Codex Alpha

I wished it replicated orbital movement around a selected object like an 3D program, or ease of use and going into a 'fly mode' without moving the avatar as another method. Still not used to working in Blender, then trying to do something in SL and having to use the clunky cam move controls

Because experiences may vary between people and their usage of the platform. As many have pointed out how they have allegedly been assaulted or otherwise put upon in one way or another - their experience on the platform may vary from others - and dismissing their concerns or denying their personal experience doesn't help to come to a solution. If the OP did not experience this, or if it was truly a 'rare' occurrence then they probably wouldn't have bothered to post about it. Neither would I in my own recent post.

The only 'force' I see exerted on anyone today is some legitimate 'explorer' or people traversing Mainland regions - with the expectation that LL's promise of 'exploration' and 'discovery' are met. "Force", as defined in context as 'compulsion, or constraint exerted upon or against a person or thing' is objectively and observably and factually being exerted on random individuals, taking control of their avatars against their will - and not 'reasonably' pushing them to a nearby parcel or safe parcel in the region - but ejecting them back to their home - which has been reported as severely affecting user experience in Second Life. Nowhere in the OP or responses that request that orbs when used are set to a more reasonable delay 'forces' any land owner to do anything, other than be considerate of other's usage of the platform. The claim that LL doesn't read forums or take people's experience into consideration when moderating, updating and improving the platform is false. If the posters who claim this truly believed there own words, they would never see another person's posts, requests or suggestions as such a threat - or they wouldn't fight so hard against it. If they have the time to moderate the forums and especially the relatively rare 'hot' topics such as this one, it doesn't take much effort to write a note about both party's concerns and discuss it at the next platform staff meeting. Force: Use of a compelling force that exerts one's will over another's control of their avatar - and without their consent. This can be physical as in real life, or by the use of technological means or process inworld. strength or energy exerted or brought to bear : cause of motion or change : active power violence, compulsion, or constraint exerted upon or against a person or thing

. sorry better to stay on topic if possible

A lot of pages and a lot of things said, when the most simplest of solutions could solve the issue, protect the privacy of those who need it the most, and to allow us 'explorers' to Explore and Discover as Second Life promises it's customers by; - setting orb delays to minimum 15 seconds from within the API, overriding any countering scripts. Not one solid argument has been made as to why 15 seconds or more is not enough to attain their privacy or to secure their belongings, or stop someone sitting on their sofa. Other solutions have been presented, I've presented my own, but in the end, sometimes the simplest solution is best - and the rest as clever as they might be - are just over-complicating things. The state of things as it is for myself, is that I have no desire to 'explore' anymore, and the land that I rented and another that I purchased from 'exploring' I now only teleport to and from. I'm surrounded on all sides by ban lines, with only one side that is open to mobility and only because it is partially abandoned land and a small strange strip for sale beside it. I repeat, for those who create and sell things, there have been many sales, rentals and purchases from 'exploring' mainland regions - artists,scripters, builders, renters, land sellers got a lot of business from me that way just coming across them (and as well as my network that used to be on SL). The irony is that now I am forced to live as if I was in a private parcel, without needing one, because that's the experience. Teleporting in,teleporting out. Others teleporting in, teleporting out... There is absolutely NO point having an open world or for LL to maintain the logistics and resources to process it - if the majority of usage is teleporting in and teleporting out - along with practical usage/research/observation that people are leaning towards wanting privacy. Although I am a person who is very much open and accepting of being open in a publicly accessible region, and others may want to get 100% privacy without paying for it - the result and practical experience would be better served by methods adopted by many other platforms at this point - serving up on-demand, single instanced 'experiences'. This would take the privacy landowners issues and solve them by granting them what they wish - at whatever affordable price LL would offer - remove the compartmentalized parcel from the Mainland, opening it up to other users who are more open to a community experience, - thus removing the need for disrupting security measures - that will affect the positive experience of other users. EDIT: LOL sad that I have to do this LOL but still kinda funny. Words used in this post and their context A 'solid' argument: of good substantial quality or kind, made firmly and well, prudent, serious in purpose or character

You guys are EXPERT at reframing things. Very interesting.

Can't stop can you? Nearly every response you make is designed to incite a defensive response in your target, no matter what it was that they said, and you frequently join dogpiles too.

And.. look at them dogpile... they can't stop.

Please stop framing my posts as malicious, hostile, 'harsh' or any other portrayal that basically begs a defensive response - and is not very conducive to friendly discussion, which this should be. Constantly inciting someone else by making accusations to their motivations or portraying them (or anyone) in the illest of light is not 'civil' discussion. You can respond to someone else's posts without having to poke me or others in the process. Please stop, and address the ideas that someone presents, and stop the personal attacks. Thank you. I am not responsible for your reaction to what I post - that is your responsibility, not mine. Unless I post a 😠 at you, assuming the best of people's intent is best.

And I clarified the context in which I was using it. Clarifying or rephrasing a statement is a valid procedure in a conversation, or having to nitpick a word and agreeing on a definition so that conversation can be understood and continued. It may be tedious, but that's what happens sometimes while communicating with others. I don't use words as 'concepts' nor do I make my own definitions for them. I use words that are defined in a world-respected dictionary so that we can all agree on their meaning and usage (context) so that we can comprehend the ideas presented. Can we get back to discussing the topic or ideas now?

The context I was using was "A personal decision or action is one you make on your own".

Sure, don't take my opinions on the matter as absolute - I'm not a polarized person. For myself I support a notion to reserve the extreme tools for extreme cases. When block and mute is more than enough to eliminate a problem (for small offenses or misunderstandings) - then staff should be left alone, or calls to ban them is an over-reaction. Most issues can be dealt with by these tools. My argument was is that many don't use those tools BEFORE going to a more extreme measure. What can happen is that people can be framed in a much darker light than should be and have been subjected to over-discipline. I've worked in complaint departments, and the customer will ALWAYS exaggerate their encounter, or depth of their frustration - it's a normal tactic to amplify to communicate that a wrong has happened. I'm not criticizing that, it's just what happens and it takes a measure of patience and professionalism to first be able to empathize with the complainant, and then to assign an actual realistic level to the incident. I am not disagreeing that in the case that you have presented, it is extreme and exceptionally hostile behaviour, and repeatedly - like bypassing security systems, blocks, using alts, etc - Of course that needs a bit more staff interaction. Remember my argument first is 'give and encourage the user to take personal responsibility in managing their experience of the platform and others' - the most basic layers like block and mute, etc - then only get staff involved when it becomes behaviour that is sustained, bypasses, or goes to alts etc. Like I said, if the large banhammer is used for every user or occasion not only is it unfair, but innocent people get mashed in the process as well. Of course even the tools can be weaponized by nasty types if they want (group bans, sharing IP lists, etc) but that's a whole other topic. Yes, some people have become experts at 'skirting the rules' and that is also a form of trolling and griefing - and that's much harder to combat because there is nothing to report - and the reporter will seem deluded or paranoid. That was a typo, but it kind of fits a bit haha. I've quickly looked up the book you cited and got a quick overview. Clay Shirky - The Group is Its Own Worst Enemy (PDF) I'll have to read it a bit more first, but yes it seems to address things that I have noticed in just the last 5 years or so, and with the advent of Sansar, VR Chat where I noticed it the most enough to want to look up the psychology - I know it as "Early Groups Can be Toxic and Detrimental to Growth" kind of "Community Manager" type knowledge, but this is similar in thought regarding how groups can work against themselves for positive change and why. Can't comment on this too hard yet, haven't read it but will Edit: Also a related resource in similar fashion and relating to the challenges of creating online worlds: The Lessons Of LucasFilm's Habitat (Stanford U.) And some of that is necessary, and is needed in some cases - if one is pulling an income out of SL - this is needed for tax purposes. Also, many other corporations may have personal details. Yet they are all compartmentalized and so have (theoretical/ethical) limits on the use of said information. What Provoky proposes is a UniqueUserID, which is not a new idea - but it aims to identify an individual worldwide and under ONE governing body - has far more implications and issues. "The Right To Be Forgotten" or as how I would know it - practicing patience and forgiveness, is an important concept for us all - as we all screw up, we all lose it, we all do dumb things - and never being forgiven, never having our trespasses 'forgotten' - can cause great harm to the individual - and especially on a global basis. Social Credit has this same aim, and is practiced widely in China. No second chances, no forgiveness. We either behave a certain way or get put out of society.

I think this topic 'discussion' in it's entirety will speak for itself, and how it relates to the OP, and what Philip has to deal with and the challenges.

. I keep forgetting dealing with manipulators and weirdos never works out. I'll just report instead.

Phillip has a good handle on what it takes and what happens when civility is lost, first hand while developing HiFi . He couldn't solve it so recommended to users that they run their own servers, manage their own ban lists so they can restrict anyone they want, and have any rules they want - HiFi would just be the backbone of a disjointed universe of feifdoms run by tyrants - which of course all of them would be empty. Ebbe knew this as well on his own project, but he either seemed unwilling or unable to do what was necessary to bring everyone together, and eventually the same mentality rotted out that platform's core too. Everyone banned everyone else until there was no one left. From what I see hasn't been much civility at all, just people demanding things. A similar thing could be seen on chat rooms I and others hosted. As we moved to whatever was the most functional at the time, the same people would gather in the same groups, with the same results. Didn't matter what platform it was. Don't blame the platform, it's the people who make or break it.

Yes, because the response is oh so funny. Freedom is funny.

Part of civility and building a community is to not demonize others - and especially those who uphold human rights and freedoms. I am so amazed about what I have seen from 2020-2022 - a meming of such an important concept by many to turn something that is the back bone of the West and the USA specifically - human rights, freedom of expression and freedom of speech be turned into "Mah freedumbs! mah rites! Mah freedumbs!' Or even the accusation that those who promote such IDEALS of Western Democracy seek to abuse them and victimize others. This is uncivil. THIS is toxic. THIS spells doom for any world, virtual or not. To mock or meme Freedom means we are headed to doom. How can people be civil in a virtual world, or forum, when civility is GONE in real life.

Sounds amazing. And if screaming kids I just block them. Done. Next. Sorry, don't buy it. But it happens, and nothing you will ever do will change that - ensuring everyone is 'civil' all the time and a 'safe space' for everyone will come at great cost to the majority's freedoms and dignities. We've seen it demonstrated in real life the last 2 years. It will be worse in a virtual world who aims to make this their foremost goal. It has the same effect. You're protected through your own volition, no need to get governance. Well the other culture you propose is not one I want to move in. Now what?

Indeed. And it's best that way. They have very little influence and where they might have been big fish in a little pond, they get absorbed and irrelevant and have less effect. Best.

No. People taking responsibility for their own experience and reactions is the most important one, by using the tools they already have to manage their issues - and leaving platform staff out of it. Yet many many times, I don't see people using those tools, and seem to enjoy running to authority figures to wield as weapons against others. I've watched people literally orgasm with glee when they were successful at 'getting one over' on another user for whatever reason. They could barely hold their innards in, drunk on dopamines that they were able to get someone else to fight their battles for them. A battle that's not even worth it, but manipulating others is addictive to them. Yes, and that's a wonderful byproduct of a larger user mass. The tattle taling, the manipulation of staff, the cries of woe and alleged offense simply can't be handled personally anymore - and the people must resort to tools they already have. Like blocks and ignore. Yet to this day you will see users act helpless and victimized when the power is under their fingertip and takes 0.0001% second of their life to implement. The best thing for any platform is to grow to many numbers so that they can't deal with every little complaint, and that is when a platform is at it's best. Go look to Bansar and other small platforms who never grew past a small number where early adopting groups become their own force, and become toxic to any new user that tries to join. Couldn't happen on VR Chat or RecRoom as they grew too fast. Sounds absolutely amazing and a place I would like to be. Other than the most extreme (and exceptional) circumstance does a governance even need to step in - the most 'civil' and fair way is to give people the tools to manage themselves - and leave staff alone.

Yet that is usually not the result as observed and experienced. Maybe for YOU, but such movements are actually all about EXCLUDING others as a rule - who don't conform to their vision.

This also seems to happen randomly, but mostly if an object in front is obscuring an object behind, and if you move fast enough (or notice) you will see the object(s) behind 'pop' or be drawn into existence again. If it's a perhaps 'slow' draw, then you see a white flash before the asset is loaded back in. Seems like something that would happen as an optimization feature, but going a bit too hard on some system configs or graphics cards. It is very distracting though, especially when it happens in your peripheral vision or moving about lol

This may or may not be related, or what you are experiencing:

I can appreciate your passion on the subject - but really it isn't supposed to be that hard. Frankly all of this is quite tedious and I'm not interested in promoting victim culture and 'helplessness' to the point that governance of any type, whether in a virtual world or real - will happily step in and crush everyone in order to guarantee a safe space for all. A safe, secure and ultimately super boring and mediocre and soul-crushing space. Good luck. I hope everyone bans everyone else they think should get banned until there is no one left. "We can't manage the ban lists. We can't keep up with it. If we restricted everyone that everyone would like to have restricted, we'd have no one left" - Phillip Rosedale regarding social spaces in HiFi, where users constantly whining about others to the help desk, wasting their time, spreading drama and toxicity and fingerpointing and villainization of others - until ultimately it contributed (in part) to it's social area shutdown, and ultimate failure. Rinse and repeat on Bansar (in part), with the same attitude. Hey lets do it in Second Life too! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Perhaps this kind of thing can't be done anymore. It's over. Metaverse isn't going to happen, because it can't. The Rise of Victimhood Culture It's funny how one can notice a change in society, how much of a difference it makes in one's own reality and existence, and not really knowing what to call it, then come up with a relevant term for it, then find someone wrote a pertinent book on it. it really encapsulates what happens online and in real-world situations from home to school to workplace. In the end it just leads to the rise of the Nanny State - otherwise known as the Totalitarian State. "We're going to force you to be polite!"

Ah-ah-ah... that is not what I was proposing. I CLEARLY stated if it goes outside the TOS defined by Second Life and or even RL-laws of 'calling for violence against others', then it is already handled by the TOS or in RL, the law. Again, you can't be championing a movement to censor one person's expression, then bolstering another - which either/or is going to offend someone, so as a society we have allowed the maximum expression possible - making it legal to express your ideas short of calling for violence against the other. Yet online, when one group goes after another individual, and calls for them to be 'fired' from their job, or their 'career ended'.. this should be considered a 'call to violence against others' because it is an attack on their livelihood and how they feed themselves and their family and therefore is a direct and violent attack on their very lives. Why is it an attack on their very lives? Because the clear and END intention is to separate them from their means of living and creating an income - and people shouldn't play stupid like they don't know what this literally means - they die. Last time I checked if you don't have a job, you don't have money, you're first homeless, then you die. People play at this like it's no big deal - but it is, and in extreme cases people will act out in justified self-defence against such action - and as a country that can have serious ramifications and lead to serious conflict. Censoring, cancelling and inevitably destroying someone else just over what they said or a word they used is going too far, but some people will only learn civility the hard way - with uncivil like action.