Charlotte Bartlett

February 19

This really needs to be a video in SL University. I don’t use Blender but as the majority of SL creators do, would hope we can start to crowd source a best practice and tutorial channel under it.

i would be happy to contribute too for PBR based on the testing completed to date.

@Strawberry Linden @Patch Linden

February 19

On 2/15/2024 at 1:50 AM, Porky Gorky said:

Needing to use Reflection Probes in interior spaces is a real hindrance. Completely ignoring the issue of needing lots of additional lighting, using the probes seems to be extremely restrictive. We have either a sphere or cube to choose from and they can be scaled and rotated and that is it. You can’t seem to overlap them either without undesired results. So if you want to use them in a conventional house with rectangular rooms they work ok. But what about tapered walls, curved walls or a curved roof or even just a corner that is not a right angle?

Maybe I am missing the bleeding obvious here and I really hope I am, but it seems to me this completely stifles creativity when creating PBR buildings and designs will need to be restricted in order to conform to the limitations of the Reflection Probe’s shape.

Also, is any creator who sells PBR prefab buildings expected to include the Reflection Probes positioned into the final product? It would seem like the right thing to do and would offer the best result for the end users.

I recommend reading the Unity guide for probes. Complex with overlapping for spheres works. Rectangular isn’t there yet - I had an open Jira (before the migration) based on % overlap needed etc for complex.

I am testing organic shapes now.

Also don’t overthink the furniture and avatar stuff. I have been batching mod EEPs with houses to give folk a starting point to create their own as let’s face it everybody will have their own settings. But at least it gives a start. Customers range from significantly savvy who will do complex mods and use those EEPs to create amazing effects to those who will just rez out of the box and leave it at that. Furniture unless somebody has gone crazy with the “shine” tends to work well with the EEP I have been batching - including if you mix legacy and PBR items in a scene.

i went in early to PBR items, purely as from many years of experience, it is better for me to identify the bugs I find and get them in the LL queue whilst they are active on the project. I have had multiple of the ones so far resolved - LL have been engaged and super fast and this I hope will help other creators who won’t have to overcome them too. There are still a “lot” to go.

To help bridge the gap I still provide a legacy “baked” version for those who prefer it. But honestly when done right (considering the limitations, issues and variances) a PBR house can look great. So hope this encourages you to give it another go. I like problem solving so perhaps this isn’t for everybody.

Is it perfect god no. ACES kills me. But is it here to stay - yes, so personally I have found it fun to play with (with the mindset this is SL not a professional studio and whatever approach you take there are 20 more steps involved than there should be) so it is ALWAYS about the “workarounds” to find your happy middle ground in my opinion.

We are now up to 12pct of customers using PBR so still a small number but it is slowly growing.

January 27

29 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

How is it going to take more time exactly?

Removing topology to create an optimized mesh, especially if not clean, for a novice is far harder than adding it once you have a quality low poly set up.

Once they master that part of the workflow and the application they can adjust as relevant.

January 25

To OP can I ask why are you going high to low - it's going to take you so much more time?

The most basic of SL workflows is:

Build the Low Poly Model to use as the High LOD for SL.

Create the additional LODS for SL on it for Very Low, Low, Medium.

Take that Low Poly Model and increase topology and detail into High Poly (no UV map needed on High Poly)

Bake High Poly to the Low Poly for your materials.

Done.

January 15

Hi done

I also linked to an old thread on this - > https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/420778-cap-invocation-rate-exceeded/#comment-1738181

Plus gave examples.

Also tested elements like a region restart and noted on ticket.

January 14

Anybody been seeing this recently on delays of product gifting on Caspervend?

Back in 2018 there was some issues around this that I believe at the time Oz etc did some work on (not caspervend related).

A vendor was timing out not finding a user had come on line to receive a gift. (30K full region)
The vendor did a few sales in 24 hours (so very light use), but was in the some region as general heavy traffic using my other vendors.

Dropbox's on the same region but also replicated to a second region.

The message in Caspervend when trying to check again if a user was online said "Cap invocation rate exceeded:" followed by a UUID.
The giftees were online but the cap was stopping the delivery getting through.

Example extract:

Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:15:55 -0800: Executing step: waitforonline
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:15:55 -0800: Online check result: cap invocation rate exceeded: 'fd3527a8-4c6b-fbaa-17b7-4b9149802926'
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:15:55 -0800: Error - proceeding with delivery anyway.
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:15:56 -0800: Online check result: cap invocation rate exceeded: 'd02d41cc-280d-8838-4fa4-e836b1e51a79'

Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:35:55 -0800: Error - proceeding with delivery anyway.
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:35:58 -0800: Online check result:
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:35:58 -0800: Error - proceeding with delivery anyway.
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:35:58 -0800: Online check result:
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:35:58 -0800: Error - proceeding with delivery anyway.
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:35:59 -0800: Online check result:
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:35:59 -0800: Error - proceeding with delivery anyway.
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:35:59 -0800: Online check result:
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:35:59 -0800: Error - proceeding with delivery anyway.
Sat, 13 Jan 2024 06:35:59 -0800: Exception (attempt 60): Suspended processing until user is online (60)

(Neither are my UUID btw and none were delivered)

January 1

We did a poll of our customers to get an idea where people are at and will be repeating this each few months to track adoption.

This is a subset of SL users and those who are actively engaged with our products.

1. 61% are waiting for Firestorm to use PBR (so not using the LL viewer).

2. 15% are using the LL PBR viewer.

3. 9% will use PBR when Firestorm is in Beta (versus Alpha).

4. 9% Haven't used the LL PBR viewer yet but are intending to use it soon.

5. 4% are waiting for Alchemy or Catznip to use PBR.

6. 2% will never use a PBR viewer (reasons unknown).

January 1

20 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

There is some truth to this, of course.

But a few days ago I posted an example of a new skirt -- by which I mean created within the past month or two -- by a pretty well-known, reputable, and popular creator -- and how the PBR viewer impacted upon its sequins: it looks like someone has applied a patchwork of vaseline to the front. (Which, hey, far be it for me to kink shame, but . . .)

Should the creator have tested it in a PBR test viewer? Probably. Should *I* have tested the demo in a PBR viewer? Also . . . probably, and I'll likely being doing that for some garment purchases now.

The point is that there is going to be a lot of this sort of thing happening in the next little while, and not only for objects produced 5+ years ago.

Everyone's experience of PBR is going to be a little different, because we all use SL in our own particular ways, on our own individual computer setups, etc. I am sure that lots of people will barely notice a difference. I am equally sure that a great many will, to their dismay.

Quick question - that EEP is an pre PBR one (I have it myself) - did you update it for the PBR viewer or use as a legacy one?
I am finding legacy has to be updated for PBR. (Nice skirt btw!)

December 31, 2023

22 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Wanted to add to the "sort of" in parentheses.

There is plenty of mod items out there that it will NOT work well with. It depends totally on how it was mapped (both "well" and "method". So of course do NOT try and mod a no copy item unless you are willing to lose it :D.

My tables of the other day are a good example of when things WOULD work.

This table was mapped to take linear textures AND was mapped so that all the texture islands were the same in relation to their pattern repeats per size. There is plenty of mesh out there that does NOT do this. So depending on how the mesh was crafted you can adapt -- or not. :D.

That’s how I do mine too including houses. I would assume any decent creator would too and if they don’t boo!

December 30, 2023

2 minutes ago, Sam Bellisserian said:

Totally agree. I also prefer the first one. It just look more elegant like a real leather couch should look like. The second one looks more like a cheap imitation leather couch for those that can't afford the real thing.

I know of a clothing designer where I love the look of their clothes but it's all the shiny latex material so I won't buy it.

I don't know anything about texturing so I am wondering if PBR can be turned off like full bright or if it's built in?

It’s built in if a creator has applied PBR materials. But you could apply your own perfectly non shiny leather material now to a couch that before would have required you to have the UVMap and bake it. (Sort of).

I will create proper PBR leather material this week and show a screenshot. Everybody will have different taste but at least with PBR you can update mod items to your own taste very easily.

December 30, 2023

9 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I guess it all depends on what one prefers a leather couch to look like. I don't care for the shiny leather ones in real life so I dislike those that look that way in SL.

Two leather couches. The first is what I prefer. A more weathered/worn look. The second, not so much. At least we don't have to worry about slippery in SL! 😅

It kind of reminds me of when some creators make every single clothing item looks like silk/satin/latex. It's going to be over done and done to death.

That top one is how I would create the actual material. It’s lovely!!

December 30, 2023

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I can imagine the ads now..

* NEW * Made with PBR Materials!

* NOTE * This looks best in total darkness. [ Provides information on EEP settings for total darkness ]

Not just total darkness - ambient to black, sun to black no clouds!

Lighting is the biggest challenge to my mind - I have been making EEPs to help folk but I cannot stand midday (legacy or not) on SL and it's my personal bug bear regardless of materials on items.

December 30, 2023

19 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

So really only of benefit to graphic designers and professionals rather then 95% of the masses who will see little to no difference nor be able to appreciate it.

You don't need to be an artist to mock up PBR materials - plus I think people will sell them on marketplace just like the old days when you brought say a wood texture and applied it to a mod item or your own. I think that has more scope that right now with "baked" textures which limited editing significantly of mod items imho.

December 30, 2023

10 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

It depends if you prefer latex (the legacy render looks like it) over leather (the PBR one), I guess... 😛

But what would be interesting to know is whether this piece of furniture is supposed to be made out of one or another (or none of them, which would be rather embarrassing 🤣 )...

Gimp outfit repurposed for a couch?

It's actually a shiny leather (over shiny) as a dummy material I knocked up in a few minutes just to show how things look different. I would not be releasing something so slippery (well unless asked nicely for slippery furniture!).

This is the native version in SP to show the comparison (environments obviously different) - https://gyazo.com/4744db6dd8d8125e3981d3645163ca4e

December 30, 2023

12 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Honestly? I prefer the legacy materials.

I think a lot of people will too - Chic showed some great pictures of her items on the new viewer and they looked fantastic and I think that's the good news that legacy content won't be broken by PBR generally (kudos for that to LL).

I used a dampened environment for this so the key part will be how different EEP interacts.

Also I think this may revamp people doing mods on items and editing in world by retexturing with PBR (my hope anyway).

I think houses PBR edges the lead for me. I played with some slate flooring and it really was highly improved in terms of interaction with light (with PBR). I am about to create a house that is wet with a storm (my group asked for it) over the next month or so and building on interaction with elements like puddles, wet glass etc. That's where I am excited to try things, but perhaps I am just a weirdo LOL.

December 30, 2023

8 minutes ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

It certainly will.

As an example: Glass isn't great in PBR. In my opinion, well-made Blinn-Phong is actually better than PBR for glass right now.

But, that will change when / if the glTF extensions for Transmission ( https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glTF/blob/main/extensions/2.0/Khronos/KHR_materials_transmission/README.md ) and IOR ( https://github.com/KhronosGroup/glTF/blob/main/extensions/2.0/Khronos/KHR_materials_ior/README.md ) are implemented.

Glass and things like Pool Water have been where I have done extensive testing and torn my hair out multiple times. The two beta releases I got out I landed in a position where it was "good enough". I disagree though that you can't still beat Blinn-Phong at the moment but it takes some finesse in the workflow and post editing of the materials before importing into SL.

I did some glass bulb yesterday (string lights) where I think I finally landed on better than good enough. But it took quite a bit of editing between SP and SL to get.

December 30, 2023

23 minutes ago, SpiritSparrow Skydancer said:

Maybe places I visit do not partake of the bar but I am at a loss as to what I should be seeing. Other than an odd house and such as I posted previously… what exactly am I supposed to be seeing?

If this helps (and I just uploaded this material so it's rough and not prime time so just for the purpose of a rough demonstration. I quickly uploaded both legacy and PBR type materials for this (legacy would need some work)).

Same basic environment used in each for ease and same model. The 1 and 2 have additional HDRI and Reflection Probe Ambiance set in the EEP in the LL Viewer.

1. PBR Materials on LL PBR Viewer - > https://gyazo.com/9cef5a1681c72d2f8fad816d97ace8f2

2. Legacy Material on LL PBR Viewer - > https://gyazo.com/15032b5eaf0e96d126f1853fe41e36e3

3. Legacy Material on Firestorm Legacy Viewer - > https://gyazo.com/02cd218ca354abff0e43ee9ab3031f28

Legacy has a base, normal and specular included - on this one using these settings I would redo legacy textures if moving this item to PBR too.

December 30, 2023

Anyway I am still releasing PBR with legacy built right in.

Now I am off to have a PBR - the one I can drink.

December 30, 2023

8 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

When always replacing diffuse is selected and in ALM or forward render modes, and the face got a PBR material with a base color map, then the viewer systematically uses that base color map to replace the diffuse texture, even if the maker of the object did provide one as a fallback:

Can I understand this more please - I feel I am misunderstanding what you are doing with your viewer so if I am I apologise.

Are you saying you put in a viewer hack that will discard the applied or historic legacy texture and replace it with the PBR color map if present? How would that work with elements like glass where we have alpha channels embedded for example as I might in PBR create a vastly different alpha level due to the way the viewer operates compared to my "glass" legacy texture I use with shine etc.

I mean I get it with the plywood thing so if default is blank or plywood having a viewer pull that color map isn't a terrible idea, but if there is a legacy texture (for now) why not simply preserve it so the item looks like it was meant to?

So much to think about!

Also if a customer updates their own legacy texture it will differ from the PBR if both are applied (accepted and this should be the case). However their friends/others visiting their home (in my example) on legacy viewers if using yours won't see their edits but would see the PBR color map only as workaround - that will create problems I suspect - or am I totally misunderstanding this!

December 30, 2023

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Thanks, Charlotte: this is a valuable clarification.

I was under the impression, from what I'd read about these, that your two versions were for either PBR or Blinn-Phong. This makes a lot more sense.

And congrats, truly, for being on the leading edge of this!

I think a lot gets “swirled around” on these forums and then misunderstood. I wrote about our approach to ensure no white textures a few pages back when we did the first beta release. So appreciate in a way it got misunderstood so I could clarify.

Also this is the reason we have been packaging beta houses with full EEP set ups and lighting etc and probes so people can test and see how they fare if they want to test on the LL viewer or Firestorm Alpha. They are sale items when first released so 75L for the full set to keep it accessible.

SL features are always reiterative and rough when they first come in. Then we often see a lot of misunderstanding. But I refuse to Iquit. (Lol).

But having them implement early has allowed creators like me to really test hard and all the jiras I have raised have been quickly discussed. It forces us in a way to progress. I am not on any dev channels or inside groups so it’s very new for me.

If any creator is sending out blank texture items just ask them to throw in a legacy texture as a bridge solution. It’s simple and quick to do. Education helps all and again one of the reason we went in early with guides included in our channels and in our builds to help folk.

I am always an optimist and just a hobbyist but I do truly enjoy the new features and puzzle solving.

December 30, 2023

On 12/28/2023 at 4:17 PM, Pixels Sideways said:

I have noticed two merchants I frequent - Azoury & Scarlet Creative - have begun to use PBR in their creations, both have had to put signs out warning residents that if they are not using the new SL PBR viewer, they will only see a plain white texture, which is true. Azoury has incorporated PBR into some parts of their new store and Scarlet into the buildings they sell. Scarlet is aware of the issue so has included a "legacy non PBR" building in their package,

This seems like a huge *****-up on behalf of LL that if PBR effects are applied and you are not using a PBR viewer then all you see is only a blank white surface. At least with ALM and local lights, if you turn off those features you can still see the texture without the added materials. They will lack the depth and realism and light reflections but the texture detail and color is still there.

Hi just so nobody is confused!

For our PBR items we hav,e per our many posts here and copious testing and involvement in multiple JIRAs, been very invested in getting a good experience for our customers.

For avoidance of doubt our PBR items work for legacy viewers and will continue to do so (so no white textures!) We include a legacy version that does not have the reflection probes attached (the core difference) as those would be a PITA on a legacy viewer but they are fully textured so anybody visiting your house too will see a textured version no matter what viewer you use (or what version you rezzed PBR or legacy).

We put a sign since last week with our first PBR release (and our second one came out today) noting that legacy viewers will see legacy textures (not plain white or plywood materials) - > NOT that they would see a plain white texture! https://gyazo.com/0651af329ce5aadf596aa5c8751afea2

Sorry to quote - just wanted to ensure nobody is giving misinformation about our products here on the forum. We take it very seriously as we have been working really hard during PBR testing to ensure our customers have a great experience, no matter what viewer they use.

December 23, 2023

So today I finished a build today after a lot of help from @arton Rotaru on lighting tips and yes I had an ejoyable afternoon sleeping on his virtual sofa whilst scripting things and looking at his set up! Thank you!

These photographs are taken with all the bells and whistles set and high res. I am on a top end MacBook Pro that can cope with the graphics.

I released it as a beta version today with a bunch of EEP mainly to get people to start playing with it. I also used this house as a test bed through the past month which helped in raising a lot of JIRAs and LL have been powering through them and it's honestly been a lot of fun to work on something new in SL with a new set up like this.

Is it perfect - no of course not, and there are still a lot of gaps, omg moments etc. Smooth anim is now fixed so my pool isn't stagnant but my next focus is water and improving the realism in pools on next releases!

Things I learnt:

I have put on legacy materials to the PBR build so non PBR viewers don't see blank white or plywood textures. I felt this was necessary as I am not sure yet what the mobile viewer is going to land on.

Reflection Probes don't always lock and load so drag and copy if they "stall" on first rez.

EEP settings I am doing a bunch free with my release and tested for PBR. But then I had to back test in Firestorm legacy and found they go a bit too bright - but got close enough. I somehow have made a few of my suns square which distance multiplier fixes a bit - but might need a new JIRA this week for that as I think it's a core issue with alpha blending popping back up.

Reflection probes in a house cube blending need overlap. And they are a PITA to work with once rezzed. Use Edit Move (once you have probes on in Build Options) as Edit Stretch (for example) won't select them) plus transparency on. Even then in a house when you are using complex probes it's so tricky so I am going to workflow them being above the house and only drop them down once the build is ready.

❤️

December 19, 2023

9 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

Lets see... that are 13 point light sources plus the ceiling lamp which is a projector.
All it takes to illuminate the entire room is the ceiling lamp though, all the other lights are more or less for decoration purposes, because I like them. (There is one more point light even when opening the hatch of that secretaire desk in the background.) 😇

This is PBR materials only inside that room. If somebody wants to take a look how that looks in action (static images just doesn't do it justice really) you'll find it here:

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Dorjiev/80/87/802

Had a sleep on your sofa.

I would love to see how you did these lights as I am playing with mine now for my first release in PBR - fantastic work and build!

December 8, 2023

Thanks Chic!

i have watched it and it has incorrect workflow in it (but that aside)….also lacks explanations of “why”. I am likely going to make my own tutorial for folk with best practices at some point.

The challenge with box probes is with Ambiance, which I need for interiors to get the right effect: If you leave a gap and the probe “touches” a mesh surface the ambiance will show that gap between both probes. I am new to probes so I am going to find some more information to get a deeper understanding.

Sadly they broke transparency in the release yesterday, so I am thinking it’s linked. It is very much like alpha on alpha flickering.

I am going to stop tinkering. However I have to worry about the lack of regression testing as transparency broke on legacy textures. If one person edits something on an existing build (untreated to PBR) I am going to have a customer service meltdown as they will think the build is broken.

If you want some fun I can send you a copy of the house and EEP settings!

Normally I would wait longer (Firestorm I think have been sensible holding back) but I had to get my workflow sorted so I could train myself on the new (and expensive) setup.

December 8, 2023

EDIT TO ADD:

LL confirmed it may be limited to above 64m and a fix is in progress. Will be testing.

I have raised Jira - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-234804 - this just started in the latest update
Second Life Release 7.0.1.6894459864 (64bit)

But this is driving me crazy.

Open Plan House.

Three reflection probes (not overlapping but abutting each other)

Dynamic Set and running at 0.5 for Ambiance and Fall Off at .950

I am getting serious alpha flicker due to the looking through a transparent reflection probe to being able to see another in scene.
Both set to 100 transparency
Video here - slow mo version - https://gyazo.com/3b85294214270f57fe17a20299045f71

I have read everything I can including switching transparency to zero and putting in a alpha texture instead.

This house was tested and packaged ready to go then a new release downloaded today for me - and this was introduced.

Anybody done some testing with an idea of what else I can do to fix this? Complex is totally borked as of now for open plan homes with layouts that need 3 probes.

Also there is a new bug with transparency so I am wondering if related - https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-234803

Wiki says

"

Complex Reflection Probe placement

At times, you may wish to place a reflection probe in an area where the reflection probe types (Sphere or Box) do not conform to the shape of the area. For example, a Box probe in a loft room has a triangular shape, which results in "probe bleed" wherein the influence volume affects an area larger than what is needed, and thus bleeds out onto the exterior roof, which is undesirable.

In these cases, you may need to place multiple probes in order to blend together the sample volumes to achieve the desired result. In the loft room example, it's best to start with 3 box probes, which cover the floor, and each side of the roof. Then, use an additional box probe as "fill" to cover the gap inbetween the 3 probes. The main fill probe may need to be rotated at an angle to get the most coverage possible. If it is not possible to fill the gap between the 3 probes with this fill probe, you may wish to add more box probes to act as "secondary fill"."

Forums

Blogs

Knowledge Base

Posts posted by Charlotte Bartlett

Complex Reflection Probe placement

Linden Lab

Tilia

Second Life

Connect With Us

Partner With Us