Jump to content
Macrocosm Draegonne

BOM Texture Atlases?

Recommended Posts

On what other things besides avatars can we bake textures?

Could BOM potentially be utilized to create Texture Atlases that are still tileable textures? 

I know these would only be useful in some situations, but they could add better performance to a build if used correctly.  We would need a new shader for that to work I would guess, in order to still have tileability on the individual quadrants.

Perhaps the same Viewer interface can be used to implement this, plus a flag or something on the object that would denote its able to utilize a texture atlas.  Or perhaps it can have one uploaded (or created) with the object in mesh uploader?  Most 3d apps can already output a perfect texture atlas, I know blender does.   But BOM + a shader could allow for creation of them out of disparate textures.  

For landscapes and things reused a lot in a SIM, wouldn't these really add a considerable boost to performance?

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

On what other things besides avatars can we bake textures?

Theoretically, almost anything, mesh or prims...

Realistically, almost nothing...

Any account has exactly ONE set of "baked textures", just one, so yes, you *could* make a system skin with the textures for a mesh helicopter on it, One of the bakefail-on-mesh propaganderists has already demonstrated this, but...

The same helicopter textures would be applied at the same time to your mesh body and mesh head...

So, if you used a BakeFail-on-Mesh skin to texture a helicopter, your mesh avatar would become helicoter coloured, and it's highly unlikely that the helicopters UV layout is going to match the avatars UV's so the chopper textures won't even line up right.

So then you wear a different BakeFail-on-Mesh skin, that's more... Human, to retexture your mesh avatar, and your helicopter ends up flesh pink with your crotch spread across the side of the hull about 6 feet wide.

7 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

but they could add better performance to a build if used correctly.

No they couldn't... A bakefail texture at 1024 resolution is no more efficient on a build than a regular 1024 texture from your inventory.

7 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

wouldn't these really add a considerable boost to performance?

No...



 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

No they couldn't... A bakefail texture at 1024 resolution is no more efficient on a build than a regular 1024 texture from your inventory.

Is it not better performance to load one 2k texture rather than four separate 1k textures?  The file size would be the same basically, but it would be three less calls for a texture.

59 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Theoretically, almost anything, mesh or prims...

Realistically, almost nothing...

Any account has exactly ONE set of "baked textures", just one, so yes, you *could* make a system skin with the textures for a mesh helicopter on it, One of the bakefail-on-mesh propaganderists has already demonstrated this, but...

The same helicopter textures would be applied at the same time to your mesh body and mesh head...

So, if you used a BakeFail-on-Mesh skin to texture a helicopter, your mesh avatar would become helicoter coloured, and it's highly unlikely that the helicopters UV layout is going to match the avatars UV's so the chopper textures won't even line up right.

So then you wear a different BakeFail-on-Mesh skin, that's more... Human, to retexture your mesh avatar, and your helicopter ends up flesh pink with your crotch spread across the side of the hull about 6 feet wide.

Yes I realize the current implementation is geared towards avatars, but that does not always have to be the only use case.  The terrain is another texture bake the system does.  Combining several textures to make an atlas does have some benefits, although its only useful in specific cases, and would need to be well structured to prevent abuse.  However, its a standard performance enhancing technique thats easy to do, even if we just upload our own self created texture atlases that would be a huge blessing.  That said, using the bake system more enhanced performance minded (and automated) techniques can be implemented to ease the viewer, network, and data drives too.  All with the same textures already in use today, only combining them when it makes sense to do so.

EDIT:

My point is really about the bakes way of things though, since texture atlases are nearly a moot point, we will soon'ish have larger than 1024 textures allowed, so we can make atlases on our own, and would then only need a shader bit to be able to tile the quadrants that are referenced in the atlas.

With bakes though, there may be some cool cache automated atlas thing that could run on a schedule, choosing the best combos for an area and building the cache with it, updating as needed, and dumping outdated atlases, all automatically.

Along with that there could be an atlas building UI, perhaps in the mesh/texure uplaoder, maybe the SIM management level, or who knows where else.

The power of Atlases.
A great way to see the value of atlases is when heavily modding skyrim, there is a 3rd party app called DynDoLOD you simply must use when you put many hundreds of disparate mods into the game (like SL)  You end up with weird LOD that performs bad, and looks bad.  Run DynDoLOD and it automagickally builds a perfect array of texture atlases (among other things) in logical sets, this considerably improves game performance, and massively improves the visual detail, all while making the LOD amazing too. 

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Is it not better performance to load one 2k texture rather than four separate 1k textures?  The file size would be the same basically, but it would be three less calls for a texture.

That is not what you asked, you asked if a bakefail texture (max resolution 1024 x 1024) would be more efficient that using a regular texture (max resolution 1024 x 1024)

The answer to your original question is "Hell no, it makes absolutely no damn difference at all..."

3 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Yes I realize the current implementation is geared towards avatars, but that does not always have to be the only use case.

You... Have... ONE... Set... Of... Bakes...

Anything you texture with "lower torso, will always be whatever colour your system skins lower torso is, plus the lower torso layers from any system clothing and tattoos...

Always...

Original BakeFail was thus, no bloody use for ANYTHING but worn mesh avatars, eventually, it was discovered that BakeFail Mk-1's propaganda was fraudsulent, and they revised to BakeFail Mk-2, before mk-1 was even officially released, mk-2 involved creating "auxilliary tattoo layers".

Everything textured with aBakeFail Mk-2 aux tat, will be the same colour...

So yeah you *could* paint your house with an aux tat... But...The SAME texture will be used on your Aux-tat coloured car, and your Aux-tat coloured airplane, and your Aux-tat coloured left arm (so you can have different tats on each arm).

And if you EVER remove that House coloured aux-tat, your bake-set rebakes and all your houses/cars/left arms/airplannes all get coloured in some different pain...

 

As stated the problem with BakeFail is, it is instant and universal... EVERYTHING textured with a particular BakeFail texture will be the same colour, and will all change together every time you change your outfit.

14 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Combining several textures to make an atlas does have some benefits, although its only useful in specific cases,

As a 3D modeler, I've always found that shoving 4 sets of cookie cutter UV's into the corners of one double sized texture isn't that efficient at all, because you just end up with an even bigger percentage of wasted pixels.

15 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

However, its a standard performance enhancing technique thats easy to do, even if we just upload our own self created texture atlases that would be a huge blessing.

Oh and SL's MAXIMUM texture resolution is... 1024 x 1024...

So making your own 2k texture atlas, basically means that all your hardwork making the textures gets junked as they are put through an extremely poor texture resizer, and reduced to a cluster of 4 fuzzy 512's jammed on a 1024...

18 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

That said, using the bake system a more enhanced performance minded (and automated) techniques can be implemented to ease the viewer, network, and data drives too.

No not really... All you've done is layer a bunch of 1024's over eachother, it doesnt arrange them side by side, it layers them over each other, the only way you could use Bakefail to make texture atlass style composites is ...

Make your 4  2048 textures, only paining into 1 /4 of each...

Upload to SL which will Auto-fubar, your 4 2048's in to 4 1024's...

Bake fail your 4 fubared 1024's into a single super low quality bakefail 1024, that will be removed from whatever you textued the moment you change your outfit in the viewers appearance tab.

...

This seems to be your biggest handicap

BakeFail textures are NOT permanent, they change EVERY TIME your outfit changes.

Take your system shirt off, and SL REBAKES your house car and helicopter, and your chest.

23 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

All with the same textures already in use today, only combining them when it makes sense to do so.

Bakefail doesn't do any of the stuff you hope it will, and almost certainly NEVER will, it's already overbudget and behind schedule. and the fundamental concept behind it makes it inherently unsuitable for permanent texturing of anything.

It's a system DESIGNED to temp texture an item WHILE you wear the system layer concerned, take that layer off, kiss your texture goodbye!, it's gone from the object you applied it to and replaced with the NEW BAKE.

How hard is that to understand...


 

 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

It's a system DESIGNED to temp texture an item WHILE you wear the system layer concerned, take that layer off, kiss your texture goodbye!, it's gone from the object you applied it to and replaced with the NEW BAKE.

How hard is that to understand...

Yes, I realize the current use of the bake systemfor BOM is for Avatars.  Im sure whatever oddities there are will be worked out to make the best of it for that use case. 

I am not however speaking to that use case,  I am speaking about the bake system though, and its ability to composite images as it could relate to making atlases.  Also, FYI we will have larger than 1024 images soon enough, I saw Oz say it himself.  Its only a matter of time, who knows how long, but thats not the point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Im sure whatever oddities there are will be worked out to make the best of it for that use case.

Realistically, the "best use " for BFoM is wearing 10 year old system clothing on modern mesh avatars... That isWhat it was originally requested for.

5 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

I am not however speaking to that use case,  I am speaking about the bake system though, and its ability to composite images as it could relate to making atlases.

You are still assuming atlas textures are a "really good thing" and frankly, that's questionable, you increase pixel wastage %, and that increases vram consumption which increases texture thrashing...

And since all textures are stored in jpeg2000, which has a progressive preview loading feature, you increase the overhead for those reduced quality previews, and that slows downloading and rezzing.

A single 2048 x 2048 will take FOUR times as long to download as a 1024...

With smaller textures you get faster rezzing. If you are using TILED uv's for efficient texturing, then you don't even need 1024's most of the time. Assuming that there is some magic benefit in taking 3 piss poor cookie cutter uv'd 1024's and slapping them into 3 of the 4 corners of a 2048, is, utterly wrong.

13 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Also, FYI we will have larger than 1024 images soon enough, I saw Oz say it himself.  Its only a matter of time, who knows how long, but thats not the point.

At your age you should know that anything a Linden promises isn't true until it actually happens...

If it happens...


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Realistically, the "best use " for BFoM is wearing 10 year old system clothing on modern mesh avatars... That isWhat it was originally requested for.

You are still assuming atlas textures are a "really good thing" and frankly, that's questionable, you increase pixel wastage %, and that increases vram consumption which increases texture thrashing...

And since all textures are stored in jpeg2000, which has a progressive preview loading feature, you increase the overhead for those reduced quality previews, and that slows downloading and rezzing.

A single 2048 x 2048 will take FOUR times as long to download as a 1024...

With smaller textures you get faster rezzing. If you are using TILED uv's for efficient texturing, then you don't even need 1024's most of the time. Assuming that there is some magic benefit in taking 3 piss poor cookie cutter uv'd 1024's and slapping them into 3 of the 4 corners of a 2048, is, utterly wrong.

At your age you should know that anything a Linden promises isn't true until it actually happens...

If it happens...


 

Seems to me BOM will reduce some onion skin layers, which is great for the avatar skin use case.  I suppose my post was slightly off topic perhaps, but it is related to the bake servers, which are used for several things already.

Atlases will be the same textures, so its not any additional images, and they could actually save texture space wastage quite a lot, they can even do that automatically if programed to do so.  Atlases are not some cure all, or needed for every thing, but they're excellent for certain things, theres no good reason not to use them. 

The larger texture size will happen, theres no reason OZ would say such a thing if it were not in the realm of possibility, he did not say when though, of course.

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Seems to me BOM will reduce some onion skin layers, which is great for the avatar skin use case.

Unproofed propaganda, folks bought the appliers and will be pissed when the onions dissapear, my educated guess is: they will stay. And after some enthusisastic removal by some less foresighted producers will quickly return once they get their user feedback flak.

Edited by Fionalein
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Unproofed propaganda, folks bought the appliers and will be pissed when the onions dissapear, my educated guess is: they will stay. And after some enthusisastic removal by some less foresighted producers will quickly return once they get their user feedback flak.

There will always need to be at least one, its too useful not to have at least one onion skin. but a lot of the others can go, if its things that are supposed to be in the skin anyway why waste an onion skin and all those texture calls anyway?  Scars, Tattoos, freckles, makeup, or any other skin stuff seems a perfect fit for BOM Avatar Bakes.  The system clothes are not really relevant no matter what way ya shake it IMO except maybe the few types of things that look good skin tight.

So, no I dont think Omega is going away, but it will have to adjust to the change.  Nor do I think all the onion skin layers are going away.  They're a make-due until we get more shaders, they're not only used/useful on avatars either.  :)

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

I suppose my post was slightly off

Personally I would prefer the phrase "Clueless tech-illiterate Bollocks" myself.

7 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Seems to me BOM will reduce some onion skin layers, which is great for the avatar skin use case.

The BakeFail Propaganda crew originally claimed it would eliminate ALL 'onion layers', they were told they were wrong, they kept on claiming it, and... Now it seems they were wrong.

If you check the first post in the BakeFail feedback thread, and the official BakeFail wiki page, there is at least one claim made for BakeFail that is complete bollocks... Namely that it will "eliminate the need to sell full perm mesh templates", for example. One of it's leading proponants was called on their making BakeFail tutorial videos, showing how to use BakeFail that included features that BakeFail didn't have and still doesn't have and almost certainly will never have..

Treat BakeFailer claims with some doubt...

11 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

but it is related to the bake servers,

One of the issues that cropped up regarding the bake servers was... They were designed to handle 512 bakes, and somebody *cough* asked if the increase to 1024 bakes would have a serious effect on performance of said servers with every bake now handing 4 times the data, and adding more baked layers...

A Linden said they would be watching it to see, an answer that didn't inspire much confidence.

15 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Atlases will be the same textures, so its not any additional images,

Not with the current BakeFail system they won't... It doesn't do what you want. what you are asking for is an entirely different system of BakeFail, and they have already said no to 'other systems' already.

17 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

and they could actually save texture space wastage quite a lot

WARNING: Clueless Tech-Illiterate Bollocks detected...

No they do not, ever... Arranging 3 crappy "only 60% of the pixels used" 1024's in 3 of the 4 corners of a 2048, means you are using 60% of 75% of the pixels, MORE wastage not less.

20 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Atlases are not some cure all, or needed for every thing

Quite the reverse...

20 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

but they're excellent for certain things

Meh...

20 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

theres no good reason not to use them

How about NOT using over blown, inefficient, pixel wasting, bandwidth hogging, laggy crap on the sayso of somebody who appears to know naff all about 3D modeling and UV mapping, or texture memory usage in rendering engines?

...


 

 
 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

How about NOT using over blown, inefficient, pixel wasting, bandwidth hogging, laggy crap on the sayso of somebody who appears to know naff all about 3D modeling and UV mapping, or texture memory usage in rendering engines?

Im talking about texture atlases in case you're lost? Do try and keep up dear. ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_atlas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

There will always need to be at least one, its too useful not to have at least one onion skin. but a lot of the others can go, if its things that are supposed to be in the skin anyway why waste an onion skin and all those texture calls anyway?  Scars, Tattoos, freckles, makeup, or any other skin stuff seems a perfect fit for BOM Avatar Bakes.  The system clothes are not really relevant no matter what way ya shake it IMO except maybe the few types of things that look good skin tight.

Because I won't buy the whole crap again? Besides that, if either my skin or tattoo was made as an applier only before BOM and is not getting updated due to... let's say designer leaving SL for good it will stay an applier only. I can tint or transparency my onion layers even if the applier itself does not allow, will BOM allow this? Let's say you want a cellulite layer (WHOOO a normal map), can BOM do that? No! Let's add some spectacular and normal mapped latex undies to underwear onion and put some similar mapped socks onto the clothing layer - Oh damn some idiot removed the onion layer I cannot do so anymore ->"MAYSLINKZZA HELPDESK HULP ME! MA AVATARA IZ ALL MEZZED UP AFTA DA UPDATE!". The only folks happy with less layer BOM bodies will will be those that do not like to tweak stuff. 

I tell you what a layer reduction due to BOM would bring us:

  • a happy herd of consumer sheep
  • a huge bunch of dissapointed advanced users

PS: I get it, you only have some cheapo scars without normal mapping, please don't assume all of us do ;)

 

Edited by Fionalein
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A texture atlas is generally good for performance on many fronts.  That will not fix bad textures, you're throwing a red herring into the convo. ***** bad textures, they will be bad no matter what.  What I am speaking about is the correct use of texture atlases, which if you've been paying much attention you'd see are all over the place already, albeit minimally, many creators combine various parts into one texture, and some are quite efficient with using available texture space too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Because I won't buy the whole crap again? Besides that, if either my skin or tattoo was made as an applier only before BOM and is not getting updated due to... let's say designer leaving SL for good it will stay an applier only. I can tint or transparency my onion layers even if the applier itself does not allow, will BOM allow this? Let's say you want a cellulite layer (WHOOO a normal map), can BOM do that? No! Let'S add some spectacular and normal mapped latex undies to underwear onion and put some similar mapped socks onto the clothing layer - Oh damn some idiot removed the Onion layer I cannot do so anymore ->"MAYSLINKZZA HELPDESK HULP ME! MA AVATARA IZ ALL MEZZED UP AFTA DA UPDATE!". The only folks happy with less layer BOM bodies will will be those that do not like to tweak stuff. 

I tell you what a layer reduction due to BOM would bring us:

  • a happy herd of consumer sheep
  • a huge bunch of dissapointed advanced users

 

They do plan on adding material support including tinting, it was said many times in the BOM meetings I was at. 

I would never propose to remove all the onion layers, quite the opposite, but one is better than four+  Especially when most of those layers are pointless layers, AKA, only layers because there was no way to bake everything on the skin together.  BOM should be a little bit of what everyone was looking for, i wont consider it fully released until it has material support though.  It would need to bake a normal and spec too.  Then the One or Two(though thats excessive) remaining onion layers can be used for those that want to wear some cool classic stuff they might have.  But far more interestingly, those layers can be used to add effects and such on the skin for real time game animations and interactive.   Stuff like the lalukta cotton candy, your face gets dirty and you can lick it off, both mesh chunks and a texture layer on the onion skin.

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

But far more interestingly, those layers can be used to add effects and such on the skin for real time game animations and interactive stuff.

Don't speak of plural when you just recommended reducing them (additional layers) to just one... do you even look at your previous statements sometimes? I was told it helps in conceivable argueing....

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Im talking about texture atlases in case you're lost? Do try and keep up dear. ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_atlas

Yes, I know, I knew when i said "clueless Tech-Illiterate Bollocks".

If you are going to hide your tech-illiteracy behind a wiki link, at least do me the courtesy of READING the bloody page before trying to hide behind it...

"a texture atlas (also called a sprite sheet or an image sprite) is an image containing a collection of smaller images, usually packed together to reduce the atlas size"

Forthe tech illiterate, that means that some of your sprites might be smaller than the 'standard sprite texture size, so a sprite of a man standing at attention isn't as wide as one of somebody pretending to be a tree...

In Fonts, this is called kerning...

It is in NO way applicable to "saving texture space", on UV mapped textures in the manner you suggest.

"In an application where many small textures are used frequently, it is often more efficient to store the textures in a texture atlas which is treated as a single unit "

In your posts you are NOT talking about storing large numbers of very small textures, you are talking about shoving a few large textures into one larger texture.

"Storing textures in an atlas reduces the overhead of a context switch "

SL doesn't really do a lot of "context switch" on most uv mapped textures, it doesn't rapidly switch between 20 or 30 16x16 pixel 'wall textures" on your house. It doesn't rapidly switch between 20 or 30 16 x 16 pixel textures on your mesh car, rather the menu might swap a couple of 1024's when you change your D-Type Jaguar from sky blue with a white stripe to British Racing Green, 

I'm fully aware of what they are and what they are used for, and indeed have used them in games mods,that's why I don't see that many actual applications for them in SL, and certainly not enough to justify waiting a year or two while LL replace BakeFail Mk-2, with BakeFail mk-3 just for you based on your misunderstanding of just about everything, that's why I found your suggestion to be...

"Clueless Tech-Illiterate Bollocks"
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

I'm fully aware of what they are and what they are used for, and indeed have used them in games mods,that's why I don't see that many actual applications for them in SL, and certainly not enough to justify waiting a year or two while LL replace BakeFail Mk-2, with BakeFail mk-3 just for you based on your misunderstanding of just about everything, that's why I found your suggestion to be...

"Clueless Tech-Illiterate Bollocks"
 

OK lol, I was just teasing and checking, its hard to know when you're being sarcastic.  :P

So you know a texture atlas has its specific place and use, why then all the hysterics about things its not useful for?  I am also not interested in those applications... I am interested in ways they can be used effectively.  They are already in use in the current SL system at 1024, and of course there is no way to tile inner quadrants. BUT I am not speaking greek here, a texture atlas can do what it does great, and there are ways it can fit into SL to reduce texture calls, when it makes sense to do so, not in all the imaginative ways you can propose they not be used. ^^

And BOM is gonna rock your socks off! Get ready baby! ?

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

And BOM is gonna rock your socks off! Get ready baby! ?

you mean in this kind of way?

24 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Let's add some spectacular and normal mapped latex undies to underwear onion and put some similar mapped socks onto the clothing layer - Oh damn some idiot removed the onion layer I cannot do so anymore

...

Yeah I was kinda fearing that... 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

I'm not even sure are you still discussing or just provocating?

Theres nothing negative in the translation of that tho, I am just chatting, I like memes, sorry not sorry.  :)

Translation "Good morning, cuties" lol I thought it was cute it said BOM, so sue me!

And I do wish you a good morning, depending on your timezone?  I love the peanut gallery here, the whole lot! Its precious.  I never take negative comments personally, and I really do not intend to be hateful towards anyone, though I do get carried away rambling as im sure you've noticed by now.

AND>>> unlike some apparently, I am very excited about BOM, I do not expect it to be perfect day one, but it is an excellent feature IMO.

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

They do plan on adding material support including tinting, it was said many times in the BOM meetings I was at.

The only reason they mention adding material support now is because for most of the last 20 months, people like, well myself, and Fi, and many others, have repeatedly said "BakeFail with no materials is a GIANT leap backwards in avatar rendering technology, that only appeals to failed merchants whose businesses, based on 10 year old system layers, have died, and to old fossils who refuse to let go of their 100,000 item plus collections of 2006-2009 glitch pants".

And who exactly is "they " in your "they are talking" anyway... Vir? Or users unhappy with BFoM, desperately trying to get it patched up before it's too damn late.

13 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

BOM should be a little bit of what everyone was looking for,

It's NOTHING I ever wanted.

14 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

I would never propose to remove all the onion layers, quite the opposite, but one is better than four+

Before you blather about mesh bodies, go and learn about them, most mesh bodies have... THREE onions...

Tattoo, Underwear, Outerwear.

16 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Then the One or Two(though thats excessive) remaining onion layers can be used for those that want to wear some cool classic stuff they might have.

So, now you are talking about a single layer being removed, and the remaining layers being bakefailed to use those "classic 2006-2009' era system rags many of us simply do not have or want. But you'd prefer it if we just bakefailed, and left the onions for "hella kewl sfx" which almost certainly means alpha blended glow etc., two of the worst gpu performance hits in SL's rendering engine...

28 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

What I am speaking about is the correct use of texture atlases, which if you've been paying much attention you'd see are all over the place already

You spouted tech-illiterate crap about combining several 1024's onto a single 2048... NOT combining hundreds of 16x16's onto a 2048...

In case your memory is failing you...

2 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Is it not better performance to load one 2k texture rather than four separate 1k textures?

In addition... Your typical SL scene, contains assets made by many different people, and often owned by many different people, baking all those textures into an atlas, would need resolutions a lot larger than 2048, say 10 times larger?

Can you imagine how slow a 20480 x 20480 resolution image would load and rez? And if somebody rezzed something, or clicked a texture change option in an object, THE WHOLE damned atlas would need to REBAKE, and REDOWNLOAD.

Your idea is insane.

Texture Atlas is a technique most often seen in STATIC uses... The pictures for troop type icons in a strategy sim, never change in play, there's lots of them and they are SMALL so you make an atlas of them.

Trying that with 512's and 1024's in a dynamic environment is bloody pointless.

39 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

albeit minimally, many creators combine various parts into one texture, and some are quite efficient with using available texture space too.

That isn't a Texture Atlas, thats LOW Quality cookie cutter uv mapping, it has exactly NOTHING to do with atlasing...

The 'pieces' are NOT accessed using an indexing system, they are assigned areas of the meshes UV map it's self, and frankly using cookie cutter uv's is EXACTLY what I meant by pixel wastage.

You know naff all about 3D modeling, uv mapping and texturing, and apparently naff all about texture atlas techniques, and the pros and cons.

You've done almost no research and still refuse to accept that it's a bloody dreadful idea. One that would cause massive amounts of performance degredation...

35 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Stuff like the lalukta cotton candy, your face gets dirty and you can lick it off, both mesh chunks and a texture layer on the onion skin.

Oh and you are a few years late to the party... Go search the MP for a product range called "It's not mine...", doesn't require BakeFail or Atlasing at all.


 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Your idea is insane.

No dear, that would be your idea, one imagined so that you could argue against it because you're disappointed in the current beta-pre-release status of BOM. 

There are cases when a texture atlas is useful and does provide performance benefits, those are the interesting ones.  Arguing against that seems silly, but you're not really arguing against that, you're going on about what its not good for, and I am not interested in the ways they would be less useful, or misused, I am interested in ways they can be of benefit.  If they were totally useless they would never be used at all for anything.

I dont expect BOM to be perfect day one, and I also do not expect they will ignore the big things it needs, they've addressed those needs enough to please me at least, I expect they will iterate and improve the system as they feel it out over time.  There is no question at all it will have materials support, they've said that is a priority once the base is setup.

I get the sense you're just going to hate it either way? Onion skins, or no onion skins?  Let it suffice that people will choose with their dollars what they like best, I certainly wouldn't want a body/head that got rid of all the onion skin layers, but I would appreciate not having more than one additional, because the complexity will be lower, and texture calls too.  Theres no reason to have all those images plastered all over an avater when its stuff that should be in the skin, baking all that to one is brilliant.  The system clothes mean nothing to me, I tossed most of those out years ago, but I love OMEGA and customizing, I really dont want that to ever go away, only to improve and evolve.

Maybe you dont think removing 1/3 or more of the onion skin layers is significant, but if you've got 100 avatars around you, those tri's can add up.  and think of the textures (beards, brows, hairbase, tattoos, scars, freckles, makeup, etc) now reduced to 1 for the body, and 1 for the head.  Plus their material layers too of course. 

How could anyone think thats a bad thing??  I can understand keeping LL feet to the fire on knocking the feature out of the park, but I dont see any reason to think of BOM in a negative light simply because its not perfected yet, how could it possibly be, its not even released yet lol.

 

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

OK lol, I was just teasing and checking,

This is the second thread where after spouting tech-illiterate nonsense, and receiving a bloody goodand well deserved technical asskicking all up and down the thread, you have tried to laugh it off as "just teasing" and tried being patronising, with such lame tactics as calling me dear...

I'm not your dear, I have higher standards.

59 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

So you know a texture atlas has its specific place and use

Better than you do.

1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

why then all the hysterics about things its not useful for?

Not hysterics, and because what you are suggesting it for is what it's no bloody use for.

Atlassing is for easy handling of lots of very small images all made by the same team, in the same static envioronment, it's NO BLOODY USE for handling 512's and 1024's from multiple content creators, on objects owned by multiple users, in a dynamic environment.

You use BakeFail mk 3 to assemble a bunch of 512's and 1024's into a single larger texture... How large? 2048 simply won't cut it, no where large enough to make the idea worth while.

Imagine if you used an atlas texture large enough to make the idea useful...

oh, say 20480 x 20480...

How long would that take to download and rez... And what happens when somebody clicks one oftheir in world objects, and uses it's menu to change the colour? The whole massive atlass has to rebake and reload for everyone... Cue "world of grey that never goes away".

Stupid idea.

1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

They are already in use in the current SL system at 1024,

The closest you'll find to texture atlasing in SL is images used to texture hud buttons. which is a small part of Sl's texture usage, and frankly one of the least laggy. 

Do not , in your tech-illiterate state, confuse cookie cutter uv mapping with texture atlasing, they are NOT the same thing, despite that crappy wiki page wrongly including a "make human" uv map in its  sample "atlas pictures".

1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

a texture atlas can do what it does great, and there are ways it can fit into SL to reduce texture calls, when it makes sense to do so

Which isn't often enough to make it worth while crowbaring in some moronic BakeFail spinoff to handle it.

1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

BUT I am not speaking greek here

No, you are talking nonsense...

1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

And BOM is gonna rock your socks off! Get ready baby!

No it wont, I don't have any use for this collosal failure at all, in any way.

I don't have a vast stockpile of 512 textured system skins and clothing I desperately want to distort by badly rebaking at 1024 onto my Maitreya. I have exactly NO use for a system that doesn't support materials.
 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...