Fraud?

[Ivy Kiko]

Today I paid an owner of a rentals company around 2 weeks worth of rent, however they then told me that the rental metre on the parcel was for a different parcel -  the one adjacent to it, as the land that I was looking at was in fact a community area and not for rent... this is despite the rental meter being on this land, and the LM given in the external rentals company's website being specifically for this plot, and being advertised with it's own specific name.  My argument was that the external website info was displayed incorrectly, and therefore my rent should have been refunded. The adjacent plot which they said was the one for rent did not really match what I wanted.  I said I would look at their other available lands as they had quite a lot, and see if there was anything suitable, however the owner refused to refund my L$.  It was a considerable amount too, as I had paid about 2 weeks worth of rent up front. I was told that I should have read the rental box properly before paying it. my response was that the correct info should have been displayed on the website, and I even took the LM provided. The owner said they would transfer the rent over to another rent meter instead of refunding me. I admit this annoyed me somewhat as the general attitude was also a bit off, and I felt like I had been misled by their website. I requested again that my L$ be refunded first, and so this became a disagreement, and then the owner told me that I was trolling, and muted me.  I left the land.  I  then communicated with an agent to see if there was any way I could still possibly negotiate a refund, i was told no.  I  asked then if I could view another parcel, and I tried TPing over to see it. I  was however blocked from the region. the agent denied that I was blocked, even though I clearly was. this agent then asked me which parcel I was interested in, but when I gave the agent the LM, they refused to TP me over and began questioning me as to why I would not accept the parcel that I was earlier told was the one for rent. I replied this was because it wasn't the parcel I was led to believe that I was renting via the website, and it didn't suit what I wanted.  i asked again if  I could view this alternative one i had found, but the agent just kept arguing that I should accept the other one -  even though it wasn't the parcel I thought I was originally renting. the agent then said it was a better parcel anyway and then also accused me of trying to cause trouble, and said I  was a griefer. I  told the agent that this was ridiculous and that all i wanted was to view a parcel of my choice before agreeing to rent it, or have my L$ refunded. If they believed that I was a griefer, why not just give me my refund and get rid of me anyway, so that really made no sense.  I was told that I would have to accept the parcel that they were offering, or nothing. I pointed out that I was told that I would be able to rent an alternative, and if not, then they should refund my L$. The agent refused to do this and then muted me., after I told them that I didn't think they really had any intention of allowing me back anyway, and I was still blocked from the area, even though I had asked to be unblocked so I could come and view a parcel to have the rent transferred over to it, as I was originally told would happen.

I filed a report to LL under abuse and fraud.  I received a reply saying that they don't get involved in disputes between tenants  and landlords. I sent a reply to explain that this wasn't really my landlord at all, as this person would not let me rent with them, and had me banned still from the region, however was refusing to return my L$. I am now waiting to see if I hear anything further back, but i am not very hopeful.  I have been in SL a long time and never experienced anything like this with renting. someone kept my furniture once, as i went over on the rent by a day, which i felt was a bit over the top, but fair enough, ,my rent was late, and that was my fault. But this situation now just seems wrong to me. It seems my L$ were kept out of sheer greed.  I was watching an episode of Lab Gab the other week and Philip Rosedale was talking about how SL could potentially affect people in such a negative way  and people could lose a sense of right and wrong, if it wasn't handled in a certain way... It seems like Philip's fear may have already come true. It's  quite sad when stuff like this happens. I haven't named the rentals company and I won't do that. I know not all rentals owners behave this way, but it does put me off renting, as i haven't done so in a long time, and this then this happens when I decide to rent a place again after a while.

 

[Ivy Kiko]

Thank you. Honestly, I don't think the owner had any intention of letting me back, even to the plot they were telling me I should take. I think they got themselves into a corner knowing they should offer something at least, because they knew they had already said they would, but then decided to get argumentative so they could attempt to turn it back around and claim I was trying to cause trouble, and then refuse to have me back for that reason...which is what the owner has done. I probably should have just accepted that parcel though as you said, and it would have made it more difficult for them to not allow me back. I've not been ubanned from the region even though they claim I wasn't banned..It is so transparent you could almost walk right through it! But jokes aside, I don't think I'm going to see the L$ again.

LL really need a total rehaul of how disputes like this are handled...Obviously they are not usually gone anywhere near, however you expect a degree of support when you are investing money and time into something. And when someone is using the platform to keep someone's money, without providing the service for which they have advertised, then that is out and out theft on their part. I've been here a long time but it makes me think to hell with it. If someone ever comes up with something to seriously rival SL, and with much better support, and it will happen one day, then I can see a lot of people just upping and leaving.

[benchthis]

Why is it allowed that "businesses" in SL get away with scamming paying users? A normal business would apologize for any confusion, refund, and continue to work with person to see if there's a product that is better suited. The advertisement with photo of the land for sale on community land with pay meter on that land paying for some other land is a scam. I wonder how many users this company has in their ban list? I've gotten ripped off in this world so many times so many ways,  I learn from my "mistakes". We trust what we see, and when we do that will usually lead to a negative experience. It's an ever present negative perpetual cycle of deception, greed, & hostility, most of use have learned to be aware of and avoid.

Usually before I rent or buy anywhere I will contant the land person, they are typically very friendly and willing to show different properties, it's fun looking around with an actual person. I would message any people before hand and ask if they could show you some land. 

I understand sometimes situations like this seem hopeless. If someone took my money and blocked and banned me I would have reacted the same way.

I would file a support ticket, request that the AR you filed be escalated to upper leadership for review. They probably will not follow up with you details regardind the specific issue but at least more eyes are on this issue.  

[benchthis]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Because, any interaction between users in Second Life is automatically considered a dispute between Residents.  It's really that simple.  There are no "laws" that govern this. (I believe the TOS explicitly states that LL is not responsible.) What would you want, a "court" in Second Life to handle disputes between residents? 

Don't peeve the Landlord, they can do whatever they want.

 

Maybe a special care department. The current policy is extremely cold and not good for their business. 

[benchthis]

It becomes a problem when bad actors are take advantage of the policy for personal gain; while destroying the product ultimatly. 

[benchthis]

I'm just asking for something better in the policy. we do not get involved with domistic desputes unless fraud is involved. If they don't have the man power to manage their product, I would suggest they fill that void, If it is impossible to prevent fraud in this platform perhaps it should be shut down until it can.

Edit: if fraud is found relating to inworld currency. LL/SL reserves the right to debit the account in violation and process refund and credit complainant account. 

With better policy there will be less problems and staffing requirements would be minimal. 

Edited April 6, 2023 by benchthis

[benchthis]

we don't have the man power to handle all the fraud complaints is a big red flag..

[Ivy Kiko]

8 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

There is a difference between fraud and what seems to have happened in this case.  Actual Fraud is a reportable action.  

The large company I rented from states right on their website, no refunds.  They also have listed cases in which refunds MIGHT be considered.  Just as in RL, it's the responsibility of the consumer to check these things.  Things such as non-refundable deposits exist in both worlds.  

Maybe so, but if a landlord takes your money and then ends up refusing to let you rent with them, bans you from the region and accuses you of causing trouble when you have done nothing wrong, except request a refund or an alternative, which is ultimately what happened, while also refusing to refund the money, isn't that wrong?  I get that you only have my side of the story but I described it as it happened. Obviously am not going to provide more in depth, specific details, because that would be breaking the TOS. I can't 'prove' what happened here, but then I'm not really interested in doing that either. That's all I can really say. I think that most people reading my post can probably relate in some way. It seems like many people i have chatted with have had some pretty awful experiences too. mine certainly isn't an isolated case from what I can tell. 

[Ivy Kiko]

9 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Agree, was about to post basically, activities within Second Life do not always fit the definition of Fraud based on the TOS, the fact "game tokens" are used, the "fraud" complaints are between residents, etc. 

When there is "actual" fraud, not fitting the above - Linden$ are literally "stolen" from "hacked accounts" etc., then Linden Lab definitely gets involved.

I definitely see a trend of users to say, "It is FRAUD!" when they were not satisfied with an outcome (did not get a refund, etc.).

Possibly, these same users would also say "Fraud" in "real life" if they get evicted, if the landlord cancels their Lease, etc., having not read or understood their "real life" Lease agreements.  In "real life" (in the US), you basically can take your landlord to "Small Claims Court" and a judge will promptly decide if you are right or not.  

 

I don't  think any reasonable person would agree it is fair or right for a real life landlord to accept rent, keep it and then tell you you can't rent any of their properties after all, and refuse to talk to you though. Yes there are small claims courts in RL, but  I'm pretty sure you'd win in that case anyway. I think it's entirely fair to consider it possibly being fraud if someone takes your money and then has no intention of providing the service advertised, while refusing to refund the money. I'm really not sure how you would defend that.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Ivy Kiko

[LittleMe Jewell]

34 minutes ago, Ivy Kiko said:

I received a reply saying that they don't get involved in disputes between tenants  and landlords. I sent a reply to explain that this wasn't really my landlord at all

Correction on the statement from LL --- the don't get involved in any Resident to Resident issues........ period

Sorry you experienced this, but I'd suggest living in the spot you paid for -- it is only 2 weeks -- and then go find a new place to live.  Or don't and just accept the lost L$.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, benchthis said:

Why is it allowed that "businesses" in SL get away with scamming paying users?

Because, any interaction between users in Second Life is automatically considered a dispute between Residents.  It's really that simple.  There are no "laws" that govern this. (I believe the TOS explicitly states that LL is not responsible.) What would you want, a "court" in Second Life to handle disputes between residents? 

Don't peeve the Landlord, they can do whatever they want.

 

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, benchthis said:

Maybe a special care department. The current policy is extremely cold and not good for their business. 

We only hear one side of a story in the forums.  LL doesn't have the time or manpower to police disputes of any kind between residents.  He said, she said usually doesn't even work out well in RL either.  

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, benchthis said:

Maybe a special care department. The current policy is extremely cold and not good for their business. 

My own idea for Rentals is to "encourange" payment through some "system" (for instance, some version of Caspervend now that it is owned / part of LL). 

If the user is "Kicked Off" a parcel before the end of the rental period, then the "rental system" would automatically refund the unused part of their Rent.

If such a "rental system" were somewhat universal (yes, it may put other "rental system" companies at a disadvantage), then it could be made known "this owner uses XXX system, you WILL be refunded partial rent if for some reason your rental "lease" is "cancelled").  This could be made to apply even if the user in question "broke the covenant", etc.

[Rowan Amore]

16 minutes ago, benchthis said:

fraud is involved

There is a difference between fraud and what seems to have happened in this case.  Actual Fraud is a reportable action.  

The large company I rented from states right on their website, no refunds.  They also have listed cases in which refunds MIGHT be considered.  Just as in RL, it's the responsibility of the consumer to check these things.  Things such as non-refundable deposits exist in both worlds.  

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

There is a difference between fraud and what seems to have happened in this case.  Actual Fraud is a reportable action.  

The large company I rented from states right on their website, no refunds.  They also have listed cases in which refunds MIGHT be considered.  Just as in RL, it's the responsibility of the consumer to check these things.  Things such as non-refundable deposits exist in both worlds.  

Agree, was about to post basically, activities within Second Life do not always fit the definition of Fraud based on the TOS, the fact "game tokens" are used, the "fraud" complaints are between residents, etc. 

When there is "actual" fraud, not fitting the above - Linden$ are literally "stolen" from "hacked accounts" etc., then Linden Lab definitely gets involved.

I definitely see a trend of users to say, "It is FRAUD!" when they were not satisfied with an outcome (did not get a refund, etc.).

Possibly, these same users would also say "Fraud" in "real life" if they get evicted, if the landlord cancels their Lease, etc., having not read or understood their "real life" Lease agreements.  In "real life" (in the US), you basically can take your landlord to "Small Claims Court" and a judge will promptly decide if you are right or not.  

 

[Rowan Amore]

54 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Agree, was about to post basically, activities within Second Life do not always fit the definition of Fraud based on the TOS, the fact "game tokens" are used, the "fraud" complaints are between residents, etc. 

When there is "actual" fraud, not fitting the above - Linden$ are literally "stolen" from "hacked accounts" etc., then Linden Lab definitely gets involved.

I definitely see a trend of users to say, "It is FRAUD!" when they were not satisfied with an outcome (did not get a refund, etc.).

Possibly, these same users would also say "Fraud" in "real life" if they get evicted, if the landlord cancels their Lease, etc., having not read or understood their "real life" Lease agreements.  In "real life" (in the US), you basically can take your landlord to "Small Claims Court" and a judge will promptly decide if you are right or not.  

 

It's bad business practice to not try to accommodate a disgruntled customer but that does happen all the time in both worlds. 

When I rented my homestead and decided to downsize to a smaller parcel, the company I rented from moved the remaining balance on my homestead rental to my new rental.  That's part of the reason I've always rented from that specific business.  They do their best to satisfy customers.

FRAUD:   In law, fraud is intentional deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain, or to deprive a victim of a legal right. 

[Dyna Mole]

Let me interject a brief reminder that this is the Answers section of the forums, designed as a place for people to ask questions about how SL works (or doesn't) and get short factual answers from other users.  It is not a place for lengthy discussion. That is much better suited for one of the other forums, often General Discussion.