Pamela Galli Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 It’s not selling our stolen content that we fear most from the thieves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 See, the real issue most people either dont know or are forgetting is a DMCA has to be filed for each and every infraction. That means if a copybotter rips your entire store you could conceivably have to list hundreds of items in the DMCA. if you get one link wrong or even misspell it, they do not have to remove it. Now, a small shop like myself, a few hundred items, that sounds like a nightmare. Picture having thousands of items. Now you might understand why a creator would choose not to bother with a DMCA. https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/intellectual-property-infringement-notification-policy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMarkk Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 11 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: See, the real issue most people either dont know or are forgetting is a DMCA has to be filed for each and every infraction. That means if a copybotter rips your entire store you could conceivably have to list hundreds of items in the DMCA. if you get one link wrong or even misspell it, they do not have to remove it. Now, a small shop like myself, a few hundred items, that sounds like a nightmare. Picture having thousands of items. Now you might understand why a creator would choose not to bother with a DMCA. https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/intellectual-property-infringement-notification-policy Believe me, these who are serious with their business -would- bother. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 No those who are serious are aware of greater threats and you are not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 29 minutes ago, QuestionMarkk said: Believe me, these who are serious with their business -would- bother. Really? Tell that to the major mesh makers that have told me it's too much work to constantly fight copybotter after copybotter, day after day.. Literally, day after day. One gets pulled and another pops right in within minutes. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMarkk Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: Really? Tell that to the major mesh makers that have told me it's too much work to constantly fight copybotter after copybotter, day after day.. Literally, day after day. One gets pulled and another pops right in within minutes. I see what your point is. Everybody would want the Linden Lab. to deal with this issue better, in more efficient way, but what can we do? Us talking here won't change a thing. It's the company that needs to realize that it's the creators who keep the SL going and if they won't protect the creators, it will all fall apart. It's very sad to watch, even just few days ago I found a new store with stolen content, two of the creators did send DMCA, these objects are being removed, but as you say, it's endless fight and it should not be like that. But at the same time, talking like 'nobody would bother to report because it's too much work' can be seen only as encouragement for such people (if any of them are reading this forum). It's not true. I always inform orginal content creators if I see someone else selling their stolen products, it's been few times already, I first compare these items to make sure they have the same weights etc, then when I'm 100% sure it's not a template, I write the original creator, and I think, only once, the original creator decided not to do a thing. Edited February 6, 2018 by QuestionMarkk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 3 hours ago, QuestionMarkk said: I see what your point is. Everybody would want the Linden Lab. to deal with this issue better, in more efficient way, but what can we do? Us talking here won't change a thing. It's the company that needs to realize that it's the creators who keep the SL going and if they won't protect the creators, it will all fall apart. It's very sad to watch, even just few days ago I found a new store with stolen content, two of the creators did send DMCA, these objects are being removed, but as you say, it's endless fight and it should not be like that. But at the same time, talking like 'nobody would bother to report because it's too much work' can be seen only as encouragement for such people (if any of them are reading this forum). It's not true. I always inform orginal content creators if I see someone else selling their stolen products, it's been few times already, I first compare these items to make sure they have the same weights etc, then when I'm 100% sure it's not a template, I write the original creator, and I think, only once, the original creator decided not to do a thing. 1. Where did i say "nobody would bother to report"? 2. I report the ones i find. 3. Wait, you actually BUY THE FREAKING RIPPED ITEM TO COMPARE THEM?!?!?!? What kind of idiocy is that? Don't buy the items!!! That only puts money in the botters pocket. Good lord. 4. Wait a minute.. We are talking about stores that rip full perm mesh creators items and sell them full perm. Not someone who buys a template and then sells it no trans or no copy with their own textures on it. I dont even bother looking at things that arent full perm for copybotters.. You have no way to know if they bought an item from them on their off SL website, like many of them have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMarkk Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: 1. Where did i say "nobody would bother to report"? 2. I report the ones i find. 3. Wait, you actually BUY THE FREAKING RIPPED ITEM TO COMPARE THEM?!?!?!? What kind of idiocy is that? Don't buy the items!!! That only puts money in the botters pocket. Good lord. 4. Wait a minute.. We are talking about stores that rip full perm mesh creators items and sell them full perm. Not someone who buys a template and then sells it no trans or no copy with their own textures on it. I dont even bother looking at things that arent full perm for copybotters.. You have no way to know if they bought an item from them on their off SL website, like many of them have. First of all please read with more comprehension. Secondly I'm not attacking you but discussing things. 1. "major mesh makers that have told me it's too much work to constantly fight copybotter after copybotter, day after day" 2. very good 3. i wrote clearly i take DEMOS to compare, to be 100% sure it's the same mesh. maybe read something twice before you insult someone? 4. no, we are talking about original meshes. not templates. read with more comprehension Edited February 6, 2018 by QuestionMarkk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 1 hour ago, QuestionMarkk said: First of all please read with more comprehension. Secondly I'm not attacking you but discussing things. 1. "major mesh makers that have told me it's too much work to constantly fight copybotter after copybotter, day after day" 2. very good 3. i wrote clearly i take DEMOS to compare, to be 100% sure it's the same mesh. maybe read something twice before you insult someone? 4. no, we are talking about original meshes. not templates. read with more comprehension 1. that does not say "Nobody" it says the ones i have talked to... 2. Gee thanks. 3. No, no you didn't. You never mentioned demos anywhere.. Maybe you should reread what you wrote before you spout off? 4. WE have been talking about mesh makers since mesh came onto the scene.. And mesh template creators MAKE ORIGINAL MESHES. They just happen to sell them full perm. And that is the number one thing that gets Copybotted in SL. Perhaps you should read with more comprehension... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMarkk Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: 1. that does not say "Nobody" it says the ones i have talked to... 2. Gee thanks. 3. No, no you didn't. You never mentioned demos anywhere.. Maybe you should reread what you wrote before you spout off? 4. WE have been talking about mesh makers since mesh came onto the scene.. And mesh template creators MAKE ORIGINAL MESHES. They just happen to sell them full perm. And that is the number one thing that gets Copybotted in SL. Perhaps you should read with more comprehension... You're right, I actually didn't write demos. I take demos to compare the meshes. To makes sure it's really the same mesh. Of course I would never buy it (sic!). Well, sorry to say, since I guess it's what you create, but if you ask me full perm templates should not be allowed to sell in SL at all. Because this is what makes the whole mess. Nobody is able to control that. There are creators who make original meshes and sell them as full perm, as you say, but there are also too many thieves who sell original meshes that have never been sold as full perm, AS full perm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 There are currently 5,725,909 items on the MP... Who exactly is supposed to police them all? Who decides which item is the original? What if you and i both use the same mesh template (if you are a creator) and make similar textures, who decides which one is the copy? That is the reason they don't police it. 1. manpower 2. dealing with the mistakes 3. They are in business to make money, hiring a hundred people just to police the MP with cost a small fortune. The DMCA process works just fine, when it is used. Personally, I think the process could be streamlined to be able to scan an Original content makers store and the DMCAed store and flag the ones that match. They made the world we play in, it shouldn't be that hard.. 2 minutes ago, QuestionMarkk said: You're right, I actually didn't write demos. I take demos to compare the meshes. To makes sure it's really the same mesh. Of course I would never buy it (sic!). Well, sorry to say, since I guess it's what you create, but if you ask me full perm templates should not be allowed to sell in SL at all. Because this is what makes the whole mess. Nobody is able to control that. There are creators who make original meshes and sell them as full perm, as you say, but there are also too many thieves who sell original meshes that have never been sold as full perm, AS full perm. You do realize that copybotters have been around long before mesh was even a thing, right? Full perm did not make the whole mess. Thieves did. Thats like blaming a jeweler for making jewelry that gets stolen. Full perm templates have breathed some life back into SL. They gave the ability for people who cant learn Blender to utilize and sell mesh clothing. Do you even have a store? You don't show up on the MP... And yes, i sell mesh clothing made with templates, i also sell applier clothing that isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMarkk Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: There are currently 5,725,909 items on the MP... Who exactly is supposed to police them all? Who decides which item is the original? What if you and i both use the same mesh template (if you are a creator) and make similar textures, who decides which one is the copy? That is the reason they don't police it. 1. manpower 2. dealing with the mistakes 3. They are in business to make money, hiring a hundred people just to police the MP with cost a small fortune. The DMCA process works just fine, when it is used. Personally, I think the process could be streamlined to be able to scan an Original content makers store and the DMCAed store and flag the ones that match. They made the world we play in, it shouldn't be that hard.. You do realize that copybotters have been around long before mesh was even a thing, right? Full perm did not make the whole mess. Thieves did. Thats like blaming a jeweler for making jewelry that gets stolen. Full perm templates have breathed some life back into SL. They gave the ability for people who cant learn Blender to utilize and sell mesh clothing. Do you even have a store? You don't show up on the MP... And yes, i sell mesh clothing made with templates, i also sell applier clothing that isn't. Yes, I realize that. But meshes that have never been full perm templates are relatively easy to recognize. And there, in 99,9% of cases, everything is clear, who is the original creator and who is the thief. If creators and decent costumers will support each other and inform each other about any type of abuse/thievery then there is a change for having some control over it. With full perm templates there is almost no way to have any control, because they don't even need to copybot these meshes, they may just send them between each other and nobody (apart from the creator of the templates) will even know if they stole them or not. Means nobody will come to you and say 'hey! this guy stole your mesh', and for you to locate them all, is impossible. Also having full perm templates out there only gives the thieves their favorite excuse, no matter what they steal it's always: "I bought it as full perm mesh". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch Daddy Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 5 hours ago, QuestionMarkk said: I see what your point is. Everybody would want the Linden Lab. to deal with this issue better, in more efficient way, but what can we do? Us talking here won't change a thing. It's the company that needs to realize that it's the creators who keep the SL going and if they won't protect the creators, it will all fall apart. It's very sad to watch, even just few days ago I found a new store with stolen content, two of the creators did send DMCA, these objects are being removed, but as you say, it's endless fight and it should not be like that. But at the same time, talking like 'nobody would bother to report because it's too much work' can be seen only as encouragement for such people (if any of them are reading this forum). It's not true. I always inform orginal content creators if I see someone else selling their stolen products, it's been few times already, I first compare these items to make sure they have the same weights etc, then when I'm 100% sure it's not a template, I write the original creator, and I think, only once, the original creator decided not to do a thing. Even if Linden Lab streamlined the process more, or hired dozens more people to address the reports, it is not up to them to protect the creator. As others have pointed out, who is right and who is wrong? If 3 people buy a template and only change the colors, the templates would match each others stuff. So which one would be the real creator? Do you really want a company trying to decide who is the rightful creator or not? If you read up on DMCA it is all legal stuff and the rightful, legal, creator has to file the DMCA. Linden Lab does not have the right to do that. Which means as soon as they start policing the content and taking down items and suspending or deleting accounts, they will violate the law and could end up being sued or having the whole system shut down. If I create something and then privately sell or offer it to another user to use for their own creations, Linden has no right to say that the other person cannot use what I created just because that persons stuff matches mine. Until the law is changed, the entire onus is on the creator to defend and protect what they created, and no way, no how, should Linden be involved in that process other than to respond to valid reports from the creator themselves. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMarkk Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jacob Cagney said: Even if Linden Lab streamlined the process more, or hired dozens more people to address the reports, it is not up to them to protect the creator. As others have pointed out, who is right and who is wrong? If 3 people buy a template and only change the colors, the templates would match each others stuff. So which one would be the real creator? Do you really want a company trying to decide who is the rightful creator or not? If you read up on DMCA it is all legal stuff and the rightful, legal, creator has to file the DMCA. Linden Lab does not have the right to do that. Which means as soon as they start policing the content and taking down items and suspending or deleting accounts, they will violate the law and could end up being sued or having the whole system shut down. If I create something and then privately sell or offer it to another user to use for their own creations, Linden has no right to say that the other person cannot use what I created just because that persons stuff matches mine. Until the law is changed, the entire onus is on the creator to defend and protect what they created, and no way, no how, should Linden be involved in that process other than to respond to valid reports from the creator themselves. What I said in this post was't about full perm templates, but about original meshes that have never been sold as such. What I think about full perm templates I wrote in the next post. I dont think we're going to agree here anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch Daddy Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, QuestionMarkk said: Yes, I realize that. But meshes that have never been full perm templates are relatively easy to recognize. And there, in 99,9% of cases, everything is clear, who is the original creator and who is the thief. If creators and decent costumers will support each other and inform each other about any type of abuse/thievery then there is a change for having some control over it. With full perm templates there is almost no way to have any control, because they don't even need to copybot these meshes, they may just send them between each other and nobody (apart from the creator of the templates) will even know if they stole them or not. Means nobody will come to you and say 'hey! this guy stole your mesh', and for you to locate them all, is impossible. Also having full perm templates out there only gives the thieves their favorite excuse, no matter what they steal it's always: "I bought it as full perm mesh". Sorry, no. You do not get to tell creators how they can do business just because there are abuses by some people. If I want to create and sell templates full perm for others to use, then that is my right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMarkk Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Jacob Cagney said: Sorry, no. You do not get to tell creators how they can do business just because there are abuses by some people. If I want to create and sell templates full perm for others to use, then that is my right. Of course it's your right. But doing so you are fully aware there is no way to control it. Edited February 6, 2018 by QuestionMarkk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Just now, QuestionMarkk said: What I said in this post was't about full perm templates, but about original meshes that have never been sold as such. What I think about full perm templates I wrote in the next post. I dont think we're going to agree here anyway. I dont think i have ever come across a non full perm mesh that was ripped and then sold in any way shape or form.. 99.9999% of the items copybotted on the MP are full perm items. End of story. What you think about full perm mesh makers has ZERO bearing on this discussion. 1 minute ago, QuestionMarkk said: Of course it's your right. But doing so you are full aware there is no way to control it. Of course there is a way to control it.. self police the MP. If i make a full perm mesh and you buy it and give it to your friends who make textures and sell it on the MP, i can check my records and determine they have not ought it and file a DMCA. Again, the onus is on the creator. Just like it is in RL. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMarkk Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 2 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: I dont think i have ever come across a non full perm mesh that was ripped and then sold in any way shape or form.. 99.9999% of the items copybotted on the MP are full perm items. End of story. What you think about full perm mesh makers has ZERO bearing on this discussion. I came across two just this week. Stolen from two well known creators. Two more two months ago. 3 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: Of course there is a way to control it.. self police the MP. If i make a full perm mesh and you buy it and give it to your friends who make textures and sell it on the MP, i can check my records and determine they have not ought it and file a DMCA. Again, the onus is on the creator. Just like it is in RL. That would be amazing. I'm so very much into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch Daddy Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 1 minute ago, QuestionMarkk said: Of course it's your right. But doing so you are full aware there is no way to control it. As a creator I have full control over who can and cannot sell content based on my template. I am not sure why you seem to think that creators don't have control. If I see someone selling my creations and I know they didn't pay for it, I file a DMCA. Can we control someone passing a template to another user, no, but we can control who is allowed to sell those meshes, or use those meshes to create items. You seem to believe that putting restrictions on templates will stop the problem, but it wont. Templates that are meant to be used in a graphics program can be altered and exported, making them full perm for the person who has them, regardless of what permissions you put on the template in the first place. Sure, I can make a template no transfer, and the person who buys it cannot just resell it as is, but as soon as they open it in a graphics program, they can make a single minor change, export it, and bam, resell effectively the exact same template that I created. If you make a template No Copy, then the user has 1 copy of the item in Second Life, but it does not affect how many times they can open the template in a graphics program, make changes, and then export and save the item with a minor change. You are effectively talking about security by obscurity. The only thing people won't be able to do is directly resell the template without doing any adjusting to it. So why should I make it harder on my own customers just to try to slow down the few who choose to violate the law in the first place. It won't stop them and will only annoy both myself and my customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 6 minutes ago, QuestionMarkk said: I came across two just this week. Stolen from two well known creators. Two more two months ago. Wow.. 4 items in two months... Open the MP.. Search "mesh" sort newest, tick all the perm boxes.. Over 90 just on the first page, copybotted.. Please tell me which is the bigger issue. 4 items over 2 months or hundreds a day.. The copybotters get banned and they just pull up an alt and start over the next day. They need to add a way for merchants to file DMCAs on a store, not just an item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMarkk Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: Wow.. 4 items in two months... Open the MP.. Search "mesh" sort newest, tick all the perm boxes.. Over 90 just on the first page, copybotted.. Please tell me which is the bigger issue. 4 items over 2 months or hundreds a day.. I wouldn't compare the two. Everybody works hard on their meshes. In my opinion selling something as full perm is only making it easier for the thieves, and that is why the problem is bigger there, but obviously we're not going to agree on that. Since the beginning I have been talking about original meshes that have never been sold as full perm. Problem exists in both areas of course, but since neither, me nor none of my friends sells templates, I won't add any more, I already said what i think about it. 17 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: They need to add a way for merchants to file DMCAs on a store, not just an item. Would be great and would make things much easier. Edited February 6, 2018 by QuestionMarkk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 5 minutes ago, QuestionMarkk said: I wouldn't compare the two. Everybody works hard on their meshes. In my opinion selling something as full perm is only making it easier for the thieves, and that is why the problem is bigger there, but obviously we're not going to agree on that. That's just it.. Whether they are full perm or not does not matter one bit.. They are not being bought and then given away or resold as full perm, they are being ripped and sold as full perm. We aren't talking about people sharing full perm meshes. We are talking about copybotters. 7 minutes ago, QuestionMarkk said: Problem exists in both areas of course, but since neither, me nor none of my friends sells templates, I won't add any more, I already said what i think about it. What exactly do you sell? Your profile is blank, no listing on the MP... Are you that afraid of copybotters, that you have to use an alt to post on the forums? Yes yes, we get it. You think full perm merchants are the downfall of SL. Worst thing ever to happen. Got it.. Blame the merchant not the thieves. Good policy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Jacob Cagney said: ure, I can make a template no transfer, and the person who buys it cannot just resell it as is, but as soon as they open it in a graphics program, they can make a single minor change, export it, and bam, resell effectively the exact same template that I created. I don’t understand. How would you open in a graphics program? Are you talking about mesh or sculpts? Edited February 6, 2018 by Pamela Galli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said: dont think i have ever come across a non full perm mesh that was ripped and then sold in any way shape or form.. Pretty much my entire store. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Pamela Galli said: Pretty much my entire store. I am truly sorry that happened to you... I hope you filed DMCAs.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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