Warn Ban - Teft

[PixiWise]

{dj milen (milen . monaron)} "THEFT

Hello to all.
How is it possible that - this man paid me my money about my done job, and SL stuff handed them back based on his most brazen lie /that i did not finished my job/. Is this normal? This is an absolute insult with my personality.

So you know tomorrow when I pay someone for work done in Second life, would I like to do it like him - with lie and give me back the money every time!?

Here's my case again in detail:
He paid to me L $ 25,000 for work done. Then angry with my attitude, do not do anything that he wants me and threatened to report me and make me look bad. This he did, and after a report against me...SL returned to him the money from my account??! WHY! To calm him down at least, at the same time, I gave back him 5000 and I told him I did not want to see him again. I.e. 20000 L $ were on my account.
Then /after 10 minutes without warn/ the money disappeared from my account, SL returned to him, but with no reason!? It is absolute arrogance on his part that SL tolerate. Why they not asked him  - why he gave me this money???
I want to recover the sum of 20 000L $ which is MINE! And I will keep writing until I get an answer from SL, the support. For now, I get no response from more than 10 hours...

what i can do more?

Please help.

[Fabiano Dover]

what i can do more?

 

---

 

first i reccomend to delete the name in your post, its not allowed.

I never heared before LL got involved in resident to resident issues this way. Be patient, they are the only ones who can tell you what and why.

You can always try to call billing/support about what happened with your balance.

[Jadeclaw Denfu]

Suggestions: 1st: Remove the name from your post. Call-out thread are against forum rules.

2nd.: Report that guy for fraud.

3rd.: Contact billing about this.

4th.: In the future, make a written contract. You may want to look up 'Work for hire'-contracts.
Include RL name & address of the customer in this contract. That way you have a legal standing in RL
and you can take the customer to small claims court, if this happens again.

 

[Freya Mokusei]

Too much drama, too little information.

What did he pay you to do? What did you supply to him as 'done'?

Fraud is just about the only reason LL will process a reversal of funds. It is not typical for users to receive refunds after making transactions.

Filing under 'O' for 'The Other Side of the Argument will be Enlightening' (why yes, my filing system needs work).

[Amethyst Jetaime]

You should have received an email about the AR he must have filed and the action taken.  Check your spam folder if you don't see it in your email account.  That email will explain the actions taken and also how you can appeal.

There are no lindens here and if there were they would do nothing about your post.  You have to follow the appeals process if you have any chance of getting the money back. 

You need to remove the names in your post of face a ban on this forum.

[PixiWise]

Hello. Thanks for all answers till now.

Yes, he threatened me that if I do not pay him back, he will send a Report on Froud and even banned my account. They do not ban me, but money is gone!
The work -  that was done by many other women in SL, I escorted him .

1. I did also REPORT ABUSE for FRAUD against him! 10-11 hous ago... and second report with more details too...

2. Till now i dont have any email from SL for the situation! Thats why i posted here.

Last i received just that:

Case: 01677532
Avatar: PixiWise Resident 
Type: Abuse Appeal
Status: New

To comment on this case, either Reply to this email, or visit: https://secondlife.com/my/support/?caseID=01677532

[beethros Karas]

SL wiki says:

Because no actual sexual contact occurs, escorting, as commonly practiced in Second Life, is completely legal in the United States.

 

Are you in United States?
 If not, im afraid, you can be accused for prostitution..

if your country doesnt allowe escorting, then SL has to do whatever the rules of the country the member belongs. Aka: penalty.

For example... in my country nudism is forbiden..

So if someone report me when i am nude on a (M) SIM where nudism is allowed,

I will have to be panished.

As simple as that.

[PixiWise]

I am from Europe, in Holland and many other countries the escorting is legal !!!

And i think, the main problem is not if  it legal, tomorrow this can happen to anyone!

So, if i pay you for your, for example Dress or Skirt , and i dont like it, i can say to SUPPORT screaming FRAUD and my money is back??? is thi right?

I do not even have answer from them. This is a general violation of rights and laws in Second Life!

[Freya Mokusei]

---

beethros Karas wrote:

Are you in United States?

 If not, im afraid, you can be accused for prostitution..

if your country doesnt allowe escorting, then SL has to do whatever the rules of the country the member belongs. Aka: penalty.

 

As simple as that.

---

What? No. (and you're derailing into absurdity)

"Because no actual sexual contact occurs, escorting, as commonly practiced in Second Life, is completely legal" is a fair statement. It doesn't matter whether you're in the United States or not; I am not aware of any country that has laws against roleplayed prostitution (not the same as the actual act; there is no sexual contact in SL). Further, even if a country did have laws against it, LL would have no mandate to enforce them. The burden to punish the user for this falls on the country/state with the law, not SL.

Regardless, the OP has stated the cause of the action was Fraud. This has nothing to do with the legality/ethics of escorting, here or in RL.

[Freya Mokusei]

---

PixiWise wrote:

Hello. Thanks for all answers till now.

Yes, he threatened me that if I do not pay him back, he will send a Report on Froud and even banned my account. 

---

This means his report for fraud was successful; he was able to convince whoever received his case that you had performed no service of value.

Your next action should be to appeal, state that business was concluded (don't mention specific acts, but you may want to talk them through how your time was spent in a very general, PG way. If you spent time together in the same location for a long time state the times and sim name). If the actions took place outside of SL (on Skype or other service), then you may have a significantly harder time.

Essentially, you have to prove that a service was provided. And that his expectations of that service match what he received (as in, he didn't expect you to do anything more than what he was promised before the sale).

[beethros Karas]

well... i wanted to buy a M  parcel... and when i asked, that was the answer i got.

sorry if was wrong.

I never care of escorting.

All i wanted was to have ppl feel free to be nude (my sim isnt a "paradise" destination) its just a mall and

just because some tenants was selling sexual stuff i had to ask.

And also because in my sim lives an avatar witch is actually half human half animal... what we call a furry and some other ppl who like to walk around half naked. that was all.. and for just because i wanted to have my back covered i just asked. and thats what they told me.

It sounded to me very official answer and so i believe it.

Would you please paste here a link of where i can find more details about a M parcel and nudity
?

 

Thanks, and once again, im sorry if i spread wrong info

[ImaTest1488314069]

*Since 2005 I have seen less than five cases in which LL handed back a (rather large, to some) sum of money to someone after they reported a person. None of them involved a case remotely similar to this. All involved rl legal issues, or potential ones as well. In every case it was found the person paid, had done something fraudulent.

I have seen many reports, read many stories, seen many complaints, of people who have reported others. In all, but those I just mentioned, LL took an entirely neutral stance and would not involve themselves. That is their typical mantra, really. They do not involve themselves in the affairs of others unless law dictates they have to.

I am far from a huge supporter of the lab, but I have to believe there is good reason for this. Because of that, I have to believe there is good reason they took his payment back from you, and gave it to him. I don't know what the reason is, I won't speculate either. I will tell you to contact support, follow up on your ticket as asked, if asked, and let LL sort it out for you.

I have never seen someone report an escort and successfully get their money back. I have, however, read of many who tried to feeling that the escort in question was not as good as the person believed they paid for. In fact I have a contact that tried that once. Didn't get him very far either.

So, it's entirely possible LL has either seen something in the logs, or has reason to believe, you are a fraud, or did something fraudulent. Only they can tell you what it is. No one here can help you.

*Eta: I am sure there are more than those less than five, those are simply the ones I know about, without a doubt.

[PixiWise]

I have of course IM with him about and is even more tangled because he actually has another avatar as a second which first wrote a lot, and then wrote again with his main avi of which gave me the money. There were activities in SL and outside in skype too. I dont want to describe in sexual details. He is the real "teft", not me.

[Monti Messmer]

As said before, no Lindens are on this forums, no official answer.

First you said, Lindens took the money back now you paid it back ?!?

If you did the job and he paid for why did it scare you that he might send a report ?

Everyone can send an abuse report, Lindens will check and take appropriate actions based on chat-logs and more.

In your case i highly doubt that Lindens would involve themself into this resident-to-resident dispute.

Anyway, you send a report now all to do is wait. You won´t be informed about the ongoing case and no one will contact you in any way about the outcome.

Fingers crossed you get your money back, next time be brave don´t let ... scare you on that cases.

Good luck, Monti

[Freya Mokusei]

---

beethros Karas wrote:

It sounded to me very official answer and so i believe it.

Would you please paste here a link of where i can find more details about a M parcel and nudity

?

---

No. start your own thread.. It's an entirely separate issue with no relevance here.

---

PixiWise wrote:

I have of course IM with him about and is even more tangled because he actually has another avatar as a second which first wrote a lot, and then wrote again with his main avi of which gave me the money. There were activities in SL and outside in skype too.

---

It sure sounds like he was smart; this will make his actions much harder to track, while also making yours harder to prove. I would never engage anyone with this kind of obvious sneakery.

Mention all of this in your Appeal, including his alt's name and if you still have it, the start and end times of your chat in Skype, along with usernames. Obviously there's no way LL can check Skype, but it adds 'doubt' to his case, which is pretty much the best you can hope for.

Overall I think he might well get away with it, Not much is invested in investigations of this type. As ImaTest mentions above, these actions are rare: whenever it occurs it's usually because the case seems obvious immediately. You will have to put a fair amount of work into proving that he was hiding things from his report.

I hope this can, at least, be a learning exercise for you.

[ImaTest1488314069]

---

PixiWise wrote:

I have of course IM with him about and is even more tangled because he actually has another avatar as a second which first wrote a lot, and then wrote again with his main avi of which gave me the money. There were activities in SL and outside in skype too. I dont want to describe in sexual details. He is the real "teft", not me.

---

In other words you sold yourself, or your abilities. He got angry, for reasons only he can know. He reported you. After being reported LL thought it fitting to refund him his payment.

That's a pretty clear cut case, if you ask me. LL investigated, found you at fault, and refunded him. You can either appeal to LL via your ticket, or you can learn from it, and move on. LL may reverse that, and give you the funds back, after you appeal. But to be honest, I kinda doubt they will. Those are some pretty slim to non odds and I think slim just snuck out the back door. You did say you refunded him part of the money. They may well see that as admission of fraud, in some form. I don't know, I'm not them, so just guessing here. LL has absolutely no control or involvement in activities that happen outside of SL. If it happened in Skype, you're up **bleep** creek and LL won't touch that with a fifty foot prim. They shouldn't either, it has nothing to do with SL. If you want to use Skype for such things, you do so at your own risk. Of course you also do it in SL at your own risk too, but that's neither here nor there. They can't possibly address an issue that happened outside of SL.

Stick by your appeal to your ticket and see what LL says. I wouldn't be surprised if they told you to take a long walk off a short pier though. I'm guessing by refunding him, they've already made their decision.

No one needs details, well maybe someone who's super desperate for wank material would like them, but they aren't really relevant to the issue at hand, regardless.

 

[PixiWise]

I do not know exactly what you do not become clear. It is very simple. SL took my money and returned it to him.
There is nothing wrong with what I did ...

---

Monti Messmer wrote:

As said before, no Lindens are on this forums, no official answer.

First you said, Lindens took the money back now you paid it back ?!?

If you did the job and he paid for why did it scare you that he might send a report ?

Everyone can send an abuse report, Lindens will check and take appropriate actions based on chat-logs and more.

In your case i highly doubt that Lindens would involve themself into this resident-to-resident dispute.

Anyway, you send a report now all to do is wait. You won´t be informed about the ongoing case and no one will contact you in any way about the outcome.

Fingers crossed you get your money back, next time be brave don´t let ... scare you on that cases.

Good luck, Monti

---

 

[Freya Mokusei]

---

ImaTest wrote:

That's a pretty clear cut case, if you ask me. LL investigated, found you at fault, and refunded him. You can either appeal to LL via your ticket, or you can learn from it, and move on. LL may reverse that, and give you the funds back, after you appeal. But to be honest, I kinda doubt they will. Those are some pretty slim to non odds and I think slim just snuck out the back door. You did say you refunded him part of the money. They may well see that as admission of fraud, in some form. I don't know, I'm not them, so just guessing here. LL has absolutely no control or involvement in activities that happen outside of SL. If it happened in Skype, you're up **bleep** creek and LL won't touch that with a fifty foot prim. They shouldn't either, it has nothing to do with SL. If you want to use Skype for such things, you do so at your own risk. Of course you also do it in SL at your own risk too, but that's neither here nor there. They can't possibly address an issue that happened outside of SL.

 

---

This is brilliantly on-the-mark. Others can usually word things far better than I, thanks ImaTest.

The reaction by LL in this case is equivilent to what happens when someone uses sneaky tricks to intercept money from purchases made at an SL store, or when people shop on Marketplace and receive only wooden cubes. It is 'clear' fraud, as far as they are concerned.

[PixiWise]

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

---

ImaTest wrote:

That's a pretty clear cut case, if you ask me. LL investigated, found you at fault, and refunded him. You can either appeal to LL via your ticket, or you can learn from it, and move on. LL may reverse that, and give you the funds back, after you appeal. But to be honest, I kinda doubt they will. Those are some pretty slim to non odds and I think slim just snuck out the back door. You did say you refunded him part of the money. They may well see that as admission of fraud, in some form. I don't know, I'm not them, so just guessing here. LL has absolutely no control or involvement in activities that happen outside of SL. If it happened in Skype, you're up **bleep** creek and LL won't touch that with a fifty foot prim. They shouldn't either, it has nothing to do with SL. If you want to use Skype for such things, you do so at your own risk. Of course you also do it in SL at your own risk too, but that's neither here nor there. They can't possibly address an issue that happened outside of SL.

 

---

This is brilliantly on-the-mark. Others can usually word things far better than I, thanks ImaTest.

The reaction by LL in this case is equivilent to what happens when someone uses sneaky tricks to intercept money from purchases made at an SL store, or when people shop on Marketplace and receive only wooden cubes. It is 'clear' fraud, as far as they are concerned.

---

Nothing brilliantly here i see. 

What you say, anyone can guess. But the question is to discuss why it is done? It is a violation of the rules and laws in the world. If so violate the rules in this life, someone /i mean the support stuff/ decided like that for a minute without seeing the situation to where we are?

[Trinity Yazimoto]

hum, firstly im really surprised LL got involved in such resident dispute and so fast. 

but anyway... yesterday, this forum has been spammed by the other person... for about 1 or 2 hour, this person didnt stop to create new threads  in a of forum's category. And inside the thread themselves he pasted again and again the same post whatever the forumer were answering to him. What this person said, was that he sent to you the money by mistake and Pixie wasnt answering his ims for she refund the money.

If this person reported Pixie with this story, it make sense then that LL reacted and refunded the other person. And its completely different than LL thought Pixie made a fraud. 

So i dont know where is the truth here and i dont even want to know.. but Pixie, you have to know this is what he reported you about. If your version is true, you need absolutely to answer the ticket the link they sent to you and explain clearly your version of what happened. 

[Freya Mokusei]

---

PixiWise wrote:

What you say, anyone can guess. But the question is to discuss why it is done? It is a violation of the rules and laws in the world. If so violate the rules in this life, someone /i mean the support stuff/ decided like that for a minute without seeing the situation to where we are?

---

Cases are judged based on evidence presented. This is standard everywhere. Unfortunately for you, your client made it deliberately difficult to obtain this evidence fairly. LL don't have to explain their decision to anyone, and their arbitrary actions are the laws of this world.

Fairness isn't a concept that exists here or in RL. Sorry, and I hope you're more cautious in future.

[PixiWise]

---

Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

hum, firstly im really surprised LL got involved in such resident dispute and so fast. 

but anyway... yesterday, this forum has been spammed by the other person... for about 1 or 2 hour, this person didnt stop to create new threads  in a of forum's category. And inside the thread themselves he pasted again and again the same post whatever the forumer were answering to him. What this person said, was that he sent to you the money by mistake and Pixie wasnt answering his ims for she refund the money.

If this person reported Pixie with this story, it make sense then that LL reacted and refunded the other person. And its completely different than LL thought Pixie made a fraud. 

So i dont know where is the truth here and i dont even want to know.. but Pixie, you have to know this is what he reported you about. If your version is true, you need absolutely to answer the ticket the link they sent to you and explain clearly your version of what happened. 

---

Thanks that you checked that info.

He's lying of course. I can not describe in words what offended me after he paid me and i did escort. Everything that can be insulted a woman in private chat and general chat has also insults. I do not understand how come they believed it was "a mistake." Why not send a error like this every day 25,000 every of us?

Also I wrote on the link of the case that support sent me back ... Bottom three comments made, writing and writing. No response from

[ImaTest1488314069]

---

PixiWise wrote:

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

---

ImaTest wrote:

That's a pretty clear cut case, if you ask me. LL investigated, found you at fault, and refunded him. You can either appeal to LL via your ticket, or you can learn from it, and move on. LL may reverse that, and give you the funds back, after you appeal. But to be honest, I kinda doubt they will. Those are some pretty slim to non odds and I think slim just snuck out the back door. You did say you refunded him part of the money. They may well see that as admission of fraud, in some form. I don't know, I'm not them, so just guessing here. LL has absolutely no control or involvement in activities that happen outside of SL. If it happened in Skype, you're up **bleep** creek and LL won't touch that with a fifty foot prim. They shouldn't either, it has nothing to do with SL. If you want to use Skype for such things, you do so at your own risk. Of course you also do it in SL at your own risk too, but that's neither here nor there. They can't possibly address an issue that happened outside of SL.

 

---

This is brilliantly on-the-mark. Others can usually word things far better than I, thanks ImaTest.

The reaction by LL in this case is equivilent to what happens when someone uses sneaky tricks to intercept money from purchases made at an SL store, or when people shop on Marketplace and receive only wooden cubes. It is 'clear' fraud, as far as they are concerned.

---

Nothing brilliantly here i see. 

What you say, anyone can guess. But the question is to discuss why it is done? It is a violation of the rules and laws in the world. If so violate the rules in this life, someone /i mean the support stuff/ decided like that for a minute without seeing the situation to where we are?

---

Why is what done? Why was the money refunded to him? Because LL clearly thinks you did something wrong. Ask them. No one here can possibly answer that question, we don't know. It is not a violation of any rules or laws for LL to give him his money back, if they indeed found you at fault for something. If you believe it does violate some law or rule, please cite that law or rule here. Then we can discuss it.

Until then, you're best off waiting until LL can answer your ticket because no one here will have more info to give you. I do not believe for one second that LL did not investigate the matter before giving him his money back. I have NEVER seen, or read, of them doing that. It's extremely rare for anyone to get LL to refund their money in cases where there has been clear fraud, let alone in cases where there is anything remotely questionable.

In other words, I side with LL until you have some solid proof they had no reason to refund him. The solid proof would of course be them refunding the money to you, and them explaining. I don't forsee that happening.

 

[Teagan Tobias]

I saw the post the other day, it was up and gone rather quickly, it said the money was sent by accident. As I recall there was no mention of product or services, only that the money was transferred accidentally.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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ImaTest wrote:

---

Why is what done? Why was the money refunded to him? Because LL clearly thinks you did something wrong. 

 

Not forcelly. We all know here that usually LL doesnt get involve in such disputes and rarely seek to know who is wrong or right. 

But it makes more sense if the report has been done saying he sent the money by mistake. Like when LL fix if you make multiple purchase on the MP (rarely but it happens) or when sm1 send money by mistake (ive seen this happening here in the forum multiple times. And usually when someone come here and ask an advice about such problem this is the answer that is usually given : submit a ticket). In this case, its no more a residents dispute but a mistake and it changes everything. And from what i know from my experience, LL are more likely to fix mistakes than disputes.

As i said, i dont know who is right in this story, and i dont want to know.. this is not my business. but ive seen what the other person made yesterday in the forum... The multiple threads have been deleted but i have 

still 

 some posts from these threads in my mailbox... and what he said was clearly that he sent this money by mistake and that Pixi wasnt answering to his ims for she refund the money. This change everything about the way to figure the whole story and how LL could understand the pb and react to it.