Is simplebot.dae broken?

[CelticBells]

Hello everyone. I'm Japanese and it hasn't been so long using Blender2.8. But I first made a mug and then made apples and wine glasses. And I uploaded them to SL and everything went well. Next, I now used the basic SL 3D mesh model to tryed to create an avatar.

First of all, The 3D model data downloaded from the following SL Wiki.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh_Upload_test_suite.

https://developer.blender.org/F16281

I used ''SimpleBot.dae''. Uploaded to SL Beta. It's I was going to do a simple test.

This is a web page that I used as a reference. I followed this procedure.　

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Uploading_and_wearing_a_rigged_mesh

 

That is the state of the Screen Shot. The right is it a Rezzing 3D model, Left is My avatar like a fugly spider or something. And another 3D model is as big as a 20-story building. What is wrong with these data? When uploading, of course I check T-pause and weight (rigging option).

I used the Blender2.8 to fix the weight of this 3D model and rigged it over and over again. All bones and joints move beautifully in the blender. But after uploading to SL, they didn't work at all. I have already spent over 60 hours on this issue.

I used Goggle translating all English (Spanish and Portuguese) into Japanese. Perhaps I must first master three languages (English, Spanish, Portuguese) in order to fully enjoy SL production content.

I tried youtube and google search to solve this problem, but the Japanese tutorials are almost no. And the number of Japanese in SL is less than 2% of SL, and they are silent like zombies.

I need your good teaching and awesome advice. Please give me a solution or a good tip. Or please let me know if there are any forums or topics about my problem. :))

Edited October 26, 2019 by CelticBells
Information supplements and corrections

[shaniqua Sahara]

7 hours ago, CelticBells said:

Hello everyone. I'm Japanese and it hasn't been so long using Blender2.8. But I first made a mug and then made apples and wine glasses. And I uploaded them to SL and everything went well. Next, I now used the basic SL 3D mesh model to tryed to create an avatar.

First of all, The 3D model data downloaded from the following SL Wiki.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh_Upload_test_suite.

https://developer.blender.org/F16281

I used ''SimpleBot.dae''. Uploaded to SL Beta. It's I was going to do a simple test.

This is a web page that I used as a reference. I followed this procedure.　

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Uploading_and_wearing_a_rigged_mesh

 

That is the state of the Screen Shot. The right is it a Rezzing 3D model, Left is My avatar like a fugly spider or something. And another 3D model is as big as a 20-story building. What is wrong with these data? When uploading, of course I check T-pause and weight (rigging option).

I used the Blender2.8 to fix the weight of this 3D model and rigged it over and over again. All bones and joints move beautifully in the blender. But after uploading to SL, they didn't work at all. I have already spent over 60 hours on this issue.

I used Goggle translating all English (Spanish and Portuguese) into Japanese. Perhaps I must first master three languages (English, Spanish, Portuguese) in order to fully enjoy SL production content.

I tried youtube and google search to solve this problem, but the Japanese tutorials are almost no. And the number of Japanese in SL is less than 2% of SL, and they are silent like zombies.

I need your good teaching and awesome advice. Please give me a solution or a good tip. Or please let me know if there are any forums or topics about my problem. :))

i really don't know what to tell you except spend about $20US and buy a blender plugin called "Avastar". it will save you all this grief and make rigging for SL a breeze. i'd guess over 95% of people making rigged mesh for sl use it.

[CelticBells]

Hiya shaniqua. Thank you for writing a valuable opinion.

I knew the existence of ''Avastar'' but I didn't know what effect the plug-in would have on Blender.

The reason I created this topic this time was to understand why my avatar transforms into this shaped form and why the 3D rigmesh model becomes huge. But, I couldn't find any topics related to them because of my poor language skills.

As you say, if about over 95% of SL rigmesh creators use Avaster, how do the remaining 5% of people work on rigging? I am very interested about them method.

Of course, it is possible to purchase Avaster for $20 US now, but I'm concerned that it may be a “loss of opportunity to think for myself and discover the answer”.

"Use AVaster to solve problems quickly" 
"Improve knowledge and understanding of SL rig mesh creation and solve problems myself"

I think,, although these results look the same, they do not necessarily mean the same. And more that knowledge and understanding should improve the quality of my create work in future SL.

If Avaster can solve all my worry and problems, I may need to buy it right now. However, I want to leave it as a last resort. I thank you for your kindness. ;)*

[shaniqua Sahara]

38 minutes ago, CelticBells said:

Hiya shaniqua. Thank you for writing a valuable opinion.

I knew the existence of ''Avastar'' but I didn't know what effect the plug-in would have on Blender.

The reason I created this topic this time was to understand why my avatar transforms into this shaped form and why the 3D rigmesh model becomes huge. But, I couldn't find any topics related to them because of my poor language skills.

As you say, if about over 95% of SL rigmesh creators use Avaster, how do the remaining 5% of people work on rigging? I am very interested about them method.

Of course, it is possible to purchase Avaster for $20 US now, but I'm concerned that it may be a “loss of opportunity to think for myself and discover the answer”.

"Use AVaster to solve problems quickly" 
"Improve knowledge and understanding of SL rig mesh creation and solve problems myself"

I think,, although these results look the same, they do not necessarily mean the same. And more that knowledge and understanding should improve the quality of my create work in future SL.

If Avaster can solve all my worry and problems, I may need to buy it right now. However, I want to leave it as a last resort. I thank you for your kindness. ;)*

nods. i understand. you want the actual answers to the issues you are experiencing rather than just working around them.

i hope someone can help you.

[Ron Khondji]

Well the size thing is easy:
when you import the simplebot in blender the scale is 0,047. Before you export you need to 'apply scale' so that the scale is 1.0.

Why your avatar is all folded up I don't know. I just tested it and found no problems.

By testing I mean I downloaded the simplebot, imported to Blender, applied scale, exported as Collada with 'operator presets': 'SL + Open Sim Rigged', uploaded to the beta grid and presto, no problems.

 

[OptimoMaximo]

The folding over itself may be probably caused by the standard in use at the time of the file creation. Looking at the weights section in the collada text, ALL bones are listed, even those that don't have influences on some meshes. This was the standard before Bento addition to SL, which brought the need to remove the unused influences from the weights groups. 

Anyway, if you want to use blender to rig for SL without add ons like avastar it's perfectly doable, just remember that SL wants the avatar to face the +X axis. Do your work as usual and do it with the avatar facing - Y so the skeleton and weights mirroring works. Then when you are done, rotate all to face +X, apply rotation and export. 

About your other question: the remaining 5%of creators use different software, like Maya and 3DSMax. Although I find this percentile estimate to be overly reductive. 😁

[CelticBells]

16 hours ago, Ron Khondji said:

Well the size thing is easy:
when you import the simplebot in blender the scale is 0,047. Before you export you need to 'apply scale' so that the scale is 1.0.

Why your avatar is all folded up I don't know. I just tested it and found no problems.

By testing I mean I downloaded the simplebot, imported to Blender, applied scale, exported as Collada with 'operator presets': 'SL + Open Sim Rigged', uploaded to the beta grid and presto, no problems.

 

Hello Ron. Thank you for sharing my issue.

Regarding size, I always specified 1.0 when uploading. It remains the default setting at SL upload option. If changed the value to “0.045” at the time of this test upload, we were satisfied with the size. Normal human size. Now I don't say "ohh,, sorry" to the people in the sandbox. ahaha

But why does this change in size occur? Is it the effect of my Blender2.8 settings? My size settings should be default. I need to check import and export settings.

I will be rigging my 3D mesh model, but the advice you gave me is wonderful. I thank you for your kindness. ;)*

PS: Sorry for the UI in Japanese at ScreenShot

[CelticBells]

13 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

The folding over itself may be probably caused by the standard in use at the time of the file creation. Looking at the weights section in the collada text, ALL bones are listed, even those that don't have influences on some meshes. This was the standard before Bento addition to SL, which brought the need to remove the unused influences from the weights groups. 

Anyway, if you want to use blender to rig for SL without add ons like avastar it's perfectly doable, just remember that SL wants the avatar to face the +X axis. Do your work as usual and do it with the avatar facing - Y so the skeleton and weights mirroring works. Then when you are done, rotate all to face +X, apply rotation and export. 

About your other question: the remaining 5%of creators use different software, like Maya and 3DSMax. Although I find this percentile estimate to be overly reductive. 😁

Hello Optimo. Thank you for thinking together to solve the problem.
 Well I didn't think about three axes (X, Y, Z).

Because during the first test I didn't import 3d model data into the Blender. I downloaded it and uploaded it to SL Beta immediately. I wanted to know how those 3D rigmodel data(Simple.bot) look in SL.

I followed the procedure described in the Wiki SL article and checked the [joint position check box] for a long time so far, and continued to look for the “mesh folder” in my inventory after uploading in SL. These old articles on the Wiki can be misleading by beginners with poor language understanding like me.

Collapsing could be prevented by removing the upload option check box. Only Select the [Skin Weights checkbox]

The ''simple bot'' test worked, but I haven't tried ''My 3D rigmesh model'' yet. However, your great tips will greatly help me. I thank you for your kindness. ;)*

[OptimoMaximo]

1 hour ago, CelticBells said:

why does this change in size occur? Is it the effect of my Blender2.8 settings? My size settings should be default. I need to check import and export settings

Not really. Every object can be scaled up or down within a scene. This is being kept in a transformation record called scale, because it is something that can be animated overtime. However, when working on items you may find it easier to use the scale manipulation to resize things that are, instead, meant to be at their base size. For this reason, there are functions to "freeze" or "apply" the transformations you did to tell the software that what you see on screen is what the base transformation should be. So if you resize and rotate an object, for example, there will be a record to keep track of those transformations to retrieve the "base" (zero rotation and natural scale). In Blender, if you hit the combination CTRL+A to apply the transformations, you can then pick "rotation and scale" so that whatever rotation or scale was on the record gets wiped and the new rotation and scale YOU SEE ON Screen becomes the new base rotation and scale. Objects default rotation and translation values are shown as zero in all three axis, the scale instead is 1 on all three axis. Before exporting a file you should always check the transforms and, especially when scale is different than a set of three 1, apply the transformations. Then you're absolutely sure that your object matches with blender's scene settings. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by OptimoMaximo

[OptimoMaximo]

1 hour ago, CelticBells said:

The ''simple bot'' test worked, but I haven't tried ''My 3D rigmesh model'' yet. However, your great tips will greatly help me. I thank you for your kindness. ;)*

Another tip then: go to the machinimatrix website and look for avatar workbench. That file contains a skeleton with additional data attached to it to make it work for SL that blender can't handle (the so called collision volume bones, that should have a set of values in their scale to work, but blender can't bind meshes to bones that have a scale different than 1,1,1).

Doiteshimaste 😉

[Ron Khondji]

Quote

Regarding size, I always specified 1.0 when uploading

I was talking about Blender.

If you export from Blender with scale applied (scale = 1.0) you can leave the SL upload options as they are.

 

Allthough your way obviously works just as well :).  

[Erwin Solo]

I don't think Avastar is available yet for Blender 2.8, except for invited testers (I'm not one).  I've been following the testing announcements which are published on Avastar's public discord channel, and so I know it is close. 

[CelticBells]

On 2019/10/27 at 午後6時46分, OptimoMaximo said:

In Blender, if you hit the combination CTRL+A to apply the transformations, you can then pick "rotation and scale" so that whatever rotation or scale was on the record gets wiped and the new rotation and scale YOU SEE ON Screen becomes the new base rotation and scale. Objects default rotation and translation values are shown as zero in all three axis, the scale instead is 1 on all three axis.

Hiya Optimo Thank you for always giving me useful information. 
I am fighting the same problem again (the body folds). As you say, I rotated my model 90 degrees in the X direction in Blender. They applied them by “rotating and scaling”. I uploaded them to SL Beta and put them on, but my body was folded again.

My guess is that when data is imported (or exported) into Blendar, the bone and skeleton (rigging) information changes at auto.

I guess they are probably related to my Blender's initial settings. I cleanly uninstalled the Blender and deleted the cache folder.Then I did the same with the newly installed Blender, but the result was still a failure. The rigging information of the 3D mesh model for SL seems to be changed just by importing and exporting without changing the data. I'm trying to figure out which parameters, which numbers, and how much they change. It ’s a very long road.

I want to solve this problem before going into UV open seam and texture work. thank you for your kindness. ;)*

[CelticBells]

On 10/27/2019 at 7:34 PM, Ron Khondji said:

I was talking about Blender.

If you export from Blender with scale applied (scale = 1.0) you can leave the SL upload options as they are.

 

Allthough your way obviously works just as well :).  

Hiya Ron Thank you, I finally understood that. I misunderstood that I was working with SL Viewer.
Thanks to your suggestions, I will surely unforget both methods. thank you for your kindness. ;)*

[CelticBells]

11 hours ago, Erwin Solo said:

I don't think Avastar is available yet for Blender 2.8, except for invited testers (I'm not one).  I've been following the testing announcements which are published on Avastar's public discord channel, and so I know it is close. 

Hello Erwin Thank you for your feedback. Does that mean that the current blender version (2.8) is not worth using Avstar? Doesn't it work well with Ver.2.8 in the first place? I'm still struggling with rigging and more, but I'm not going to buy Avstar yet. But if I give up this problem out, I thinked going to buy the add-on.

[OptimoMaximo]

2 minutes ago, CelticBells said:

Does that mean that the current blender version (2.8) is not worth using Avstar? Doesn't it work well with Ver.2.8 in the first place?

It is a matter of updating the add-on to the new version, so it will be worth using it when the update is released. 

A few things have changed with this Blender release, and the scripting part might have been affected as well, in part or in whole, or if just may have to be adapted to the new interface. But, you might have missed my previous post, in which I was suggesting to get avatar workbench free file from machinimatrix website. I don't know its exact link location, but many use that. And that comes all set up for use in SL, so I'd say give it a go. It may not work as it did in the previous Blender versions, but it's worth a try. If everything fails, download blender 2.79 and use that until the avastar add on for the 2.8 comes out. Avastar comes with a lot of users support from tons of tutorials. 

Anyway, it would be useful to include screen shots when you find issues, so maybe something not clear in wording can be more easily spotted. Like how you rotated the avatar: did you rotate it to have the character look at the X axis, or is it's head pointing towards the X axis? The second option is what can cause a folding like the one you're reporting. 

Cheers😊

[Erwin Solo]

21 hours ago, CelticBells said:

Hello Erwin Thank you for your feedback. Does that mean that the current blender version (2.8) is not worth using Avstar? Doesn't it work well with Ver.2.8 in the first place? I'm still struggling with rigging and more, but I'm not going to buy Avstar yet. But if I give up this problem out, I thinked going to buy the add-on.

I remember reading that Avastar committed their "export to SL" routines as part of the base code in Blender 2.80.  Not 100% sure, but I read the Avastar Blogs and Avastar Discord, and so I've read so much that rereading to find a reference would be a chore.  

What I am sure of is that the "export to SL" options are in the Collada export options within Blender 2.80.  I use those, and I just don't have any axis problems; for my vehicle work, I can always get things uploaded into SL with the vehicle-front pointing in the +X direction.

Avastar numbers their releases to match the Blender version.  Avastar 2.79 is the current stable release.  They started working on Avastar 2.80 just after Blender 2.80 officially released. They were blogging about Blender 2.80 alpha and beta nine months before Blender 2.80 released.

I'm looking forward to Avastar 2.80.  I'm a fan.  I think it is a bargain for what it does.  I've been with them since Avastar went full release in 2013; they were in alpha/beta with Avastar in 2011, and had prior sculpt products since 2008 or so.  Though, I didn't use Avastar for a while and my license expired.  Still, when I took it up again all I had to pay was the renewal fee.  I'm going to play around with some Animesh once Avastar 2.80 hits full release.

Anyway, I put a lot of work into Blender 2.80 and am not going to touch Avastar again until it goes at least to public beta.  I don’t work for them or anything; just a long-time customer.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Erwin Solo

[Luxurious Slingshot]

On 10/26/2019 at 10:55 AM, Ron Khondji said:

Well the size thing is easy:
when you import the simplebot in blender the scale is 0,047. Before you export you need to 'apply scale' so that the scale is 1.0.

Why your avatar is all folded up I don't know. I just tested it and found no problems.

By testing I mean I downloaded the simplebot, imported to Blender, applied scale, exported as Collada with 'operator presets': 'SL + Open Sim Rigged', uploaded to the beta grid and presto, no problems.

 

I tried that, and the simplebot was even larger. I managed to get it down to the same (rough) size as my avatar, but no matter how I add/wear it, it's just a t pose stuck to me.

[Ron Khondji]

Well I just tried it again.
- Imported simplebot-2.5.38079.dae into blender.
- Aplied scale.
- Exported as "Collada (Default)(.dae)", with "Operator Presets": "Sl + Open Sim Rigged".
- Uploaded to the beta grid with all upload settings unchanged. Except for "Include skin weight", which needs to be selected.

Found "Simple_Bot" in my inventory, right-clicked 'Wear" and presto. Still no problems.

 

It looks to me like you did not tick "Include skin weight" when uploading the model.
 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Ron Khondji