New Article: "SL's loyal users embrace its decaying software and no-fun imperfections"

[Ayashe Ninetails]

LMAO YEET. Sorry. 

[CaerolleClaudel]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

"Heteronormative" isn't a reference to sexuality of particular players/users, but rather a way to characterize the dominant culture of other platforms and RL.

One can be gay and still come from a heteronormative cultural place. Indeed, even if one is gay, one is probably still under the actual influence of heteronormative values and ideas, in the same way that internalized misogyny still operates within even the fiercest feminist.

Comphet FTW, MFers!! 😖

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, CaerolleClaudel said:

My take (probably wrong, @Scylla Rhiadra would know—please feel free to correct me!) is that the article is not a game review, but about discussion of broader contexts using SL as the controlling metaphor.

I think that's exactly right.

In a broader sense, it's not really "about" SL at all, but rather about the culture that has produced it, and us -- and how digital media, virtual worlds, etc., are both reflections of that, and responses to it.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

2 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

My limited experience with Furry hangouts was going to a couple places that seemed popular, which turned out to be 'yeet' sites lol (I think that is what that activity is called?).

Yiffing?

Yeeting usually means "tossing away"

The normal term is just, "Yiffy"!

I used to go to the GYC - "Gay Yiffy Club" and drop a few L$10k's on their 'sploder just to watch 20 people or so TP in and pile on top of each other, as close to the 'sploder as they could get. I'd usually apologize to the host and DJ before doing it.

I never saw "yiffing" there though.  "Yiffy" has generally just come to mean, "furry fun".  Like an in-joke. ("Yiff" is supposedly the noise a fox makes while um.."yiffing".)

"How are you doing?" "Yiffy, thanks!"

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think that's exactly right.

In a broader sense, it's not really "about" SL at all, but rather about the culture that has produced it, and us -- and how digital media, virtual worlds, etc., are both reflections of that, and responses to it.

It doesn't make us sound TOO much like losers, it's just not a very good or fair representation of the current "state" of Second Life. 

If anyone read her article and then thought, "I'll go to Luskwood"  - they would have no clue about what "Furry" culture is like from the tameness that is (or was) Luskwood. 

[CaerolleClaudel]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I don't see this as a direct riposte to those, but it definitely belongs to the same genre.

I do agree that the paper is lazy. I'm not sure what kind of "career" it might have been thought to contributing to, but academia certainly isn't one.

Whatever criticisms people may have, however accurate, I still enjoyed the article and found it interesting. I would learn more about the parts that interested me if I were going to use those parts in any discussion, but they mentioned several things I had never even known existed.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

It doesn't make us sound TOO much like losers, it's just not a very good or fair representation of the current "state" of Second Life. 

If anyone read her article and then thought, "I'll go to Luskwood"  - they would have no clue about what "Furry" culture is like from the tameness that is (or was) Luskwood. 

Agreed that it's not nearly well-informed enough. And, again, I'll argue that it is to some degree focused upon an aspect of SL culture that was more prevalent 15 years ago than now. A more up-to-date version would focus upon the degree to which "the marketplace" (small caps, not the online platform) has reshaped our culture in ways that almost mimic a top-down style of governance.

But agreed also that it does not make us sound like "losers." On the contrary, its focus is upon how we've empowered ourselves in response to a glitchy platform.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

Whatever criticisms people may have, however accurate, I still enjoyed the article and found it interesting. I would learn more about the parts that interested me if I were going to use those parts in any discussion, but they mentioned several things I had never even known existed.

If you read the article but never tried Second Life, would it pique your interest enough try it?

[Ayashe Ninetails]

The heteronormative callout is weird to me, too, for reasons. 

Like we don't have those attitudes in SL, really? Rly?

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

On the contrary, its focus is upon how we've empowered ourselves in response to a glitchy platform.

She mentioned the wolf, and I keep thinking that by some measures we are the "Diamond Dogs" in SL's version of Bowie's apocalyptic landscape, lyrics (ETA: I think some of these are flat-out not the right lyrics):

"As they pulled you out of the oxygen tent
You asked for the latest party
With your silicone hump, and your ten inch stump
Dressed like a priest you was
Todd Browning's freak you was

Crawling down the alley on your hands and knees
I know you're not protected, for it's plain to see
The diamond dogs are poachers and they hide behind trees
Hunt you to the ground they will, mannequins with kill appeal

..

The Halloween Jack is a real cool cat
And he lives on top of Manhattan Chase
The elevator's broke, so he slides down a rope
Onto the street below, oh, Tarzie, go, man, go

Meet his little hussy with his ghost town approach
Her face is sans feature, but she wears a Dali brooch
Sweetly reminiscent, something mother used to bake
Wrecked up and paralyzed, diamond dogs are stabilized

..

In the year of the scavenger, the season of the *****
Sashay on the boardwalk, scurry to the ditch
Just another future song, lonely little kitsch
(There's gonna be sorrow) Try and wake up tomorrow

..

Come out of the garden, baby
You'll catch your death in the fog
Young girl, they call them the diamond dogs"

 

Edited May 13 by Love Zhaoying

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

She mentioned the wolf, and I keep thinking that by some measures we are the "Diamond Dogs" in SL's version of Bowie's apocalyptic landscape.

"As they pulled you out of the oxygen tent
You asked for the latest party
With your silicone hump, and your ten inch stump
Dressed like a priest you was
Todd Browning's freak you was

Crawling down the alley on your hands and knees
I know you're not protected, for it's plain to see
The diamond dogs are poachers and they hide behind trees
Hunt you to the ground they will, mannequins with kill appeal

I'll keep a friend serene
(Will they come?)
Oh, baby, come onto me
(Will they come?)
Well, she's come, been and gone
Come out of the garden, baby
You'll catch your death in the fog
Young girl, they call them the diamond dogs
Young girl, they call them the diamond dogs

The Halloween Jack is a real cool cat
And he lives on top of Manhattan Chase
The elevator's broke, so he slides down a rope
Onto the street below, oh, Tarzie, go, man, go

Meet his little hussy with his ghost town approach
Her face is sans feature, but she wears a Dali brooch
Sweetly reminiscent, something mother used to bake
Wrecked up and paralyzed, diamond dogs are stabilized

I'll keep a friend serene
(Will they come?)
Oh, baby, come onto me
(Will they come?)
Well, she's come, been and gone
Come out of the garden, baby
You'll catch your death in the fog
Young girl, they call them the diamond dogs
Young girl, they call them the diamond dogs
Oo-oo-ooh, call them the diamond dogs
Oo-oo-ooh, call them the diamond dogs

In the year of the scavenger, the season of the *****
Sashay on the boardwalk, scurry to the ditch
Just another future song, lonely little kitsch
(There's gonna be sorrow) Try and wake up tomorrow

I'll keep a friend serene
(Will they come?)
Oh, baby, come onto me
(Will they come?)
Well, she's come, been and gone
Come out of the garden, baby
You'll catch your death in the fog
Young girl, they call them the diamond dogs"

 

Not an entirely inapt comparison at all, except maybe that there isn't really any hierarchy here, other than the platform's largely unsuccessful attempts to exert control through a glitchy and flawed interface and code base.

[CaerolleClaudel]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And it's maybe worth noting that, while the article focuses upon the glitchiness and out-of-dateness of Second Life (both of which are surely unarguably true), overall this is a positive perspective on the platform.

What it is saying, in essence, is that the fact that SL is not a slick, well-designed, and very "controlled" experienced is what gives it such limitless potential for producing experiences that can be had nowhere else, and that offer new perspectives on virtual worlds, RL, and ourselves.

As I say, lots of issues with this article. But the central argument I find compelling and interesting, even if it needs more nuance.

I understand your point and the writer's (I think?), I just don't see how SL would lose it's 'limitless potential for producing experiences that can be had nowhere else, and that offer new perspectives on virtual worlds, RL, and ourselves' if it were easier to use.

Sure, as the writer mentioned, LL could simplify the mechanics quite a lot by not letting us move the camera independently of our avi, but they do not have to make the game less flexible to improve the experience. Me, I would just be happy if I could make the camera stay in position relative to the room instead of some random position when I Sit on something or am trying to work on my avi. Another would be to offer mouse-priority (I think it is called?) over window-priority (have no idea what this is called) so that I do not have to click outside whatever window I have to use to get something done (usually several windows in combination) to have the arrow keys move my avi.

FWIW ofc, others probably see things differently...

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Not an entirely inapt comparison at all, except maybe that there isn't really any hierarchy here, other than the platform's largely unsuccessful attempts to exert control through a glitchy and flawed interface and code base.

I liken it to a "Furry Roleplay" of post-apocalyptic partying. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

12 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

The heteronormative callout is weird to me, too, for reasons. 

Like we don't have those attitudes in SL, really? Rly?

Yeah, of course we do. GOD KNOWS we do.

But again this isn't a description of attitudes held by individuals. It's the implication that the workings of MMOG interfaces embed heteronormative assumptions within their design. Their attempts to "control" users through interface and code are attempts to erase "the queer," defined as expressions of different, non-normative cultures.

I'm not saying she's right, but that's her focus: the "system" rather than individuals within the system.

ETA to clarify. And because SL's interface is clunky and doesn't work well, it fails in its attempts to assert control (which is, in the writer's view, almost synonymous with heteronormativity), and permits us, as users, to defy those norms. Not ALL users of course -- but there is room here, created by the glitching of the platform, to be "queer." And SL culture to some degree reflects that.

Edited May 13 by Scylla Rhiadra
Clarity

[CaerolleClaudel]

1 hour ago, Ineffable Mote said:

Every industry is full of people publishing trash for the sake of publishing, and self importance. (and internet forums are a lot like this, too, and I feel like I should mention "blogs" as well .. ) It's kind of the down side of the promised "information age" overlapping in such a possessed consumerist society.

OT but I keep wondering how an ineffable mote can interact with the physical world? As in, typing into a forum?

(just joking, sorry...that does keep making me wonder though lol)

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

OT but I keep wondering how an ineffable mote can interact with the physical world? As in, typing into a forum?

(just joking, sorry...that does keep making me wonder though lol)

I almost always read it as, "Ineffable MOLE"!

[CaerolleClaudel]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Your last aside, about SL fashion, actually gestures at what is, to me, the central problem with the article, and that is that it doesn't account for how much SL culture (and not just its tech affordances) has evolved since the early days. We may not have the tight top-down control that other platforms feature, but we've evolved, for a variety of interesting reasons, into a heavily consumerist culture that is much less about "free play" and more about owning and showing off the newest mesh head, mesh body add-on, etc. I think our evolution in that direction is itself a really interesting story.

I am sure I am missing your point, I can even see how, but given all the customization we can do to the current mesh heads and bodies, I consider that mostly free play, too. I am not sure anyone could look at my head and pick out which LeLutka head it is. I have not really seen bodies shaped like mine, either. Then again, I may be vastly overestimating myself lol.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Not ALL users of course -- but there is room here, created by the glitching of the platform, to be "queer." And SL culture to some degree reflects that.

Unfortunately, the "reclaimed" meaning of "queer" is lost on younger folks.

Those who would be insulted at being called "normies", would also be insulted at being called "queer".  It's a paradox.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

SL culture

Did the author really even touch on "SL Culture"? 

Mentioning Luskwood doesn't count.

ETA: The article would have been perceived differently, had the author focused on the "hyper-consumerist" SL Culture, or the "hyper-sexual" SL Culture, or the "Bellisseria Barbie-Home" SL Culture. 🙂

 

Edited May 13 by Love Zhaoying

[CaerolleClaudel]

48 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

"Despite major upgrades in 2023, Second Life avatars remain obscenely glitchy, with airbrushed faces and spooky, unblinking eyes."

Crap, I remember reading about the 'airbrushed faces and spooky, unblinking eyes' (and was like, whut?) but then made a comment about the writer mentioning upgrades but not explaining why they say 'despite.' Thx for the correction, even if it was unintentional!

[CaerolleClaudel]

46 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

A lot of "first impressions" of Second Life, cached in colorful language and "anti-game-theory".

I liked the "anti-fun" comments. 

I personally am pretty on-board with the anti-fun label. Sure I have fun in SL, but but the clunkiness of using it has driven me crazy since I started in 2007, and I bang my head on my desk every time come back after a break and see the same clunkiness after 17 years.

[CaerolleClaudel]

48 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I thought the reference in the article was more to the "typing sound", "clack clack".

Yes, I guess it is a keyboard sound, not a typewriter sound, sorry. I was not very precise in my choice of words, ugh...

[Ayashe Ninetails]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeah, of course we do. GOD KNOWS we do.

But again this isn't a description of attitudes held by individuals. It's the implication that the workings of MMOG interfaces embed heteronormative assumptions within their design. Their attempts to "control" users through interface and code are attempts to erase "the queer," defined as expressions of different, non-normative cultures.

I'm not saying she's right, but that's her focus: the "system" rather than individuals within the system.

ETA to clarify. And because SL's interface is clunky and doesn't work well, it fails in its attempts to assert control (which is, in the writer's view, almost synonymous with heteronormativity), and permits us, as users, to defy those norms. Not ALL users of course -- but there is room here, created by the glitching of the platform, to be "queer." And SL culture to some degree reflects that.

I think I get what you're saying here (I'm tired, you can yell at me if I'm wrong, lol), and if the writer is indeed going with this approach, I don't necessarily agree with it.

The Fortnite and Roblox developers (using them as they were mentioned by name) may be a bit different here as they're allowing for players to use their tools to create their own things, but generally-speaking, game developers create what they know and some of them don't seem to know a whole lot outside of their own bubble. This is why the entire gaming industry has been having a moment lately where they've finally come to realize that they need to broaden their horizons, so to speak, and think of how to accommodate a much larger player base which does include people from all types of diverse backgrounds.

Of course, we won't get into how that's been received on the players' end, as that's an entirely different discussion (and very off-topic), but I do not believe all (or most) game devs purposefully create the way they do as a means to control or erase anyone. In some cases, perhaps they didn't know any better and just leaned on what's "normal" to them. In others, maybe they didn't feel qualified to put forth an alternative view (this happens in narrative writing and character design where sometimes you can tell when characters are not created by a person familiar with the culture...oof).

SL's quite different from that, just given how much freedom we've got to customize ourselves, our spaces, our environments, our experiences, and do our own thing. Perhaps that's what they were noticing?

Am I on the right track here, or am I sounding like someone standing outside rambling to themselves...? 👀😂

[CaerolleClaudel]

49 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Good boy. You don't have to stay after class to clean the whiteboard.

 

And THAT is precisely her point. We've adapted to it. Our culture has developed partially in response to it.

How often have you experienced someone TPing into a crowded place and apologizing with some variation of "Hi to everyone I haven't greeted yet, but you're all still rezzing"? That's literally a social convention that exists ONLY in SL, because of the flaws in the platform.

Or, "sorry to whoever I landed on!!" (move away from the landing site, people!!)

[Love Zhaoying]

48 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

52 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ok, Ok.."Ms. Dr. Rhiadra"..

Good boy. You don't have to stay after class to clean the whiteboard.

I am reminded of "Dr. Mrs. The Monarch", from "The Venture Brothers".