Would you use an "attachment-scope Experience"?

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

46 minutes ago, Anna Salyx said:

most people who don't want to be bothered by the experience query pop up are going to block the experience and so won't be constantly bothered by them

That's probably true. Until this thread I never even considered it.

But all they have to do is "accept" the Experience once, and they won't get asked by future attachments, right?

 

[Extrude Ragu]

On the topic of the spooky permissions dialog.

It's possible to get around the user spooking experience permissions window by linking the user the experience profile SLURL instead of llRequestExperiencePermissions

Brings up this dialog, which is much less spooky and full of technobabble than

Which has more warnings on it than when I make a credit card transaction using my bank.

You just have to never llRequestExperiencePermissions until llAgentIsInExperience is true.

 

I do think that attachment scope experiences would be useful so long as the user can leave and join them the same way as regular experiences. Many people don't need the full featureset of RLV and prefer the simplicity of the default viewer. Experiences could act as an RLV alternative in that sense, and offer more control to the user as the user can pick and choose which creators products have the permissions, something that is not (easily) possible with RLV and users often accidentally grief themselves because they buy a choker or some other item and not realize it's RLV enabled etc.

Edited March 11 by Extrude Ragu

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

That's really a reason for attachment-scope Experiences: folks who want to use furniture designed for an Experience could carry that ability with them, without the furniture needing to ask others for land-scope permissions

It's a fairly "Clueless Male Avatar" suggestion, frankly. We only get 38 attachment in total, and many female avatars use a lot of those, the idea that we might want to WASTE an attachment to carry an Experience with us for some furniture, is laughable. Especially as the furniture that tends to use Experiences is almost always AvSitter scripted, and most people with AvSitter furniture will have one or more of the three AvSitter Experiences enabled on their own land.

 

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Good point about attachment limits. It's something I never think of

Ladies and the other lot of the Jury, that concludes the case for the Prosecution, and we request you find the defendant Very Guilty Indeed, and request the maximum sentence the Law allows.

 

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Environment management

Why do you persist in assuming we NEED your damn HUD to pick our personal EEP for us? We don't. And we certainly don't want to waste a precious attachment slot on it.

 

36 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

The "easy" way out would be the viewer's interface for adding, forgetting, and blocking Experiences, which is pretty easy to use

*IF* you know it exists, and where to find it. Noobs won't, which is why Love's suggested "Scare noobs off SL with a screen covering Experience Abuse HUD" idea is particularly repellent.

 

 

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

10 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Experiences could act as an RLV alternative in that sense, and offer more control to the user as the user can pick and choose which creators products have the permissions, something that is not (easily) possible with RLV and users often accidentally grief themselves because they buy a choker or some other item and not realize it's RLV enabled etc.

What a steaming pile of fraudulent BS.

 

Lets clear this BS up now before anyone else talks crap about RLV to make Experience-Abuse sound more attractive.

There are exactly TWO kinds of objects that use RLV.

Worn Attachments, and Rezzed In-World objects, Rezzed in world objects cannot access peoples RLV enabled viewers directly at all as a general rule. They work by sending messages on a common "RLV Chat channel" which are picked up by a WORN attachment acting as a relay, that's why RLV relays are called Relays.

 

You can have RLV/RLVa enabled in your VIEWER for say the Wardrobe app, without EVER having to worry that "Scumbag.McNasty" will abuse your "scary rlv" to kidnap and grief you. Claiming that people shouldn't need or want to use an RLV enabled viewer for Wardrobe (tm) because Kidnappers from Zindra, Continent of Evil, is fraudulent scaremongering.

 

Worn attachments  can affect the wearers RLV enabled viewer directly, attachments such as Relays, and Collars/Cuffs etc.

However, I've NEVER seen anyone selling "a choker or some other item " that was RLV scripted, that didn't state very clearly "RLV enabled", in it's MP page description or on the vendor board, and very often in it's actual item name, you buy a choker, and there's 3 in the pack, one called choker, one called choker (OC 8.2), and one called choker (whim), for example.

 

Even then, wearing an RLV collar by accident does NOT automatically "grief your self", again that's fraudulent scaremongering. A typical RLV scripted collar, on sale on the MP or in a fashion store, won't "lock on wear", nor will it have a relay built in that's set to auto-accept by default.

You CAN buy items that do these things, but only if you specifically go looking for them, in very specialised stores.

 

Claiming that simply buying a choker from a fashion store means you might get ambushed by "Stealth Self Griefing RLV" is just a blatant LIE.

[Qie Niangao]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

But all they have to do is "accept" the Experience once, and they won't get asked by future attachments, right?

Yes, either "accept" or "block" will make it simply go away until they specify that they want to "forget" it.

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

the only thing lacking is the ability to have grid-wide Experiences. 

From a scripter's standpoint, sure, if we all had grid-scope Experiences we could do everything the attachment-scope Experiences would enable. But there are two other players here: the Lab, and residents who may or may not want to participate in the Experience.

Residents may not want to participate in an Experience all the time. Sure, they could "forget" it in the viewer interface and then approve it again the next time, but I'd think having something embedded in an outfit, for example, would be simpler to manage, like other attachments (or often embedded in such attachments, such as HUDs).

The Lab, I presume, is cautious about grid-scope Experiences, mostly to keep Residents from being unpleasantly surprised by unintended teleports etc.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

mostly to keep Residents from being unpleasantly surprised by unintended teleports etc

And that is why attachment based Experience-Abuse is a bad idea.

 

You go to a store, you drop a few thousand shopping tokens on a NEW bento mesh body, that looks really good, and promises to get plenty of merchant support, and...

 

"Shove Boomerang's Bento Mesh Body Experience would like permission to teleport you at random, fork with your personal EEP settings, force sit you, attach things to your avatar and control your camera, and much much more, Accept? YES/no Note: Failure to accept will invalidate your bento mesh body's warranty and disable all features"

 

There was enough pushback over a well known body brand requiring you to enable Media to use the HUD that came with the body, so much so, they eventually removed that requirement in an update. Imagine the push back if one of the "suggested use cases" in this thread, Experience-Abuse for mesh bodies, was introduced.

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

38 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Why do you persist in assuming we NEED your damn HUD to pick our personal EEP for us? We don't. And we certainly don't want to waste a precious attachment slot on it.

I keep forgetting how much there is to Experiences that many folks just haven't encountered. It took me a bunch of posts in this thread before I even got around to mentioning dynamic Environment "weather". It's a tremendously immersive effect, a whole other level of "environment" from static EEPs. The associated Experience would presumably be part of a general role-play / travel HUD, not requiring an additional attachment slot just for the Experience. (I had a land-based version of this for a few years offered from my Belli houseboat so the "front" could come in off the water, etc., but on a tiny Belli parcel it can't be as immersive as riding a train or a sailboat through a multi-region "storm" might be.)

[Qie Niangao]

8 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

There was enough pushback over a well known body brand requiring you to enable Media to use the HUD that came with the body, so much so, they eventually removed that requirement in an update. Imagine the push back if one of the "suggested use cases" in this thread, Experience-Abuse for mesh bodies, was introduced.

There's really nothing about this proposal that would require merchants to use the feature in the worst possible way and make it mandatory for their customers.

[Extrude Ragu]

36 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Claiming that simply buying a choker from a fashion store means you might get ambushed by "Stealth Self Griefing RLV" is just a blatant LIE.

Your post assumes that everyone who has RLV enabled knows how it works.

They don't.

Many users don't know what RLV is, or what a relay is, or that RLV is even enabled. Some viewers enable RLV by default - For example, the Alchemy viewer has RLV enabled by default. It's very easy for a new user to self-grief with RLV.

[Anna Salyx]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

 

Oh, I made that confusing somehow. An attachment-scope Experience wouldn't take the prop along, it would just enable the Experience that attaches props, same as its land-scope flag. The idea in this use-case is for a user to be able to select for themselves that prop-attaching furniture can indeed attach props, without needing the furniture owner to set it up (which may not be possible if they're a renter).

That does make more sense.  Basically an attachment that broadcasts to the sim when you enter (CHANGED_REGION) that you can accept this experience key.  Or would it be more along the lines that when the experience is checked/requested that the server sends a targeted "IM" to you that your attachment must answer? Either adds some overhead, but the latter allows for someone to take off the attachment mid session without having to leave the region... <ponders> unless the act of detaching also sends a message to the simulator.  There is a lot of checks and overhead that will need to be built in.  

   Now that said and someone pointed out I think that if you were only dealing with one Experience (such as AVSitter) that'd be mostly well and good, but if you needed to be in "a few" experiences simultaneously you'd need to either wear all the attachments, or swap them out as needed or desired.  Which means you need to know which attachments to have one at a given time *before* interacting with something that is going to ask for the Experience. This means things will have the chance to easily get very complicated or very tedious/cumbersome.  Or both. Because of that I'm not sure how much traction it might get.  

That's just my take on this mind you.

 

26 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Worn attachments  can affect the wearers RLV enabled viewer directly, attachments such as Relays, and Collars/Cuffs etc.

However, I've NEVER seen anyone selling "a choker or some other item " that was RLV scripted, that didn't state very clearly "RLV enabled", in it's MP page description or on the vendor board, and very often in it's actual item name, you buy a choker, and there's 3 in the pack, one called choker, one called choker (OC 8.2), and one called choker (whim), for example.

Even then, wearing an RLV collar by accident does NOT automatically "grief your self", again that's fraudulent scaremongering. A typical RLV scripted collar, on sale on the MP or in a fashion store, won't "lock on wear", nor will it have a relay built in that's set to auto-accept by default.

You CAN buy items that do these things, but only if you specifically go looking for them, in very specialised stores.

Claiming that simply buying a choker from a fashion store means you might get ambushed by "Stealth Self Griefing RLV" is just a blatant LIE.

I"m going to boost the signal this here. There is already enough misconception of the risks and dangers of what RLV is and what it can do 'to the unsuspecting', and we don't need to add more. And I'll add, that of all the TPV that I know of (and I'll gladly be corrected if I'm mistaken) there is maybe only 1 that come with RLV turned on by default. You have to consciously decide to turn it on, and reload second life. So, in most cases, for people who do not wish to be using RLV products (which can be very handy in a G rated sense (but that's a different discussion)) aren't going to be take over unawares. It's simply not possible.  And if they do have RLV turned for one more of the hand quality of life utilities, the chances of being taken unaware by some malicious item is still incredibly slim. No vendor of general product that might also cater to a RLV audience is going to do anything that can damage their reputations that way.  At least that's my belief.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Anna Salyx said:

Now that said and someone pointed out I think that if you were only dealing with one Experience (such as AVSitter) that'd be mostly well and good, but if you needed to be in "a few" experiences simultaneously you'd need to either wear all the attachments, or swap them out as needed or desired.  Which means you need to know which attachments to have one at a given time *before* interacting with something that is going to ask for the Experience.

Like a "charm bracelet"!

[Zalificent Corvinus]

32 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Your post assumes that everyone who has RLV enabled knows how it works.

No, it doesn't.

Knowing or not knowing about RLV does not change how RLV works.

 

34 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Many users don't know what RLV is, or what a relay is, or that RLV is even enabled

Even if it is enabled in the viewer, that does NOT make people vunerrable to randomly "griefing them self" by shopping in fashion stores, claiming otherwise is blatant scaremongering LIE.

 

36 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

It's very easy for a new user to self-grief with RLV.

More blatantly dis-informational fraudulent scaremongering LIES.

 

Rezzed RLV items like furniture cannot "grief" people just because they have RLV enabled in the viewer, claiming they can is a blatant scaremongering LIE.

Buying a "choker" in a fashion store does NOT carry some vast risk of "self griefing" because it might have "Stealthed RLV" in it, claiming otherwise is a blatant scaremongering LIE.

Worn items being RLV enabled, is actually a "plus feature", people who make RLV enabled attachments BOAST about this in their adverts, and charge EXTRA for this, they WANT people to know it's RLV enabled, because they will sell more at a higher price.

 

A pair of thigh high boots with no might sell for a couple of hundred, RLV thigh high boots, with padlocks, are more like 800. RLV attachment makers don't try to ambush "unsuspecting shoppers" with RLV attachments. Claiming otherwise is a blatant scaremongering LIE.

 

Thousands of SecondLifers use the "Wardrobe" item, to manage their clothes via a web page, this REQUIRES an RLV enabled viewer, NONE of them complain that they then get ambushed by "EVIL RLV" from that awful Zindra place. NONE. Claiming otherwise is a blatant scaremongering LIE.

 

34 minutes ago, Anna Salyx said:

There is already enough misconception of the risks and dangers of what RLV is and what it can do 'to the unsuspecting', and we don't need to add more

We don't, but the Experience-Abuse campaigners do, to make their demands for more abusive Experience code look less "dangerous".

 

[Extrude Ragu]

I think the whole argument that on some viewers users had to check a box to enable RLV means they know what RLV is and what it can do is disingenuous at best.

It's not uncommon for different items in Second Life to nag users to turn on RLV to use them, and the education supplied surrounding what RLV can do when they are nagged is often shakey at best if existent at all.

Collars sold on the MP are very often sold preloaded with RLV Relay functionality like OpenCollar and not advertised as such, and there is no accountability for store owners who do this.

I'm not claiming Experiences are better than RLV, but to claim RLV has no weaknesses that Experiences aren't better at I think is simply being dishonest for the sake of hating on experiences.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

being dishonest for the sake of hating on experiences.

There's an easy test for this which OTHERS apparently use:

- Is the feature new since 2007? 

Yes: Hate it

No: Support it

 

Edited March 11 by Love Zhaoying

[Anna Salyx]

8 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Collars sold on the MP are very often sold preloaded with RLV Relay functionality like OpenCollar and not advertised as such, and there is no accountability for store owners who do this.

I just tested on fresh unboxed copies of a few of the items I have:

Recent versions of OC (OpenCollar) does ship with a relay, but it is turned off out of the box.   You have to turn it on.

Whim does not act as a relay as far I can tell.  You need to buy in to the Whim system and use it's HUD to have any RLV functions with your collars/cuffs.

The most recent (I think) version of Peanut does come with a Relay and it does come turned on out of the box, however, it is in "ask" mode which means it's not going to snipe people unexpectedly or without positive permission.  You get pop-up from the collar asking if "named object" can use the relay to ask on you. (yes ignore block).

I don't have any Mars products to test with.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

What does being a member of the group mean? Do you control the code that is shipped in the collars? No. This is meaningless.

I assume it is like some magical "Feted Inner Circle" of RLV!

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

What does being a member of the group mean?

It means I know a DAMM sight MORE about RLV than you appear to.

 

4 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

simply edit collared scripts to work a certain way before shipping them

Have you EVER read opencollar code? Most people making OC scripted collars haven't either, they make a choker, drop the seed script into it, rez a standard issue Opencollar Updater box next to it, and it auto installs the standard distro straight into the object., including creating and linking named prims needed for collar functionality.

They don't MESS with the scripts because the scripts are compiled with... Wait for it, an "Experience", which is there just as a check, if the scripts in your collar are not compiled against the experience, then they have been potentially modified. Users don't have to accept the experience, it never even asks, it's used just as a "script is as compiled by the OC Team check.

 

10 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

And people do modify those scripts, all the time

Do they? You're claiming widespread collar script alteration for mailicios purposes, EVIL choker vendors ambushing innocent Fail-Viewer users, and blackmailing them with NAG-ware into self griefing.

 

And you wonder why I state that YOU are engaged in a deliberate campaign of dis-information with intend to scaremonger, for your own selfish ovver0-entitled purposes.

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

36 minutes ago, Anna Salyx said:

That does make more sense.  Basically an attachment that broadcasts to the sim when you enter (CHANGED_REGION) that you can accept this experience key.  Or would it be more along the lines that when the experience is checked/requested that the server sends a targeted "IM" to you that your attachment must answer? Either adds some overhead, but the latter allows for someone to take off the attachment mid session without having to leave the region... <ponders> unless the act of detaching also sends a message to the simulator.  There is a lot of checks and overhead that will need to be built in.  

Sorry, I'm a little busy in RL right now so I can't respond as efficiently as I'd like, and you raise good practical considerations. The way I see it, experience permissions granted in an attachment should apply (almost) exactly the same as how all existing attachment-enabled permissions are handled, so if detached, they just don't apply to the avatar session unless/until reattached. The big difference is that existing attachment permissions are for the scripts inside the attachment, whereas the experience attachment permissions would be obtained by other scripts (attached or not) based on the fact the experience permission-granting attachment is being worn and the land doesn't disable it, in contrast to how land-scope experience permissions require the land to have it enabled and the avatar account to have it approved. It doesn't seem that much different, but I'm sure there are details to be designed. For example, I don't know how it works now if I use the viewer UI to "forget" a land-scope experience that a script is using; however that works might be what happens when an experience attachment is detached.

I guess I have been tacitly assuming that the "experience permission-granting attachment" holds that permission in an Experience script, but a developer might prefer to use some other authorization token instead.

38 minutes ago, Anna Salyx said:

  Now that said and someone pointed out I think that if you were only dealing with one Experience (such as AVSitter) that'd be mostly well and good, but if you needed to be in "a few" experiences simultaneously you'd need to either wear all the attachments, or swap them out as needed or desired.  Which means you need to know which attachments to have one at a given time *before* interacting with something that is going to ask for the Experience. This means things will have the chance to easily get very complicated or very tedious/cumbersome.  Or both. Because of that I'm not sure how much traction it might get.  

I'd expect that most experience permissions would just naturally be associated with pre-existing HUDs. I do see, however, some utility in being able to combine more general purpose experience permissions in a single attachment, to store those we want to use grid-wide even though they're not grid-scope experiences for everyone. Right now, the only one of those I know I'd want is, indeed, AVsitter, but other attachment-scope experiences might emerge if the feature were available. Anyway, yeah, managing combined experience permission tokens/scripts in a single attachment might need some design work to keep it simple.

[Extrude Ragu]

Every experience in Second Life has a Scope, a Description, and an Age Rating

If a new user joins  Betty's BDSM Jungle Experience, rated Adult and scoped to Betty's Jungle. I can hardly complain when I join it and find my avatar being 'monkeyed about with'. I knew what I was getting into.

If I as a new user, download Alchemy, then buy a pretty red spiked dog collar - Does not mean I expect to suddenly find myself being 'dogged!' - In fact, I might have my preferences set to only show general/moderate content, made a general/moderate marketplace search, and attended a general/moderate sim and find this happen.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I assume it is like some magical "Feted Inner Circle" of RLV!

They are the people who MAKE Opencollar, and the people who test it before it goes live to ordinary users. The ones who make feature requests, and report bugs, and provide help with using the collar to others.

[Extrude Ragu]

And what happens when that dog collar user finds themselves being dogged in the moderate sim? Well what's the repercussions? The store owner will claim they put RLV in the description somewhere. LL will say adult content is allowed in moderate regions so long as you're not in public what's the problem. The new user gets blamed for simply not knowing.

If a general rated experience does something adult, guess what, you can report it, and LL can suspend the account of the person who made the experience. There's accountability.

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

If a new user joins  Betty's BDSM Jungle Experience, rated Adult and scoped to Betty's Jungle. I can hardly complain when I join it and find my avatar being 'monkeyed about with'. I knew what I was getting into.

Yet people complain about what happens if they "fall asleep" in an AFK chair at an AFK place. People will complain about anything and everything!

[Extrude Ragu]

5 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

They buy a "pretty red spiked dog collar", odds are the MP page will state that it's an RLV collar, and list some of the "cool RLV functions" like leashing and posing etc, because that allows the merchant to charge twice as much for it.

The relay in the collar will be either off by default, or ask, and there will be NO sudden surprises with being ambushed by furniture, or RLV control zones without consent. NONE, 

The collar will be set to private by default, so Joe Random can't just click your collar and take control of you, EVER.

This is entirely reliant on store owners being dilligent and having accountability. Neither of which hold true on the Second Life marketplace and you know it.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

17 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

If a new user joins  Betty's BDSM Jungle Experience, rated Adult and scoped to Betty's Jungle. I can hardly complain when I join it and find my avatar being 'monkeyed about with'. I knew what I was getting into.

BDSM places generally don't use Experiences to "monkey with" people's avatars, as Experiences are inferior to RLV for kinky messing.

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

This is entirely reliant on store owners being dilligent and having accountability. Neither of which hold true on the Second Life marketplace and you know it.

No, it's reliant on collar vendors generally being too busy and not interested enough to mess with the scripts, it's far far easier to just build your choker object, drop the seed script in it, rez the official OC updater next to it and click ok on the popup... wait a min or so, and it's pretty much done.

Plus, hordes of angry customers posting bad reviews about being ambushed tends to hurt sales.

 

Please stop trying to defend your indefensible blatant untruths.