Rene Erlanger

Pussycat Catnap wrote: The money trail in SL is very simple: Residents buy lindens, they go shopping for things to wear or use. Merchants use a portion of that money to rent spaces to show off the things residents can buy. Land owners use a portion of that money to pay the bills to support the places residents go to to use the things they bought. - That's pretty much it. Everything fits in there somewhere. MP slices a clean line through that, like a sword beheading someone; with equally brutal impact. It's a shame that no one smart enough at Linden Lab to realise the workings of the above flow-chart....as that is how it pretty much works. If LL are not alarmed, they should be, having loss 1200 Estate sims in the last year.......400 have gone since X-Mas!!

Pussycat Catnap wrote: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2012/01/second-life-loses-sims-and-revenue-2011.html Venues we all love to visit and enjoy have no built in source of revenue, so they generate it through 2 other possible avenues: residential rentals and shop rentals. Either on the same sim or a related sim. Marketplace makes shop rentals uneeded. Linden homes makes residential rentals less viable. And being a venue people visit also can make residential rentals less viable. As merchants move offworld, we're seeing entertainment, social, and arts venues close in record numbers. Even from someone like me who feels a lot of the closures are just shifting generations in the SL userbase - with many new places opening elsewhere... I can't overlook the loss of 879 sims. Merchants fail to realize that SL doesn't exist for them. SL exists to entertain us all in various ways. We buy from the merchants to have things to use, wear, or rez at the laces we go to to be entertained or entertain others. Merchants NEED these social venues to stay open, or their customer base will dry up. But too many are looking to short term interests and jumping ship. Tragedy of the commons problem. If you really need to go off to MP for your mainstore, consider still renting a signboard in some clubs or other spots that you know your kind of customer enjoys. ********** Try 1200 sims, if you add the last 2 weeks (9th Jan 2011 to 15th Jan 2012) of losses.

Ceka Cianci wrote: a shame another moves to MP only..=( It's a crazy situation....a 3D Virtual World gradually turning into a 2D Shopping website!!

Estate owner might have other plots of land on the sim available for rent.....and has them all under the same name or Group. It will pool all the prims from those parcels.....the important figure you need to check is "Primitive Parcels Support"

thanks for the link! :matte-motes-tongue:

Pussycat Catnap wrote: So gridsurvey is smoking something? http://gridsurvey.com/economy.php Concurrency there has been nearly constant since 2009 when it started tracking. You have that totally wrong, or you are looking at the wrong graphs and mis-interpretating the data. The most important graph for concurrency is "Average Logins during a 24-hr period".......it averages out all the peaks & throughs during the day cycle. SL has been undergoing a very slow...but steady decline over the last 24 months. Look at the 3rd graph which covers Jan 2010 to Jan 2012. In that particualr graph, the peak was around Feb-Mar 2010 at around 56k average.......now it's around 46/ 47 k. Wade was correct when he said it dropped around 10k...he might have been referring to "Peak Logins".....but it's also more or less the same for the more important "Average daily logins" data.....likewise with Phil's analysis on "troughs" which also shows a 10k decline.

Marcus Hancroft wrote: Sy Beck wrote: I find it a delicious irony that in an internet age where irl people shop more and more online that in SL, a prime example of living a life online, people are requesting that others travel to shops inworld rather than do the SL equivalent of shopping online via MP. P.S. I agree with them though. :smileywink: As I go around SL (I prefer shopping inworld), I find stores I used to shop at a lot have disappeared, malls close down and I miss them all. I might use the Marketplace to search for an item, but I go to the sellers inworld store to purchase (if they have an inworld store). I see it over and over. Inworld stores shutting down because more and more people only use the Marketplace (where the merchant incurs a fee) and the merchants can no longer afford the rental cost of their property. So, yes, I would prefer that customers shop at the inworld stores so that the inworld merchant business doesn't disappear completely. That would be a sad sad day when there are no more stores to go shop at inside Second Life. I remember shopping in a great store called Prim Goddess. It was a massive store with fantastic artwork & furniture! They even had an overhead tram system set up that one could get in and ride to the different departments. I used go there a LOT. Not anymore though. It is gone. Warehouse Plaza is gone, and so many others. At the bottom of it all, I don't want to see the inworld store business going away. If we encourage all people to just shop the Marketplace, that's exactly what will happen. Amen to the above....you could be my Twin! :matte-motes-wink-tongue:

Phil Deakins wrote: They'd certainly get a lot of flack from all landowners, and especially those who paid for one or more whole sims. But even more than that, they would kill the rental business at a stroke, which would mean most of the private islands being handed back, which in turn would mean a loss of most of LL's tier income. In other words, the SL sky really would fall. They cannot afford to p!ss off the large Estate Barons......if the 2 biggest Estates were to close shop tomorrow, 15 -16% of all Estate sims would be handed back to LL. Whatever profitability LL might have had....would be more or less wiped out and might even put the Company into the "Red" 1200 Estate sims have gone in 1 year (9 jan 2011 - 15th Jan 2012)....i made a conservative estimate of $3 million USD from their bottom line this year. We don't have figures fr the Mainland abandonment in that year, other than 43% of Mainland is under LL control. Hence Rodvik's announcement to diversify into non-related Second Life products.....as that current business model is quite fragile when relying mainly on Land/ Sim Tier income.

Josh Susanto wrote: I haven't yet heard from anyone who thinks a total camping ban was the right idea. I think I understand most of the arguments against camping, but I still don't see that nothing more could have been done to assure that the benefits of camping could outweigh the problems it allowed. The idea that campers were not participating at all is clearly incorrect. Camping, I actually made things while sandboxes were overgriefed by editing attachments I had put in my inventory for that purpose. I also reorganized my inventory, traded stuff and otherwise networked. All things that require a person to be logged in anway. But instead of just standing around while I did such things; I was also providing an additional animated environment element for other users, and accumulating money to be dumped into the Linden sink by later loading data in. I agree with you 100% and here we're on the same side of the fence. I've done my best to improve the SL experience for at least 10 (currently) Avatars, that's all i can do in terms of giving back to the SL community. There are no direct business benefits against these ongoing costs....but i'm glad that I can maintain these friendships in-world....and it's always nice when TP'ing in to find familiar friendly faces to speak to. It's not always about maximising profits. I know a ton of Creators here in SL that contribute a lot to RL Charities in terms of creative and money donations. That's another aspect to consider whilst Commerce is being driven away from the Grid.

Madeliefste Oh wrote: It's more or less off topic in this thread, but since it is never off topic in your personal live, I like to wish you all best with your health, Luna. Take care, girl. Yep likewise Luna....i wish you a speedy recovery ! I always get a bit emotional when i hear something like this...having recently returned to SL only to find 2 dear designer friends had passed away. I kind of kicked myself for not being in SL at the time....but then again i was also having my own RL issues that needed to be taken care of. It's a hard balancing act at times.

Tari Landar wrote: I'm not going to quote, but I'll address somethings, so I don't make this another long winded rant of mine. I wasn't mixing you up with other people. I just tend to address not only multiple people, but multiple responses in one answer. At least, I was. That's probably why you thought I was addressing you, and only you, with some of my comments. I wasn't only addressing you, or only addressing certain things. This is my own fault and something I'll work on in the future, to avoid further confusion. Of course you don't recognize my av name from previous forums. For one, I wasn't nearly as active in them as I am these ones.(was still active, just likely not the same places you were, and I was far more active in the xstreet forums) and secondly, this isn't my first av. This just happens to be my favorite av and the one I chose to stay with after I created it.(now I only have one alt that actually gets used and I don't think I've actually logged her in at all in about a year, could be wrong on that, she was mostly used for building, pics, stuff like that). But not being "seen" in the forums, doesn't in any way suggest I never read them. In fact I read a crap ton of what's on the forums, and yet when you look at my post count, it would suggest I'm not all that active. I just choose not to respond to probably 95% of what I read. I soak up information like a small child though, it fascinates me. I appreciate you better explaining your stance. Others may not care when folks get rude, but, it's a personal peeve of mine, to be honest. I don't find it necessary in, well, *any conversation. You may get frustrated with me(eh, I can be annoying, lol, we all can at times), but that's no reason to be rude. When I get annoyed, I stop reading/responding and walk away, or whatever. I don't think people are so grand at explaining themselves when they get rude-and that's just going to make conversations crap(imo of course) and make it hard for me to even understand where you're coming from, or why. If I truly didn't care what others thought, and didn't want to hear what they have to say, I honestly wouldn't ask. I may be an oddball in my actions and words, but I am still a human, and a grown adult. I somewhat expect those I meet here on the forums to be grown adults too, and act in the same manner I treat them. I respect others' opinions, and their rights to have them, whether I agree or not, no matter what. In the main, I'm not rude....but i can get frustrated at times for a variety of differing reasons. Whilst it might not be common...it is a negative trait that I've always had, and has been consistent since my first postings in 2007. Most Forum oldies would probably recognise this fiestyness...and I'm not going to pretend i'm an Angel and play happy Forum families. I know what ticks me off...and that's usually when someone tries to put me down with a cheap shot remark....it all kicks off then! It's like a red rag to a bull! (Mickey are you reading?) Anyway...apologies.....i guess when you implied that i wanted to get rid of Freebies or started to re-write SLEX history...it kind of lit a fuse.

I hear what you're saying Madeliefste....but your case could be isolated one and might not be replicated right across the entire Mainland Continents.Then again it could be the norm, because of the popularity of Linden Homes with new Premium subscribers. The last data i read was from Tyche Shepherd...that 40% of Mainland was empty (or Linden owned)..but that was in early 2011. Nearly all of my Commercial lands outside my Partner's sim.....are on Mainland on 6 different sims. So i could tell you conflicting stories & experiences to yours. Some of my lands are in sought after areas e.g Garmisch on the old Continent snow regions (land values are higher there, than most of the new Continents) The best way is to actually tour the Mainland regions and get a feel for the overall occupancy. I've always loved exploring SL in general...so sometimes I do exactly that and take time out. Although I have my own Estates sims...i've always loved Mainland.....i like its continuity, it's infrastructure of roads, railtracks, lakes, rivers and joined Sims of continious landscape. Of late i see lots of land set for sale at 1 L p/sqm by Governor Linden....that's abandoned Land set for sale by LL, I think it's an automated process now, it doesn't just sit there as abandoned land. After 10 days it's up for sale. (Less Purple but more Yellow) Lastly , it would be great if Mainland began to fill up again.....as it might give back some value to our lands through natural supply and demand.

... _________________________________________________________ Tari Landar wrote: I'm not ignoring anything, well I wasn't. But you seem to lack the ability to converse with people who do not agree with your viewpoint without being condescending and rude. It's not really much of a conversation in that case. I find it refreshing that others, despite the fatc that we don't see eye to eye, can still converse like grown adults. That's the sort of conversation I'm more interested in(and why i even remained in the thread to begin with). I am, well was, truly trying to understand others' opinions(that's why I ask questions) but I can't do that if all you want to do is be rude. Others can manage, you don't seem to be able to. In my book, that negates most of what you have to say. It's also why I doubt your actual experience. You can claim anything you want until the cows come home. Until you can explain your viewpoint without being rude, it won't mean much of anything to people. _______________________________________________________________ ...that's because it's so frustrating reading your posts, when you continue with the same dribble. You harp on repeatedly, that no one can provide a reason as to why Freebies in-world are any different from Marketplace, I took the trouble to explain why one can avoid the noise of "Freebies" in-world....but it seemed like it fell on deaf ears, as you'd continue with the same dribble in subsequent posts with similar statements. It seems you ignore replies, or statements or any counter arguments.....and prefer to stand on your own Soap-box reading your own text-bytes. You try to re-write history stating that SLEX listed similar percentage freebies as it does on Marketplace today, when clearly that also is a nonsense. For the first 18mths of my SL life, the SLEX search system was effectively my bible as the SL client did not have an adequate in-world Search system, until LL introduced the GSA Search engine at the beginning of 2008. You make assumptions about my actual SL experience (which I consider rude by the way....or at least do your homework !)....as any SL old timer Merchant can validate that I've been contributing to both Resident Answers & SLEX forums as far back as 2007. (By the way I don't recognize your Avatar name from any of those forums) You have mixed me up with other posters on this Thread, suggesting that I wanted the removal of Freebies from Marketplace. Can you provide a link to any of my messages where I've suggested that. ? Whilst I've never liked Freebies from when they first appeared in large quantities onto the Grid.....I wouldn't be so arrogant as to suggest their removal from either Marketplace or In-World. The reason why I don't like Freebies....is more to do with evaluating it's impact on Second Life and it's economy over the next 2-3 years. It stands to reason, that with 2 opposing commercial cultures fighting over the middle ground....and the continuation of pumping of millions of Freebies onto the Main Grid, that it's bound to effect the SL economy in the long term. It's my belief that eventually prices of popular everyday items will priced below 50 L due to market forces. It's great for the Consumer, but unsustainable for those that rent Commercial lands and pay pricey LL tiers.or rents. Anyone with a clue, must realise it's hard to justify renting land for a Store that costs say 7000 L p/mth (average 4096 sqm plot), whilst trying to sell most of their products at 1 L or 5 L or 10 L. This model is flawed and unsustainable when factoring the lack of growth to SL concurrency.....and particularly alarming when Land & Sim Tiers are "still" Linden Lab's main revenue stream. Lastly, I'd like to point out that these forums are titled "Merchants" ...it's not exclusively just for Marketplace Merchants, as it also encompasses commerce & Merchants from the SL Grid too. Ok, I've said my piece...as i don't particularly find you that engaging either.....touche'!! I will leave you some facts to ponder over. 9th Jan 2011 - 24,811 Private Estate sims 15th Jan 2012 - 23,619 That's a loss of nearly 1200 privately held sims (5%) handed back to LL in the last year. Lets assume they're a mix bag of Homestead and Full-Sims => ($125 + $295) /2 => $210 average monthly Tier => 1200 x 210 x 12 => $3,024,000 USD loss of income for LL during 2012 (equals 780 million Lindens..in case you're figuring out whether it's comparable to LL commissions from Marketplace) ....now factor in all the abandoned Mainland plots during 2011, which we have no public figures for. You can see that this model is flawed and looking pretty grim for Linden Lab. There's no doubt a percentage of those 1200 Estate sims will be of the Commercial variety . Aside from RL recession and I'm not implying it's due to Freebies (it sure doesn't help!)...the more likely cause is due to LL pumping Marketplace through their official Viewers and driving shopping traffic away from the Grid. A... final final thought......if the 2 biggest Estates in SL (ACS Dreamland & RGF - own 15-16% of all Estate Sims), pulled out of SL overnight, the loss of their Tier income would practically wipe out all of Linden Lab's profitability and put it in the Red. Game Over! Now you can see why Rodvik (LL CEO) announced that Linden Lab will be diversifying and working on new products outside of Second Life....as the existing business model is very fragile in it's current state. I'm sure they have crunched the numbers with "what if" scenarios to see where that break-even point is. e.g less 3000 -4000 SIM tier income (and if they haven't done so already, they really should be doing that as a priority)

Sy Beck wrote: Randall Ahren wrote: I don't understand what they hope to accomplish by copying the wall feature from Facebook. Is that just a desperation move from a company that believes it has painted itself into a financial corner and cannot see a way out? I think you need to turn it around slightly. From what I understand about the popularity of Facebook are the endless little addon MMO games it now features. This whole genre of social networks is now branching out to encompass anything that can be used on the platform. Therefore, LL is coming at it from the other end of the spectrum as it were to entice those who like a little MMO gaming/VW with some social interaction and tempt them into SL. Ackk....Facebookers...who have the attention span of a door mouse!

Ceka Cianci wrote: i feel if creators (and i don't mean all of them) were worried about in world numbers and SL survival that they would not have jumped on the market place selling almost their whole stockthat is in their in world stores already..wouldn't a smarter move if in world support was the real concern to just put up demos or samples of products to enhance their in world sales? There's 2 million products listed on Marketplace.....and less than 1/2 Million Avatars that are login repeats and spend 1 Linden dollar upwards per month......do the maths! Too many mouths too feed. ......oh and I forgot to mention the 1000's of sims In-World that house commercial activities for which they pay Land Tiers/ Rent Hmmh.....something has to give. You notice the number of Private Estate sims that were handed back to LL during 2011? How much of Mainland is empty or for sale? 40% or more?

Chelsea Malibu wrote: So, I guess the OP is less a question and more a statement of your belief which, though I understand the feeling, I don;t completely agree with. Trust me, I too have seen the decline as I was the builder for SexGen and I have been in much longer than 5 years since this actually my second account. I made over 100k a year in SL from my enterprises and yes, I barely can pay tier now but I have been in business long enough to know, there are edbs and tides. Sometimes businesses go under but a good idea never ends, I think SL is a good idea and even if SL did go, I believe it would be replaced with something else. I'm kind of believeing that's the way it end up.....or maybe another Company might buy it and re-vamp it. The ideas that LL initally pioneered were very good....but they could not capitalise on it's early successes.. I think Second Life could have ended up being much bigger than what it has become.....and even Scaling issues, there are work around solutions..

garey Solo wrote: I post as my alt. I have been in sl 5 yrs now and own one of the largest design companies. I have watched the steady decline in sales & custom and also numerous first class creators leaving. Mesh will not keep existing creators here when there's no money to be made. They don't want to send their time again learning how to create mesh objects. I understand that LL need to improve & update. But they need to advertise not upgrade! I would urge all creators to stress this to LL asap. Otherwise Secondlife will soon become a pleasant memory to us all. There in a nutshell is your problem....something the Linden Lab has never really done, whilst other 3D VW MMOG and MMORPG games have done and grew during a recessionary period. No growth in SL for 3 years...in fact a slow but very gradual decline over the last 18 mths. I have already Tweeted Rodvik about it! i.e what are his plans to grow Secondlife whilst rival 3D platforms have successfully managed to do so? No reply as yet! lol

Tari Landar wrote: Some might, but so do the ones in-world, in fact if we want to go by numbers, the ones in-world *should be more damaging(if you believe they are at all), because there are Y I wasn't confusing you with any other poster though. I'm looking at the thread title, all the previous replies, and trying to figure out how they go hand in hand. They just don't, imo. You are confusing me with other posters.....as i didn't ask for Freebies to be removed from Marketplace....as i'm not that passionate about the product (MP) at the end of the day. The only thing that concerns me is the survival of the In-World economy.....if Marketplace dropped off the map tomorrow, I wouldn't be shedding any tears with or without it's Freebie listings. Having said that Gavin's proposals seems feasible without killing off your beloved Freebies. I've already explained the difference between Freebies on Marketplace and In-world....but you chose to ignore my previous reply out convenience...so that you carry on chiming the same nonsense about In-World Freebies like a broken record!

No freebies weren't that prominent on SLEX at all.....sure they existed, but it was such a small sub-group it wasnt' even worth worrying about....stop trying to re-write history! It just wasn't a issue! There are several reasons why they weren't prominent....firstly the in-world economy was buoyant, most Merchants were still making decent sales, was no need for price-dumping or handing out Freebies.....secondly as Madeliefste already pointed out....when camping was banned by LL , Merchants began to look for other ways of bringing in traffic to their Shops, so they began to offer Freebies as a means of marketing tool...at first in-world, then it shifted onto Xstreet (when owned by LL).....after that was via Hunts and then in-world Freebie groups & MM boards. Lastly SLEX visibility wasn't that great...as Madelieste again pointed out, you had to open an SLEX a/c and drop money into one of the in-world ATMs. SLEX was not promoted by Linden lab. At its peak, SLEX had about 700k of Products....Marketplace has nearly 2 Million products....180k are items priced between 0-10 L...so about 9% of all products....no way SLEX was in that league for free or cheap items! Camping ban was in May 2009 SLEX (later became XStreet) was sold to Linden Lab in Jan/ Feb 2009 NB SLEX renamed itself to XStreet not LL, i think it was something to do with LL not wanting other organisations using the name Second Life (or SL)

Madeliefste Oh wrote: Josh Susanto wrote: I was somewhat aware of that phenomenon, but I didn't realize it was much of an annoyance to anyone but me. The people paying the bots were just trying to put a dot on the map anyway, weren't they? I don't know in what time you camped, but what I experienced was that while in the beginning that I was looking for camping spots, I met a lot of people, people talked in open group chat or you did get IM's from people. And it was not hard to find a camping spot that paid well. Then it happened that camping spots closed, or became so busy that you had to wait to be able to camp there. So on the hunt for new spots. And then you came accross camping spots where was no life at all. Just twenty zombies on a dance stand. Nobody who spoke or stopped camping there. I first thought it was a sort or club where members had their own campingspot our so, too keep others out, but later I heared from other campers those are bots, and that they are around more and more, and taking the fun out of camping for both owners and campers. There was a way around that when i used my camping devices. At some point, i had noticed Avatars arriving from camping farms with similar surnames, they might have even been Bots. So what I did was create a role for my "real Avatar campers" within the Group that the Land was deeded to.....and only used Camping devices that could be "Group set"". After that it was impossible for outsiders to use...other than my official group of campers. Problem solved I had a group of about 20 sharing 8 spots in 4/5 different locations...they worked out a rota system between themselves, which was easy because they came from different parts of the world. Lots of them became close friends with one another...out of those 20 i actually had 2 small business owners -lol, which was kind of strange! Nowadays, there are about 10 left in that same group and still in SL.....i no longer use any camping devices since the LL ban, but i have a smart workaround solution! At the end of the day LL can't stop me from giving my own money away! Before, I used some pretty cool animated Camping devices that blended into the environment. I had a Chinese Noodle van with the Chef serving Noodles, a couple of Guitarists, another sculpturing using chisel & hammer, another gardening or mowing the lawn....they were pretty fun looking. I miss those days....at times we'd just all chat together and fool around, some of them ended up being SL friends. Some have been with me for 3-4 years now. I've given 1 of my Managers a free Shop, so that she can sell her own creations...so i don't actually pay her anymore. Another Assistant i've allowed her to sell her creations in the Square where she works. So they have benefited aside from camping money. It became a kind of mini community tbh

Tari Landar wrote: I don't think you were actually involved with SLEX the way you are claiming now. It was chock full of freebies, the big difference was there were categories for them. Xstreet was full of them. In-world, was/is full of them. For every merchant that goes out, another takes his or her place... regardless of what price points they choose to sell at, including freebies. There are far more inworld freebies than there ever were too, and that number grows all the time. But I don't see you, or anyone, suggesting freebies in-world should be limited, or even eliminated. What's so different about MP? Is it because it's one concentrated area? Or because it's one area that some merchants flourish in, while their in-world presence(f they have one) doesn't do so hot? What's really behind the whole "get rid of freebies on the MP" thought process? I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly asking. What really is it about MP that makes it a place where merchants should get to decide for others how to do business, but yet those same merchants don't feel the same about in-world commerce. In-world is a much larger audience, and while MP gets shoved into people's faces it has it's own flaws. Many people could be far more successful in-world than they are on MP(or potentially are on MP), because the audience IS bigger. We can see that from all of the threads about how people don't like MP, or use it as a search tool, some even want it done away with entirely. In-world is a much, much larger and in some cases very untapped resource for merchants. I don't know why people aren't applying this logic(or lack of in some cases) to inworld commerce that they want thrust upon MP merchants. Well that's an obvious one.....you get can past the "Freebie" noise In-world.....because all the searches relate to destinations and not individual products. I can probably list higher in any of the searches than Freebie locations if i optimise my keywords properly. I can also pay for Classifieds that can jump any Freebie Location in the listings by paying more for it. I can draw traffic through other means of marketing by... use of targeted Groups , Shop Sales hosting a fashion show or a Competition....or purchase radio advertising, or a full page in a popular magazine. I have greater control in bringing people to my shops regardless of Freebie content around the Grid. I feel their are still chances of getting people inside the shops. In Marketplace outside the paid-for enhancements, you're at the mercy of the Search engine that lists by products. The default view seems to be "Relevance" and that is where you invariably see an armada of Freebies or Dollarbies on Page 1 ....as they are being sold more.(guessing) I'm not sure what alogorithms the MP Search engine are using....but quantity of sales or product views might be couple of them.

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Good grief. You didn't even grasp what I meant. You're just twisting stuff now or pulling stuff from the air. Nope that would be your speciality.........you and the Birds! :matte-motes-sunglasses-1:

Tari Landar wrote: Rene Erlanger wrote: Mickey Vandeverre wrote: You do that, and you take JOY away from a LOT of people. Those people are my customers and friends, and me. They are also yours. You just missed analyzing that particular aspect of your business. And if you miss that part, then yes, you will have some problems competing. That's total crapola of an argument. IMVU's Catalog shopping site (which Marketplace was modelled on) has 6 million products listed none of which are Freebies. IMVU Avatars continually willing to purchase products from that site without any demand for products to be free. It is also the only place where you can purchase IMVU products. I would also add that IMVU membership are younger than Second Life and likely to have less RL disposable income than the adults of Second Life. SLEX back in the day wasn't swarming with Freebies like it is with MP....there wasn't an outcry from Consumers that products should be free, the same with SL Boutique shopping site. Admittedly we still had camping back in those days, so many non-particpants of the SL economy were still able to buy SL products......but there wasn't this expectation or justication to have Freebies like there is today. It's almost expected by the new breed of Consumers and Merchants alike. Anyone would think the World is collapsing, it's just that conditions are tougher....and more people are unemployed than say 3-4 years ago.....but that still leaves the remaining 80-90% of the adult population still in employment in most Western countries. This isn't the Great Depression....where the local currency was losing value daily due to inflation. If you want everything free in Second Life and no currency or abilities for cashing out....then there are some Open SIm grids that fit that bill.There you can create till your heart's content! LL should opt for one business model or another....becuase what we have now is not going to work in the long run, it will only get worst (or better for some!) to the point that nearly all products will end being sold for single digit amounts or become Free.....especially without any growth to Second Life concurrency. I don't think you were actually involved with SLEX the way you are claiming now. It was chock full of freebies, the big difference was there were categories for them. Xstreet was full of them. In-world, was/is full of them. For every merchant that goes out, another takes his or her place... regardless of what price points they choose to sell at, including freebies. There are far more inworld freebies than there ever were too, and that number grows all the time. But I don't see you, or anyone, suggesting freebies in-world should be limited, or even eliminated. What's so different about MP? Is it because it's one concentrated area? Or because it's one area that some merchants flourish in, while their in-world presence(f they have one) doesn't do so hot? What's really behind the whole "get rid of freebies on the MP" thought process? I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly asking. What really is it about MP that makes it a place where merchants should get to decide for others how to do business, but yet those same merchants don't feel the same about in-world commerce. In-world is a much larger audience, and while MP gets shoved into people's faces it has it's own flaws. Many people could be far more successful in-world than they are on MP(or potentially are on MP), because the audience IS bigger. We can see that from all of the threads about how people don't like MP, or use it as a search tool, some even want it done away with entirely. In-world is a much, much larger and in some cases very untapped resource for merchants. I don't know why people aren't applying this logic(or lack of in some cases) to inworld commerce that they want thrust upon MP merchants. now who is presuming? I was a merchant listed on SLEX...and a regular in SLEX forums. I didn't see any of these discussions regarding Freebies on their forums! The only outcry was when Ahnse Chung threatened to employ a 100 or so content creators for a RW company.....and mass produce SL items and sell them all for 10 Lindens....regardless of whether it was a complete house or a Palm Tree. That is what she threatened to do......naturally there was a backlash from SL content community. Did you not view the products created by "10 Linden" Freebies weren't an issue.....copybotted items being sold were more of an issue. ---------------------------- You are also mixing me up with other posters on here....I'm not demanding anything about Freebies on Marketplace nor In-World, i'm just making general observations about the SL Economy as a whole and where this is all heading. How can you undo 4 years of freebies littering? It's Impossible! If push came to shove ....and i was overly concerned about Marketplace and it's Freebie issues, then i would be in agreement with Gavin & Luna's suggestions and thought processes. I've never liked Freebies full stop...from when they first surfaced in abundance as BIAB resellers (Business-in-a-Box) during 2007...much of which were loaded with stolen copybotted content. I banned them from my Malls....only allowing original creators to rent vendor spaces.

Madeliefste Oh wrote: Rene Erlanger wrote: A woman can get by just wearing Freebie items and never having to spend a nickle!. It has always been so, and it will always be so. And for the majority that is exact fine, because they do not choose to spend a nickle. And no matter what you try, you will never convince them to become your paying customer. But why are you specially pointing to woman? None of my female friends still walk around in their newbie outfit or in 2007 found freebie outfit, but some of my male friends do. Seems for men even easier not to spend a nickle on clothing. Because it's not so saturated in the Mens Fashion sectors....there's still a lot of holes in that market. Still opportunities for quality Male fashion designers to succeed...even now. Have you seen some of the beautiful women clothing that are free or given freely to existing customers via their Group or through a Hunt or MM Boards or whatever?

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: You do that, and you take JOY away from a LOT of people. Those people are my customers and friends, and me. They are also yours. You just missed analyzing that particular aspect of your business. And if you miss that part, then yes, you will have some problems competing. That's total crapola of an argument. IMVU's Catalog shopping site (which Marketplace was modelled on) has 6 million products listed none of which are Freebies. IMVU Avatars continually willing to purchase products from that site without any demand for products to be free. It is also the only place where you can purchase IMVU products. I would also add that IMVU membership are younger than Second Life and likely to have less RL disposable income than the adults of Second Life. SLEX back in the day wasn't swarming with Freebies like it is with MP....there wasn't an outcry from Consumers that products should be free, the same with SL Boutique shopping site. Admittedly we still had camping back in those days, so many non-particpants of the SL economy were still able to buy SL products......but there wasn't this expectation or justication to have Freebies like there is today. It's almost expected by the new breed of Consumers and Merchants alike. Anyone would think the World is collapsing, it's just that conditions are tougher....and more people are unemployed than say 3-4 years ago.....but that still leaves the remaining 80-90% of the adult population still in employment in most Western countries. This isn't the Great Depression....where the local currency was losing value daily due to inflation. If you want everything free in Second Life and no currency or abilities for cashing out....then there are some Open SIm grids that fit that bill.There you can create till your heart's content! LL should opt for one business model or another....becuase what we have now is not going to work in the long run, it will only get worst (or better for some!) to the point that nearly all products will end being sold for single digit amounts or become Free.....especially without any growth to Second Life concurrency.