[Suggestion To MP] flag/remove COPYBOTTED (pirated) items in the Marketplace

[Super String]

This is the unfair side of MP flagging system -- a blameless marketplace product would probably be flagged or removed due to flagging abuse, however, a copybotted or pirated item can still live well in MP and stay dutiless under current flagging system.

I personally have been one of the victims of this situation, and this also makes me curious (and worried) about that since more and more people can easily use DD to sell in MP, are there growing number of pirated products being sold at content thieves' stores in MP?

I hope Marketplace Team will serioauly consider including "this item is copybotted/pirated" as part of the "Reason For Flag" or combine this flagging process with inworld abuse system to avoid copybotted /stolen content keeping spreading in MP.

[Ry0ta Exonar]

Unfortunately LL can do nothing about that. They can only deal with DMCA notifications when filed by the copyright holder because they can't judge if the flagging is legit or not. Here is a perfect explanation by Chosen Few: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Where-do-I-report-stolen-mesh-game-files-from-other-games-that/m-p/1587947#M15559

Yes, I know it's VERY frustrating, but all we can do is just file a DMCA notification when we catch rippers. Yes, I see growing numbers of stolen contents on the marketplace, at least in my sector.

[Stari Adder]

 this situation reminds me the real world fake products like bags, clothing and etc of known trademarks

but you know it is really impossible to check  all the stores in small or big towns and find out what they sell and do they have the right for it, even if they were notified

And we are talking about really well known brands... so what can LL do for unknown designers from virtual world if they can not handle spreading the known brands in here without permission =) I guess it is simply impossible

And also maybe it is better to talk with creator or market owner why do they sell stolen stuff... but they always can tell that this is the original creation... who knows we are all people and think in the same direction and sometimes have really close ideas

just my opinion so no offence

[Super String]

stari, I don't think it's like RL situation. Whether virtual creations are built in the 2d or 3d software, creators have original building process files of their creations, take my case for example, even the textures of my mesh stuff are computer-generated from specific 3d environment settings with specific lighting and material properties, so it's almost impossible to rebuild the same 3d environment files as the original one, not to say that the geometry of mesh itself is gradually built as model layers or history data or different files across different applications. RL brand is a different case because RL designers just "design", but they don't produce the phisical world and atom of the leather or plastic or metal by themselves and they can't save and recall a moment of the birth of their producitons as the proof in their computer. 

2d creators can build their textures in much higher resolutions and only to sell them with lower ones.

In some cases the creation owners can provide/upload bulk of evidential digital files directly when they flag an item, and in some cases the stolen behavior is too obvious, Marketplace team should consider to allow creation owners to have an online tool to flag this kind of items. 

[Chelsea Malibu]

That may be true in RL however, all digital products in SL share the same database.  It's far from impossible.  Creating knock offs in one thing as it is in SL however, this would be more like robbing a warehouse and selling those goods. 

A copybot is most definitely not a knock off.

[Super String]

thank you Ry0ta.

yeah...very unfortunately...I hate that SL is theft-friendly. 

 

In my opinion, the level of easiness to judge the creation's copyright varies from case to case. Some controversial cases might need to be judged through DMCA, but in some cases, the stolen behavior is too obvious to be confusing. For example, if my store's name is "LLSL" and my product's name is "LLSL Bike", and another merchant sells exactly the same bike which is also called "LLSL Bike", and I own sufficient original computer files (evidence) which can be provided to LL... Why SLMP only gives me flagging tools for wrong listing category and keyword spam but doesn't allow me to report this content theft, isn't it ironic??  

I hope Linden Lab will consider to add "obvious copybotted items" as one of the flagging choices that allows copyright holders to flag stolen items (the flagging process includes uploading original files / evidence of the copyright).

Linden Lab, would you consider providing SLMP users this service?   (since copybot is not banned, give us a convinient tool to report copybotted items on the Marketplace!!!!!!)

[Ry0ta Exonar]

Actually LL was looking to (or pretending to looking to) provide a better tool for content creators to report IP infringements when they announced Content Management Roadmap some years ago, but as far as I recall there has been no update ever since then. There seemed to be some pilot program to the IP complaint process. I'm interested in what it looked like. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Frequently_Asked_Questions_on_the_IP_Complaint_Process#I_hear_there.E2.80.99s_a_pilot_program_related_to_the_IP_complaint_process._What_is_that_about.3F

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Super String wrote:

I hope Linden Lab will consider to add

"obvious copybotted items"

as one of the flagging choices that allows copyright holders to flag stolen items (the flagging process includes uploading original files / evidence of the copyright).

Linden Lab, w

ould you consider providing SLMP users this service?   (since copybot is not banned, give us a convinient tool to report copybotted items on the Marketplace!!!!!!)

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I wish they could provide such a service too, but still that means they have to be a judge and they don't want to do that.

[Super String]

In my opinion I doubt Linden Lab really has a problem-solving department to manage copybot and piracy issues.

There're many ways to protect copyrights, it all depends on LL's attitude. if LL can curb the main source of crimes (copybots) in the first place, there'll be much less IP infringements to waste everybody's time. However, LL's attitude, whether to the prevention or removal of the piracy both encurages the happenning of piracy, and leads SL to a government-sponsored theft-friendly virtual world. 

To judge the copyright might be disputable in some cases, but what I've observed in Marketplace recently is that the content thief is even too unskillful to rebuild what he steals, just grabbing another creator's product and Ad, and selling the exact copy (or maybe just selling the AD images copied from another store--no one really knows what's really inside the product) on the second life Marketplace.

If Linden Lab can't even judge and be willing to deal with such of obvious content rip-off, how and why content creators and potential creators will invest in something full of risks of being stolen?

I'm not talking about a complictaed case like Curios / Hush copyright dispute, what I'm talikg about is like, for example, a guy directly ripped Curios's skins and uses Curios's AD pics and sells them on the marketplace...does this kind of ripp-off need to be judged via DMCA?? what a ridiculous example, isn't it? But sort of situation is exactly what's happenning on the Second Life Marketplace now. Why this kind of obvious piracy case can't be reported if the owner found his/her creations being directly ripped and sold on the Marketplace? 

If it can't be solved by LL, I could just hope the new virtual world which is now preparing releasing a marketplace will have a more responsible attitude toward IP infringements in the future.

 

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By the way, personally, I feel very sorry to see Curios / Hush copyright dispute recently, and Ry0ta I'm sorry for your experience too. Skin copyright dispute might be more difficult to judge, it gives content thieves more room to escape, however, even though, if LL's attitude toward piracy tools can be less tolerant in the first place, more than half of the IP infringements today don't even exist. Many creators have lots complaints about LL, because they feel themselves are not only the victim of content thieves but also primarily the victim of LL's tolerent attitude to piracy tools and careless attitude to piracy removal.

[Sassy Romano]

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Super String wrote:

I'm not talking about a complictaed case like Curios / Hush copyright dispute, what I'm talikg about is like,

for example, a guy directly ripped Curios's skins and uses Curios's AD pics and sells them on the marketplace

...

does this kind of ripp-off need to be judged via DMCA??

what a ridiculous example, isn't it? But sort of situation is exactly what's happenning on the Second Life Marketplace now. Why this kind of obvious piracy case can't be reported if the owner found his/her creations being directly ripped and sold on the Marketplace? 

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Because LL don't play policeman, judge or jury.  Who's to say that the person who placed the second version wasn't in fact the original copyright holder?  I'm not saying that I disagree with you and while some things might seem obvious

is it right that LL play the judge and jury here?

Also, i've seen group chats where someone claimed that someone else had copybotted their item.  When you looked at both items, they were similar but definitely not a copy.  There are after all only so many ways that a typical ironing board will turn out.  The dimensions weren't the same, the textures weren't the same but she screamed it was "LIKE" hers.  If rampant auto removal were permitted then there'd be a whole load of "but it's like mine" flagging sessions no doubt.

[Super String]

sassy I believe it's not a problem. becasue even though the final result of the both skins look the same, the original skin creator must own the original files (including source material images, editing process history, texture layers, different files in progress, etc) as the powerful evidence.

if I were a skin creator, I would create my skins in much higher resolutions (for example 3000x3000 pix), but to reduce the resolutions when I sell them (actually the maximum pic in SL is 1024x1024 pix), and maybe I can use smart object layers in PS to keep the larger detailed source pictures or files or vectors, all those evidence are pretty scientific and cannot be created reversely. Therefore, a thief might be possible to grab the final result of a skin creator's work, but there's no way for him to rebuild the settings and source materials and editing process which composed this final texture. And if the thief  dared trying to increase the resolutions of the stolen textures, all he got could only be blurry pixels.

In most cases probably uploading one pdf file can simply prove everything. 

 

 

[Sassy Romano]

I had an issue with an item that was removed from MP because someone flagged it for showing a female nipple.  It didn't.  I even sent LL the texture overlaid on top if the UV map to prove this.

LL disagreed despite concrete evidence.

On this basis I would rather NOT have LL sitting in judgement of anything where graphics, copywright or any other IP claim is made, they have demonstrated to me that this is not a skill that is within the organisation.

DMCA and other copyright claims remain firmly in the legal domain.

[Super String]

it's pretty similar to what I've mentioned in the begining of this thread, MP falgging system seems to be very "efficient" when being used abusively, but nearly useless when something really matters needs to be reported and resolved.

flagging disputes also occur in judging incorrect categories, keywords, or cases like yours, etc, but the reporter never be asked to provide any evidence or descriptions, why flagging abuse (like your case) can be passed ("judged") so easily without evidence, but stolen stuff can't even be reported? 

in some cases the copyright owner can provide sufficient original files but the thief cannot provide anything, it doesn't make sense that MP only allow people to flag (or abusively flag) a product's "showing nipple" or so without evidence, but refuse people with evidence to flag content thefts.

thieves should not pass.

some thieves can even take both advantage of flagging abuse and LL's careless attitude to piracy, not only ripping from other merchnat's products but also abusively flag the original product. 

 

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

I had an issue with an item that was removed from MP because someone flagged it for showing a female nipple.  It didn't.  I even sent LL the texture overlaid on top if the UV map to prove this.

LL disagreed despite concrete evidence.

On this basis I would rather NOT have LL sitting in judgement of anything where graphics, copywright or any other IP claim is made, they have demonstrated to me that this is not a skill that is within the organisation.

DMCA and other copyright claims remain firmly in the legal domain.

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was it showing a male nipple?

[Sassy Romano]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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was it showing a male nipple?

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Not originally but it has since then...

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Sassys-Noteable-Desire-UNISEX-Dress/668223

[Sassy Romano]

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Super String wrote:

it's pretty similar to what I've mentioned in the begining of this thread, MP falgging system seems to be very "efficient" when being used

abusively,

 but nearly useless when something really matters needs to be reported and resolved.

 

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I much preferred the old flagging system where you could enter a comment.

So what might be better would be a method to "Flag as copied item/copyright infringement" and have it notify the original creator.  This would work for inworld SL content but still doesn't resolve copyright infringement of external goods.

[Super String]

better than nothing, as long as this method can really help to verify the copyright and clean stolen items.  

I'm not so naive to assume that all copyright infringement cases will be resolved by one tool, in one day, but I'm also not so naive to believe that LL can do nothing to solve any copyright infringement at any level (because this is a lie). If 2 sculpties share the same UUID, LL can't judge who's the original creator by any uploading record or data (maybe the thief has a copybot in his inventory)? If someone reports that Mark Ryden's paintings being sold as prim paintings in the second life, can't LL judge copyright infringement by themselves? As I've said, the dificulty of judging copyright infringement is from case to case, some case is really complicated but it doen't represent that all content thieves should be passed.    

that should not be LL's excuse. not every content thief is good at 2d or 3d programs (if they're good, they don't need to steal), some thieves probably can't even try to rebuild and provide any evidence. Thus, it doesn't make sense to mix all copyright infringement cases altogether, and using this excuse to not resolve the easy and simple cases.

 

I'm not asking for a 100% perfect tool, I'm looking for some improvement (MP) and responsibility (LL) and fair play (Merchants) and a civilized virtual world (for all).

 

[Sassy Romano]

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Super String wrote:

If someone reports that Mark Ryden's paintings being sold as prim paintings in the second life, can't LL judge

copyright infringement by themselves? 

 

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No because that's making an assumption that the person doing it isn't the copyright owner in RL using an SL account or assuming that the person doing it doesn't have rights to do so.  Whether it's likely or not, it's not LL's place to make such assumptions, they're not good at doing the right thing as it is!

I agree that it's not ideal as it is but it's the proper legal route and LL are taking that stance.

[Super String]

My opinion is still the same, if this case can't be judged, this is still not an excuse for LL to not deal with other cases.

 

[Sassy Romano]

Too complex, they can't judge what's complex and what's simple (or apparently appears to be).  It's just not simple.

[Super String]

this is totally not complex at all. truth speaks, and the truth is hidden in the original files. when a creator reports a copybotted item, he provides his original files, for example, if one creator's pdf or obj or dae or whatever files can provide strong evidence but the other creator has no ability to provide any evidence, this is what I mean a simple case. and if two of the creators both provide evidence and LL can't judge who's the owner, the dispute remains unsolved, this case is what I mean complex. as I said, it's case by case, whether how difficult and complex a case is, it's not an excuse to cancel other copyright infringements without judgement.

take skin as example, most skin creators use diffrernt layers and image sources to compose the final skin texture. it's actually very easy to judge which is the original file, as long as the copyright owner himself hold enough files.   

why SL users have an impression that it's difficult to judge skins? because they only judge them by the final texture they see, but no creation was born from nothing, what can provide evidence is not the final texture but the original files which contains layers and editing records. the original files can reveal the evidence that sl users can't judge inworld, especially when the creation is very professional, it needs more building process, and those materials are impossibly to be recbuilt again in reverse (even for the creator himself). I know some creations might be very simple and the copyright owners might not be able to provide strong evidence, but there're also other creators who have lots evidence and have the ability to prove his copyright, if you give him the court, the truth can speak for him.

what I assume is that the police and court should not be absent, though to define and judge a crime has never been easy. giving people an useful protection system to report and punish the crimes is one thing, the result of every single charge is another.

 

[Paul Hexem]

I don't trust LL to know what day it is, I would never trust them to be able to figure out what you're asking.

[Cherrie Juneberry]

Reviewing these files would be more work for LL (and so they will not be a fan of your suggestion), and would take up their bandwidth and storage to boot.  If you can be bothered to do all that, including sending the file, then why not just send a DMCA takedown notice? 

 

 

How would this work technically?  Would the button click prompt the clicker to send the file or would they have to wait for someone at LL to tell them to send the file, introducing a delay that would likely make action take longer than just sending a DMCA take down notice? 

 

Why not just send a DMCA take down notice? 

[Super String]

Cherrie, just like other online report system in SL, when you submit a ticket or to file a jira case, it allows or requires you to upload attached files along with the report, what I assume is something like that. 

send a DMCA would be ok, but the evidence such as 2d or 3d files are not just papers, if emails can be an option to do DMCA, both the company and creators can deal with the computer files in a more efficient way (don't tell me that email can't be the option, as far as I know, aonther virtual world allow people to do DMCA via emails), but email is not an option so far in SL, and MP already has a flagging system, especially when more and more copybotted items spreading on the marketplace, this flagging system can do something positive to help this corrupt situation and also share some works that DMCA receives. 

I know reviewing these files might bring more work for LL, but since they're not willing to ban copybot viewers in the first place to eliminate troubles, thosee troubles eventually bring them more work. remember it is not the copyright infringement reports bring them more work, it is LL's tolerance of copybot results in more and more copyright infringements and disputes for them to deal with. it all depends on this company how troublesome they want their work to be.

[Sassy Romano]

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Super String wrote:

but email is not an option so far in SL

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Yes it is.  LL will accept email in place of fax/mail as long as the email is digitally signed by a certificate which is issued by a trusted certificate issuer.

DMCA remains in the domain of the legal process and not within the realm of LL's hands.

[Super String]

By the way, copyright infringements and disputes won't disappear automatically even if my suggesion or other similar appeals were not accepted by LL, I'm nothing to them, and I don't need to depend on this company either, (even that my personal copyrightinfringement case is only just a miserable thief grabbed my L$1 dollarbie AD and put it on his own AD with another item which can't even been seen in the image, sold as L$99 each--changed to L$50 about 3 days ago, even people with the worst math knowledge on earth won't buy from him, what can I lose from it?), but what really matters is when you start to see such brainless and shameless stolen behavior appears on the marketplace, can you keep silent? can marketplace remains silent? this kind of marketplace is corrupt.