Mesh: 10 Years Ago

[Nalates Urriah]

Now in 2023, I see some people trying to sort out how to work with mesh and manage its render cost. In 2012 and for the next 3 or 4 years residents were figuring out how to tweak mesh and get the most for the least render cost. A resident that did considerable testing to divine what the viewer was doing with mesh and LOD was Drongle McMahon. See @Drongle McMahon posts in the period 2012 to 2015. Drongle's last post was in 2017. Bummer. Drongle was a major asset for residents to turn to.

I suggest you open Drongle's forum content page and read through posts for the information you need. This is not the best way to learn this stuff. It is totally unorganized. Drogle was answering and asking questions pertinent at the time. So, there was a bit of a sequence at the time.

I have not found anyone that gets as deep into the tech as Drongle nor that explains it as well nor bases their thinking on the deep testing Drongle did.

Drongle looks into Sculpty vs Mesh. At the time Sculpties were still a thing and people were delving into the intricacies of how far sculpties could be pushed.

I suggest that if you find a particularly helpful post you link to it here and say what helped.

DO NOT post in those old threads. If you want to discuss a point, start a new thread and reference the old stuff.

 

 

 

[Nalates Urriah]

  

On 6/6/2023 at 3:44 PM, cirleen said:

I wish the default LOD for a viewer was 4.000. The lower settings only show 1.25 where I can't see any low LOD things from across the room. I need a cane to stop bumping into things. The only way is to go in manually on the viewer menu Advanced - Show Debug Settings - then type "RenderVolumeLODFactor" into the box, "rendervol" will get you there. Then change the number to 4.000 so I don't keep stumbling around blindly on things like a drunk. Most things will show at a 2.000 viewer LOD setting, but that's the default for Ultra, which is usually too boggy to use for anything other than taking pictures. The problem objects are usually individual objects like cars and low prim stuff like from Prim Possible. It's usually not a scenery problem. I respect creators who have a high LOD, it's annoying to buy a new car and not be able to see it.

There is a reason the default is 1.00 in the SL viewer. Real-time rendering of 3D worlds is still a heavy load on even the newest computers. The use of LOD reduces the amount of information that has to be downloaded and the amount of effort the computer needs to render the scene. The viewer and servers send ONLY the LOD model needed for the viewer at a given distance. Bumping up the viewer to 4.0 forces the system to download the high poly model even if it will only cover a 10x10px area of the screen. The computer cannot show the detail contained in the high poly model. But it has to render every polygon anyway.

Unfortunately, this affects more than the user setting their viewer to 4.0. It affects everyone in the region. Fortunately, network speeds and the addition of CDN make it tolerable. Still it sucks because most have no technical knowledge of how these systems work.

When things disintegrate at a distance it is because the designer did not know how to use LOD. Setting your viewer to 4.00 covers up the bad design. The lame designer can get by with the top-level high poly LOD model. Models 2 to 4 are supposed to degrade the model gracefully and maintain the shape of the item only omitting details. But good LOD design is a manual process for any complex model. The automated stuff just never does as well.

On 6/6/2023 at 3:51 PM, Bagnu said:

I find if the LOD is too high, it disintegrates at a distance.  But my default setting is one notch below max.

You are using poorly designed LOD models. If you use the viewer's upload tools to make your LOD models this is what happens. In 2013 most of the modelers in SL were making all four models in Blender. When done right a 1000 poly house (LOD 1) can be incrementally reduced to 12 to 18 polys (LOD 4) and maintain its shape.

Pro modelers may reduce the house to 1 polygon and plaster a picture of the house on the polygon. Of course, one has to be able to know from where the house is to be viewed. More often a model is reduced to 5 or 6 polygons and images for the low poly model. When I make a couch or chair I go for a 5 poly LOD 4 model.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Nalates Urriah

[Bagnu]

46 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

  

There is a reason the default is 1.00 in the SL viewer. Real-time rendering of 3D worlds is still a heavy load on even the newest computers. The use of LOD reduces the amount of information that has to be downloaded and the amount of effort the computer needs to render the scene. The viewer and servers send ONLY the LOD model needed for the viewer at a given distance. Bumping up the viewer to 4.0 forces the system to download the high poly model even if it will only cover a 10x10px area of the screen. The computer cannot show the detail contained in the high poly model. But it has to render every polygon anyway.

Unfortunately, this affects more than the user setting their viewer to 4.0. It affects everyone in the region. Fortunately, network speeds and the addition of CDN make it tolerable. Still it sucks because most have no technical knowledge of how these systems work.

When things disintegrate at a distance it is because the designer did not know how to use LOD. Setting your viewer to 4.00 covers up the bad design. The lame designer can get by with the top-level high poly LOD model. Models 2 to 4 are supposed to degrade the model gracefully and maintain the shape of the item only omitting details. But good LOD design is a manual process for any complex model. The automated stuff just never does as well.

You are using poorly designed LOD models. If you use the viewer's upload tools to make your LOD models this is what happens. In 2013 most of the modelers in SL were making all four models in Blender. When done right a 1000 poly house (LOD 1) can be incrementally reduced to 12 to 18 polys (LOD 4) and maintain its shape.

Pro modelers may reduce the house to 1 polygon and plaster a picture of the house on the polygon. Of course, one has to be able to know from where the house is to be viewed. More often a model is reduced to 5 or 6 polygons and images for the low poly model. When I make a couch or chair I go for a 5 poly LOD 4 model.

I was actually talking about things I bought, not made myself. But I agree with you. I can usually get about 15 fps with EVERYTHING cranked to maximum. I'm using an Acer Nitro 5 gaming laptop with discrete Nvidia GTX 1650 graphics.

[Chic Aeon]

Agree Drongle was a PRINCE and really helped me when I was learning -- even when I couldn't understand all he said LOL.  @Aquila Kytori is our best reasource now I think and has been for a long while. There have been others along the way. 

There are MANY threads on LODs, bad LODs, Sloppy LODS and "I won't buy this" LODS in these forums.  It has been a very long battle. Now and then we make progress with some creators and I clap and do a little dance then.    I burned up a couple of expensive graphics cards with LOD4 before I KNEW not to set my numbers up.  Others will argue of course and if they want to buy new cards like I had to that is certainly their choice.  But as it has been said the folks using heavy mesh with faulty LODs (and usually big textures) are hurting all the neighbors too. I have lived places where I had to move because of folks who just didn't care.  

 

There was talk awhile back about getting rid of LODs (there were none in Sansar).  IF LL decided to go that route (maybe to help with mobile?) then some creators are going to have to change their ways, redo or exit.  Will be interesting to see how that all turns out.   

 

 

[Bagnu]

8 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Agree Drongle was a PRINCE and really helped me when I was learning -- even when I couldn't understand all he said LOL.  @Aquila Kytori is our best reasource now I think and has been for a long while. There have been others along the way. 

There are MANY threads on LODs, bad LODs, Sloppy LODS and "I won't buy this" LODS in these forums.  It has been a very long battle. Now and then we make progress with some creators and I clap and do a little dance then.    I burned up a couple of expensive graphics cards with LOD4 before I KNEW not to set my numbers up.  Others will argue of course and if they want to buy new cards like I had to that is certainly their choice.  But as it has been said the folks using heavy mesh with faulty LODs (and usually big textures) are hurting all the neighbors too. I have lived places where I had to move because of folks who just didn't care.  

 

There was talk awhile back about getting rid of LODs (there were none in Sansar).  IF LL decided to go that route (maybe to help with mobile?) then some creators are going to have to change their ways, redo or exit.  Will be interesting to see how that all turns out.   

 

 

Thank you for this. I am just starting to create for SL, and my focus has been on LI for our Island SIM. It's very different working with images and animated video, where rendering overnight is not an issue for just a couple of seconds of video, or a single image. SL runs RT, and there are many things I have to learn. Things that I don't know I don't know. Caitlin and I don't have neighbours,  but it is becoming apparent that it would be an issue for others when and if I begin to sell things I create. My first question, is about textures. SL is limited to 1024X1024. I personally find lower to not give me the sharpness I want when dealing with large objects, like the 60M long vine bridge I have been working on. I have to tile it as is. Is this creating an issue for visitors?

[Nalates Urriah]

10 hours ago, Bagnu said:

Thank you for this. I am just starting to create for SL, and my focus has been on LI for our Island SIM. It's very different working with images and animated video, where rendering overnight is not an issue for just a couple of seconds of video, or a single image. SL runs RT, and there are many things I have to learn. Things that I don't know I don't know. Caitlin and I don't have neighbours,  but it is becoming apparent that it would be an issue for others when and if I begin to sell things I create. My first question, is about textures. SL is limited to 1024X1024. I personally find lower to not give me the sharpness I want when dealing with large objects, like the 60M long vine bridge I have been working on. I have to tile it as is. Is this creating an issue for visitors?

Yes... Penny Patton has a blog (The Digital Pasture) and she writes about how to use textures on things you buy and build. See her post Textures & Lag, but check out the entire site.

[Chic Aeon]

20 hours ago, Bagnu said:

Thank you for this. I am just starting to create for SL, and my focus has been on LI for our Island SIM. It's very different working with images and animated video, where rendering overnight is not an issue for just a couple of seconds of video, or a single image. SL runs RT, and there are many things I have to learn. Things that I don't know I don't know. Caitlin and I don't have neighbours,  but it is becoming apparent that it would be an issue for others when and if I begin to sell things I create. My first question, is about textures. SL is limited to 1024X1024. I personally find lower to not give me the sharpness I want when dealing with large objects, like the 60M long vine bridge I have been working on. I have to tile it as is. Is this creating an issue for visitors?

Actually it is the viewer that limits and I am pretty sure Blackdragon is the viewer that let's you upload 2048.  That being said it is a VERY BAD IDEA to do that. The only legit use I can think of is "gacha" machine keys where there are lots of things and tons of tiny print and you really need something bigger to be able to read and see what is going on.  

What you want to do is NOT put all the textures on one png.  For example put the metal on one and the upper structure on another and the base on another etc.  That being said it is NOT  a "beginner" thing to do.   I have a video on the process but it is for the older interface so parts will definitely not match.  You can get the idea behind the process though. Again, I suggest making simple and not big things to start until you actually know what you are doing :D. That isn't said in any snarky way, it took me years to actually know what "I" was doing LOL. 

 

Here is that OLD video.    EDIT: there MAY be a better way to do this now. If so Aquila will jump in eventually and explain the  newer method.   ALSO you do NOT need to upload things all in one piece. You can upload them in parts (particularly good with large items like houses although some folks "reuse" parts of houses so like the separate bit).  Smaller items like furniture "I" anyway upload as one object to save on the land impact and get better LODs :D. 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Chic Aeon
adding info

[Bagnu]

Thanks Chic. I'm making simple things that Cat and I need to make our Island what we want it to be. I learned, that FS CAN upload textures up to 8192 with the proper debug settings, but SL will downsample them to 1024.  I just tested this. I set mine to 8192X8192, uploaded a tex that size, and saved it back to disk. it comes back as 1024. The supersampling simply makes it look better, without being any larger.

The biggest hurdle I'm facing is "Blender". I've worked with 3DSMAX on and off for roughly 20 years. Blender is so different, that I'm fighting to find simple things that are intuitive to me in MAX.  

So for the mapping, you're saying to UV map as separate elements of the same object, and upload a tex for each? Or detach to parts, and upload separately with a matching UV mapped tex for each? If the latter, how do I reassemble them precisely? Is this what the linksets I know nothing about are for?

I personally hate baking complex objects into one plane. With ivy, the image quality of the texture gets degraded if I bake as a whole. 

[Bagnu]

12 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Yes... Penny Patton has a blog (The Digital Pasture) and she writes about how to use textures on things you buy and build. See her post Textures & Lag, but check out the entire site.

I just looked, and it makes perfect sense.  No point in adding lag by making textures larger than they need to be for a particular object. I personally may not have performance issues with things, but someone else might. @Chic Aeon pointed this out here, and so has @Cinnamon Mistwoodin IM inworld.

[Bagnu]

And now here is another question. It's a nightmare trying to create things that match existing inworld objects, like our floating Islands. Great,  i can create vines, that I can manipulate inworld. That's easy. They don't have to perfectly match anything.  But I had to resort to photogrammetry to recreate our two main floating islands as objects. But it takes hours to take the 150 or so photos necessary, and to clean up the subsequent mesh so that I could create an approximate mesh. is there no way to somehow get the .OBJ or DAE files for the objects we have on our SIM, so it would be easier to match things to them, without many hours of trial and error?

Edited June 9, 2023 by Bagnu

[Chic Aeon]

8 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

And now here is another question. It's a nightmare trying to create things that match existing inworld objects, like our floating Islands. Great,  i can create vines, that I can manipulate inworld. That's easy. They don't have to perfectly match anything.  But I had to resort to photogrammetry to recreate our two main floating islands as objects. But it takes hours to take the 150 or so photos necessary, and to clean up the subsequent mesh so that I could create an approximate mesh. is there no way to somehow get the .OBJ or DAE files for the objects we have on our SIM, so it would be easier to match things to them, without many hours of trial and error?

If you made them yourselves you can export through the viewer. But if you bought them the "best" method is to put a bunch of prims together in approximately the same shape and go from there.    Just logged off and a long day so I don't remember the steps to save the build as a dae sorry/ 

 

 

[Bagnu]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

If you made them yourselves you can export through the viewer. But if you bought them the "best" method is to put a bunch of prims together in approximately the same shape and go from there.    Just logged off and a long day so I don't remember the steps to save the build as a dae sorry/ 

 

 

Thanks!!! I really appreciate your help!!! I know how to export my own objects as .DAE. I created them in blender with Primstar, and stretched and positioned them, and then exported, so I could open them in Blender The photogrammetry IS actually more precise than putting a bunch of prims together in the case of our floating Islands, which I bought and modded, and I get the same textures as in the photos. Just horribly time consuming. Prims work great with straight walls etc.and I get a very good approximation with that. The export is by default .DAE , if it's not saved as a backup.

And you said "best" method. What other method is there?

Edited June 9, 2023 by Bagnu

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, Bagnu said:

And you said "best" method. What other method is there?

That's pretty much it I guess. Maybe someone else has other ideas. You can take measurements and front - side - back - side photos and approximate that way I guess. Mostly I make from scratch so not a big expert on the "prim to mesh" methods.  But for you island if you took top, middle and bottom measurements (with prims cubes for example) and the took photos and used them as guides and modeled "on top" of the photos -- that would be another method.   

[Bagnu]

Chic, to give you a better idea of my workflow, here's a gyazo of what I'm working with. You can see that the photogrammerty method DOES give decent approximations of the inworld Island objects I have to match new creations to. I've changed the bridge , and I haven't added that in yet.

https://gyazo.com/191707940249bf81873179b2fb230582

[Bagnu]

The point to keep in mind, is if our texture uploads are larger than 1024x1024, they will be downsampled to that size. SL CANNOT have any individual texture larger than 1024X1024.  I've transferred old film frames to video at 3840X2160, and downsampled to 1920X1080 in RL. The downsampled image always looks better than one taken at  the target resolution. This is the same concept applied to SL textures.