[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

Rya Nitely wrote:

Darrius Gothly wrote:

 

Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

Curious....does this affect any of your listings?

ROFLMAO!! Make up your mind Mickey .. which am I? Someone that speaks for others and doesn't have a voice because I never talk about how it affects me ... or someone that is solely focused on my own needs and world and couldn't give a damn about others?

Someone who likes talking.

GUILTY! Especially when I have something of import to say.

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

probably not a bad tactic to toss a rather large preserver (8 paragraphs?) to the captain first, though! (particularly if captain has email notify set).  sly...unfortunately a bit too obvious.  amazing how people's senses and reflexes are on heightened alert during a disaster 

Interesting. When I took exception to the lame and clearly flawed release methods of the Marketplace, you took exception to me being blunt and honest and chastising LL. Now, when I see some of the same failures, but I ALSO see that they are rushing to fix the problems .. and I honestly point out the difference between this time and the prior .. again you take exception to me.

It's just me you hate, isn't it Mickey? It really doesn't matter what I say or what side I take, you'll take the other side.

Ahhh .. how delightful of you.

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

Selling life preservers to Titanic victims is only profitable if you can convince them that they're sinking.

Rather than couch your response in some impenetrable yet mildly accusatory double-speak ... why don't you attempt some direct honesty and say what you really want to say? Wouldn't direct honesty serve a much better purpose?

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

Agreed, they can state that "attempting to avoid maturity censoring by altering your listing is a punishable offense" .. or some such language. However they didn't cough up the list when it was added to In-World Search and slammed a few innocent folks, and they've been silent on it whenever they've used it before .. so it stands to reason they have no intention of publishing it now either. It's just a shame they can't understand that its use is once again, just like it has been every time in the past ... WRONG!

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

You assume correctly, however if you had read these threads more carefully and paid more attention to my posts .. you wouldn't have needed to ask.

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

Curious....does this affect any of your listings?

ROFLMAO!! Make up your mind Mickey .. which am I? Someone that speaks for others and doesn't have a voice because I never talk about how it affects me ... or someone that is solely focused on my own needs and world and couldn't give a damn about others?

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

Gavin.Hird wrote:

You can choose between that and mass exodus of merchants when this fully dawns on them.

As we have discussed in the 4Q economy blog thread:

"...if LL expects a monthly contribution of $470 from each of these few accounts (85k) to make their business model work, they must do everything they can to support OUR business model so we can make payments.  If not their business model will collapse faster than they can remake it into something else."

I agree, the ramifications of using the outmoded and obviously error-ridden Naughty Word List is a foolish move. I have never liked products that use strictly a go/no-go blacklist method to censor or block content. (Anyone remember the Net-Nanny fiasco that blocked school kids from completing their assignments on Breast Cancer Awareness?)

Clearly the programming staff made yet another famous blunder. I won't defend that nor will I excuse it. But I do not believe it was done with bad intent on the new manager's part .. or on the programmer's part either. They clearly need to amp up their in-house expertise, employ some of the tried and true methods of accomplishing these sorts of tasks programmatically, and stop messing around with quick fixes that are known to fail horribly.

What I see VASTLY different this time around is ... we are actually seeing them back up and reverse direction .. and start working to fix mistakes. That alone is new behavior I have never witnessed before. (And if you ask anyone that was around during the Freebie Roadmap days, I'm not one to stop screaming until I see something get done.)

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

Gavin.Hird wrote:

The logical thing to do would be to send the list to the email address of all registered merchants, in addition to post it in the wiki.

It is not like 16 yos have never seen such words before if they stumbled over the wiki page...

Pardon my interruption here but .. can you imagine the outcry that would occur if only ONE email got sent to a minor? "Yup, good old Linden Lab. Sending email laced with rude, offensive and disgusting language .. to MINORS .. via email."

Can we say "Witch Hunt"? Maybe "Rioting Villagers with Torches and Pitchforks"?

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

CrashOV Uladstron wrote:

They moved it back.

INTRIGUE

No, not Intrigue ... Positive proof that Brooke is listening and responding in good faith.

Now for the BIGGER part of my thoughts.

First off, I was at the OH where Brooke formally announced the Maturity Ratings changes. At that time it did not dawn on me how the staggering of implementation (changes to listings first, changes to personal preference later) would affect sales. I daresay it did not dawn on ANY of the Merchants at the OH or surely someone would have raised it on the spot. But, near as I can tell, not a SOUL raised a single objection of that nature.

Yes, what's happened has had a serious impact on sales. But it's a side effect that WE did not see coming, and I'm betting neither did Brooke or the rest of the Commerce Team. But now that they HAVE seen it, I'd be willing to bet they are scrambling like mad to figure out how to undo the tempest in the quickest time frame possible.

Brooke is the Product Owner, she is NOT the programmer. There are people that work for her that do the coding. The list of naughty words has been around for a while, it was used by the In-World Search Team and apparently is still being used even though it's been shown to be very problematic. (As evidence, apparently the problems that WADE1 Jya ran into with LOLO Pets being banned because of LOLO is still around and is affecting listings that use LOL in the text.)

What is going on today is admittedly a massive blow to sales. No denying that. But I do not for one second believe this was done intentionally. And I damn sure don't believe they knew this was coming. If anything, this has been a big painful lesson to Brooke and team to pay special attention to unintended side-effects of sweeping changes. You can bet they won't forget this one for a long long time, and based on what I've heard from Brooke, I bet part of the reason the team won't forget is because she's gonna make SURE they remember.

LL will never divulge the naughty word list. If people knew the list, then they would craft their listings to use similar words, much like email spammers use funny characters and odd spellings to circumvent the spam filters. Furthermore, if anything gets learned by this fiasco, it will be that depending ON that list is a fools errand. Let's see how long it takes them to stop using it .. and start engineering more intelligent solutions.

As a programmer and long-time development lead, what I see has happened is the folks that were supposed to make a smart algorithm to simplify the process of assigning maturity ratings to every listing ... blew it .. big time. If I was Brooke, right now I'd be roasting a few chestnuts over an open fire .. in my office. I'd probably wind up having a few programmers sign a contract stating "I will not turn out code until it is FULLY tested again" .. in blood. And I DAMN sure wouldn't depend on SQA to tell me it was tested either.

So let's back up a bit .. let the folks in the Commerce Team have some time to figure out how to put out this fire .. and have some patience. Because as I said at the top of this post ... the mere fact that this thread got moved BACK here is proof .. they ARE listening and responding positively.

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

/me lays a single soft velvet rose at the foot of the brick wall .. and waits for Ai to pause and take a breath ...

It will be okay Ai .. I promise. It is always darkest before the floor caves in and the sky falls on your head.

Errr .. something like that.

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

Ai Velde wrote:

Holy crap. LOL! Every time I refresh more items are adult. This is hilarious!

Ai, that tells me that they are in the process of automatically scanning and "adjusting" your listings. Take a break, make a hot chocolate and come back tomorrow to see where it stands. I think you are fighting a computer right now, and it's not only much faster than you, it's also dumber and meaner.

In those immortal words ... "Let the eWookie win!"

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

New JIRA regarding the Maturity Ratings changes:

Add Maturity Rating Filter to Inventory > Manage Inventory page in Marketplace

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

Pamela Galli wrote:

I had a new Adult item --  a birdbath, with little singing birds that cock their heads and raise up their tails.

/me falls down laughing hysterically ... Those dirty DIRTY birds!

ETA: Pamela, I am given to understand that "penis" is a more acceptable alternative to "cock". Perhaps you should rewrite the listing so those naughty birds penis their heads.

 

Message was edited by: Darrius Gothly because sometimes the smart-ass just will NOT be denied!!!

[Maturity Changes in the Marketplace]

After reading every post to this point, I think the root of the anguish and frustration might be related to the mechanism used to shove a listing into one of the three maturity categories. This first pass used a "Pass/Fail" rating system that basically states "any listing containing just one of the many words on the naughty list is automatically considered a naughty listing." Unfortunately, as we have seen by way of numerous examples, this black or white grading system is too restrictive and too inflexible; real life is seldom if ever that clear cut.

I propose that the rating enforcement algorithm be modified to use a "grading algorithm" similar to that used by various Email Spam Detectors. Words on "The List" would not just be used to indicate a naughty listing, but would instead be used to grade a listing. When the program scans a listing, it will accumulate a total grade for each of the two non-general ratings (Moderate and Adult). If a listing receives a total grade that is above the threshold for that rating then it is forced to that rating. The Adult rating would take precedence over the Moderate rating.

This method would not only allow listings with such relatively innocent terms as Gor or Gorean to exist without shoving them into the Moderate or Adult categories, but it would lend itself to smoother, more accurate adjustment as we gain more understanding of "current word usage and meaning". (For example, it used to be totally unacceptable to utter the word "bitch" in public, yet today you hear it quite often and not a soul even hesitates or pays a bit of notice.)

There WILL be exceptions of course, Pamela's birdbath is an absolutely delightful example of this. But I believe a more flexible, less binary grading system will go a long way toward making the system more acceptable to all.

[Getting Immersed in Second Life]

In your interview about Create, you said something that rang true with me. You said (paraphrased) "You love to click a button and watch stuff happen." You also used the word "Create" a lot. Used it in the sense that it's about creating new things, experiencing new things ... goofing around without timers or deadlines or levels that must be overcome. Imagination at play.

Thumbs up Rodvik. Welcome Home.

[Changes to Display Names Based on Your Feedback]

First off .. HOORAY! LL has indeed listened to resident concerns. That's a major step forward and absolutely needs to be championed. Thank you!

I saw an idea posted about sending a Notice of some sort to the original name owner when someone picks their existing name as their new Display Name. While this sounds at first blush to have some merit, I think it does not properly identify those that will be attempting to use Display Names for mischief or griefing.

From my experience on IRC with name impersonators, those that are prone to engage in this "sport" do it routinely. I think it would be far more informational if LL kept track internally of those accounts that routinely pick new Display Names that conflict with existing User Names. They should also use an algorithm that detects the "common substitutions" .. for example a lower case ell 'l' is replaced with the digit one '1'. With the current font selection in the Viewer, these types of changes will escape casual notice and thus are ripe for exploitation.

Overall, I'm happy that LL has shown a growing ability to listen. As others have stated here, it's not perfect, but it's alot better than it was when first announced.

[Check here if you want more options]

Prok, leave these nice people alone and come back to the commerce forums where you belong. You haven't attacked me there in weeks and ... well honestly .. it's getting lonely. So run along, do what you do best .. and come on home now.

PS: I recently polled a random population on the use of the automobile and found that 91% of respondents found them useless and noisy, with the remaining 9% simply unappreciative. Therefore it has been decided the automobile will be eliminated from society. Next week, microwave ovens.

PPS: Did you know the Amish make GREAT hand-made wood furniture too?

[Check here if you want more options]

Programming good end-user software is as much Art as it is Science. But the real "bottom line" that must always be considered is this: "Designer/Programmer Time is Free". I know that sounds untenable, but it is the hard truth of any good end-user program. The amount of time the Designers and Programmers spend creating the right balance of functionality, personalization/customization and ease-of-use are negligible in comparison to the amount of time (and frustration) end-users will spend working around a poor design.

If it costs 40 hours of Designer/Programmer time to design and code a specific feature, that is equivalent to 400 users spending six minutes each. With software that has the intended audience size of an SL Viewer where the end-user counts can reach into the 10's of thousands, that 40 hours divided among those users is insignificant. (For example, 10,000 users would equate to 14.4 seconds each.)

This is why you must carefully consider leaving a feature out. If ANY part of that decision is "it will take us too long" then you need to also consider how much time creating it will save your end users. Will your expenditure of 10 hours save your users a minute of time each? !0,000 users at one minute each is the same as 60,000 minutes or 1000 hours of end-user time. You can easily see that those 10 hours have a "Force Multiplier" of 100 immediately ... and that is just the FIRST use. If end-users save one minute each time they perform that function and it is something they must do often (say once per day) then you must also consider how many days you expect them to use the software. One year? That's only 270 days (assuming work week schedules) so the Force Multiplier of 100 suddenly becomes a Force Multiplier of 27,000!! In other words, 10 hours of Designer/Programmer time is equivalent to 270,000 hours of end user time SAVED over the first year.

This attitude that "it adds complexity" or "it gets too complicated" or any other excuse is just that .. an excuse. Software and computers exist for one purpose and one purpose only ... to make something possible to do for a human that could not otherwise do it. It does NOT exist to coddle the programmer or save the Designer time ... their efforts to create the software are insignificant in creating good end-user software.

Spend the time during the Design phase. Spend the time during the Programming phase. SAVE your end-users the time during the much longer and much more important USE phase. They will appreciate you taking the time to consider their needs and the fact that you put their needs ahead of your own desires or preferences.