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Kyrah Abattoir

Why beginners don't learn the basics first?

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Hello,

I think the best way to help beginners is to have a clear and easy to use formula, I modestly advice something like animesh for a new type mesh, mesh v2 or arctan mesh, with a checkbox to use the new formula,

We can imagine a formula like 1 prim = 1024 triangles in size 0 to 32 meters , add 1 prim for upper size , and for LoD the same rule as animesh, triangles 1024 / 512 / 256 / 128 in the 4 LoD. I am very sure lot of designers will use it to make better LoD because the fair and understandable formula and to promote even their skill and design. And I am sure, for the users, who take care of FpS in their Second life activities, will like it.

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10 hours ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

We can see this from a lot of point of views, the fact is with the mandatory respect for TOS, a sim owner is renting a server with a large freedom to use it for a lot of purposes. During the rent, the owner is a customer who pays and so deserves the service. As it is the case actually, and really Second life is working well.

Details and optimization can go together of course, but a designer is not always an engineer or an uvmap specialist or a LoD specialist. And for some use of Second life, as make art or nice pictures , LoD is not a top priority. A lot of peoples use Second life as Bryce was used, as a "photorealistic" render engine for beginner, because Second life is versatile enough. I am not saying Second life can be compared with Bryce directly or photorealistic render engine as V-Ray, I am saying lot of users are using Second life instead of using photorealistic render engine, and for them FpS can go at 8 or even less, if the camera moves well and they see all details they want, all is good. They have this right.

 

You keep advocating for such a freedom, but that type of freedom is what causes the tragedy of the commons. The bad practice of one for personal advantage reflects on others by damaging them who in return will apply the same method to recoop, so in the end the new bad practice is going to affect everyone, including the first individual. Other game engines are also used for product or design display, but then the scenes end up being composed of only the product/design and not really usable in the context of a realtime application that's more complex than that. So the freedom you're advocating for is something that damages the experience of the community as a whole, because of the same principle described as the tragedy of the commons. The others release at machinegun rates by neglecting the principles that drive the content creation specs of a platform that can't fancy the same rendering features other engines can, therefore being a uv specialist as you call it, is a necessary skillset. Everyone wants the baked lighting for extra details, then materials to go with that, at a distribution speed rate that such necessary practices can't really meet within a deadline. Add then the bloated lod factors as a standard suggestion/requirement, and the overall performances go down the sink. Paying the rent for your apartment doesn't give you the right to destroy it, the same goes with renting a simulator. Simulators are hosted on shared servers and even if you have no neighboring sim visible inworld, technically you have neighbors on the server that hosts your sims and boggling resources on yours has an impact on the performance of others'. You mention Vray and other render engines, but you seem to skip an important detail: over there, there is no need for a 0-1 uv range and you can tile materials as you wish without the need of static lighting maps, exactly as it happens in Unity or Unreal. The enviroment you choose has an impact on the degree of freedom you can or can not feel/be entitled to. Please refrain to post any further advocation to this kind of freedom of use, because we all as whole, you included, are suffering from the fruits of such practices and this may, although slowly, lead SL as a platform down a path of self destruction with users leaving or anyway not coming back again after their first lagfest. 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

You keep advocating for such a freedom, but that type of freedom is what causes the tragedy of the commons. The bad practice of one for personal advantage reflects on others by damaging them who in return will apply the same method to recoop, so in the end the new bad practice is going to affect everyone, including the first individual. Other game engines are also used for product or design display, but then the scenes end up being composed of only the product/design and not really usable in the context of a realtime application that's more complex than that. So the freedom you're advocating for is something that damages the experience of the community as a whole, because of the same principle described as the tragedy of the commons. The others release at machinegun rates by neglecting the principles that drive the content creation specs of a platform that can't fancy the same rendering features other engines can, therefore being a uv specialist as you call it, is a necessary skillset. Everyone wants the baked lighting for extra details, then materials to go with that, at a distribution speed rate that such necessary practices can't really meet within a deadline. Add then the bloated lod factors as a standard suggestion/requirement, and the overall performances go down the sink. Paying the rent for your apartment doesn't give you the right to destroy it, the same goes with renting a simulator. Simulators are hosted on shared servers and even if you have no neighboring sim visible inworld, technically you have neighbors on the server that hosts your sims and boggling resources on yours has an impact on the performance of others'. You mention Vray and other render engines, but you seem to skip an important detail: over there, there is no need for a 0-1 uv range and you can tile materials as you wish without the need of static lighting maps, exactly as it happens in Unity or Unreal. The enviroment you choose has an impact on the degree of freedom you can or can not feel/be entitled to. Please refrain to post any further advocation to this kind of freedom of use, because we all as whole, you included, are suffering from the fruits of such practices and this may, although slowly, lead SL as a platform down a path of self destruction with users leaving or anyway not coming back again after their first lagfest. 

As I know, you can download Unity for free and make the 3D objects you want with Blender, for example.

User can create on Unity their own little game for personalm use with their objects, even objects with no LoD. And I don't think someone will say something about this.

Is it for personal advantages ? of course no, it is very common beginner will work in first on design, and after on technical details. I am on technical side, my main goal is to remove the technical work from designers, so they can use the time to create and not make LoD, and I can say, I have good LoD generator because my softwares know work with model description and not triangles, so the generation of 3D objects triangles and LoD are not linked to the design. So, I am very easy with LoD, contrary about what you think I think good LoD formula will help Second life but Second life musts welcome beginners about build, because plenty of users like Second life for this.

I prefer freedom than inquisition, true. I prefer users informed than obliged, I prefer creation and design than push LoD and LoD again, and again more LoD subjects as "hidden"  advertisement too.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Motoko Oanomochi

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2 hours ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

As I know, you can download Unity for free and make the 3D objects you want with Blender, for example.

User can create on Unity their own little game for personalm use with their objects, even objects with no LoD. And I don't think someone will say something about this.

Is it for personal advantages ? of course no, it is very common beginner will work in first on design, and after on technical details. I am on technical side, my main goal is to remove the technical work from designers, so they can use the time to create and not make LoD, and I can say, I have good LoD generator because my softwares know work with model description and not triangles, so the generation of 3D objects triangles and LoD are not linked to the design. So, I am very easy with LoD, contrary about what you think I think good LoD formula will help Second life but Second life musts welcome beginners about build, because plenty of users like Second life for this.

I prefer freedom than inquisition, true. I prefer users informed than obliged, I prefer creation and design than push LoD and LoD again, and again more LoD subjects as "hidden"  advertisement too.

 

 

 

 

And once again, you miss the context. Downloading Unity amd making whatever you want on it is going to affect you and you only, it doesn't hold sh*t as a comparison with SL since it is A FREAKING SHARED ENVIRONMENT. 

On a side note, don't even dare to imply that i did any sort of "hidden advertisement" with my post about LoD from some time ago. There isn't a referemce to the product name and i was not only sharing the ideas and working method behind it, i was asking for feedback for improvement based off user experience to add on top of that and whoever can write a plug in for a 3d app can use those guidelines. 

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You are right, it is a shared environment, as road is, with profesional taxi drivers, professional truck drivers, beginners, experimented drivers, foreign peoples, motorcycle and so one.

On side note, I never spoke about softwares I created and continue to support, despite an excellent LoD generator based on model knowledge for mesh and animesh, with full automatic rig and skeleton converter from Sansar to Second life, and more.

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Just now, Motoko Oanomochi said:

You are right, it is a shared environment, as road is, with profesional taxi drivers, professional truck drivers, beginners, experimented drivers, foreign peoples, motorcycle and so one.

On side note, I never spoke about softwares I created and continue to support, despite an excellent LoD generator based on model knowledge for mesh and animesh, with full automatic rig and skeleton converter from Sansar to Second life, and more.

Then I'm sure you understand why tank threads are not allowed on public roads.

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Then I am sure you understand why beginners are allowed despite they risk to make more mistake than experimented drivers.

I never seen a beginner with tank :) on road, but I understand what you try to say. In any case, how avoid "tank" object on Second life ? there is Li formula for this, actual formula is not the best, we can agree on it, but we must live with it and create a new mesh V2 as animesh was done.  It can be quickly done, and I repeat I am sure, plenty of designers will go on it.

 

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30 minutes ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

You are right, it is a shared environment, as road is, with profesional taxi drivers, professional truck drivers, beginners, experimented drivers, foreign peoples, motorcycle and so one.

And you understand that, beginners or professionals, car, bike or truck, all of them must abide to the street code of conduct. Enough for me, I'll just mute any of your content on the forum. 

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3 minutes ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

Code of conduct is the TOS on Second life

So even without a direct quote, you know that it is forbidden to hinder or degrade other user's experience of the platform? Because that's what you're condoning instead

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

So even without a direct quote, you know that it is forbidden to hinder or degrade other user's experience of the platform? Because that's what you're condoning instead

You can ask to add something about LoD in the TOS, but the TOS is the code of conduct.

And maybe allow only people to build if they prove they can make perfect LoD under the criteria of the "closed LoD AD club" :)

Good luck.

 

Edited by Motoko Oanomochi

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1 minute ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

You can ask to add something about LoD in the TOS, but the TOS is the code of conduct.

Everything you do, even content and its components. Following your reasoning, anyone would be free to create sim crashing devices and all would be fine. 

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6 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Everything you do, even content and its components. Following your reasoning, anyone would be free to create sim crashing devices and all would be fine. 

I hope you can yet make the difference between a beginner skill who experiments 3D creation on Second life and griefer. I really hope.

 

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I prefer explain, encourage and show the right path. It seems some posts show some users want to punish more or less. It is not my way.

I repeat again, I am in favor about new mesh with new Li formula as mesh V2 , with formula inspired by animesh with the goal to encourage better LoD, but not to exclude beginners.

 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

I prefer explain, encourage and show the right path. It seems some posts show some users want to punish more or less. It is not my way.

I repeat again, I am in favor about new mesh with new Li formula as mesh V2 , with formula inspired by animesh with the goal to encourage better LoD, but not to exclude beginners.

 

Beginners have never been the problem. I had experienced creators tell me before that they don't care because if their customers aren't paying for it, they are not going to go through the effort of doing it.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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55 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Beginners have never been the problem. I had experienced creators tell me before that they don't care because if their customers aren't paying for it, they are not going to go through the effort of doing it.

In this case, I agree with you it is not the best attitude. Of course, customer has the right to ask for low Li, but it is to the role of the  designer to explain the implications. And the designer musts be able to provide the Li / LoD ratio asked by the customer.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

And the designer musts be able to provide the Li / LoD ratio asked by the customer.

The customer has no idea what's a lod and the claim has beem, is and will keep being 1 LI for a full sim worth of objects. At a price next to nothing too. Reality check Motoko, reality check. 

Edited by OptimoMaximo

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2 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Beginners have never been the problem. I had experienced creators tell me before that they don't care because if their customers aren't paying for it, they are not going to go through the effort of doing it

I agree. I would do an experiment and make 1 item in two versions, version 1 mmade right with materials to provide normal mapping and good lod set at 7 LI for 100 L$  and the second version high poly just pulled out from zbrush, textured with no materials, no lods and 1 LI at 1 L$. Extended description to explain tje difference. Which one would sell more? 

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21 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

I agree. I would do an experiment and make 1 item in two versions, version 1 mmade right with materials to provide normal mapping and good lod set at 7 LI for 100 L$  and the second version high poly just pulled out from zbrush, textured with no materials, no lods and 1 LI at 1 L$. Extended description to explain tje difference. Which one would sell more? 

And if the price is the same, it could be interesting to see how customers react. Or better put both versions in the same set, and ask your customers what they use ? of course with same materials :)

 

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29 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

The customer has no idea what's a lod and the claim has beem, is and will keep being 1 LI for a full sim worth of objects. At a price next to nothing too. Reality check Motoko, reality check. 

It was true, but since last year many users ask about good LoD, it is not yet thousand, but many more than before. So, I can say there is good progress.

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7 hours ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

It was true, but since last year many users ask about good LoD, it is not yet thousand, but many more than before. So, I can say there is good progress.

To be fair we probably wouldn't be in this situation if there was no object detail slider.

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13 hours ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

And maybe allow only people to build if they prove they can make perfect LoD under the criteria of the "closed LoD AD club" :)

Good luck

What a lowly method to avoid answer, by editing an already answered comment after a while. Anyway, as i said already, i was asking for feedback to improve the guidelines for a tool that anyone could replicate since i was sharing the method and there was NO name reference to identify the product, therefore as opposed to what you did in the past to get your post deleted that you were complaining about time ago, that's no hidden advertisement and yours was. Face the fact that you can't recognize context and that this is the reason for your post being deleted and mine is still standing, as proved by this and the fact that your condonating practices that degrade user experience in the name of freedom is the same as griefing, with the little detail difference that a griefing device can be made on purpose or be the result of inconsiderate resource hogging. It still cause grief, regardless of the intentional or unintentional purpose. 

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13 hours ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:
9 hours ago, Motoko Oanomochi said:

And if the price is the same, it could be interesting to see how customers react. Or better put both versions in the same set, and ask your customers what they use ? of course with same materials

 

First, a customer wouldn't even respond to feedback request as long as the product meets their expectations in a way or another, therefore putting both items in the same package wouldn't give you any preference data, as opposed to the other method where their wallet becomes the voting tool. 

Secondly, you show a lack of comprehension on the subject matter by saying "of course with the same materials". The low poly needs to have a material set of textures that include the highpoly extracted normal map and AO in the diffuse, and a normal map for an highpoly extracted from itself always is a flat normal map with no details, since their surface match 100%. So the materials can't be the same, inherently, whereas the highpoly can only take the base material texture tiled a few times, resukting in a high resolution texture, and the low poly needs to be 1 tile in each direction mandatory, resulting in a lower resolution. 

Please, please...learn what "context" means an see as many example of it as you possibly can before you come back posting BS of such proportions

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On 1/20/2019 at 1:57 AM, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Disclaimer! If you feel that I'm unfair or too harsh, I'm sorry, I don't want to come out as an arrogant jerk but that's unfortunately how I tend to come out.

The above "disclaimer" is the equivalent of saying, "I don't mean to sound racist but...<insert racist comment>"

If you need to put a disclaimer like this on a post, then maybe it is best not to  make the post in the first place.  As a player of only 2 weeks, I found the older SL community to be hit or miss when it comes to actually providing useful information.  Even when older SL players are sincerely trying to be helpful, they misjudge how overwhelming SL can be to us new players.

Contrast SL with a game like Destiny 1 and 2 and it becomes obvious the differences in the two communities.  In Destiny, new players are called "kindergardians" and older players celebrate seeing them out in the open by helping the new player complete a mission or advise on better load outs.  Does SL have a cute name for new SL players?  None that I have been called.  More likely than not, I have been told to "just go away," or much ruder.

Disclaimer! If you feel that I'm unfair or too harsh, I'm sorry, I don't want to come out as an arrogant jerk but that's unfortunately how I tend to come out.

I now see the appeal of using this disclaimer! 

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The disclamer is there because some people with very fragile egos stop listening once they feel they are being criticized, and I'm only human.

So now that everyone had their fun, can we go back on topic?

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir

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