Peggy Paperdoll

Are you complaining, making an observation, or attempting to sell Singularity to others? Singularity is a TPV that is sanctioned by LL for use in SL. It's one of many different viewers anyone can choose to use. Some viewers are feature rich, requiring hefty systems to realize the features offered. Some viewers are stripped down on the features requiring less hefty systems to realize the basics SL has to offer to the users. Singularity is one of the TPV's that cater to the less than hefty systems. That means it will run acceptably on a lesser spec'd computer.......it sacrifices some of the features available in order to accomplish that. That's be beauty of TPV's........if one doesn't run on your computer then another will (unless you are trying to run SL on some really low end computer......nothing's going to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear). If Singularity works that well for you then, by all means, use Singularity and forget about why it runs 10+ FPS better than the others. By the way. The driver has very little to do with Singularity running better than others. Upgrading your driver will not make the other viewers run better for you if the old driver was doing fine for you before the upgrade. Drivers are not some magic bullet that fixes the graphics capabilities for a graphics card.......it merely adds features or fixes bugs to the older driver. The card's architecture and make up determines what the card will do.....no matter what driver is running it. If you have a driver corruption problem or the wrong driver then updating will fix that but it never will make the card run better than it's designed for. If Singularity ran better before you updated, I can almost guarantee it still runs better now that you updated.

I love a Friday thread....even on a Tuesday.

If you are talking about monetarily, then both benefit pretty much equally in the arrangement. Linden Lab benefits by users who choose to use the Firestorm viewer (or any other viewer) get a viewer that they are comfortable with and has features or the look that the user likes or enjoys..........that tends to retain the user. For Firestorm the users need a viewer in order to enter Second Life and Linden Lab provides that virtual world.........that give the Firestorm people a market. Without an market any business ceases to exist. It's easy to see how LL benefits....more users, more moeny. It's a little more difficult to see how Firestorm benefits (in my eyes anyway). The Firestorm folks are part of an open source genre of sottware programming. It's free for anyone to use. In many ways the people who write the code for the Firestorm viewer(s) do so out of a "labor of love".......these people love writing code. How they make money (which I believe is very little) is through donations from the users. I'm not sure any open source effort for software would continue to exist without user donations. So my advice if you feel guilt at all, your feelings of guilt are misplaced if you are thinking LL.........donate to the open source folks (they will certainly appreciate it, I'm sure).

Actually, it's program size (or folder size). You're right file size is not exactly what I should have used. But, no matter what you call it the total bits and bytes that make it work should always be the bare minimum necessary.......in theory, that is. In reality there is always going to be "bloat". But good software always has less bloat than bad software. Anything the code does that puts more processing than necessary in the mix is slower and more prone to issues than code without that extra processing requirement. The SL code grew up over the years......it has never been re-written. There are bugs that rear their ugly heads today that were around back in 2005 that I know of..........bugs that have been "fixed" several times over. That should not happen but it does so it's quite obvious to me that the code is very inefficient and extremely bloated. Keep adding features and not cleaning up the existing code in the process and everything will simply stop working........then, someone will be forced to re-write the code (or just let it die and go into the history books).

"... ...LL wouldn't have the technical skills...." ------------------------------------ I don't think I can agree with that. I'm sure the LL techs can accomplish what your "dream" is. But, as you mentioned, there will be many who wouldn't care for that particular feature. So a cost/effort determination has to be made......"is it worth it?". Then the bigger problem. When LL wrote the server code back in 2001 Marketplace (or any online, outside the SL virtual world store) was even thought about. There would likely have to some massive server code re-write to get something that sounds so simple done to a point where it would work dependably. I seriously doubt that such an undertaking would be anywhere near cost effictive.......I'm thinking almost a complete server software re-write (and that ain't going to happen). The techical problem is minor (maybe even simple) but the untended consequences are potentially massive......maybe even impossible to overcome.

"... ...File size isn't." --------------------------------- Until it takes 2 times 3 times, half a dozen times for the program to load. Or for for the program to dump the cached files so it can start fresh. File size does effect how a program runs. No it's not a major concern if the program is well written where there is little or no time spent moving from one portion of a HDD to another to get all the data in memory so it can be processed........but for software like the SL viewers that's not the case. Something simple when it's scattered all over the program files can be very complicated.......and take many times more than necessary for the task to be accomplished. Why do you suppose so many people have problems with SL? It's not that so much what the viewer is doing, but how it's forced to do it........that happens when programs are added to without re-writing the code that is already written in a more efficient way. Get a large program that is not efficient and the problem magnifies. Bloated software, no matter how much disk space you may have, is never good software. The viewers are becoming quite bloated as it is now. Keep adding to it and it's going to get worse.......not better. Scatter 107 MB across a GB of storage and the program starts having problems (that's an exxaggeration to emphasize a point......it happens when your HDD becomes fuller. Even after defragging).

I use V-3 by choice. I have a pretty powerful computer by most standards, I have plenty of memory (16 gigs). I have a terrabyte of storage. I can run any viewer out there will very little, if any, trouble. I'm not talking about my machine or your machine........I'm merely saying that, for the everyday, average computer the viewers are getting close to the point of being overly bloated. My points are valid unless you are only talking about my computer or your computer.....what about the average user with little or no knowledge about what is happening when they run SL (or any program, for that matter). Efficient, light weight code is king........it was king back in 1993 and remains king in 2013 (it will still be king in 2023). But I'm not arguing anymore......this is a de-rail because I mentioned that one should be careful about what they wish for. I'm not here to demonstrate my knowledge about computers and/or code. I have a fair amount computer knowledge and almost no coding knowledge........only that bloated code and inefficient code do not work well (that is common knowledge, by the way).

Who's premium? Heck I don't know. Not for sure anyway. But, it's just not important to me so the question never enters my mind. BTW. I'm premium. That little tidbit of information and about $5 USD will get you a cup or coffee at your local Starbucks.

You're missing the point. But, for you, I'm sure that's irrelevant. My point is that asking for more features does two things (well more than that but two major things). It introduces more for the users to use. It gives users features and things that only a portion of the users will ever use (for various reasons).......most of the features and things given are not going to be used by anyone (some will use things other find useless and vise-versa). That causes confusion for some who don't know what the feature does anyway. Keeping it simple and allowing third parties to create features that those who want them is the best way to avoid that confusion (yeah, there will still be users who still don't know what it does but want it anyway........until it causes confusion or problems). And the second big thing it does is increase the file size for the program.......some huge files are necessary for feature rich and powerful programs (GIMP and Photoshop come to mind). But any SL viewer is nothing more than a specialized browser........that's all the viewers are. As an example I just checked file sizes for SL V-3 and Internet Explorer (two browsers). SL, as you said is 107 MB in size.........and more importantly (which you did not mention) is the size on disk. That size is 122 MB (on a 64 bit Windows 7 installation). Internet Explorer 9 consumes 5.70 MB (5.75 MB size on disk). The size on disk is important because that size is what is actually taken up on your hard drive to house the program.........your file structure of your operating system will determine exactly how much space is used on the drive. NTSF 64 bit is my file structure. My point is the SL viewer is huge for what it is (a browser). It's nearly 4 times the size of Internet Explorer and no one has ever accused Microsoft of coding efficient programs. Start adding features and wish lists to the viewers and you can quickly get way out of line.........it's not inconcievable that a viewer for SL can approach a gigabyte in size (not likely to happen but it could). With the viewer already as large as it is adding more to it will need to be done causiously............or that "not likely to happen" will become "likely to happen". The SL server code and viewer code has grown over the years. Much of that growth has been done by simply adding to the code........no going back and streamling before those additions. That has produced bugs (as we all know) but it also produced what I've been told by coders is "spaghetti code". Inefficient and prone to huge problems.........and I just said to be careful what you wish for when wanting more features. At some point in time the whole thing just quits working.

Though I was exaggerating a little, I am a little serious. More features mean more code (and potential bugs) and more code require larger file sizes. With all the features and additions that I constantly hear here in the forums I don't think a viewer reaching the gigabyte range out of the question at all.......and when that happens, how long before a couple gigs? That last viewer I installed that I noticed the file size was one of the earlier V-3 viewers........if I remember correctly it was well over 30 megabytes. When I first started SL I was amazed that the viewer was 20 megs in size. It just keeps getting larger and larger........when will it stop? I can't believe it takes that much space for what amounts to a browser. Some serious streamlining is going to have take place at some point in time.

More tools? Be careful what you ask for. It's bad enough right now with what people can fiddle around with that they soon find out is not helping, but hurting their SL experience. How many times have we all read threads starting out with "I was looking at some of the features in the debug menu (or advanced) and how I have these rays of semi transparent light coming from everywhere. I forgot what I clicked. Can someone help me?" Major and popular features.......yes. Features just because.......no, absolutely not!! There's one other thing too....the viewer size in megabytes is getting way up there. When it reaches a couple gigabytes would you still want to install it on your computer? I might, but I sure would take a good hard look at the benefits before doing so...........load time for the viewer would also increase and many people hate waiting for a program to launch. Keep it as simple as possible but with everything (or as much as you can) most people would use and enjoy. The ability to create content and use it in SL can take care of much of those "features" anyway.

You can recent as much as you want. But you're very wrong in your assertion that I hold Firestorm responsible for the Emerald disaster. What has happened to me is that, because of the Emerald thing, I lost trust. I lost trust in all TPV's....Imprudenc, Singularity, Pheonix, and, yes, Firestorm. Every single one of the third party viewers on or off the LL approved list. I don't hold you, or anyone specifically, responsible for the Emerald mess. But it happened and it disappointed me greatly.........I put my trust in the TPV developers. Developers that I do not know (and have no effective way of ever knowing) and I got taken in by a few bad apples. You're Tonya Souther.........and, from your post, I gather you are one of the devs on the Firstorm team. That's nice........but I don't know you and I have no way of verifying who your appear to be. I'm not about to put my trust in you just because you seem to be someone who, perhaps, is worthy of my trust. That's not your fault and I don't hold any ill feelings what so ever toward you...........but you're still not going to gain my trust by typing a somewhat indigant post telling me that I'm lumping you (or any TPV developer) into group of bad apples. I'm not. I'm simply not going to use your viewers (or any other TPV). It happened with Emerald and it can happen with another TPV (yeah, it can even happen with the LL viewers too) and I won't put myself in a position to exploited again by complete strangers. I saif it earlier that if something like that happened with the LL viewers then I'm gone........there would be no viewer available developed by a group I can trust so there is not place to go except away. And I'd do that in a hearbeat. I'm going to say it one more time. I am not dissing Firestorm (or any other TPV) and I'm certainly not rooting for your failure or unfortunate re-inactment of the Emerald meltdown. It's just that I don't know you and since another group of people I don't know exploited me (and many others) for some childish in-house spat ruined it for me (and, sorry to say, you too). It's not guilt by association. It's lost trust. I choose to not use any viewer that I don't trust the developers. I'm sorry you are resentful.....but don't blame me. Blame your ex-team mates.

I don't care if those major features are written by Oprah Winfrey. If any part of the code written for any LL viewer contains code that, in any way, violates my trust then I will hold LL responsible. It's their viewer, it's their product and if they allow any code in the viewer that cause me to loose trust in LL then it's bye-bye Peggy. I'm gone. It's that simple.

It has nothing to do with "guilt by association" for me. It has everything to do with me putting my trust in a development team (Emerald) and my enthusiastic support for everything Emerald........then they completely let me down with the security issues that were allowed to infiltrate the viewer code. Regardess of whether or not the entire team had anything to do with the problem, it's the team that allowed it to happen.......one person was blamed. But it's impossible for me to believe that a single dev on a team of dozens can do what was done without most others turning a blind eye. And my stance against TPV's stems from what happened in the Emerald team.......if it can happen to Emerald (who, at the time, I held in the highest regard) then it can happen to any development team (including Firestorm........particularly because many of the devs there were part of the Emerald team. There's history there whether I'm being fair or not). I don't have to use a TPV so I don't. I'll stick with the LL team who has over 10 years experience and no history. Again, I'm not dissing the Firestorm team. But I don't trust any TPV as much as I trust LL. Not since the Emerald fiasco. If LL ever pulls the stunt Emerald pulled then I will simply leave SL for good.........no viewer I can trust means no SL for me.

You're not alone Teagan.

It takes 2 to tango, as the saying goes. Those people are supposed to be adults. Those people are supposed to be smart enough to develop open source viewers. Those people are responsible for everything they develop.........they are a team. Pointing a finger at one person and saying "It was him!! Not me!" is not acting like an adult, it's not acting smart, and it's not being team oriented. It was some childish squabble that the Emerald team allowed to spill over to the users of their viewer.........they are are responsible. Not just one person on the team. I'm not dissing Firestorm. Use the viewer if you want to use the viewer. All I'm saying (and have ever said) about Emerald is that it turned me off on TPV's..........all TPV's (I'm not discriminating in the least). I simply will not use third party viewers ever again. It's my choice and I have my reasons to making that choice.

What it sounds like to me is someone who isn't in SL for fun. They are in SL to get others (who are in SL for fun) to make money for them.......without having to even put a thing back into the virtual world that makes it all possible. If every "merchant" only had a Marketplace shop and paid nothing but the 5% on each sale then all that SL would wind up being is a money machine for Linden Lab. Every year it gets closer and closer to that.......one day it will happen. Then your Marketplace shop closes down because one is left in SL.......they all are trying to make a killing in Marketplace from non-existant in-world residents. There's a point that will be reached when all those sales stop.......no one is in-world to use what it is that you are selling. Marketplace along with an in-world shop seems to be the best way to go. I mean Wal-Mart, Sears, Kohl's, Macy's, even Nieman Marcus and Saks have "brick and mortar" stores......that go hand in hand with their online stores. They a killing too.

Buy mainland. But anything over 512 sq. meters will entail land use fees. There ain't no way around it.

Emerald was also the most popular viewer in it's hayday and look what happened to that viewer. It's basically the same people.......think about it.

Oh...........on that other age. You might beat me there Old lady!!!!..............LOL

Call me dense.........I couldn't think past my initials. But the "old school" in me still says if it's not some universially understood abbreiviation one should always use the un-abbreviated word(s) before falling back on the abbreviation. Heck, I'm just old fashioned........even real life (RW?) news agencies do it.

October, 2005 was my first account.........the 20th, to be percise (but I just don't remember the time of day......probably after 6:00 pm since I went to Second Life dot com after seeing a 30 sec blurp on my local news channel at the end of a newscast). BTW..........a "Chopper" with loud pipes would be nice. Need the loud pipes so I can hear them.

Oh god.........ya'll are just infants compared to me!! I need one of those scooters I see advertised on TV.......those scooters that Medicare (or Medicade.....I don't know which apply here) pay 100%. You know "At no cost to you" pitches.

What does "RW" stand for? I hate when people use some obscure abbreviations as, what appears to be, nouns. I understand Internet speak is often quite different from real speak but when a question is asked, it's always best to be as clear as possiblel if you want an answer that actually refers to the question asked. RW means nothing to me except that it happens to be my real life initials............were you asking me, specifically, a question? If so then I really have no answer since $1.01 (one dollar, one cent) charge against your payment method is something I've never heard of.

I'm the exact opposite. I absolutely hate "shopping" at Marketplace (actually, I've never been to Marketplace but I did try SL Exchange years ago). I tend to follow my RL habits when it comes to shopping........I want to see the item in person, feel the item (though that's not possible in SL, but I can get a demo and try it immediately which is, in my opinion, the "feel" the item equivalant), and purchase it right there if I choose and know within seconds if there is a problem with the purchase. But, the main reason is really even simpler than that. I joined SL because it is a virtual world. Read that as a make believe world that sort of mimicks real life........to be honest every single second I'm in-world I'm "role playing" myself in a make believe world. I don't want to do what I sometimes do in real life...........search websites and web pages to find something I want, read all the sales pitches the maker creates to sell me the item, then read reviews (wondering whether those reviews are genuine) to take the chance and actually purchase the item (return policies and the hassle involved are a major deterant for me). I want my SL to be my make believe life that is as trouble free as possible. It's always an adventure when purchasing anything in SL (you never know what you get until you get it). But why add the extro adventure by putting, yet another, potential for issues by shopping for a virtual existance on a real life website? Keep it entirely virtual........that way my SL is not my RL just a little less.