Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Klytyna said: This is the second thread where after spouting tech-illiterate nonsense, and receiving a bloody goodand well deserved technical asskicking all up and down the thread, you have tried to laugh it off as "just teasing" and tried being patronising, with such lame tactics as calling me dear... I'm not your dear, I have higher standards. Better than you do. Not hysterics, and because what you are suggesting it for is what it's no bloody use for. Atlassing is for easy handling of lots of very small images all made by the same team, in the same static envioronment, it's NO BLOODY USE for handling 512's and 1024's from multiple content creators, on objects owned by multiple users, in a dynamic environment. You use BakeFail mk 3 to assemble a bunch of 512's and 1024's into a single larger texture... How large? 2048 simply won't cut it, no where large enough to make the idea worth while. Imagine if you used an atlas texture large enough to make the idea useful... oh, say 20480 x 20480... How long would that take to download and rez... And what happens when somebody clicks one oftheir in world objects, and uses it's menu to change the colour? The whole massive atlass has to rebake and reload for everyone... Cue "world of grey that never goes away". Stupid idea. The closest you'll find to texture atlasing in SL is images used to texture hud buttons. which is a small part of Sl's texture usage, and frankly one of the least laggy. Do not , in your tech-illiterate state, confuse cookie cutter uv mapping with texture atlasing, they are NOT the same thing, despite that crappy wiki page wrongly including a "make human" uv map in its sample "atlas pictures". Which isn't often enough to make it worth while crowbaring in some moronic BakeFail spinoff to handle it. No, you are talking nonsense... No it wont, I don't have any use for this collosal failure at all, in any way. I don't have a vast stockpile of 512 textured system skins and clothing I desperately want to distort by badly rebaking at 1024 onto my Maitreya. I have exactly NO use for a system that doesn't support materials. In your misplaced and mostly out of context berating you failed to imagine even a most basic use case? As one example, say an object with four materials, that are tilable textures, when this thing loads, you will download all four of those 1024 materials. Making an atlas out of those will not reduce the file size, but it will reduce the texture calls by three. Four textures become one, that is being more efficient with textures, BECAUSE YOU WILL DOWNLOAD ALL FOUR (or more) ANYWAY. That is a micro example, but larger builds and full SIM's could have a few specific sets which would be the sort used in most if not all areas of the SIM, or one for a certain area if that made more sense, its flexible, and only useful where it is, nowhere else. The really useful thing about an atlas (other than performance) is ability to tile the quadrants. Sure, when we get larger textures we can just add more uv/textures to less files, because there is more pixel space to work with, but the tilable quads wont work, we'd be stuck with a one direction of tilablity (in a combined atlas'ish layout), and only if the given uv goes all the way across.. The same can be said about BOM, baking all those skin related textures to the skin is great for performance, and there WILL be materials support, thats is not even in question. EDIT: Furthermore, to bake a grid of textures is hardly as difficult as all those avatar layers, surely it would be lighter work? Using the bake server would make it all more user friendly, but its not essential. Being able to use atlases and tile quadrants within a larger texture would be very useful though, far more exciting then having a bake interface, which is a moonshot in regards to atlases. lol Edited October 22, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytyna Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: No dear, don't patronise me with that "I'm a guy and you are just a chick so I'll talk down to you and call you dear..." I'm not your dear, the idea makes me nauseous. 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: There are cases when a texture atlas is useful and does provide performance benefits, those are the interesting ones. And the vast majority of SL's texture usage are not where it would be useful. 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: If they were totally useless they would never be used ... in areas where they were bloody useless, which is why they are never used in most of SL... In fact the areas where it would be useful are so insignificant in SL, that there is NO justification for mucking about wasting dev time and budget crowbaring in some piss poor badly designed automatic system to generate them, at all. If you find a place where it would be useful, make the bloody thing your self by hand. 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: I dont expect BOM to be perfect day one, and I also do not expect they will ignore the big things it needs, they've addressed those needs enough to please me at least You think Project Stupid is a wonderful thing that's contributed many great ideas to Sl, but so far haven't named any... you are easily pleased. 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: I expect they will iterate and improve the system as they feel it out over time. I expect them to knock it out in it's current worthless form and then ignore it... 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: There is no question at all it will have materials support, they've said that is a priority once the base is setup. The only reason they might NOW be talking of adding materials, is because... Of the overwhelming calls for materials, and statements that BFoM without materials was bloody useless... 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: The system clothes mean nothing to me, I tossed most of those out years ago, but I love OMEGA and customizing, I really dont want that to ever go away, only to improve and evolve. BFoM isn't Evolution... It's a giant leap backwards to 2008... 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: think of the textures (beards, brows, hairbase, tattoos, scars, freckles, makeup, etc) now reduced to 1 for the body, and 1 for the head. You are too clueless about SL, and its clothing layers, avatar uv maps, mesh bodies and appliers to even know how many textures there are , resulting from a Bake..., Or used on an avatar's head and body. 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: but I dont see any reason to think of BOM in a negative light simply because its not perfected yet, how could it possibly be, its not even released yet lol. I don't despise it because "it's not perfect yet lol", but because it is was and almost certainly will be forthe foreseeable future, a complete and utter waste of limited resources on a bloody stupid idea, designed to only appeal to accounts over 10 years old who want to wear their 1 million arc flexi skirts with their 10 year old glitch pants again (and thats 1 million arc in non Black Dragon viewers that report mesh bodies in the 50-200 k range). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Klytyna said: don't patronise me with that "I'm a guy and you are just a chick so I'll talk down to you and call you dear..." I'm not your dear, the idea makes me nauseous. Are you a native English speaker? Or do you just read more into things than are actually there? Just because you carry on with name calling and derogatory terms directed at me does not mean I must get down in that funky energy with you. I call everyone dear, and I could give a ***** what they imagine that to mean, its impossible to manage other peoples perceptions. 39 minutes ago, Klytyna said: You think Project Stupid is a wonderful thing that's contributed many great ideas to Sl, but so far haven't named any... you are easily pleased. I named them, you didnt agree, not the same thing... reality does not conform to your desire to feel superior. 39 minutes ago, Klytyna said: And the vast majority of SL's texture usage are not where it would be useful. Yes, and the ones where it would be useful are interesting to me. You've already imparted your thoughts on areas in which texture atlases are, in your opinion, not useful. 39 minutes ago, Klytyna said: The only reason they might NOW be talking of adding materials, is because... Of the overwhelming calls for materials, and statements that BFoM without materials was bloody useless... Really? I was at creator meetings over a year ago where they assured us that under no circumstance were materials off the table, only that it was secondary to the primary, more difficult, time consuming aspects of the system were worked out. 39 minutes ago, Klytyna said: BFoM isn't Evolution... It's a giant leap backwards to 2008... Combining textures that should be combined is not backwards, the thing surely isnt released and fully featured yet, but the concept itself is not fatally flawed, its beta, in development. 39 minutes ago, Klytyna said: You are too clueless about SL, and its clothing layers, avatar uv maps, mesh bodies and appliers to even know how many textures there are , resulting from a Bake..., Or used on an avatar's head and body. I may not know every single aspect, but your making me LOL seeing you trying to argue that reducing texture calls is a bad thing. 5+ textures on the head, 5+ textures on the body just for skin effects is silly, and thats saying their body/head combo is even that efficient, ive seen worse yet. Combining them is less textures, no matter how many less, it is less. Beta caveats aside, the idea is brilliant, and when its done im sure it will be useful. Most of the heads I have can have can have 17+ textures (not including their material layers), all of which can be baked into the main diffuse with BOM. Leaving one extra layer for onion skin would potentially increase that, but the creator can keep that in mind when making their new BOM enabled HUDS, that extra layer can be used for things other than actual skin related effects. Same for the body, there are tons of zones a texture can go, reducing those to less is a good thing there too, leaving the one onion layer for flexible use, but also preventing BOM type skin related applications on the onion layer here as well would be smart. Edited October 22, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytyna Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: I named them, you didnt agree, not the same thing... You didn't name a single thing that originated in Project Stupid and migrated to SL, not one. 21 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: I may not know every single aspect, but your making me LOL seeing you trying to argue that reducing texture calls is a bad thing. Sl isn't suffering from too many texture calls, it's suffering from over sized textures that take too long to load, and rez... Combining a bunch of textures into one massive "idiot-tech" image that takes forever to download and rez, and then making that image something that gets rebaked and re downloaded every time any object on the sim is added, removed, or altered is, and I'm going to use a technical description here... A gratuitous example of the unlicenced possession of illegal quantities of WEAPONS GRADE STUPIDITY... 21 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: 5+ textures on the head, 5+ textures on the body just for skin effects The skin effects on my body uses 2 textures... Upper Body, and Lower Body, exactly the same as a system avatar... On the rare occasions when I wear a tattoo, it's 4 for skin... Not sure where you got this 5+ crap from... Did you listen to tech-illiterate people at the worthless beta grid meeting ? Of course that doesn't include materials maps, but then neither does BFoM... 21 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: I was at creator meetings over a year ago where they assured us Perhaps you should read the thread that was started over a year ago by the BakeFail proponents from those meetings, and then read the BFom Feedback thread, from start to finish, and point out all the many times when "they assured us" that Materials will be included, or even the "many times" when the people who proposed BFoM, made posts about how they always intended it to have materials support... ... You talk about this stuff as if you spent 5 mins reading about it on yahoo answers, while stoned... Edited October 22, 2018 by Klytyna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Klytyna said: You didn't name a single thing that originated in Project Stupid and migrated to SL, not one. I named two actually. One was the concept of reducing land prices and using a more fair-use-tax on sales as a revenue stream to keep the lab going strong. It was smart for Sansar and its smart here too, I was very pleased when that was announced. Two: There were developers that came from Sansar to LL, I can only imagine the context, but I assume its a good thing and related to cross-talk and cross-pollination of tech ideas. 30 minutes ago, Klytyna said: Sl isn't suffering from too many texture calls, it's suffering from over sized textures that take too long to load, and rez... Combining a bunch of textures into one massive "idiot-tech" image that takes forever to download and rez, and then making that image something that gets rebaked and re downloaded every time any object on the sim is added, removed, or altered is, and I'm going to use a technical description here... A gratuitous example of the unlicenced possession of illegal quantities of WEAPONS GRADE STUPIDITY... The oversized textures is a relic of 32 bit systems, at least thats how Oz explained it, the 1024 limit is all about those poor souls on half dead 32bit potatoes. As he was explaining more and highlighting that the texture size limit will be increased. You jump back to a previous comment about a wild idea for a potential automated system as if it were the issue at hand, that was one sentence in one post, you're going to have to get used to my wild ideas and literally zero *****s given about sharing them, or how people perceive them. :P Also I never have any problems with being wrong either, so I really dont care what I say or share, and im never upset to learn a new thing in the process either. 30 minutes ago, Klytyna said: Perhaps you should read the thread that was started over a year ago by the BakeFail proponents from those meetings, and then read the BFom Feedback thread, from start to finish, and point out all the many times when "they assured us" that Materials will be included, or even the "many times" when the people who proposed BFoM, made posts about how they always intended it to have materials support... ... You talk about this stuff as if you spent 5 mins reading about it on yahoo answers, while stoned... I was at the meeting, they spoke in fairly constructive intonations I deciphered as meaning. AKA they plainly said (after it was asked) materials are going to happen, after... the actual difficult development is done. All they are is another texture for f's sake lol, a normal, and specular, combo-baking in the same way as the diffuse will. Maybe they're just enjoying the added suspense with you all? Bahh! Advanced materials, who needs those? ? I have read a few things here in the forums, though not much on BOM other than recent posts, I was gone for quite a few months while I was moving across town and building out my new office. I am sure people are keeping up the pressure, and I am glad for it, we must have that to keep LL's feet to the fire, im sure they appreciate it too, at least when its constructive, and supportive. EDIT: One more edit just to be clear, I like your attitude and banter usually, please dont mistake my teasing, disagreements, or return rhetoric as dislike or hatefulness, I love people who can keep sharing their opinion in the head winds. Edited October 22, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytyna Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: One was the concept of reducing land prices and using a more fair-use-tax on sales as a revenue stream to keep the lab going strong. It was smart for Sansar and its smart here too, I was very pleased when that was announced. LMAO... smart move for Project Stupid? with it's concurrency figures of... 15 ? 11 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: There were developers that came from Sansar to LL, I can only imagine the context, but I assume its a good thing and related to cross-talk and cross-pollination of tech ideas No... It's related to Project Stupid failing, and so cutting back in it's dev budget wastage by relocating staff to SL where they don't have enough dev staff, because 3 years of being left to rot while Project Stupid wasted all the money... 14 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: The oversized textures is a relic of 32 bit systems, at least thats how Oz explained it, the 1024 limit is all about those poor souls on half dead 32bit potatoes. As he was explaining more and highlighting that the texture size limit will be increased. Now this paragraph makes no sense at all, literally none... Oversized textures and excessive vram usage are caused by 32 bit potatoes, and the cure for oversized textures is to allow EVEN BIGGER textures... If that's what Oz actually said, then he just lost all credibility, if thats what you thought he said because you don't have a bloody clue, then you lost all credibility. 17 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: All they are is another texture for f's sake lol, a normal, and specular, combo-baking in the same way as the diffuse will. More evidence that you have NO idea what you are talking about AND that you didn't read ANY of the posts in the BFoM Feedback thread about backing normals and how it might be done. Like I said... 5 mins on yahoo answers wile stoned... 21 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: you're going to have to get used to my wild ideas I'm already used to them being complete and utter tech-illiterate crap... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Klytyna said: LMAO... smart move for Project Stupid? with it's concurrency figures of... 15 ? lol, like I said, you did not agree. 39 minutes ago, Klytyna said: No... It's related to Project Stupid failing, and so cutting back in it's dev budget wastage by relocating staff to SL where they don't have enough dev staff, because 3 years of being left to rot while Project Stupid wasted all the money... How could it possibly fail before its even fully launched? Its in creator beta still right? Meaning, get the creators (and potential creators) over there and in on the development. Once its launched fully to the public and has a good year or so run then we will know if its a success or not. I dont see any reason why it shouldn't succeed so long as they keep working on it and perfecting it. Personally Im more excited by the core concept of what SL is and can be than Sansar, but thats not because Sansar isnt nice, its just a totally different thing with some similarities. Who knows what the future holds for Sansar? Its difficult to say until it goes fully to the public, it would be quite a surprise for it to fail before even starting though. 39 minutes ago, Klytyna said: Now this paragraph makes no sense at all, literally none... Oversized textures and excessive vram usage are caused by 32 bit potatoes, and the cure for oversized textures is to allow EVEN BIGGER textures... If that's what Oz actually said, then he just lost all credibility, if thats what you thought he said because you don't have a bloody clue, then you lost all credibility. No, he was explaining how the old systems cannot handle but so many textures, where the 64 bit viewer can do more and perform better, but that few actually even use the 32 bit viewers anymore. The next section he discussed increasing texture sizes, because someone asked. He was casual about it, and made it clear its totally possible because of legacy issues that are not so much of an issue as they once were. 39 minutes ago, Klytyna said: More evidence that you have NO idea what you are talking about AND that you didn't read ANY of the posts in the BFoM Feedback thread about backing normals and how it might be done. Like I said... 5 mins on yahoo answers wile stoned... What is incorrect about adding two more textures, we have one, now there are three to make materials work, its using the same uv maps and layering system as the diffuse, the same bake servers, the same interfaces, etc. What makes you think they cannot figure it out? Why are you so certain there will be no materials support? No doubt the whole thing is a great technical challenge, but its not a great leap from the diffuse to the normal, or diffuse to spec, layer order takes prescience in whats visible in the final render, including any alpha opacities, the goal is having them look as close to the original disparate textures as possible, unless opacity layering causes some new blending effects, but even then they just choose a way and thats how it will be, and we will build around the way it needs. 39 minutes ago, Klytyna said: I'm already used to them being complete and utter tech-illiterate crap... You're projecting, I take zero offense of course, but its sad to think you've got all that going on in that head of yours. You may want to be a bit easier on yourself there.? Edited October 22, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytyna Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 6 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: How could it possibly fail before its even fully launched? 1. It was a knee-jerk reaction, 4 years ago, to a threat that didn't exist, based on fraudulent claims by a would-be competitor for SL... 2. The decision was taken to ignore ALL the lessons learned from SL and start the whole thing from scratch with an inexperienced dev team, and literally "reinvent the wheel" on everything, which is why it's a;lready some 3 years behind the original knee-jerk schedule. 3. When they opened the "public beta" in glorious vomit-cam only, response was... Underwhelming. Even adding "non vom-cam" support, hasn't turned the failure around. 4. The whole Project is based on no clear idea as to who it's for, what they will do in it, or why. There's a vague assumption that it will be for high brow conceptual art, but nobody will pay serious money to look at that for very long, there's an idea that companies will pay serious money to use it to display NEXT year's model of 4 door saloon car via the miracle of Vom-Cam, but, odds are the IP Right problems involved in using Project Stupid will prevent that. 5. It assumed that EVERYONE would rush out and buy the Overpriced Geek Goggle Co's over priced geek goggles, but they didn't, VR is, from a public standpoint, a failed technology. 6 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: I dont see any reason why it shouldn't succeed so long as they keep working on it and perfecting it. Which is why smart tech people don't take you're ideas seriously... 6 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: it would be quite a surprise for it to fail before even starting though. Lots of bad ideas fail before they get off the ground, it's not a surprise at all. Hand carved cuckoo clocks made from runny cheese produced from Whale Milk, for example, is just one of many ideas that have Epic Failure built right in from the get-go, as does steam powered robot cats that run on pellets of dried llama dung, and the idea of a VR based conceptual art gallery and imaginary car showroom that required a ridiculous amount of expensive tech to even load never mind run, severely limiting the potential audience of people willing to pay big money to look at virtual art and imaginary cars... 6 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: No, he was explaining how the old systems cannot handle but so many textures, where the 64 bit viewer can do more and perform better, but that few actually even use the 32 bit viewers anymore. The next section he discussed increasing texture sizes, because someone asked. He was casual about it, and made it clear its totally possible because of legacy issues that are not so much of an issue as they once were. Ah so he didn't in fact say ANY of the crap you claimed... You just didn't pay attention to things you couldn't understand... Right... 32 bit applications can only use about 2 gb of main ram (there are options to improve that but...), and that places a limit on how many textures and what size, can be handled in the viewer, unpacked from jpeg 2000 format into bitmaps and passed to the graphics cards. A 1024 texture uses 3mb of ram when unpacked, a 2048 uses 12 mb, a 4096 uses 48 mb, a 8192 would use 192 mb, in an app that already pushing the 2 GB memory wall... Going 64 bit allows the app to use 4gb of memory from a much much larger total system install. So theoretically, it *could* handle larger textures, rather more importantly, it can handle more of the same sized textures for passing to modern gfx cards, allowing LL to increase the "video memory usage" slider in the viewer from 512 mb to the 1 gb that Firestorm offers, or maybe higher, for those lucky people who have 4gb or 8 gb gfx cards. 7 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: He was casual about it, and made it clear its totally possible because ... some content creators asked if they could have bigger texture maps, because they can't uv-map worth a damn and their inefficient cookie cutter uv's don't deliver the pixels-per-polygon they want at a mere 1024, so to compensate for their failure as uv-mappers, they want "MOAR Pixels", and Oz won't outright say no, because at those stupid meetings he has to play politician as much as tech-spokesman. Telling some users "No you can't have that, you are a tech illiterate low-talent cretin" is bad PR... 7 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: You may want to be a bit easier on yourself there You may want to stop being smug and STFU until you learn to listen at meetings, to people you subsequently attempt to inaccurately quote, and until you learn exactly how much about SL you don't understand at all... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Klytyna said: 1. It was a knee-jerk reaction, 4 years ago, to a threat that didn't exist, based on fraudulent claims by a would-be competitor for SL... 2. The decision was taken to ignore ALL the lessons learned from SL and start the whole thing from scratch with an inexperienced dev team, and literally "reinvent the wheel" on everything, which is why it's a;lready some 3 years behind the original knee-jerk schedule. 3. When they opened the "public beta" in glorious vomit-cam only, response was... Underwhelming. Even adding "non vom-cam" support, hasn't turned the failure around. 4. The whole Project is based on no clear idea as to who it's for, what they will do in it, or why. There's a vague assumption that it will be for high brow conceptual art, but nobody will pay serious money to look at that for very long, there's an idea that companies will pay serious money to use it to display NEXT year's model of 4 door saloon car via the miracle of Vom-Cam, but, odds are the IP Right problems involved in using Project Stupid will prevent that. 5. It assumed that EVERYONE would rush out and buy the Overpriced Geek Goggle Co's over priced geek goggles, but they didn't, VR is, from a public standpoint, a failed technology. I hear ya, but I would guess those are all known factors to them too. Being in the drivers seat they can navigate any such issues, its the cost of being in business, its the work of it, one that every organization may face from time to time, success is in the persistence, fail forward, or never win at all. Most people sit on the sidelines and ***** because they're scared to loose, or too timid to buck up and make a success where most others would give up at the first road block, or mere perception of a road block, if they're attempting anything at all. What was able to be done in Sansar will be a benefit here on the SL side too, the disconnected dev allowed them to explore a lot of different things without legacy concerns. I would guess anything good that would fit will make its way back here, most of which will be server & cloud tech, but maybe other stuff too. VR is just getting started, and Sansar is not only VR, ive never used VR over there, but I will do this winter. I see Sansar as basically skyboxes with no actual world/realm. That can be useful for specific things which would be better served as individuated experiences. I certainly will be building some things over there too, but like I said before, the whole concept of SL is far more exciting, a lot more of a technical challenge, and potentially a whole lot more capable than Sansar is even meant to be. Im sure LL has made more than enough $ over there to cover the expense and propel it forward, and they will certainly make more if they keep working at it. The lead time to make SL high enough frame rate for VR to be viable here is considerable... and is in the works, but as you can see in that time Sansar has been able to develop into a full platform, whilst SL is still overcoming legacy issues, and embarking on ever more improvements and enhancements. The CEO said as much as that in the recent town hall. Sansar has its place for what it is, and none of that is a failure AFAIC, and yes I do know what I am talking about, having successfully started/launched/expanded a very successful multi million dollar corp (now in its 10th year with well over 100 employees and mega expansions coming), as well as being part in developing quite a good collection of others. Im not claiming to be some genius but I do know what I know. None of the concerns you named are anything a real business person would be too bothered about, all of those are factors to be considered and planned around, and overcome in moments that is required. 4 hours ago, Klytyna said: Which is why smart tech people don't take you're ideas seriously... If you've ever worked on a project, which I assume you have, you would know there are pitfalls and schedule issues, and it takes time, and many iterations before something comes into full function. Especially when related to tech. Oh and I cannot even waste one second on whether or not people take me seriously, like I said before, managing other peoples perceptions is pointless, fruitless, and impossible. Whatever is in that mind of theirs is what they will perceive. 4 hours ago, Klytyna said: ... some content creators asked if they could have bigger texture maps, because they can't uv-map worth a damn and their inefficient cookie cutter uv's don't deliver the pixels-per-polygon they want at a mere 1024, so to compensate for their failure as uv-mappers, they want "MOAR Pixels", and Oz won't outright say no, because at those stupid meetings he has to play politician as much as tech-spokesman. Telling some users "No you can't have that, you are a tech illiterate low-talent cretin" is bad PR... Yea it does get brought out in meetings often, but I am speaking of an interview he did on that SL talk show. He was speaking to the technical aspect, and explained how and why its totally possible and will happen eventually. How the 1024 limit is a relic that will soon enough be put to rest. I say throw it in the museum with the duck-walking, sculpties, and particle bling. There is no amount of UV mapping that will increase texture space beyond doing a proper UV job. What most people seem to end up doing instead is just adding more textures, which is a hit on performance. When we can have larger textures there will be far less actual individual textures per object potentially, at least for creators that are optimization oriented; which I am, I am obsessed with the topic, not in the sense of being over optimized, but every bit thats optimized is another bit that can be used for additional style and overall appeal. Edited October 22, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytyna Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: VR is just getting started, and Sansar is not only VR, Vomit Cam has been "just getting started" since the late 80's. Project Stupid was designed to be and originally opened as Vomit-Cam only, use of a regular non-vom display is an afterthought because ofthe underwhelming response. 16 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: I would guess anything good that would fit will make its way back here, most of which will be ...the lesson that telling your customer bae they are a "nation of geeks" in a public blog post by a senior company exec, and telling them that your new project is intended to replace the system they use, and they can't carry anything over to the new system, and that the new system will be in vomit-cam, and in a desperate bid to overcome motion sickness, will pursue the magic 90 fps option with hardware requirements most of your customer base cant afford... ...That such a strategy is bloody stupid... 16 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: The lead time to make SL high enough frame rate for VR to be viable here is considerable... and is in the works Vomit -Cam WAS in the works, and there was a project viewer for it, some years ago, that was abandoned and the reason given by LL was that vomit-cam was "inherently incompatible with the SL UI..." 16 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: you would know there are pitfalls and schedule issues, and it takes time, and many iterations before something comes into full function. And the biggest pitfall in any such project is... "Tech-illiterate Executives with no clear idea of what they wanted, decided it would take a year or two, then hired a bunch of junior tech people who had never worked on anything like this and had no idea where to start, and placed them under the command of some tech-illiterate junior execs who's main skill was warming a leather office chair with their own overpaid exhaust..." 16 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: I say throw it in the museum with the duck-walking, sculpties, and particle bling. That's because you know nothing about efficient texture usage in a system like SL, and consequently talk out of your arse. 16 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: There is no amount of UV mapping that will increase texture space beyond doing a proper UV job I'm guessing here that you think arranging a whole 3D model in little "cookie cutter pieces, with gaps between them and around the edges that waste 30-40% of the texture map is "a proper job", but that's because you know nothing about it, and talk out of your arse. 16 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: adding more textures, which is a hit on performance Three 512's with 80-100 % pixel usage are less of a hit than a single 1024 with only 60% pixel usage. You don't get this because you know nothing about it, and talk out of your arse. 16 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: at least for creators that are optimization oriented; which I am, I am obsessed with the topic, not in the sense of being over optimized, but every bit thats optimized is another bit that can be used for additional style and overall appeal. Unfortunately, you appear to know exactly nothing, about optimisation, and consequently, talk out of your arse... But with regard to "overall appeal" of your "additional style"... Ask your self which is MORE likely to appeal to a visitor... Option A: You arrive oin the sim and it starts to rez in, each new 512 and 1024 texture streamed over the CDN, fills in another little piece of the build, until it's all there, and you can wander around, with only the bits your pc can vcope with rendering, due to correctly set draw distances etc. or... Option B: You arrive on the sim and discover it's been made with Tech-Illiterate Talk-With-Your-Arse Tech. All the textures for the ENTIRE SIM (more than 200) have been assembled by some MORON onto a single "Texture Atlas" with an image resolution not of 2k x 2k, but... 16k x 16k... This abomination takes about 40 mins to stream to your PC over your connection because you do NOT live in California, during which time, EVERYTHING is grey because the SINGLE texture hasn't loaded yet. When it finally has all arrived, the viewer attempts to unpack just over 3/4's of a GB into memory for processing, on top of the viewer's existing memory usage and your viewer crashes... ... Think hard about that and see if you can guess why SL does NOT use "Huge Resolution Texture Atlas" technology for whole sims, and why only a person who knows nothing about SL or it's tech would want it to. After you have guessed the correct answer, try not talking out of your arse. For a change... Edited October 23, 2018 by Klytyna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Klytyna said: Vomit Cam has been "just getting started" since the late 80's. Project Stupid was designed to be and originally opened as Vomit-Cam only, use of a regular non-vom display is an afterthought because ofthe underwhelming response. lol, well, the vomit inducing bit is more related to having a crap potato computer that cannot do at least 100fps, VR needs higher frame rate than regular screens, or you get dizzy. I do not have the gear myself, but I have tested it, and it is actually intensely immersive and fun. My philosophy has always been to wait it out, as prices come down, tech improves, safety improves. 4 hours ago, Klytyna said: ...the lesson that telling your customer bae they are a "nation of geeks" in a public blog post by a senior company exec, and telling them that your new project is intended to replace the system they use, and they can't carry anything over to the new system, and that the new system will be in vomit-cam, and in a desperate bid to overcome motion sickness, will pursue the magic 90 fps option with hardware requirements most of your customer base cant afford... ...That such a strategy is bloody stupid... Did they claim Sansar was a replacement? I never knew that, I always saw it presented as a completely different game, and one that would likely NEVER be as robust and featured as SL is, because its a different kind of game geared towards micro VR experiences. They did lift the idea of Experiences from SL, which is smart, because that area is in need of more work here at the SL side, so it gave Sansar a unique thing it can do SL cannot do at that performance level, yet. Did they really say that though? I didnt see them claim Sansar would replace SL, that would be a bit of a shock since SL is so much more featured and capable in almost every area. 4 hours ago, Klytyna said: Three 512's with 80-100 % pixel usage are less of a hit than a single 1024 with only 60% pixel usage. You don't get this because you know nothing about it, and talk out of your arse. You keep talking about pixel usage, yes, its a given to do that, many do not, I dont care to discuss that, I am talking about textures that are efficiently laid out, and more precisely, the issue of downloading potentially 8 files to texture one object, a larger texture could reduce that to 1 or two, especially if we can ever get tiling of quadrants within a larger image. Less texture calls is good thing, even if the file size stays the same 4 hours ago, Klytyna said: hy only a person who knows nothing about SL or it's tech would want it to. You do love a straw man argument dont you? Trouble is that it makes literally no sense in the context of the convo, while it may be funny and cheeky, its not logic based, or even plausible here. You pose some rather wild accusations and condemnations based on assumptions you just conjure out the deep recesses of your ass. lmao, you think less texture calls is a bad thing? ok, carry on with that idea, I certainly have no desire to take your binky away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) In case anyone is wondering what she's arguing against, if that can even be said? Seems the straw man has her all mixed up at this point. Anyway, here is a quick illustration of what I am actually talking about. A texture atlas is for all the textures in an object, when it even makes sense to combine them. You will not be loading textures you do not need to load, you will ONLY BE LOADING THE SAME TEXTURES YOU MUST LOAD NOW without a texture atlas. Depending on the context of the object and scene of objects an atlas may or may not be useful. Its situational, but it IS a performance enhancer. Below is one simple example of a four faced object, which would then allow up to four textures, one for each material face. You can then also add up to 8 more Normal maps, and up to 8 more specular maps too, bringing the total textures to as many as 24 per object. Even this example of using half available texture allowance would be 12 textures (including materials normal/spec). With an atlas system that could be reduced to one texture call for the object, and that atlas can be used on other similar objects too, further reducing need to load textures. Note: Yes, larger textures will really reduce this issue im highlighting, but it will be cut short in that we cannot tile quadrants within that texturespace, unless they go all the way across the texture, and even then thats only in one direction, left/right or up/down. That is where a Texture Atlas comes in, because you can do just that, tile internal quadrants. Note 2: Im mostly speaking to large objects here, ones that use tiled textures to cover more area with less textures. Those cannot simply be put lower quality in a uv map, you need to tile in all four directions, without an atlas those must be textures by themselves. Edited October 23, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionalein Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: In case anyone is wondering what she's arguing against, if that can even be said? Why don't you give up? It's idiotic ... change one texture and the whole bake must be transmitted anew - let's talk about bandwidth SPAM - apparently she is arguing with you because she does not consider you a lost case - ... yet ... Well at least the thread has some amusement factor Popcorn anyone? Edited October 23, 2018 by Fionalein 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Fionalein said: Why don't you give up? It's idiotic ... change one texture and the whole bake must be transmitted anew - let's talk about bandwidth SPAM - apparently she is arguing with you because she does not consider you a lost case - ... yet ... Well at least the thread has some amusement factor Popcorn anyone? lol, I do enjoy a good candid bantor, it is fun indeed! I take no offense whatsoever, and I hope the feeling is mutual. The bake angle on this is only the question I posed, if that were even a viable potential. I am not married to the idea, but it seemed worth discussing. The concept of a texture Atlas is fairly solid though! Sure there are many cases its not useful, but there are also those in which they are actually performance enhancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 40 minutes ago, Fionalein said: Popcorn anyone? Even popcorn would not make this thread palatable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said: Even popcorn would not make this thread palatable. Im just waiting for someone to explain why reducing texture calls is a bad thing, I am tenacious, I will not give up unless there is a clear logical, or even emotionally satisfying, reason to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Maybe pupcorn.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Isn’t the idea of “baking”, that it is permanent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Isn’t the idea of “baking”, that it is permanent? well, in the context of the avatar bakes, they're semi-permanent, because they can be changed all the time, its a beast of a tech challenge actually quite impressive. I have made similar things on servers in the past for websites, compositing layers into one final output using imagemagick and custom scritpts with a UI for setting up what they want on their own, but whats going on here is far far more advanced and challenging. What I am most interested in with the context of this post though are the one time atlases made with the creation of the mesh that would go with an object, or set of objects. Edited October 23, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: What I am most interested in with the context of this post though are the one time atlases made with the creation of the mesh that would go with an object, or set of objects. On 10/21/2018 at 3:46 PM, Macrocosm Draegonne said: On what other things besides avatars can we bake textures? Quoted from the opening post of the Bakes on Mesh Feedback Thread by Alexa Linden. "Bakes on Mesh is a new feature to allow system avatar baked textures to be shown on mesh attachments." What I gather by Alexa's statement is that it has to be an attachment. Are you suggesting it be used on regular objects and not attachments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I'm not really techy but it seems to me that your question lies outside of the designed purpose of BoM and thus belongs in another thread. It seems like you are wanting something else entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said: Quoted from the opening post of the Bakes on Mesh Feedback Thread by Alexa Linden. "Bakes on Mesh is a new feature to allow system avatar baked textures to be shown on mesh attachments." What I gather by Alexa's statement is that it has to be an attachment. Are you suggesting it be used on regular objects and not attachments? It was an idea yea, I was curious if parts of the same bake system could be used to make a user-friendly way of combining the textures on upload into an atlas. But, honestly thats certainly not anything of great need, only a cool feature. My biggest desire was more in the direction of being able to use texture atlases at all, for the benefit of reducing texture calls, and being able to tile internal quadrants. There are other ways atlases could be auto-generated server side when the setup decided it was prudent, but that is really another topic, one that really got some people fired up! lol I am not scared to discuss anything, I am impartial, and expect nothing other than to share my opinion. Edited October 23, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytyna Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: You do love a straw man argument dont you? It's not a "straw man argument", you don't know squat, but insist on making suggestions that would, if implemented, cause MASSIVE performance degredation. You are OBSESSED with "reducing texture calls" because, in your appaling technical ignorance, you falsely assume they are the biggest problem, and they are NOT. You are, to use an analogy, like some madman standing by a freeway with a sign proclaiming that traffic pollution can be eradicated by making the pine scented air freshener hanging from the rear view mirror out of stale cheese... 1 hour ago, Fionalein said: change one texture and the whole bake must be transmitted anew - let's talk about bandwidth SPAM Fionalein at least, understands why "on the fly system bakes" for texture atlas mega textures would be MORONIC. You however, do not so lets run the numbers again... You have a "Head-Up-Your-Arse Artiste with the extra E" sim, the sim build uses more than 200 1024 x 1024 textures. Against all better advice, you use an on the fly baking system to assemble these 200 plus 1k x 1k textures on a single 16k x 16k texture atlas. Somebody who doesn't live in California, tp's to your sim, AND... Waits 40 mins for the texture atlas abomination to download, during which EVERYTHING in the build is grey, because NONE of the textures can be shown until the texture atlas abomination has finished loading. When this moron-tech abomination finally finishes downloading, the viewer tries to unpack it into memory, this will consume over 0.76 GB of main ram, for ONE image, assuming this doesn't push your viewers current memory usage over the 4gb per app limit, and cause the viewer to crash, you then have to wait a couple of mins while the texture atlas abomination is chopped up and slapped on all the different objects. Contrary to MORON Tech claims, you haven't eliminated 200 plus texture calls, you still have those, only now it's calls to find part of the Texture Atlas abomination and "cut n paste" that onto some object. AND THEN, the moron who struts around calling themselves an "artiste" decides the sofa would look better in turquoise than blue, and changes the single 1k x 1k texture, forcing a brank new on the fly rebake of the entire 16k x 16k texture atlas abomination, and the ENTIRE SIM goes grey as the whole bloody 40 min download process starts over. And this doesn't take into account the complete and utter waste of your visitors bandwidth caused by resending them that 0.76 GB texture, even in a compressed format like jpeg2000 (which has its own bandwidth wasting 'progressive preview' feature built in. 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: Im just waiting for someone to explain why reducing texture calls is a bad thing, See the paragraphs above the quoted request... Reducing texture calls, insignificant benefit... Increasing load and rez times and texture handling overheads, and memory consumption, significant performance degredation. 1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said: Isn’t the idea of “baking”, that it is permanent? "Baking" as in a baked texture, in say Blunder 3D, is permanent, but this thread started with the idea that the very impermanent BakeFail on Mesh "bakes" using system layers, could be used to make texture atlas abominations, for whole sim builds... I think it took more than half a thread page before he finally caught on that having a helicopter coloured ass or an ass coloured helicopter, made that idea one of his more useless contributions to the field of human technological development. 1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said: I'm not really techy but it seems to me that your question lies outside of the designed purpose of BoM and thus belongs in another thread. It seems like you are wanting something else entirely. First page of the thread... Helicopter coloured asses and ass coloured helicopters... He's a slow learner. ... 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: but that is really another topic, one that really got some people fired up! lol I am not scared to discuss anything, I am impartial, and expect nothing other than to share my opinion. Every tech-improvement post you have made on every tech-improvement thread you have participated in (most of them your own) has been worthless tech-illiterate rubbish, that, if implemented would cause more harm than good. 2 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: The concept of a texture Atlas is fairly solid though! Sure there are many cases its not useful, but there are also those in which they are actually performance enhancing. Maybe you should ask your self, why commercial games makers, who use texture atlas technoogy in their commercial games, use it for things like, oh... the hundreds of small textures for user interface buttons and icons, but do NOT use it for the LARGE textures used to actually texture the environment and game characters to any significant degree. Then ask your self, what does SL have more of... Hundreds of tiny textures for UI buttons and Icons, or... LARGE textures used on environments and characters. 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: I am tenacious, I will not give up 1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: lol, I do enjoy a good candid bantor, it is fun indeed! You are an arrogant ignorant artiste wannabe who refuses to admit that every suggestion he's ever made on the technical aspects of SL, and how to improve it, is wrong. You probably believe that dumbocracy is a valuable thing in technical discussions, and that everyone, no matter how ignorant should make a 'contribution' to tomorrows "futureness". I on the other hand spent over a quarter of a century discovering first hand why tech-illiterate people should NEVER have any role in tech development, other than as test subjects. 2 hours ago, Fionalein said: she does not consider you a lost case - ... yet ... The time has come... 2 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said: I take no offense whatsoever, and I hope the feeling is mutual. I find all of your posts offensive for a variety of reasons. This conversation is over... Goodday. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 26 minutes ago, Klytyna said: This conversation is over... Goodday. Zomg!!1!!1!! Whatta beautiful flounce!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrocosm Draegonne Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Klytyna said: you falsely assume they are the biggest problem, and they are NOT. That... right there, its very definition of a straw man argument. I have never claimed texture calls were the biggest problem. Only that they're one factor in performance of a scene, one that a texture atlas actually improves performance on. 2 hours ago, Klytyna said: Fionalein at least, understands why "on the fly system bakes" for texture atlas mega textures would be MORONIC. Straw man #2 I never made such claims, you seem to enjoy them because it gives you something to lash out at. AKA definition of a straw man argument. 2 hours ago, Klytyna said: Reducing texture calls, insignificant benefit... Increasing load and rez times and texture handling overheads, and memory consumption, significant performance degredation. No additional pixels are being loaded, not even one... straw man #3 2 hours ago, Klytyna said: Every tech-improvement post you have made on every tech-improvement thread you have participated in (most of them your own) has been worthless tech-illiterate rubbish, that, if implemented would cause more harm than good. Yes, it would have too right? You've built that man of straw for a purpose! You still have not addressed the actual topic at hand, but who knows, perhaps the straw man has become real to you? Or its purely an accidental fabrication? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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