Tari Landar

January 20, 2012

I just sat and read the whole thread.. some very interesting stories behind the names

Mine was pretty simple, Tari was part of tha name of my real life business, years ago. I used to have both employees and customers who thought my actual real name was Tari(it's not, lol). Most people don't pronounce Tari right either, which I find humorous. Landar sounded good with it. When I was picking a surname I came across my actual real last name, that was a tad weird, though it's a pretty common name.

My other avs created before this one all had some pretty random names with not much rhyme or reason to them.

I like this name, I always have, but lately I've been getting confused for someone else with the name Tari-it's starting to get rather annoying as she's apparently quite the troublemaker and into some....ummm...interesting, things

January 19, 2012

lol I ran into this just today.

Someone was looking at a lot on the sim I am on(I only know because this person told me so) and decided to wander, saw me on my plot and apparently decided to cam over. Doesn't bother me in the least. I wouldn't live and work somewhere with public access if I minded being seen, lol.

Person came over to chat too, and I was busy working on something, but engaged in the chat anyway. She liked my skin, and wanted help with her shape, lol. Nice enough gal. I actually run into more men exploring that sim than I do women, when I'm actually on the ground that is, not too many come up to the sky where I usually am. Doesn't bother me in the least to see the crosshairs or even...gasp...them actually coming over to engage me in a conversation. The men are usually far more inquisitive than women are though. Men don't seem nearly as private, if you want to call it that, or shy, about being looked at, in sl.

I will never understand the super private type people who get all up in arms about being inspected, looked at, or even IM'd....who choose to go to places where this can and likely will happen. Stop going there, lol.

January 19, 2012

Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

Another trick, a very simple one, is building in larger scale. When finished, scale the entire thing down to the right size.

What often sounds simple...isn't usually for someone who lacks any depth perception whatsoever

I'm legally blind, and dealing with things being right in position perfectly, is not my strongest thing. In fact, sometimes I am downright terrible at it. This is where scaling down is a pain in the butt. Because sometimes when I scale things down, like a ring I was working on earlier for example, the prims aren't quite aligned the same way they were when it was big. Then I have to go in and move every single one, which is ok and I expect time consuming things,b ut I can save myself a few steps(few hundred in some cases, lol) if I never have to scale down and reposition a million times.

This is the method I've been using-the scaling, but my hubby has to constantly check my work. Which much as I love him, and love that he's willing, this doesn't always make me feel so good when I've been working for days or weeks just to realize I'm an idiot and it's not even aligned properly, lol. I know, it's my own personal issue, but, yeah, it happens. It frustrates me too, sometimes. He doesn't make me feel that way, I make me feel that way, but it's still annoying. Embarassing when I do miss something and a customer has to tell me-which has happened more than once(and it's why he now checks everything, lol). I don't mind making mistakes, I do mind making the same ones over and over and not realizing it.

That's why i liked being able to cam in super close, lol. I didn't get the whole "dangit I'm a moron" feeling, especially when *I* find the problem, and not someone else.

I know, longer explanation than needed and some think it's tupid, I don't mind.

Wish they'd leave well enough alone with some things though, lol.

January 19, 2012

I accept all friend requests. It's not as if having a long friends list is somehow going to ruin your sl experience, cause damage, cause slow loading, or...whatever, lol. I still don't understand why people are afraid of having a long friend list. Or rather I don't understand why some think it's a bad thing. So what if you somewhere down the road forget who someone is. There are people on y list I haven't spoken to in years. I may never hear from them again, who knows. A couple of them have passed away. I kinda like looking back on their profiles sometimes, for no other reason than it feels good to remember. Sometimes I go through my friends list and profile perv when I get bored. It's kind of fun, good way to get to know some people too. But that's just an odd quirk of mine, lol. I know some folks just don't want people in general on their list other than super close friends...whatever tickles your pickle, I guess, lol.

If people annoy me later down the road, I remove them, quite simple. Rarely happens, but, every once in a blue moon it does. Can't say it's ever harmed anyone, including me, lol.

If I have a reason for not wanting to add someone, I tell them. Why would you want to come up with some sort of excuse when the truth is all that really matters? For that matter who on earth would want to be known as someone who has to come up with excuses for things and can't be honest? That's a terrible character flaw if you ask me.

Honesty is the best policy, in my book.

January 18, 2012

I'm not having any issues here with them either.

Just having issues with orders going through and not getting payment for them. That one's starting to really get on my nerves.

January 17, 2012

ROFL that looks like a posed photo of some of the dolls(if you want to call them that) my kids have. They're generic dolls that go to a playset. Like bad claymation....in fact, it's plasticmation.

I have noticed that the labbies have a hard time figuring out what quality actually is, in photos. A lot of the pics they use for marketing and stuff look really bad.

January 17, 2012

It might simply be a case of not very many people having this issue too.

I've been making gift purchases lately, actually a lot of them, and not had this issue myself. Not saying it can't, or doesn't happen, I'm more than aware of lots of issues that don't affect me at all, but it may be happening to an even smaller percentage than you think.

I'll vote for tje JIRA anyway, because it needs to be looked at, regardless, and I don't know why it would only be happening to a few and more more people, either. Makes it hard to pinpoint, I'm sure.

January 17, 2012

Weird?

Yeah, that's fitting...

We came from a far off place where taking care of business was a necessary evil, if you didn't want to suffer. We read books, we told stories, we even took occupance in showers. We cooked, we cleaned, we bumped pixels in some of the oddest ways. We built rooms, we built houses...but even more important than that, we built friendships. We listened to music, we listened to musings, we played with chalkboards, and even pizza! We had weddings, we had pets, we even had babies.

Then one day, the powers that be, went on a power trip. They started stripping the very fiber of our world apart, bit by little bit...pixel, by little pixel. Until one day our world was no more. We spent our final hours, huddled in masses, across the globe. Thousands of us, some in our own homes, others in public lplaces. We rejoiced at the good times, laughed at the goofy times, cried about the sad times...until the moment when our world was literally torn apart for the last time.

Maintainence came, and went, and our world never returned. Ever sad.

But we were prepared, the lot of us, we went on a trek in the months before we lost our world, on a search for a new world. Many of us found it(though many of us were already there, as well). We trickled in group by group, then two by two, eventually one by one. In the years since the collapse we've lost a great many. Some to other virtual spaces, and worlds. Some to tha tragedies that are unavoidable in our real lives. Who knows where they've all gone, all we know is...they're gone. Or are they?....

If you know of them..have seen then, or even ARE them....come find us. We want to rebuild the friendships, the communities, the homes. Perhaps not in the physical sense, but in some sense nonetheless. If you are, or were, a part of that world, you'll know what I mean. There are groups(a few I believe) in-world here for likeminded folks but they are all but silent. I know there are many who would like to reconnect. We'll form a new group, if need be, and we'll welcome any and all! Even if it's just to stop by and say hihowareya. We'd love to find you again(and when I say we, I don't just mean the voices in my head). We want to think back on the good times, enjoy what we once had, even if it's only a moment, once in a blue moon.

You can't deny the fun we had, once upon a time :)

January 17, 2012

Everyone else already addressed everything, but I want to dispell something, at least slightly.

You do NOT need a super computer to run sl, or see things. I am currently sitting at what's commonly referred to as a "work station". It's NOT intended as a gaming system, whatsoever. I use it for many purposes it's not commonly used for. This one is actually one that belongs to my kids-they use it for lessons, games and their spanish course-which is a vocal course(and I'm on it because I was grading work and writing lessons, and didn't feel like switching systems lol). It doesn't have a graphics card or even the ability to add one, it has integrated graphics, and relatively low end ones at that. This system is really basic, no bells, no whistles, definitely nothing fancy. I CAN run sl just fine on high, if I so choose. I can turn on ultra, but I'll lag out on it. I only get lag on high when I run into a lot of avs, or a poorly designed/set up sim. Most times I run on medium-ish area and I custom set everything to what I want it at (so some things are lower, others are higher, etc..). I rarely have lag or rez issues, unless there is some outside force(ie, too many avs, poor designs, script lag, things like this) that I wouldn't be able to control regardless of my graphics. But those are issues *anyone could have, from time to time.

It's more a matter of figuring out which settings will work best for you, and still offer you what you need. I don't need ultra, or even most of the high settings, that's why I don't use them. Doesn't make sense to make my system do more than I need it to, lol. There's an awful lot of misconception out there about what is and is not required. Even the lab doesn't seem to be able to decide. I can run sl just fine even on settings that *they say aren't compatible with sl. In fact even on my other system the lab says my graphics card isn't compatible, but it always has been.

Sometimes you need to try a different viewer, if you're having a lot of issues. I tend to prefer TPV, like phoenix and firestorm(which I only use in the realms). I don't like the official viewers all too much. Neither does this system. But phoenix I rarely, if ever, have issues. (barring grid wide problems)

I would try something like that, and playing with the settings before deciding your system just can't handle it. It probably actually can, just needs some minor tweeking in your settings/preferences.

This system also runs WOW with no issues(even multiboxing), some other very graphic intense games my kids have as well. You'd be surprised what low end graphics can actually handle, especially when you know what to tweek and what to leave alone.

January 17, 2012

Very true, there would be people to abuse it. But people already do-especially with keywords.

Type in the search word "worm", and take a look at what you see, lol. Tons of keyword spam, and a whole lot of products that have absolutely nothing at all to do with it. I don't even bother reporting things as much as before. They've made it abundantly clear those reports don't even get looked at, at least not anymore. That search word happens to be one I was looking for not too long ago for a project. I gave up and decided I'll make my own instead of buying the sculpt maps from someone else and just making my own textures. Actually I've decided to do that with a lot of things. Mostly because when I go looking, I get a crap ton of unrelated stuff, no matter where I look.

January 17, 2012

I stand corrected, lol. Seems some of my further back neighbors moved their locations to ground level, rather than up in the air. Maybe it's crowded up there, lol.

I decided to take a wander around the sim after replying earlier, curiosity, and stuff. Least now I know why the lag increased recently, and why daily restarts are part of our life (used to be more like every few days or weekly).

January 17, 2012

Everyone else already gave you links, but I'll give you a few tips.

Exlpore-that's the very first thing you should do. Explore the grid. Randomly pick places(some choose destination guide, but me, personally, I just do random word searches and start tp-ing around places, great way to visit lesser known sims or places I've never been before). But not only should you explore the grid itself, but also explore all your viewer options. Take a look at your edit/build menu, and learn how to use it's features. Take a look at your preferences and familiarize yourself with all of your menus, buttons, etc..etc.. This is going to take time. Don't expect to know it all in a day, a week, a month. I've been here for years and still learn new things everyday.

Honestly I would avoid some of the "help" places, because they do tend to draw some of the worst folks, they won't help you any on your journey, trust me on that one. But there are some really cool sims to visit, places that can teach you how to build, how to use voice, how to use just about everything. Nothing will be a better learning tool than hands on experience though. Don't be afraid to mess things up, look like a noob or break something. We ALL do it. I still do it. Anyone that says otherwise is full of it This is how we all learn.

If you have some fav destinations in the real world, you can search sl to see if they exist here too. I'm pretty sure the Africa sim(s?) still exist, but I'm not inworld to check. That place is awesome(you can even ride zebras around to explore, or take a hot air balloon ride which gives a guided tour). There's the grand canyon, which is pretty cool too. I like going there every now and then just for kicks. Lots of places like that in sl. Botanical gardens(that's still around, I think, I hope) is really pretty. Hubby and I like visiting zoos and museums. Granted we act like five year olds and we touch everything, sit on things you probably shouldn't and goof off the entire time.. but, it's simply exploring (and we never actually cause harm, or invade the space/experience of others, we are respectful of other guests are around, lol). The tunnel of light was pretty awesome once I got my new(er) system and was able to really see it, but I'm pretty sure it's gone now, bummer. There are other amusement places too, if you like those. They do have actual functioning rides and stuff.

My favorite thing is to just wander though, when I'm not building or working. You just never know what, or who, you'll run into. You can try the destination guide for some popular hangouts, most of them seem to be clubs, some of which are moderate(general) and safe(or should be). But don't be surprised if you don't hit it off right away with everyone in the room. Sometimes it's hard to be the new guy.

Whatever you do, don't give up and walk away, even if you get frustrated. I promise you, it gets better. If ever you need a wandering partner, or even just someone to help you find what you're looking for, you can ALWAYS come to the forums here and ask. Odds are these fine ladies and gents can provide you with every bit of help you need, and then some.

January 17, 2012

I'm on commmercial land. If you look near me, you won't see much of anything. I'm actually grateful for that. There was a camping/ad thing just behind and one parcel over from me. I'm guessing they were asked to leave though(and it's likely the giant bilboard of naked noob dudes with freeni probably contributed to that request, I could be wrong, none of my neighbors talk, lol).

There's other people on the sim, but most are up in the air. There's a club and at least two stores from my last check. I don't wander the sim much to be honest. I'm kinda non-nosey, and when inworld lately, I'm usually building. That's where my store is too, 300m or so up in the air and about 100m above that is my build platform which at the moment has playground stuff on it. But my house, if you want to call it that (it's a box-sorta, you can see out, but not in without camming, and it has our, eh hem, rug, and an intan in it, lol) is on the ground. I've also got a building thingymabob on the ground('nother box I build on when making micros). I'm not sure if anyone on the sim has anything on the ground at the moment though. It's a flat sandy(with bits of grass here and there) sim.

January 17, 2012

I'm not going to quote, but I'll address somethings, so I don't make this another long winded rant of mine.

I wasn't mixing you up with other people. I just tend to address not only multiple people, but multiple responses in one answer. At least, I was. That's probably why you thought I was addressing you, and only you, with some of my comments. I wasn't only addressing you, or only addressing certain things. This is my own fault and something I'll work on in the future, to avoid further confusion.

Of course you don't recognize my av name from previous forums. For one, I wasn't nearly as active in them as I am these ones.(was still active, just likely not the same places you were, and I was far more active in the xstreet forums) and secondly, this isn't my first av. This just happens to be my favorite av and the one I chose to stay with after I created it.(now I only have one alt that actually gets used and I don't think I've actually logged her in at all in about a year, could be wrong on that, she was mostly used for building, pics, stuff like that). But not being "seen" in the forums, doesn't in any way suggest I never read them. In fact I read a crap ton of what's on the forums, and yet when you look at my post count, it would suggest I'm not all that active. I just choose not to respond to probably 95% of what I read. I soak up information like a small child though, it fascinates me.

I appreciate you better explaining your stance. Others may not care when folks get rude, but, it's a personal peeve of mine, to be honest. I don't find it necessary in, well, *any conversation. You may get frustrated with me(eh, I can be annoying, lol, we all can at times), but that's no reason to be rude. When I get annoyed, I stop reading/responding and walk away, or whatever. I don't think people are so grand at explaining themselves when they get rude-and that's just going to make conversations crap(imo of course) and make it hard for me to even understand where you're coming from, or why. If I truly didn't care what others thought, and didn't want to hear what they have to say, I honestly wouldn't ask. I may be an oddball in my actions and words, but I am still a human, and a grown adult. I somewhat expect those I meet here on the forums to be grown adults too, and act in the same manner I treat them. I respect others' opinions, and their rights to have them, whether I agree or not, no matter what.

January 16, 2012

Luna Bliss wrote:

Tari...I think it's pretty clear what your position is on all this and why you take that position. Repeatedly you have mentioned how your skills are lacking, and at one point said you may embrace freebies because you want to 'stick it to the big guy". I have run into this before - people who champion freebies because they're unable to make money.

And you are poloarizing this discussion though you have denied it - can you admit that possibly even one sale might be lost because someone sees item A for free when the same item B costs 600 $L? People that can't admit the other side has at least SOME merit are polarizing and will not cope with anyones opinion but their own. That's why your characterization of Rene is so comical - you are projecting...you are the one doing what you claim he is doing.

At one point in this long thread, one of your posts was deleted where you decided you would not buy items by merchants who believed freebies were not ok. Do you see how fanatical this is? Please take a look at what is driving your posts here.

I'm sorry you are sick, and I hesitated confronting you because of this. But I am just as sick myself right now, perhaps sicker, and I need the money I earn here to help pay my bills. I feel this position you are taking is one of the factors contributing to the decline of SL - making it nearly impossible for anyone to earn money here. As I've said before, those entering SL have no market when most everything is free - they get frustrated and leave. I know many of them, and I also know more established creators who already left because they can't sell anything here anymore. Yes I agree there are many causes - an overabundance of freebies is one of them.

lol, I never said I embrace freebies to stick it to the big guy, someone else said that.

I embrace freebies because I support any and all merchants and their right to price as they see fit. Just as much as I support others who want to charge what I personally may feel is a huge amount, because they feel their time/work/whatever is worth that. I tend to stick with the little guys because that's where I fit in best, and feel most comfortable. They aren't nearly as judgmental of me, my work, and my opinions as someone who might believe they are the best in their field(that's just been my experience). But that doesn't stop me from trying to understand another person's standpoint. I always try to remain open minded. It's because of the forums I've developed some of the opinions I have, that were once very different.

I never said no sales at all would be lost, because of a freebie. Actually, quite a few pages back, I said exactly that. I said that *some sales would be lost. I said that *because of that fact, and *because that happens to everyone (including myself), those are the moments when we need to look at what we're doing, possibly even change what we're doing, to compensate for it. I've nevre said freebies, in general, don't have any impact on sellers. I have simply said there is a lot more people can do to combat this. Because freebies are simply part of SL, and they have *always* been part of sl. There is nothing we can do to change that fact, but we CAN change their impact on us-at least somewhat. They are in-world as much as they are on marketplace-actually moreso inworld, really. That's my stance. So far most people haven't complained about in-world freebies, in fact this entire thread was based on a complaint about *marketplace* freebies. I honestly don't understand why some people are angry about MP ones, but not angry about in-world ones. When I asked, I got a condescending and rude reply about it. Which doesn't in any way help me understand. I wouldn't have asked questions if I weren't sincere. I don't ask people to give me their reasons or explain things, if I don't really want to know. Some people might, but I'm not one of them. If I truly thought there were no merit to the other side of the fence, I wouldn't even engage in conversation. That's just not a fun thing for me, lol. I engage because I want to understand where another person's opinion comes from. I'm a curious person, I like knowing where others are coming from, even when I don't agree. Makes it easier to converse with people. But maybe I''m weird and that's not normal, that's entirely possible.

I never said I wouldn't buy things from merchants who don't support freebies. A lot of posts were deleted, certainly not by me, I wouldn't say something and then later delete it. That's not my style, never has been, never will be. If I later regret something I say, I'm woman enough to admit it I do have certain things I won't support, certain merchants and such, but none of that has anything at all to do with freebies.

I think you may be confusing my words with those of others on a few points. Because I'm not fanatical about anything. I personally support all merchants, whether I agree with their opinions or not. I do strongly believe people could do far more to help themselves. Heck *I* could do far more to help my own self(which I've stated multiple times in this thread).But I support all merchants and their right to do as they please(within the TOS). That may be why I'm coming across as fanatical. I support other merchants' rights to be able to sell at whatever price point they deem fair, be it 0 or 100k. I like that in sl, we have this ability. I don't like seeing other merchants trying to suggest we should limit others, simply because they say so, though. That's something I do take issue with. I'm not trying to tell others they shouldn't be able to charge $100L, or $100,000L even, for something, so I don't personally like being told I shouldn't be able to give something away, or charge a small amount, if I so choose. That hardly seems fair.

I don't personally feel that freebies alone(be it inworld or on marketplace) are having the effect some others believe. That's just my opinion. I haven't seen any compelling evidence to the contrary, despite asking for it. I've never said (nor will I) that freebies have *no* effect on other merchants. They do. They could have an even worse effect too, on even more merchants. But I personally feel that merchants need to take more responsibility when things aren't going right. Not always try to lay blame on other merchants, or other people. Because often times, there IS more we can do to help ourselves. It's hard, definitely not always the easiest thing to do, but it's not impossible. Thousands of merchants are managing every single day. I won't negate that fact simply because a few people want me to believe freebies alone are killing the marketplace(which is what this thread was based on).

Some of the things I create, and actually sell, are things commonly given away in the communities I am part of. I KNOW my customers can easily get what I offer either at a much cheaper price, or in most cases free. That doesn't mean those other merchants are somehow my enemy, and I should be trying to stop them from doing what they are. When it happens to me(because it does, a LOT) I need to amp up my game. I need to get back in my zone and figure out why folks are going for B, rather than my A. Give them a reason to choose my A-an item they will pay for, and not B-an item they can get for free. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But at least in the end I can say I gave it my best, and I didn't go looking in another's backyard for the reason(s) why I failed(not that it's a complete failure, but, I did fail to sell my item, so in that right, it's a small failure). I get told all the time not to sell these things because "so and so" gives it away for free. Doesn't stop me from trying. Doesn't make me angry. Doesn't make me go looking for blame. If anything, it drives me to do better. Again, probably not an approach most take, but it's what I do.

Maybe that better explains my stance on things and why I feel the way I do.

January 16, 2012

Rene Erlanger wrote:

Tari Landar wrote:

Some might, but so do the ones in-world, in fact if we want to go by numbers, the ones in-world *should be more damaging(if you believe they are at all), because there are Y

I wasn't confusing you with any other poster though. I'm looking at the thread title, all the previous replies, and trying to figure out how they go hand in hand. They just don't, imo.

You are confusing me with other posters.....as i didn't ask for Freebies to be removed from Marketplace....as i'm not that passionate about the product (MP) at the end of the day. The only thing that concerns me is the survival of the In-World economy.....if Marketplace dropped off the map tomorrow, I wouldn't be shedding any tears with or without it's Freebie listings.

Having said that Gavin's proposals seems feasible without killing off your beloved Freebies.

I've already explained the difference between Freebies on Marketplace and In-world....but you chose to ignore my previous reply out convenience...so that you carry on chiming the same nonsense about In-World Freebies like a broken record!

I'm not ignoring anything, well I wasn't. But you seem to lack the ability to converse with people who do not agree with your viewpoint without being condescending and rude. It's not really much of a conversation in that case.

I find it refreshing that others, despite the fatc that we don't see eye to eye, can still converse like grown adults. That's the sort of conversation I'm more interested in(and why i even remained in the thread to begin with). I am, well was, truly trying to understand others' opinions(that's why I ask questions) but I can't do that if all you want to do is be rude. Others can manage, you don't seem to be able to. In my book, that negates most of what you have to say. It's also why I doubt your actual experience. You can claim anything you want until the cows come home. Until you can explain your viewpoint without being rude, it won't mean much of anything to people.

January 16, 2012

Dangit, lol.

Well ty for that explanation. I don't always follow all the technical jargon with some things, I just know what works and what doesn't, lol. I didn't think the cam controls had anything to do with it, I just know what settings I've always used and never had an issue til recently-which is why I thought maybe something moved, and I didn't notice(wouldn't be the first time, lol).

Oh well, at least the method I use now works. Not my preferable method, but it still functions. Thankfully my tester doesn't mind checking my work, too much

At least I'm getting better at my skills with micros, that's a plus

January 16, 2012

Rene Erlanger wrote:

Tari Landar wrote:

Rene Erlanger wrote:

Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

You do that, and you take JOY away from a LOT of people.

Those people are my customers and friends, and me.

They are also yours.

You just missed analyzing that particular aspect of your business. And if you miss that part, then yes, you will have some problems competing.

That's total crapola of an argument.

IMVU's Catalog shopping site (which Marketplace was modelled on) has 6 million products listed none of which are Freebies. IMVU Avatars continually willing to purchase products from that site without any demand for products to be free. It is also the only place where you can purchase IMVU products. I would also add that IMVU membership are younger than Second Life and likely to have less RL disposable income than the adults of Second Life.

SLEX back in the day wasn't swarming with Freebies like it is with MP....there wasn't an outcry from Consumers that products should be free, the same with SL Boutique shopping site. Admittedly we still had camping back in those days, so many non-particpants of the SL economy were still able to buy SL products......but there wasn't this expectation or justication to have Freebies like there is today.

It's almost expected by the new breed of Consumers and Merchants alike. Anyone would think the World is collapsing, it's just that conditions are tougher....and more people are unemployed than say 3-4 years ago.....but that still leaves the remaining 80-90% of the adult population still in employment in most Western countries. This isn't the Great Depression....where the local currency was losing value daily due to inflation.

If you want everything free in Second Life and no currency or abilities for cashing out....then there are some Open SIm grids that fit that bill.There you can create till your heart's content!

LL should opt for one business model or another....becuase what we have now is not going to work in the long run, it will only get worst (or better for some!) to the point that nearly all products will end being sold for single digit amounts or become Free.....especially without any growth to Second Life concurrency.

I don't think you were actually involved with SLEX the way you are claiming now. It was chock full of freebies, the big difference was there were categories for them. Xstreet was full of them. In-world, was/is full of them. For every merchant that goes out, another takes his or her place... regardless of what price points they choose to sell at, including freebies. There are far more inworld freebies than there ever were too, and that number grows all the time. But I don't see you, or anyone, suggesting freebies in-world should be limited, or even eliminated. What's so different about MP? Is it because it's one concentrated area? Or because it's one area that some merchants flourish in, while their in-world presence(f they have one) doesn't do so hot? What's really behind the whole "get rid of freebies on the MP" thought process? I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly asking. What really is it about MP that makes it a place where merchants should get to decide for others how to do business, but yet those same merchants don't feel the same about in-world commerce. In-world is a much larger audience, and while MP gets shoved into people's faces it has it's own flaws. Many people could be far more successful in-world than they are on MP(or potentially are on MP), because the audience IS bigger.

We can see that from all of the threads about how people don't like MP, or use it as a search tool, some even want it done away with entirely. In-world is a much, much larger and in some cases very untapped resource for merchants. I don't know why people aren't applying this logic(or lack of in some cases) to inworld commerce that they want thrust upon MP merchants.

now who is presuming?

I was a merchant listed on SLEX...and a regular in SLEX forums. I didn't see any of these discussions regarding Freebies on their forums!

The only outcry was when Ahnse Chung threatened to employ a 100 or so content creators for a RW company.....and mass produce SL items and sell them all for 10 Lindens....regardless of whether it was a complete house or a Palm Tree. That is what she threatened to do......naturally there was a backlash from SL content community. Did you not view the products created by "10 Linden"

Freebies weren't an issue.....copybotted items being sold were more of an issue.

----------------------------

You are also mixing me up with other posters on here....I'm not demanding anything about Freebies on Marketplace nor In-World, i'm just making general observations about the SL Economy as a whole and where this is all heading. How can you undo 4 years of freebies littering? It's Impossible!

If push came to shove ....and i was overly concerned about Marketplace and it's Freebie issues, then i would be in agreement with Gavin & Luna's suggestions and thought processes. I've never liked Freebies full stop...from when they first surfaced in abundance as BIAB resellers (Business-in-a-Box) during 2007...much of which were loaded with stolen copybotted content. I banned them from my Malls....only allowing original creators to rent vendor spaces.

I didn't really want to quote all of that, but thought it was important.

*I* never said there was an issue on slex, or any other site, or even inworld for that matter. That was my entire point. It wasn't, and isn't an actual issue. What you've said here, actually proves my point, quite well. The existance of freebies inworld has grown substantially, and yes even on MP there are more now, but you also have to take into consideration that there are more merchants as well-those numbers have grown as well, making the percentages themselves(percentage of merchants vs free/low cost items that is) remain near the same as well. So it stands to reason the sheer numbers would change, including the numbers of free and low-cost items. The amount of freebies, back in the days of slex, that existed on slex are, in my honest opinion, equal to what they are now-when we take into consideration the number of merchants as well. Less merchants, less items-including freebies. It wasn't an issue back with slex, it wasn't an issue with xstreet, and it's still not an issue with mp. When you consider just the size of slex,xstreet,MP, whatever... to the amount of freebies, they are still on par with what they once were. Now if we had the same number of merchants as we did back in those days, and that number never grew, but the free or low cost number did....then we'd likely understand where the "problem" is coming from. But that's not the case. That's not what happened, is happening, and will happen.

Slex was the first place I actually found free items, once I decided to stay here permanently that is, lol.(I've had multiple avs before the 6/08 rez date of this av, I just didn't enjoy sl regularly and was quite content being a noob, with noob everything, back then, lol). That's actually what a LOT of people used slex for, especially new people. The same way that folks use MP for it now. Sure there were inworld ones too(and a lot of the same ones, I even visted a sim that was "old" the first time I saw it with outdated things, that still sells those same things just this morning). Most people I know who made larger purchases, or even ones with a cost, didn't use slex to do so. The same way a lot of people don't use MP to make those same purchases these days. MP is actually a perfect place to showcase free and low cost items-for all the reasons already stated in this thread. People used it as a tool way back when, before it was MP, and they're still doing that today. I happen to believe it's a good thing, you don't, and I don't believe we'll ever see eye to eye on it. I just honestly do not see an epidemic or something proving that all the freebies on MP are hurting other merchants. Some might, but so do the ones in-world, in fact if we want to go by numbers, the ones in-world *should be more damaging(if you believe they are at all), because there are far more of them.

I wasn't confusing you with any other poster though. I'm looking at the thread title, all the previous replies, and trying to figure out how they go hand in hand. They just don't, imo.

January 15, 2012

Rene Erlanger wrote:

Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

You do that, and you take JOY away from a LOT of people.

Those people are my customers and friends, and me.

They are also yours.

You just missed analyzing that particular aspect of your business. And if you miss that part, then yes, you will have some problems competing.

That's total crapola of an argument.

IMVU's Catalog shopping site (which Marketplace was modelled on) has 6 million products listed none of which are Freebies. IMVU Avatars continually willing to purchase products from that site without any demand for products to be free. It is also the only place where you can purchase IMVU products. I would also add that IMVU membership are younger than Second Life and likely to have less RL disposable income than the adults of Second Life.

SLEX back in the day wasn't swarming with Freebies like it is with MP....there wasn't an outcry from Consumers that products should be free, the same with SL Boutique shopping site. Admittedly we still had camping back in those days, so many non-particpants of the SL economy were still able to buy SL products......but there wasn't this expectation or justication to have Freebies like there is today.

It's almost expected by the new breed of Consumers and Merchants alike. Anyone would think the World is collapsing, it's just that conditions are tougher....and more people are unemployed than say 3-4 years ago.....but that still leaves the remaining 80-90% of the adult population still in employment in most Western countries. This isn't the Great Depression....where the local currency was losing value daily due to inflation.

If you want everything free in Second Life and no currency or abilities for cashing out....then there are some Open SIm grids that fit that bill.There you can create till your heart's content!

LL should opt for one business model or another....becuase what we have now is not going to work in the long run, it will only get worst (or better for some!) to the point that nearly all products will end being sold for single digit amounts or become Free.....especially without any growth to Second Life concurrency.

I don't think you were actually involved with SLEX the way you are claiming now. It was chock full of freebies, the big difference was there were categories for them. Xstreet was full of them. In-world, was/is full of them. For every merchant that goes out, another takes his or her place... regardless of what price points they choose to sell at, including freebies. There are far more inworld freebies than there ever were too, and that number grows all the time. But I don't see you, or anyone, suggesting freebies in-world should be limited, or even eliminated. What's so different about MP? Is it because it's one concentrated area? Or because it's one area that some merchants flourish in, while their in-world presence(f they have one) doesn't do so hot? What's really behind the whole "get rid of freebies on the MP" thought process? I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly asking. What really is it about MP that makes it a place where merchants should get to decide for others how to do business, but yet those same merchants don't feel the same about in-world commerce. In-world is a much larger audience, and while MP gets shoved into people's faces it has it's own flaws. Many people could be far more successful in-world than they are on MP(or potentially are on MP), because the audience IS bigger.

We can see that from all of the threads about how people don't like MP, or use it as a search tool, some even want it done away with entirely. In-world is a much, much larger and in some cases very untapped resource for merchants. I don't know why people aren't applying this logic(or lack of in some cases) to inworld commerce that they want thrust upon MP merchants.

January 15, 2012

I definitely wouldn't mind having to register, and eliminate the anonymity, for quite a few reasons actually. Even a yearly registration fee, isn't so bad.

I'm not keen on the minimum price point thing. BUT, if that's what they decided to do, I'd go with it, because I don't intend to stop selling on MP in the near future. I wouldn't enjoy it, and I would have some reservations about it, but, if it's what they set forth then I'd have no choice. I'm just not so sure that setting a minimum price point on MP would be nearly as effective as some think. Only because I know there are way more freebies in-world than there ever will be on MP. So the "problem" as it were, of merchants sellling at a lower price point and that harming other merchants(assuming this problem actually existed) would *still exist in-world, and on a much larger scale. If the complaint is that merchants who price, versus merchants who don't, simply can't compete based on that alone, the complain should exist also in-world. But it doesn't, or at least doesn't seem to from this discussion. That's why I don't believe the actual problem is as big as some think.

Yeah it's annoying when your business is the one hurting, for whatever reason, but I don't think looking to others is your first step(or should be) and it definitely isn't the solution. When my stuff doesn't sell, it's not because Joe Blow sells my $100L item for $1L. Nope, it's because I'm doing something wrong, or people aren't seeing my stuff, or I could be doing something better/different. At least this is how I improve my own self, my own stuff, my own store. If my stuff isn't moving, it's me that needs to change, not others. If others are pulling it off, and selling that same $100L item I was trying to sell, but couldn't, that same item joe is selling for $1l...and those folks aren't having the issues I am having... then it's me. If that makes any sense.(it makes sense in my head, not sure how it sounds in type, lol)

For example, let's say I build a house, it's a good house, a nice house, well textured, well set up, not overly high prim, etc.. a decent house. Not necessarily the best, but very nice. Let's say I price my house at $250L(for example). This is my first house I'm putting out there, I don't want to seem to eager.(this is one of my, many, approaches with new things). I can see from checking out the market(inworld and MP, because I do this a lot) that others are selling similar houses for much, much more than me. But, after looking I can see, houses are what they do, they likely have more skill, maybe even more supplies....whatever have you. Let's pretend my house sells wonderfully for a few months, then all of a sudden, my house isn't selling so great. What happned? Well let's look at the market. I can see that there are others selling similar houses now, that weren't when I put mine there, at both lower and higher price points than mine. Maybe they offer something I don't. Maybe their skills alone are better. Maybe their marketing is better, who knows. Let's now pretend I want to sell another house, one somewhat similar,b ut maybe different options, or more options. Maybe I want to price this house at $100L this time. Why? One reason could be that because I had a base to work from, it didn't take me as long. Maybe because I realize my price point might have been a bit too high, maybe I'm not ready to sell in that market just yet. Who knows why, could be anything, or any combination. I don't believe me selling that new house at $100L is somehow evidence that I don't value my work, actually far from it (I'd likely not sell it at all if I didn't value it, at least somewhat). Maybe I think people who are willing to pay more, ought to get more, and since I don't give that, I don't want to chharge more.

I'm using houses as a category here because it's often a very controversial market, imo. Some think some builders way overcharge, and some of those who do charge a lot more, think others way undervalue the hard work that goes into building houses. But what many don't realize, is that not everyone puts the same work, same effort and also the same financial cost into their builds. Something that takes me weeks may take someone else five minutes. Something that takes them months may take me a day. Who has put in more time there? Me, or them? Certainly not me, so why should I charge for my "time" when it was neglible at best?

That's how I price some of my stuff, at least the stuff I add in a charge for "time and effort" as it were. If it didn't take me all that long, I'm certainly not going to tack on a cost for that time, lol. I do respect that others will, of course, it's their choice. I'd just like a little respect in return that I don't want to, or need to, make those same choices.

That was a very long winded rant, sorry, but, I just don't get this whole "everyone needs to do what I do, because it works for me" mentality I am seeing. It's just not that simple. Too many pieces of the puzzle, too many potentially differet outcomes, too many, well, everything. No two creators, and no two products are really ever alike 100%. That's one of the beauties of WHY I started creating, and eventually selling those creations. I like diversity, even amongst similar products. That includes the price points. I like that some can charge $5k for a pair of shoes(regardless of what they put into them), and they'll have people buying them(lining up to even), while still others can charge $50L for similar and have the same success. I Like that, whether I am the $5kL or $50L seller, I.like.diversity. It exists in-world and ought to be able to exist on the MP too. If for no other reason, it gives merchants the chance to see what they could do different, to change their own path. I don't see that as a bad thing.

January 15, 2012

Rene Erlanger wrote:

Tari Landar wrote:

Does it really make you feel superior to continue to call names and make off the cuff remarks about other merchants simply because they choose a different path, or make different decisions?

I don't think it's dumb at all, nor did I when it was a choice I made. I find that opinion to be quite sad to be honest. If I intended to stoop down to that level, I could, but why bother? I know why I made the decision, and I don't regret it one bit. I also know why some other merchants make the decision. My guess is they likely don't regret it either. But then, I prefer not making rash judgment calls on other people like that. Clearly not a decision you've chose, so...whatever tickles your pickle.

I didn't call you dumb in person.....just the concept of ditching a profitable business is a dumb idea, especially if one is able bodied.

If i sent you $100 USD each and every month, for doing virtually nothing other than openig the envelope....would you reject it and post it back?

I'm not talking about downsizing here, that i agree with, if profits are diminishing......I'm talking about closing the entire SL business presence, whilst it's churning out profits. Sorry that makes very little sense to me.....then again they're are many wierd marketing concepts that are being justified on these Forums.

If opening that envelope had an effect on my rl health, or I was choosing to use my time elsewhere, I just might not ever open that envelope. And who are you to judge those actions?

Taking money from Sl, even from a profitable business, can't really be likened to opening an envelope, though. It's a different process(not necessarily difficult, just different). Having a business in sl that basically pays for itself, while perhaps not leaving a ton left to even take out of sl, is still considered successful, by many. My business, when I closed it, was paying for the sim we were on at the time, and then also feeding into my other activities in sl, as well as even feeding into the activities of others and my ability to support many others, including some rl charities that are very near and dear to me. But yet something in rl, was far more important than any of that. I find it rather insulting that you can't simply accept others don't make the same decisions you do, and because of that you feel you are superior(or are trying to come across that way anyway). I doubt very much that your opinion would remain the same, if you were faced with the same situations many merchants are, have been, or will be. It doesn't matter what their reasons for closing up the inworld shops and remaining on MP are(or even closing up completely, including MP). The fact of the matter is, they have their reasons. Any merchant, or any person, that feels entitled to deciding that is a "bad" decision, without actually knowing anything about it.. is, well, to put it into your words...dumb. No, actually I won't say that, because that's rude, they're not dumb, they're just not realizing that we're all not the same person. We all won't do the same things. What works for one, won't work for another. That's how *I* approach things. Much as I'd love for everyone else to have my opinion(ok, sometimes, but not always, lol), that's not a reality. We can't possibly know what's going on with every person, every business, every second of every day. You're suggesting you can, and can therefore judge another merchant based on your assumption. I'm saying that's probably not the best approach. Different strokes, I guess.

I'm not going to tell a merchant who simply doesn't want to have a presence inworld anymore-whatever their reason-they shouldn't do it. It's their baby, it's their business, it's their decision. I don't believe anyone else should either. That's my stance as far as that goes.

I've said it before and I still believe it to this day, the freebie category should have never been removed. It was SOOO valuable, and so helpful and it did a lot of good. I bet it would even solve some of the issues people believe exist. I still don't understand why LL did that, but then I don't understand a lot of what they choose to do.

I don't believing making crass and rude statements about other merchants is going to help the "warm and fuzzies" we should be feeling in a merchant community. Call me pollyanna if you wish, I don't mind, but I'd rather see fierce competition coupled with a warm and inviting merchant community. One where we may not all be equals(as far as talent, and even actions are concerned), but we are *treated* as such. Rose colored glasses, I knw, I get it. But I still think it would be ideal. I also think it would get rid of a lot of the elitist attitudes we've seen in this very thread too, which I can't help but believe would help foster a better world for all merchants.

But that's probably too positive of an outlook, I suppose. "If only I could..." is a phrase that often comes to mind when I see what the lab has done to what once was awesome, and could be again...If nothing else they've created(at least contributed to the creation of) some monsters among the merchant community, that's for sure.

January 15, 2012

Luna Bliss wrote:

Tari/Mickey - I don't think MOST people believe freebies are the ONLY cause for SL's decline, nor do they believe they should be totally removed from SL. Please stop polarizing this discussion - whenever issues are debated there is almost always truth to both sides.

It's important for each merchant to evaluate if freebies might be contributing to the decline however, and make changes in their freebie policy according to what they determine. My best guess is that some freebies can help some businesses but it has become unbalanced, there are way too many freebies available, and so it is now causing harm.

I'm concerned about the newer merchant starting out - I just don't think they have a chance to compete against all the freebies filling up SL now. Sure there may be some niche markets like Josh's hole business, but for the most part new merchants have no market anymore. And yes there are many hobbyists who aren't interested in selling and happy that another person might even want their creation, but I still think a big draw to SL is the satisfaction of creating and selling your content, and when many of these newer people can't do that they get frustrated and leave.

Many creators of more complex items in SL think the freebie market doesn't concern them at all (because what they create takes so long to make that few would spend that amount of time and offer it as a freebie) - however If we don't do something to facilitate markets for the newer merchants then those developing mesh and honing their skills in other ways will have few people to sell to as SL continues to decline.

I don't see most merchants being willing to cut down on how many freebies they offer - in fact many seem delighted to offer volumes of freebies and low-priced content as loss leaders in order to draw in customers to their expensive items, and in the process totally wiping out markets for the new merchant.

The only solution would be for LL to limit the amount of freebies each merchant could offer on the MP.

It's a good thing to impose limits/laws on people sometimes if it preserves the whole - this freebie problem seems to be one of those cases.

How am I polarizing the discussion. Look at the dang title, and the first couple of pages. That's exactly what was being discussed. I was trying to take the discussion back there as I think it's a valuable one, and I'd like to understand why those who DO feel this way, feel that way. What exactly is wrong with that?

I don't personally think that is the only solution. I think there are much better ones, like oh, I don't know, the crazy theory that as merchants we ought to be helping each other, not knocking each other down. Strange concept, perhaps, but I've seen stranger things be successful. We don't have to eliminate freebies or start dictating how many, where, when, etc... to other merchants. Merchants shouldn't have to validate their decisions. I don't think someone who makes top dollar, a rl living, etc.. should have to validate their decisions or business plan anymore than the hobbyist who is simply happy to share all of his or her creations. I just don't understand why it matters so much to some people that they get a choice in what another merchant should be able to do with his or her business.

I am *trying, or was anyway, to figure out why some people think they SHOULD get to dictate how others run their business. That's why I kept asking, and will continue to ask, exactly what that has to do with freebies on the marketplace. I ask, because I don't understand(how else would I find out? I'm not psychic, psycho maybe at times, but not psychic). I still haven't seen an explanation here. I keep seeing merchants asking why others believe they have a right to offer free content. But I don't see anyone answering the questions that ask why they believe they get a right to dictate(or should get a right). I don't see freebie merchants telling other merchants they SHOULD offer all content(or any) completely free. Ok, maybe one person came close to that, but to be honest I'm not real sure how serious of an answer that was, lol.

I can tell people why I offer some free, or low-cost content, til the cows come home. It's apparently not a good enough explanation. I don't feel my content is somehow hurting another merchant, and I've yet to see evidence to the contrary. I do however see that elitist merchants, and folks who feel they've every right in the world to tell me what I can and cannot do, or should and should not do, harming the merchant community. I take a big issue with that. Because they were once the little guy too. Would do us all well to remember that we all started somewhere, and I think some people lose sight of that, somewhere down their road. Not all, but enough that i find it bothersome.

Edited to add something:

I don't think setting limits to what a merchant can or cannot offer, as far as pricing structure goes, is a good thing. For one, it doesn't cut down on the freebies and low cost stuff in world, which simply in sheer numbers is greatly over the amount in MP. But aside from that, if we're not going to have similar rules for merchants who charge more, why should we have such limits for merchants who charge less, or even nothing. They contribute to this grid too. It doesn't matter if they contribute more, or less, they still contribute. I know a lot of merchants who make some really cool, great, usefull even, stuff that is either low cost, or free. I've also run across a lot of people who make real crappy stuff, harmful stuff even, that charge an arm and a leg. What are we proposing LL do, to stop those folks? Nothing, right? That's what I thought. Until people want to be even steven, things will go the way they always have. I don't see freebies on the marketplace, or even combined with inworld ones, as being the big bad wolf here. I do see plenty of issues with the merchant community, but pricing structure has absolutely nothing to do with any of the issues I see. Much as I'd like to tell that person charging thousands for something I don't *personally* believe is worth it...I don't believe I have that right. That wouldn't be fair. It's not my product, it's not my business. I may have opinions, but that's all they are, my opinions.

I don't get to dictate you, or anyone elses pricing structure, so what exactly gives another a right to dictate mine? Maybe I charge less because the things some think I should charge more for, don't actually take me nearly as long to make. Maybe I feel that's what they're worth. Maybe I simply feel that charging less is giving back to the community that has given me so much over the years. Maybe I'm just in a pissy mood and feel like sticking it to the big guy. Who knows why I make the decisions I make, lol, certainly not you(general) or any other merchant. I don't personally feel I should have to answer to another merchant, or group of them, either.

As I already said, I opened the thread because I wanted to understand the mindset, and the opinions. But the discussion kinda went haywire. So anything I set out to understand, isn't even here. I can't be expected to understand if no one wants to answer. Trying to pin the cause of all your woes as a merchant on the people below you(as far as pricing structure) is like a big brother blaming little bro when his car gets screwed up because he failed to maintain it...just because little bro has a car too. Nope, doesn't make a lick of sense. It's your car, you're responsible for it's upkeep.

January 15, 2012

Sometimes even great estate owners, make crappy decisions, or have staff that does. It's something you, unfortunately, can do very little about.

Some people just aren't cut out for the business, imo, and sometimes they don't even realize it at first.

I think both mainland and private estates *can have their own issues. Aside from owning your own full sim, direct from LL, you're subject to whatever rules someone else has put in place...and whatever actions they choose to carry out. In other words, you've always got some risk involved, no matter what, or some potentially negative aspects to deal with. KInda goes with the territory in sl, I think. Some never have to deal with it, which is awesome, some have had to deal with it lots, and you've got a lot that sit somewhere inbetween.

I understand exactly why LL says they won't get involved in resident to resident disputes-even if I don't always agree with their decisions. At least they tell us up front they won't, so we can't claim to be uninformed, if we simply choose not to be.(not saying you, or anyone did/does, just that I'm surprised they even tell us upfront about that aspect, lol)

January 15, 2012

Josh Susanto wrote:

>I've closed business in sl for other reasons besides tier not being covered. I know of plenty of businesses in sl, and merchants who have either downsized or had to close(some temporary, some permanent) but kept a presence on MP, for all sorts of reasons....... I'm still confused as to what this has to do with freebies being on marketplace and why they deserve to get the axe,------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, but how can you be sure it wasn't the freebies? I could have been that the sim was a bad astrological match for you. It could have been because you own a cat which brought bad luck upon you in RL. It could be because you did business with uncircumcised men without performing personal purification rituals before and after. It could have been the gay midget mafia finally finding a way to penetrate your tinfoil hat. OR, it could have been the freebies. Can you prove otherwise?

ROFLMAO, lovely response Josh.

But I actually could prove it. Assuming one wants to see the zipper like effect from surgery, or perhaps the internal photos from tumor removal and remaining scar tissues from previous surgeries, or the after photos once the effects of said surgery have worn off but other unexpected side effects took hold, or simply doing a scan of my brain and noting there is significant damage to lobes that was never there before, and shouldn't be there now..but is...that and assuming I actually wanted to share those things with people, lol.

Sigh. Yeah sometimes rl sucks. On at least one occasion, this is why I closed up a perfectly profitable store. Why did I not let it run, despite the profit rolling in? Because I wasn't even sure I'd be alive six months from then, much less in SL. Sometimes life gives you a perspective you just can't ignore. Profit wasn't as important as quality of life, to me, back then. May sound dumb, because, well, who doesn't need money? But that's the honest truth. I wouldn't change my decision back then anymore than I'd change it now if I faced it again. Which is a likely reality for me.

I know it's hard to grasp for some, but money isn't everything....even when you have very little.

January 15, 2012

Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

There used to be more tin foil hats there. Were those yours?

Market is short on Lime Green Hoodies too.

It's entirely possible. I think I angered someone and that's why they kept getting removed. Even when they were in the correct categories (because I'm not stupid, and once removed frmo one place for "incrrect placement", I'd put it somewhere else, not the same place it was, lol). Sigh, such is life. I do intend to put them back, eventually, lol. And to make sure this answer stays on topic...I'd make them very low priced, the way they always were, lol.

I'd make a lime green hoodie, but clothes are not my thing. In fact, I'm quite terrible at them. I can never get the shadows correct, lack of depth perception is a bigger hinderance than some realize, lol. (never stopped me from trying, you should see some of the monsterosities I've come up with over the years, haha). I've never been brave enough to actually sell them, but I once had a whole line of freebie clothes, figured the folks looking for them probably weren't looking for top notch

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