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Akane Nacht

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    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted · Edited by Akane Nacht
    speling prblem :p

    13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    So standing by what you said related to Chinese Privilege not being a reality in your country means you believe there is no prejudice there, no valid grievance by the 25% of minorities (Indian, Malay, and others) who are not Chinese, and that this movement by those claiming there is any kind "Chinese Privilege" enjoyed by the 75% majority is pretty much crazy?

    I found a good article by Sangeetha Thanapal, the young Indian woman who first brought up the notion of Chinese Privilege in Singapore. In it she claims "We constantly think about and cater to Chinese people, as they have institutionalized power."
    https://www.boundary2.org/2015/03/chinese-privilege-gender-and-intersectionality-in-singapore-a-conversation-between-adeline-koh-and-sangeetha-thanapal/#twelfth

    Thanapal says:
    "I define Chinese privilege similarly as White privilege, again by analogy rather than wholesale transference of one distinct historical context to another. White privilege is invisible and normal to those who have it, which makes it hard to discuss because people rarely see how they are being privileged. It goes beyond advantages people enjoy because of their race. It is also the unearned power the system confers by virtue of your race alone. It is a set of institutional benefits, with greater access to power and resources and opportunity, that are closed off to those who do not have it. In the same vein, these advantages are bestowed upon Chinese Singaporeans, regardless of any other intersectional identity they carry. By virtue of being Chinese in Singapore, they start life on a higher place in the scale as compared to minorities. They are the beneficiaries of a system of racial superiority, which is why when I talk about the country I call it a Chinese Supremacist state."

    Another author claims Chinese Privilege is a more recent creation, and speaks of the PAP government, a center-right government run primarily by the Chinese. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Action_Party 

    Referring to Chinese Privilege in Singapore Saharudin says:
    "Its inception can be located from the late 1970s onwards, when the party sought to ‘re-Asianise’ Singapore. This agenda shift has been attributed to several issues: the PAP’s fear of ‘Westernisation’, its then ‘poor’ electoral performances, and Lee Kuan Yew’s newfound appreciation for Confucianism and the Mandarin language. Other factors include the political demise of left-wing Chinese-educated groups and the economic reforms of Deng Xiaoping’s China.

    This period of ‘Asianisation’ saw the PAP-government promote a self-fashioned form of ‘Chineseness’ via policies that, intentionally or not, favoured, privileged, and valorised Chinese-Singaporeans. According to distinguished scholars like Lily Zubaidah Rahim, Michael Barr, and Terence Chong, state-sanctioned ‘Chineseness’ emphasised paternalism, elitism, apoliticism, fluency in Mandarin, a deference to authority, and the Confucian Junzi ideal (one whose ‘humane’, ‘benevolent’, and ‘righteous’ conduct makes them exemplary).

    To cultivate such values, the PAP-government launched the Special Assistance Plan in 1979, turning Chinese-medium schools into well-funded, elite monocultural institutions. Yet, special aid did not extend to Malay- and Tamil-stream schools. Moreover, throughout the 1980s and 1990s, numerous Confucianist-oriented campaigns were championed nation-wide, like ‘Speak Mandarin’, ‘Confucian Ethics’, ‘Asian Values’, and ‘Shared Values’. This left little space for non-Chinese voices and narratives."

    https://www.newmandala.org/brief-history-chinese-privilege-singapore/

    Anyway, I'm not totally sure what to make of all this, in terms of comparisons between the US and Singapore. It certainly seems like minority people experience quite a lot of disadvantage in Singapore, but it has never reached the severe form as in the US where we fought a war over the right to enslave minorities and erected statues to commemorate our supposed victory over them. How it all plays out in today's terms though, could be very similar.

    There is a saying I heard once: Those who are not liberal in their youth have no heart, and those who are not conservative in their maturity have no brain.

    People are free to believe what they like in Singapore, but if they stir discord on race and religion, they will be explaining themselves to the police.

    I am a minority in Singapore, and in my 50s. And I think this person you cited is suffering mainly from youth and an excess of idleness. She can thank people like me and my family who made Singapore a more tolerant society so she is free to indulge in her ideas. Let's hope she recovers some sense as she grows older.

    ps. I googled this person. Apparently she was given a warning by police last year. Also she doesn't live in Singapore anymore. 😂

    • Like 1

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    4 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

    Peace itself is a concept of privilege. People who have a means of redress or already have the rights they want for themselves can afford to resort to peace and to demand of those they downpress.

    The downpressed know that what matters is not peace, but equal rights and justice.

     

    This speaks to many things - but chief in the minds of many these days is the question 'why do they riot?'

    And this is where that peace thing comes in...

    Because when you ignore every single peaceful means that a downpressed populations tries to use to bring an issue to your attention, then out of desperation they will act... and that action will take a desperate tone rather than a rational one. Thus you end up with even people who do not want or like riots... rioting... because they have nothing left to choose from...

     

    I can understand that.

    My personal opinion is: try peaceful resolutions first, and never take them off the table. Otherwise we lose sight of peace in the violence of the moment, and what happens next?

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    12 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    causing you to repeatedly side with conservative elements in my society who basically don't believe Blacks have anything to complain about and believe the bigoted Trump is the US savior.

    I don't label myself as any one ideology, in fact I pick apart any ideology that crosses my path, as I like to understand things before I support them.

    Your cause has left me with a distinctly mixed message, from reading the replies of various people on this thread, not just yourself, so I'll remain on the fence. 

    As for it's application where I live, I stand by everything I have said.

     

    12 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    I especially gave you the benefit of the doubt, not assuming you were a Trumpie bigot.

    You seem to have very strong views on your current President. If he bothers you, I believe there is an election coming up. 

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    25 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

    but I think you have been repeatedly doing the very thing you are accusing me of (taking the knowledge of one's own country and applying it inappropriately to another country).

    I've been sharing my perspective. If that feels inappropriate to you, well, not much I can do about it. But you have been posing questions to me about my country, so I answered them.

     

    29 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

    With all that has been presented here in this thread, do you agree we have a different sort of case here in America (a much more severe one, at the very least) and that our accusations regarding the advantaged position Whites have enjoyed in this country are justified?

    I've seen multiple perspectives. I leave it to Americans to decide amongst themselves what is or isn't justified, as you all have to live there, I don't. 

     

    28 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

    If the authorities in a country are not looking out for the common good though, should we respect these authorities?  

    Then you have a flawed system. How you deal with that depends on the tools at your disposal. In a democracy, an obvious tool is the vote.

    • Like 1
    • Thanks 1

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    However, I did read that becoming too Westernized is a concern by some in Singapore, so it seems likely skin-tone issues apart from the division of classes could come into play there ?

    Not sure what exactly you are referring to here. "Westernization" has good points and bad. The Western ideas most are skeptical about at the moment tend to be those that conflict with our largely conservative values, respect for authority and the common good of the community. 

    I've noticed some Western countries (*cough* America, UK) can sometimes view other non-Western countries through their own lens and think "They must be having the same social issues as us" and try to superimpose that image over what they see. Be cautious about that.  

    • Like 2

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    36 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

    The way people I know from Japan or Korea describe people from your part of Asia... is disappointing to me from people who tell me they aren't biased...

    It saddens me to hear that, esp Japan. There are still living survivors of the Occupation here. 

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

    But it takes a particularly nasty turn here because it gets aimed like a weapon at black folk.

    Thanks for that explanation. If that is the case in America I can understand better why some are upset at products that play into that.

    1 hour ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

    Colorism is a real thing. And I spent a half decade in Asia and among the many races in me is Chinese - so I know it exists over there too.

    A little more context - Outdoor labourers who spend hours under the sun often were, and to some extent still are, looked down on in South and South East Asia (ie "dirty jobs"), as opposed to the execs and professionals who remain indoors in comfy air-conditioning. We still have issues over people trying to import caste notions, which in the diaspora are frowned upon. I can't speak for the situation in contemporary China, but historically, similar thing - the farmer is likely to be swarthy, pampered nobleman likely to be pale. Could be same ethnicity - they may even share a clan name. If that's what you mean by colourism, then yes, it's real, however it is strongly linked to economic class. 

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    11 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    From what I understand about your country so far it seems your conflicts there relate more to ethnicity (learned behavior,culture) vs the racial issues (biological factors, skin tone) now taking center stage in America.

    Somewhat, though there are other just as pressing factors (economic and political). There has certainly been tensions between the resident diaspora and new arrivals from the motherlands, technically the same "race". Cultures diverge over time.

     

    11 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    This attitude -- that Whites are better -- is what fuels the disadvantages POC endure in this country.

    Do you question people of your acquaintance who hold this attitude? What is motivating them to think such a thing? I struggle to understand it.

    10 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    What is the root issue of the multi-billion dollar industry known as "skin lightening products", a global phenomenon, and a problem in Singapore too?  Having lighter skin is thought to be better than having darker skin, and having a lighter skin confers privileges all over the world -- better prospects for marriage, for employment, among other privileges.

    The abuse of colonialism caused this shame of darker skins -- caused POC to feel they could only have a decent life if they became like the Whites who dominated them and had all the power for so many years.

    Lol. Sorry, it is not a "problem". You do realise it is very hot year round and UV protection and lightening isn't to try to become a white person, but to protect skin and return to non-baked state? If you read the social media responses by Singaporeans to this latest craze for eliminating whitening products, we're having a good laugh. Some are asking if tooth whitening will be banned next. Yellow teeth to fight colonialism! 😁  

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    Anyway, I'm interested in this "Chinese privilege" you mentioned awhile back, where some were claiming the Chinese in Singapore are privileged and have been influenced by claims of 'white privilege' in the US, and how or why this felt silly to you. I see from a bit of research that Chinese make up 74% in Singapore, and I can see the remainder would also have darker skin, so am wondering how your situation differs from the US.

    From a cursory search I found a student research paper from the UK citing there are racial problems there. Is it fairly accurate?
    https://www.ukessays.com/essays/sociology/examining-prejudice-and-discrimination-in-singapore-sociology-essay.php

    That paper touches on a wide range of issues, across a number of countries, all of which (I keep saying this) are complex. If you are really interested in digging into Singapore history, I suggest starting here:  http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history. Then move on to oral history, from all ethnicities, and hear in their own words. Singapore also has a sizeable foreign population, many living here for decades or entire lifetimes.

    About the privilege thing: Singapore is a multicultural place, and the laws reflect this. These laws are strict about attacks aimed at any one race, or religion, and the laws are applied equally. It is not ok to attack the majority ethnicity either. 

    I think of it this way: if someone looks at another group and says "they have privilege" why not drill down to exactly why that is? Did they finish school? to what level? what did their parents work as? did they have a stable place to live? did any laws prevent them from working, studying or living in good conditions? Until you can define it, it's merely pointing fingers based on skin colour and assumptions. How is being reductive going to help anything? I know how the argument goes - 'But the poor Chinese person still is more privileged than the poor Indian person' - Rubbish I say. It just doesn't bear scrutiny when you look at real living breathing complicated humans, and not stereotypes.

    Now, I'll add - this is a small country. It is easier to drill down than in a huge, diverse place like the US. Maybe you need to take some shortcuts. But I still believe, unless you really investigate, listen to people and address the root issues, you won't effect lasting change.

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    12 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    Child Developmental Psychology has made great strides in understanding the stages children pass through as they grow into adulthood, and can pinpoint when development was not optimal and so future health is jeopardized.  Treatments have been developed to address damage and help a person, as a child or an adult, who was not able to develop good coping strategies (for example, the ability to handle stress mentioned earlier). And of course, I think it's best if a Native American provides treatment or therapy for an Indigenous person, and is helpful when a Black therapist likewise helps another POC, as there are so many specifics a White therapist might not fully comprehend. It's all too common that a White therapist would not understand  the ongoing abuse POC endure in America, and this must be addressed in the treatment of trauma.

    I don't have a background in psychology, I just read it for fun. Sounds like you are touching on attachment theory and its relation to minority identity. Problem with studies like that, they tend to use students as test subjects. It would be interesting to see a real world study, that investigates whether and to what extent these 2 are related.

    I work with a psychologist, and, while on occasion he has had people wanting to speak to him because he shared their ethnicity, it is very very rare. The majority of clients choose based on their rapport with him as an individual. Our clientele hail from countries all over the world.

     

    12 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    Anyway, I bet psychotherapy is not too big in China? In the past here it wasn't accepted, and people who needed it were stigmatized, but it's more accepted now. Efforts are still underway to fund mental health to the degree we fund physical health.

    I don't live in China, so I can't say for sure. I live in Singapore and yes there is still stigma attached to seeking help for mental health issues but it has improved over the last 20 years. 

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    The troubles and difficulty in functioning is just what happens when a person undergoes severe trauma.

    Do you mean inherited trauma? That one is rather tricky. eg. Can We Really Inherit Trauma?  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/10/health/mind-epigenetics-genes.html

    If it's personal trauma you meant, then yes that affects parenting, though exactly how will vary from person to person. It's really hard to generalise either the cause or the remedy for that.

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

    do you just repeat yourself: Child let it go. The ring is not yours to give to your daughter

    Yes. I would think it and say it.

    There is a book I am very fond of called Dream of the Red Chamber (Hong Lou Meng). It tells the story of the rise, glory days and decline of a family in 18thC China. It is in some respects autobiographical, as the author's family mansion and goods built up over lifetimes were confiscated by the state (emperor at the time). 

    It resonates with people who lost their family homes and goods during China's modern political transitions, and in one translation of this work the translator spoke to a man who took him on a walk past his former home in Beijing. He asked this man, do you resent it, that the state took your home? The man replies, it did make me very sad for many years, but now I just laugh.

    I would want to pass on this message to a younger generation: Enjoy the good in life, grieve a little when it goes, but then, just laugh. 

     

    ps. You may wonder why I said I would be aggrieved if someone took my stuff. This is because it would violate the common pact of the community I live in today, ethically and legally. Letting things go doesn't mean letting yourself be trampled on. I think a lot of people misunderstand that. It's more like tipping a boat back into balance. 

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

    Speaking about America and not your country, how separate are we from the past really? The wealth we have in America was built on the backs of those we stole land from (Natives), and those we enslaved (Blacks), decimating both of their cultures to varying degrees in the process. In other words, we grew as a wealthy nation because we abused them. And all this occurred not so long ago really.
    Now I'm not saying vast amounts of wealth should be taken from those living today who had nothing to do with the abuse -- I certainly don't want my cozy little cottage I live in to be yanked from me. But I would be willing to pay a few dollars more in taxes to help these cultures that, still today, suffer from what we did to them in the past.

    You mentioned helping those less fortunate in your community. How did they get that way? Barring major crises and deprivations in present circumstances, the deprivation is passed on through the generations via inadequate parenting. One generation is abused so severely (in America, say Native Americans), that their culture is decimated and they are not able to parent adequately, and so their children are not able to successfully parent the succeeding generations. And so here in the US we have rampant alcoholism on the reservations, and the wrecked, miserable, and wasted lives that accompany this disease.

    I'm sure no one would deny you donating to any cause you wish. I suspect people would only take issue with being forced to do so.

    As for how families fall into poverty, it's complicated. I wouldn't ascribe it to any one cause, but I would be cautious in calling it inadequate parenting. Poor people are not fools nor are they somehow morally damaged. Some of them just made unfortunate choices, or had unfortunate things happen to them through no fault of their own. I should say some of us, as I've had my days of living frugally too. My parents valued education, which is the best single tool for escaping poverty, imo. Teach a man to fish...

     

    getting woke and SL

    in General Discussion Forum

    Posted

    5 hours ago, Mollymews said:

    if the State were to take your property and not compensate you, then would you feel aggrieved ?

    Mine, yes. My great-great-great grandfather's? Nope. I see no point in dwelling on things long done by people I never knew.

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