead, have been some kind of butterfly effect causing WW III in RL. Anything is possible, I suppose. But the fact is, we don't know what would have happened, and your model is based on a small set of very simple assumptions. What we do know is that if it had grown, it would not have grown into what it is now. There would inevitably be some differences in the user pool that would have real consequences in terms of what was created and what was not created. That could affect LL policy in ways we can only begin to imagine. We're lucky that nothing worse has happened than what has happened. SL is still up and running, and allowing each of us to make a profit if we choose to. But rather than focus on that, you're preferring to see the situation as a defective version of some more perfect scenario that you imagine would have automatically unfolded if what you describe had been done differently; a scenario which you now imply can be appreciably recovered simply by shutting down the freebies on SLM. But why not just ask LL to install some kind of function that just reverses time in-world every time something doesn't go your way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Sorry Josh...can't read you reply....it's just way too long....and its too hard to de-cypher what i wrote and what you wrote......there is a "Quote" button when you write messages...you should use it and makes it easier for others to read. Besides we're from 2 different schools of thought...and we're not going to agree on anything. I joined in 2006, and there were Freebies around then....but i rarely went hunting for them. The quality wasn't that good compared to nowadays. There was also a diffferent mentality back in those days....we didn't expect free things and if we did get something nice that was free, we were deeply grateful . Nowadays it seems a large section of the community expect high quality free items. Thats the biggest change from back then....and 2012. I'm not saying to get rid of Freebies in any venue (MP or In-World)...it's too late for that....but I do believe Second Life would have been successful with or without them. The main draw..is that it doesn't cost anything to join SL....that's the key! Don't be so niave, of course Grid size matters when LL are employing X amount of staff. Losing 900 Estate sims last year, wipes off at least 2.5 mllion USD income in 2012....and we don't even know about the amount of lands abandoned on Mainland continents. I guess thats why Rodvik announced that LL will be involved in devloping other revenue streams (i.e products), so that they're not so reliant on SL Land income as they are now. You do rabbit on and make assumptions what i think they should do with Freebies on MP or what they should do In-world. Marketplace has always been secondary environment to me....and will always continue to be. If you want millions of Freebies listed on Marketplace, than so be it. My only dog in this race....is that Marketplace has been heavily promoted inside the LL Viewers and responsible for driving people to MP...instead of in-world commerical areas. The sections i did read....are just pure jibberish, every reply I made, you want to associate Freebies to it....when my quotes had nothing to do with Freebies at all. Your Land comments are total nonsense.....you have no experience of running an multi-sim Estate, yet you make all those glorious assumptions regaring residential tenants and commerical tenants. You obviously can't grasp things properly as i stated that I rent both "Commercial sims and Roleplay sims" as 2 separate types of rentals....the latter being supported by commercial activities (a Market)...they are not one and the same. It's like you have a chip on your shoulder......that you resent that people can actually afford Sims. You forget Estates provide a valuable service to hundred of thousands of Land renters...who cannot afford an entire sims nor want to live on Mainland and pay LL premium subs fees. Without the growth of Estate sims, and without people willing to take the plunge and make that committment to SL, we probably wouldn't have a Second Life grid.....or it would be very small on a par with Open Sim grids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 >I was making a statement....and not any contemptious remark about Freebies. Micky was wondering why she could not see Freebies ...when she searches "Lime Green Glass" or other obscure search terms.....I only stated the obvious that you'll see the largest amount Freebies in the most popular sectors (furniture, skins, fashion, hair etc)......i doubt you'll see many freebies for say "Crystal Chandeliers" for example. There wasn't a single Freebie out of 379 entries....and only 6 Dollarbies. (4 of which were in the first 12 under "Relevance") Then what was the point of characterizing the items as largely copybotted; the very point of your passage I obviously mean to emphasize by cutting the thign down to one line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 >Nope...if you want to list on Marketplace one should have to register at a minimum providing real name and address. If you can't make that little step.....then continue with your anonymity selling your products In-world. If that's what we're actually talking about here, then, sure, yes. But is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 You don't "have a dog in this race" because you don't even use marketplace. You have no clue what is going on, and are living in 2006, and disgruntled because whatever you were doing in 2006 is not working for you now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Josh Susanto wrote: >I was making a statement....and not any contemptious remark about Freebies. Micky was wondering why she could not see Freebies ...when she searches "Lime Green Glass" or other obscure search terms.....I only stated the obvious that you'll see the largest amount Freebies in the most popular sectors (furniture, skins, fashion, hair etc)......i doubt you'll see many freebies for say "Crystal Chandeliers" for example. There wasn't a single Freebie out of 379 entries....and only 6 Dollarbies. (4 of which were in the first 12 under "Relevance") Then what was the point of characterizing the items as largely copybotted; the very point of your passage I obviously mean to emphasize by cutting the thign down to one line? Josh - he doesn't even use marketplace. He said he doesn't even shop on marketplace. I was looking for "lime green glass" as a texture. Textures is a very popular category. I believe that the number was 150k He's just rambling and didn't even do any searches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Josh Susanto wrote: >I was making a statement....and not any contemptious remark about Freebies. Micky was wondering why she could not see Freebies ...when she searches "Lime Green Glass" or other obscure search terms.....I only stated the obvious that you'll see the largest amount Freebies in the most popular sectors (furniture, skins, fashion, hair etc)......i doubt you'll see many freebies for say "Crystal Chandeliers" for example. There wasn't a single Freebie out of 379 entries....and only 6 Dollarbies. (4 of which were in the first 12 under "Relevance") Then what was the point of characterizing the items as largely copybotted; the very point of your passage I obviously mean to emphasize by cutting the thign down to one line? There you go twisting my words again...where did I say Freebies were largely copybotted items.....i used it as an example of a sub-group....you can add other sub-groups....those that infringe copyright material....or those that re-sell or distribute full-perm products without permission. How hard is it to figure out the "Quote" option.? To any outsider reading your message...it looks like you wrote the entire message and near the end of it, started to contradict yourself. I know you're one of these open-source advocates and would prefer that everything in SL were FREE, that much is obvious to me. You shun commercialism, you hate that some folk are prepared to spend money on the game by leasing Sims or land from Linden Lab. You can't stand looking at commercialism In-World...and would rather it all be shunted off the grid to one side (i.e Marketplace) IMO you'd be better off on some of those Open Sim Grids, which are crawling with Open-Sourceniks!....there you would find your Utopia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Josh Susanto wrote: >Nope...if you want to list on Marketplace one should have to register at a minimum providing real name and address. If you can't make that little step.....then continue with your anonymity selling your products In-world. If that's what we're actually talking about here, then, sure, yes. But is it? My above quote (in blue), has nothing to do with Freebies.....its just a suggestion what Linden Lab should do with Marketplace....and might help reduce the amount of infringements. Anyway with this new proposed SOPA laws coming from the U.S......LInden Lab might well have to tighten up their Merchant policies especially when it comes to copyright material being pirated from other sources. (which we have plenty of) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Mickey Vandeverre wrote: You don't "have a dog in this race" because you don't even use marketplace. You have no clue what is going on, and are living in 2006, and disgruntled because whatever you were doing in 2006 is not working for you now. You really are one ignorant person! Haven't I listed on Marketplace ? So that must have been during 2011? I remember having to re-do all the Descriptions Fields as they were ruined through the migration process. I have news for you.....I always continued making sales on Marketplace! :matte-motes-wink-tongue: Being away from SL for 7/ 8 mths...i didn't have much chance in optimising keywords on my MP Store or add items to it.. When I arrived back to SL, there were more important tasks In-world to worry about. I view Marketplace as a supplement (an add-on) to my in-world businesses, it always been that way!. Yes, I do have a "dog in the race"....I want commerce to return to the Grid. I signed up to a 3D Virtual World platform not to a 2D glorified Shopping site. Why should i be disgruntled Mickey? .....I still possess all my land & commercial holdings in SL? Have you? :matte-motes-tongue: So you've learnt how to use Twitter, Faceboook, blogs and how to effect your obscure keywords on Google main search...and that makes you hip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Josh - he doesn't even use marketplace. He said he doesn't even shop on marketplace. I was looking for "lime green glass" as a texture. Textures is a very popular category. I believe that the number was 150k He's just rambling and didn't even do any searches. Listen to yourself! If you ever manage to learn how to read properly.....you'd know from this thread alone, that I stated my usage of Marketplace Search to help locate the more obscure products...and then buy those same products from their In-world stores. The reason being, I want to support the in-world economy. (and less chance of a non-delivery too :matte-motes-sunglasses-1:) What has 150k listed textures have to do with ...when there isn't a single one for "lime green glass"! Who is rambling now? :matte-motes-tongue: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 That you're responding to my my message without reading it is pretty clear from what you've posted. For my part, I at least like to know what I'm responding to, and I think that might actually even be as important as formatting issues. But if the concensus here is otherwise, I'll certainly take that into consideration. I joined in 2006 and it seems like my own experience was pretty different from yours. Many of the n00bs I met appreciated the freebies, but didn't like that it was practically impossible to set up any kind of business without paying something in first; something that can be hard to do while working the McD drive-thru window and getting wages garnished for student loan debt. There was a huge wave of us who were not even using our own computers to generate content we were giving each other for free just as a way of networking. For better or for worse, many of us are still around, if only due to things like camping, which is something I did plenty of at first. >I'm not saying to get rid of Freebies in any venue (MP or In-World)...it's too late for that.... On the topic of not bothering to read things, did you read the title of this thread? >but I do believe Second Life would have been successful with or without them. Some form of success, yes. Probably a very narrow, elitist one. I guess that's fine, but it's not what a majority of SL proponents have ever espoused as a desireable outcome. >The main draw..is that it doesn't cost anything to join SL....that's the key! That is the main draw, I agree. >Don't be so niave, of course Grid size matters when LL are employing X amount of staff. Yes. And if you'd read that to which you respond, you'd see that I acknowledge that. I just don't think that fudging the market system in various ways (ie: obstructing freebies), like Rube Goldberg working for Enron, is really a good plan; especially not in terms of doing that simply to use a grid larger than what the real market can sustain just to provide jobs for a handful of coders who think their education automatically entitles them to do something more lucrative than take positions like the one I left open in 2008 at the drive-thru window of McD, 16&Potrero, SF. >Losing 900 Estate sims last year, wipes off at least 2.5 mllion USD income in 2012....and we don't even know about the amount of lands abandoned on Mainland continents. So you're saying that 2.5 million USD in revenue was ultimately lost to the system as a whole due to freebies? Due to SLM being promoted over in-world business? Due to a failure to adequately compensate for the grid being too big, rather than simply making it the right size? Due to what, exactly? >I guess thats why Rodvik announced that LL will be involved in devloping other revenue streams (i.e products), so that they're not so reliant on SL Land income as they are now. Yes. Now that he has determined, the hard way, that some of the objects in the world are not nails, he's decided to consider the possibility of some other tool than the hammer. >My only dog in this race....is that Marketplace has been heavily promoted inside the LL Viewers and responsible for driving people to MP...instead of in-world commerical areas. If that's really all you're on about, I think that would be a good point. Except that I'm somehow not being subjected to the SLM promotion you describe. What are you getting? Popups? Invasive sound bites? Automated IM's? What I see is that a almost a majority of random teleports used to take me to some kind of mall that was half empty and half full of stuff I wouldn't even try to sell if I'd made it myself, and that that condition has improved greatly in the last 3 years. OTOH, I use 3rd party viewers, so maybe that explains why I'm not seeing what you're not seeing. If that's the explanation, maybe you could do your own part on this issue by using your in-world locations to promote the use of 3rd-party viewers. >The sections i did read....are just pure jibberish, Can you give me an example? >every reply I made, you want to associate Freebies to it....when my quotes had nothing to do with Freebies at all. That you insult both freebies and the merchants who offer them, as a pattern within your collection of messages on this thread should tend to greatly confuse readers about what exactly you think is the problem and what exaclty you think should be done about it. >It's like you have a chip on your shoulder......that you resent that people can actually afford Sims. What I resent is that I've seen repeated efforts, at least in print, to cut the bottom rung off the economic ladder in SL, just as people have tried to cut it off in RL. Repeated suggestions on this forum (and elsewhere) that LL should either charge more fees to those who can least afford them, or withdraw or limit services to those who can least afford to have them withdrawn or limited, seems to me to be rooted in a mentality of even greater privelege and special protection for a class of people who are already priveleged and specially protected. I DO resent that. But it's not the same thing as simply resenting that people can actually afford sims. I have had very good experiences with plenty of sim owners, and there's nothing about merely owning a sim that makes anyone any better or worse than me or than anybody else. But if they can't demand profitable rents with too large a grid, trying to instead explain their woes as having much of anything to do either with freebies or with the SLM is just a convenient way of putting the blame on comparatively powerless SL riff-raff, rather than on LL, whom many sim owners seem to be unable to openly criticize for anything, ever. I'm (again) reminded of the Arabic story in which the guy enlists all his neighbors to help him look for his keys in his yard, only to later explain that he last saw them inside his house "but the light there isn't as good". (and Here comed Godwin). These sim owners can either be like Germans who explained the Kaiser's invasion of France as a stupid waste, or they can be like those whose voices drowned out the others; Germans who preferred to focus on who they found convenient to believe had "caused to fail" (did not pay to allow succeed) the invasion. Maybe I have a better analogy. Cats can infect pet owners with diseases. Sure. Having a cat in the home increases exposure to some things. OK. True. But Colombians use the presence of a cat anywhere even near the home to explain almost any medical problem. My neighbor told us of a couple whose child developed hydrocephalia (a known genetic condition) "due to being near a cat". I had to wonder if she meant that the Catholic priest who had performed a marriage between brother and sister also happened to be the cat in question. Probably not (LL is the priest in this analogy if that wasn't clear to you). Maybe the cats here are also giving all those people syphillis, just like Americans almost seem to believe that foreskins are causing Africans to spontaneously develop HIV out of thin air. But you get the idea (no?). We should all know that the problem is a too-large grid, even if that also means a handful of extra (fiscally counterproductive) positions at LL. Deciding to identify the problem as something else (or, I expect, an endless series of other things as the problem continues not to go go away) is like insisting on smaller furniture or insisting the walls be moved so that no one has to acknowledge the elephant in the living room. It's in the same analytic category with superstition, and when it pops up, we should be quick both to point this out, and to persuasively explain why it is so. SLM merchants and purveyors of freebies did not expand the grid or do anything in particular to encourage it to be expanded. LL both expanded the grid and has kept it expanded. And these remain simple historical facts, even if they also mean that we can't just conveniently shift blame for low land value to someone else with even less power in SL. >You forget Estates provide a valuable service to hundred of thousands of Land renters...who cannot afford an entire sims nor want to live on Mainland and pay LL premium subs fees. I normally pay for the land I use. I'm not paid up at the moment only because the sim owner fails to respond to repeated inquiries about expected changes to rental agreement and price which she and I earlier agreed needed to be addressed by now. I am extremely confident that whatever the price is, I'll be able to pay several months in advance, if allowed to do so. >Without the growth of Estate sims, and without people willing to take the plunge and make that committment to SL, we probably wouldn't have a Second Life grid.....or it would be very small on a par with Open Sim grids. I see that big chunks of money do have to come from somewhere in order for the grid to sustain at any size, and I see that this is a serious investment question to people who get involved with it. But if the core problem is that the grid is too big, that's what should be addressed; not a bunch of other minor and ambiguous contributory variables (such as freebies, or even SLM promotion vs in-world promotion), at least while the core problem goes unaddressed. If LL want to keep polishing the turd that is their excessive grid size, there may be nothing we can do about it, and it will still be a turd in any case. But to allow ourselves to be enlisted in the turd-polishing process is an abuse of our talents, especially since the "larger grid keeps people employed" argument would seem to describe an existing LL subsidy for more professional turd-polishers in-house; a subsidy which users are already paying. BTW: has it ever occurred to you that one aspect of grid expansion is that by simply making things further apart, walk-thru commerce traffic has been reduced? It used to be that if I walked from through 5 sims, at least one of them would have something worth seeing in it. For impulse shoppers and people marketing to them, this was no doubt a better scenario, even if I personally think most of what was being bought and sold was crap (different problem; as a capitalist, I have to at least somewhat respect people buying and selling crap). Some of the reduced rate of commercial land use is due to a decline in business in-turn attributable to both RL factors and to changes to the structure of market technology for SL products. But some of it is also due simply to things simply being more spread out. This is a bit of a chicken-and-egg question, but I think you know how I opine, given that grid expansion was probably not a decision based on the observation that commercial land use was already in decline. As happy as I may be to see fewer half-empty malls everywhere, the need to randomly teleport around in order to find them because it's at least no slower than walking through basically dead sims seems like something that would also drive people to instead shop SLM. Can I be totally wrong about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Rene Erlanger wrote: Mickey Vandeverre wrote: You don't "have a dog in this race" because you don't even use marketplace. You have no clue what is going on, and are living in 2006, and disgruntled because whatever you were doing in 2006 is not working for you now. You really are one ignorant person! I listed on Marketplace didn't I? So that must have been during 2011? I remember having to re-do all the Descriptions Fields as they were ruined through the migration process. I have news for you.....I always continued making sales on Marketplace! :matte-motes-wink-tongue: Being away from SL for 7/ 8 mths...i didn't have much chance in optimising keywords on my MP Store or add items to it.. When I arrived back to SL, there were more important tasks In-world to worry about. I view Marketplace as a supplement (an add-on) to my in-world businesses, it always been that way!. Yes, I do have a "dog in the race"....I want commerce to return to the Grid. I signed up to a 3D Virtual World platform not to a 2D glorified Shopping site. "Yes, I do have a "dog in the race"....I want commerce to return to the Grid. I signed up to a 3D Virtual World platform not to a 2D glorified Shopping site." then you are living in another year. 2010 perhaps. People use the marketplace for convenience to save time and to shop from their home or office in physical world. They do it all day long. If you cannot grasp that, from a change in numbers, then you are not using marketplace. Good luck trying to convince customers to give up that convenience. You can call me ignorant all day long, but when you keep posting that you don't have a clue what the numbers are on the marketplace.....one has to wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarissa Lowell Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Rene Erlanger wrote: It's been proven that other well marketed VW's have all grown during a RL recession without the need of providing it's membership with free in-world products. Even ones like SL that don't "entertain" but make the person use their own imagination and work to find the fun? Not just an MMPORG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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