Vivienne Daguerre

Note: The vertex count in the picture are from ZBrush. The uploader gave a slightly higher vertex count, as outlined in the original post.

I have looked at the complex calculations for prim equivalency, and understand that they are complex, taking into account not only the number of triangles, but size, physics shape and LOD. I understand that mesh should result in less lag on the grid, but also that the data that must be streamed is greater to include UV maps and such. Given the above, we cannot perhaps expect mesh to be as low prim as we would like it to be. To the little guy, the average Joe Resident who is our customer, all that will matter is prim count, especially if he is sitting on a 512 m piece of land with only 117 prims to furnish it. I wanted to remake a stew kettle that I have on the main grid that is 3 prims, using one sculpty and two normal prims, using mesh. I wanted to keep the polygon count very low, hoping for a 1 prim or less than 1 prim stew kettle. Here is the result: I uploaded these on Mesh Sandbox 15, and again on 29 to make sure that the server version on 15 was not outdated. From the upload window, I had the following data: Low Resolution: 370 vertices, 576 triangles, resource cost estimate 2.373 prims It rezzed at 4 prims. Higher Resolution: 1347 vertices, 2376 triangles, resource cost estimate 5.878 prims It rezzed at 10 prims. The low resolution version is blocky, and I expected that it would have a prim equivalency of perhaps .25 or .5 prim, considering that a sculpty has 1024 vertices and this one had only 370 vertices. I think 4 prims for this is completely unacceptable. If it had come in at 1 prim or less, even blocky it would have been welcomed by those wanting low prim count stuff (almost everyone). The higher resolution version is nice, and still low resolution at 1347 vertices. 10 prims for this is outrageous. I think it should have come in at 1.5 prims perhaps. I know I will get lectured that you can't really compare mesh to sculpties in terms of prim count and vertices. The problem is that our customers will be doing that kind of comparison and will have low prim expectations. Given the choice of the three pots, the customer will want the 3 prim sculpty and normal prim original. We content creators will create and deliver what sells, what the customer demands. I see this as a huge problem. I love mesh, prefer to make mesh, and want to see mesh succeed. This issue could impact greatly on how well mesh is accepted and used on the main grid. I hope prim equivalency can be improved.

I am very excited! I will work in earnest now in order to have a good quantity of mesh items to stock my store with when mesh hits the grid. People will be excited and will be looking for it.

Yes, you can rig mesh to the SL avatar. There is a forum thread on this that you may find interesting. http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Show-us-your-Mesh-Clothing/td-p/820043

I hear and understand the frustrations around this issue. I had some animations and a couple of items I made for someone else to sell with full and exclusive rights get "leaked" out through errors in setting permissions before placing them for sale. The problem was corrected quickly, but the few that did get out quickly spread over the grid and people were selling them who had no right to. There are some items that do not have to be copybotted that are sold with full permissions because they have to be for others to use them, such as textures to be used by builders in making things to sell. In one case such as this, I determined to deprive the person reselling of profit. I simply decided to give that item away as a freebie. At least that way I benefited from it in that it created some good will.

There would appear to be technical ways to copy mesh that we cannot protect ourselves against. I do know that the scripting inside the object, if any, is safe enough. I don't know if a copybotted rigged mesh would come out with the rigging intact. The best the Lindens can do is tighten up their policy, for example deciding whether or not the creator needs to file an abuse report or DMCA, or if anyone who spotted it could file an abuse report to have it acted upon. For example, if I see something from WOW, would an abuse report from me be enough for the Lindens to act on it and take it down, or would Blizzard have to file a DMCA? If I see hair that is from a well known maker with another person listed as creator, could I file an abuse report on that and have the Lindens look at it? As for discovery, you will likely find out from others if someone has stolen your content. A friend might tell you, or someone might even complain at being asked to pay for something in your store when they saw it elsewhere for a lower price or for free. That happened to me once with a Native American Woman's dress I had made. The dress was completely hand painted and totally an original work. The stolen content was identical. The Lindens took down the stolen content, removing it from everyone's inventory who had it as created by the thief, and I was satisfied. They would not tell me of any action taken against the thief, and I was okay with that, privacy issues considered. It would have been nice to have a pound of flesh, but that is an unreasonable demand. It would be nice to get some formal statement of their policy revisions, and I am sure that we will when mesh hits the grid. We know it has been of concern to them and no doubt a high priority. The big boys, like Blizzard, would certainly come after them with greater legal resources than you or I would have. It is not reasonable to demand that the Lindens make it technically impossible to steal mesh, for it is impossible for them to do so. This does not mean that they are inherently evil, out to make your life a misery, or do things on purpose to upset you or "screw" you. It is just not possible for them to technically eliminate all ways by which content can be stolen.

The skirt does respond like the system mesh skirt with that kind of bending and ballooning up over the thighs. I was not able to get the skirt closer to the thighs for sitting, which would have been nice. When I tried it messed up the creasing at the hips, and of course walking would have looked terrible. I need the skirt to billow out over the legs. You could make a tighter mesh skirt that might adhere better to the thighs, but that would be a different style. Shape is part of the issue here as well. Mesh has its drawbacks. Another problem with mesh skirts, both new mesh and the system mesh skirts, is that they do not handle crossed legs, standing or sitting, very well, and I do not see any way around that. Some people don't like the look of mesh skirts, or at least long ones like I make. I am thinking that some people will prefer the long flexi skirts to the long mesh skirts. Mesh will be great though for jackets, tops, anything that you want to move with the arms and torso, although there will be fit issues that can be overcome mostly through the use of alpha layers. For my next women's outfit, I am going to try something with a mesh tunic and undershirt with long sleeves combined with a long, flex prim skirt under it. the tunic will still cover the thighs and there may be some rubbery ballooning there, but I think people might like the flex prim bottom better. The ballooning is part of the cost of having the top part move with the torso, pelvis and hips. Clothing makers will experiment and play around, and customers will respond through their purchases. We all put up with some oddities of SL. What people want and buy will determine in the end what we designers make. Mesh will not make other tools obsolete. It is just another tool in our tool box.

We have such a helpful group of people here! :matte-motes-big-grin:

Thanks so much for clarifying this Drongle.

Here is my latest. It is a rigged mesh medieval style dress and non-rigged mesh shoes. Here are some pictures of my progress along the way for those interested in such things, from Blender to ZBrush.

Looks good! I must say, you seem to be picking it up quickly.

I don't have time to spend as a mentor, but I did put together some links that may help a noob get started. I put them on a notecard in world. I have copied it here for you, hoping it gives you a place to start from. Someone asked me recently what programs I use to make mesh. I thought others might find this information useful as well. I use ZBrush mostly, which I bought and learned to make sculpties. It is a great program that costs around $700 US. It enables professionals in the game and movie industries to detail, paint and texture on high polygon versions of their models that other programs could not support and make textures and normal maps to preserve the find detail to apply to lower polygon versions of their models. It was meant as a finishing tool, and does that extremely well. It is widely used by professionals for that purpose and has been used on many newer movies, such as Avatar. It is one of the lower priced programs and I love the sculpting tools. ZBrush does not do everything I need it to do, such as rigging and weighting mesh to be worn by avatars as avatar replacements or as mesh clothing. For that I had to learn Blender. I find it easier to rough out a base mesh with uniformly placed quads and extra edge loops in areas where I need greater detail in Blender than in ZBrush, so I start in Blender and then move to ZBrush. Blender is also better at making and manipulating UV maps. A plug in was recently made that handles sculpty export from ZBrush and collada export, which works just fine for static mesh. Blender is a free program, and some people use Blender alone to make wonderful sculpties and mesh. It is a powerful program. My back and forth process looks like this: 1. Make basic mesh in Blender. This permits me to rough out a very low poly form with perfect quads. I can extrude, select edge loops, add edge loops to areas where I want more detail, and so on. 2. Export basic mesh as an .obj and then import that into ZBrush. There I can subdivide the model to get good density to sculpt detail into and shape the mesh. Once I have done so, I move down to the lowest subdivision level and export that as an .obj. 3. Take the shaped mesh back into Blender as an .obj import. I then mark the seams where I want the UV map to be cut to make islands that will make sense to me. I unwrap the mesh and check out the UV map to make sure it is good. I then export the mesh again as an .obj, usually adding “UV mapped” to the name to avoid confusion. 4. Weight your mesh in Blender. At this point you can export the mesh as collada and set that aside, ready to take into Second Life. 5. Import the .obj UV mapped mesh back into ZBrush, and using the UV Master plugin I hit the “copy UVs” button. I then load up the subdivided mesh model I was working on and take the geometry down to the lowest level. I then open up the UV Master plug in again and hit the “paste UVs” button. This works very well! 6. Now I can texture it in ZBrush using that program’s fantastic tools at the highest subdivision level. When done, make a texture map from your polypaint, clone it, flip it vertically, and export it out. 7. Go into the test grid and import your collada model as weighted mesh and your texture. Put them together, and voila! Here are some links for you to learn more and help you get started: 3D Modelling Start Links BLENDER LINKS Blender download (get 2.49 version): http://www.blender.org/ Machinimatrix Blender Sculptie Tutorials: http://blog.machinimatrix.org/ Machinimatrix Introduction to SL Mesh: http://blog.machinimatrix.org/2010/09/15/meshes-i-a-preliminary-tutorial-about-meshes/ Machinimatrix Blender Static Mesh Tutorials: http://blog.machinimatrix.org/2010/10/12/the-meshes-trail-is-out/ Blender Video Tutorials: http://www.youtube.com/cannedmushrooms#g/c/1EA3895B386258A4 ZBRUSH LINKS Pixologic Home Page: http://www.pixologic.com/home.php ZBrush Central Forums ZBrush 4 Features: http://www.pixologic.com/home.php ZBrush Central Forums SL Sculpty Tools & Collada Export Plugin for ZBrush: http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?p=725133 Shiny Life: Vlad Beornsen's SL ZBrush Tutorials and Blog: http://www.shiny-life.com/ ZBrush 4 Video Tutorials: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=AF8FE85B2A969BD3 OTHERS Google Sketchup (Good for buildings & furniture, free and easy to learn): http://sketchup.google.com/ Daz Hexagon 2: http://www.daz3d.com/i/software/hexagon Autodesk 3dsMax: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?id=13567410&siteID=123112 Autodesk Maya: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?id=13577897&siteID=123112 Luxology Modo: http://www.luxology.com/modo/

I think most people will switch to Viewer 2 or a third party compatible viewer for mesh and larger prims. I cannot imagine anyone willing to settle for a lesser experience of Second Life. They would constantly be missing out. Mesh is going to take off when it hits the grid.

You have my vote! I don't know if they pay attention to votes anymore, but for what it might be worth, you have it!

Yes, I did use subtools and merged down with polygroups turned on. This was helpful, and the polygroups are preserved as groups when you take it into Blender as an .obj file. You can then select the subtools and hide the rest in Blender, even though it is one mesh. This is important for making UV maps. I still had pieces, for I made the shirt, vest, pants, bracer and boots as separate meshes. I would keep the bracers and boots separate, but in future it would be easier if I made the shirt, pants and vest as all one mesh, with some subtools for details like buckles later merged in. The problem is when you have meshes layered over top of each other. I deleted much of the shirt and pant mesh vertices which were covered by the vest. Even so, there remained some overlap and in some extreme animation poses a bit of the shirt or pants will poke out through the vest. I will experiment more in my next mesh outfit, which will be another dress. I want to try making detailed bits and pieces and then try projecting them into the dress mesh. I don't know if that will be a good idea in the end or not. I will let you know! It's all a learning process.

I did not extract mesh from the avatar. I have not had much success with that. I find the results are somewhat messy. I created my base meshes in Blender and brought them into ZBrush as an .obj import to work on. I did all my sculpting in ZBrush, took it back to Blender to make UV maps, and then back into ZBrush to bake light and shadows and make texture. Gotta love spotlight! I bake on an untextured high poly model and export that to photoshop, and then turn that texture off, and texture the model using spotlight. I export the texture to photoshop and combine them with the bake, using multiply. This gives me more control over the light and shadow. I can adjust the opaqueness of the bake layer, or even double it to get the effect I want. I can paint in more highlights and shadows if I want on yet another layer.

I wanted to start this up again here on the new forums. Here is a link to this topic in the archives for those who wish to look back at old entries. And here is my latest mesh outfit! I will just post pictures here, and anyone interested in more details can find them on my blog.

I hope it works! Great work.

At present there is no way to get weighted mesh to move with the morph sliders, so you are pretty much limited. However, bone length, shoulder width and hip width sliders do work on your mesh and that is a good thing. You can make an alpha texture to be worn with your mesh which makes the body parts it covers invisible. That way you will not have feet sticking outside of boots and shoes, or a butt or breasts sticking out of your mesh. This gets tricky when you don't want all of the avatar hidden, as in mesh clothing, but I have had some success with that. You have to consider it in your design, so that sleeves stick out a bit around your arms to leave room for variations in muscularity settings for example. Low cut designs around the breasts can also be tricky. Because of this, there will still always be times when it is better to use clothing items that are textures on the avatar mesh. Skin tight things will be best done that way.

Love it! Nicely done. You seem to have an artistic eye. All the technical know how in the world won't help you if you don't have that!

If I change bone length in blender and then create bone heat from skeleton to rig my mesh, is there any way to keep that bone length when I take it into SL? I know the sliders will let me adjust arm length, leg length etc, but if I want to mess with the bones in more detail can it be done? Such as shorten femur, but stretch out shin, stretch out foot bone, things such as that to create an animal avatar?

I love the monkeys! These are so beautifully done!

Nice window Drongle! I have not played much with static meshes so I hope you don't mind a couple of simple questions. For the pane of glass and the wood textures, did you use two separate materials and then apply the textures in SL? Any problem with applying an alpha'd texture to a face created with a material? Can you set transparency in the build edit window on a face created with a material?

It is a common practice and much shared tip in SL to mess with the LOD settings. Go to debug and type in rendervolume and a number comes up that is 2.0. If you set that higher, to 4.0 or even 8.0, then you get lesser LOD switching. Many people do this to avoid LOD switching of sculpty clothing parts. I am not recommending this, and I am sure that it would slow down your FPS. I am just wondering if people will tend to mess with this setting in large numbers when mesh comes out to avoid LOD switching on buildings and such that were not made with your suggestion in mind Drongle. There are many different levels of skill and knowledge among content creators, and when mesh hits the main grid, there will be a large number of new people jump into the game to be sure. Not all of them will produce equally good mesh, especially at first.

Thank you! That is exactly what I needed!