Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Haravikk Mistral

The truth about Oz Linden's concept of open development...

Recommended Posts

After being an active JIRA contributor since it was set-up I've just had my JIRA privileges revoked on my main account for re-opening an issue asking for clarification as to why it was closed. The JIRA issue in question is VWR-7830 Automatically switch active group on group land: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-7830

The issue quite reasonably proposes an official implementation of the popular automatic group switching feature found now in many third party viewers, in fact the JIRA issue actually predates the implementation by third party viewers entirely. However it has been closed by Oz Linden, and despite my many reasons why the issue is still more than valid (some admittedly a bit heated given the fact he kept closing it without reason), I've only received two responses that mean anything.

The first is that the viewer evolution group decided to focus on the much simpler STORM-313 (improved parcel permissions display), this however isn't a valid reason to close VWR-7830 as it's a complimentary solution at best, rather than an alternative. As all it serves to do is provide more information, most likely overlooked, rather than solving the actual problem.

Second reason is that the JIRA is cluttered and needs to be tidied, and this over anything is the most compelling reason I've heard, but there's a reason the JIRA is cluttered, and that's because there are so many outstanding problems that need fixing or improving. All closing issues arbitrarily will do is remove options for actually solving those problems, an issue should only be closed if it is misfiled, or if the problem it related to has been solved, VWR-7830 fits neither of those cases.

 

Aside from all this I've been a resident and JIRA contributor far longer than Oz has even been a Linden, the complete and utter lack of respect for residents who actually know and have to live with the problems they're describing sets a dangerous precedent and wholly at odds with his alleged role as a lead in open-development.

I would very much appreciate it if anyone who reads this and sympathises will post on VWR-7830 with your views of the feature, particularly those of you that use it every day in third party viewers. And feel free to make known your opinions on threatening to and then stifling the voice of a JIRA contributor instead of discussing things with them!

 

I even tried to tidy up the issue into smaller pieces, and create a meta-issue to group them all under using my alt, only to have him block that even though that account has done nothing wrong!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He did warn you and whereas I sympathise with your frustrations, you probably should have let it go.

I do agree this would be a useful feature to implement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Ciaran Laval wrote:

He did warn you and whereas I sympathise with your frustrations, you probably should have let it go.

I do agree this would be a useful feature to implement.

I agree with Ciaran on this.  You should just let it go.  You are only going to make it worse by pointing fingers here in the public forums this way.  I use a third party viewer and do use this feature and agree it would be nice on the main viewer, but LL has limited resources and can only work on the issues that they determine is more important.  We as users can only make suggestions, but LL must determine what features and fixes are the most important to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know, but I wasn't about to be bullied into letting an issue go without a good reason for it being closed; he can't simply be allowed to get rid of an issue when the problem that it relates to continues to exist, that's not how the public JIRA is supposed to operate as it's supposed to be a place for user-input and prioritisation of issues through voting.

While users probably won't be able to vote on the issue while it's closed, I'd appreciate comments in support of the issue as he has to see that he's wrong to dismiss the only real solution to in-world group usability issue. Comments and votes on the related JIRA issue VWR-25526 (for the specific case of rezzing objects) should still work:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25526: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25526

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While you're right about LL's limited resources being a controlling factor, that isn't a cause for closing an issue as it prevents someone from submitting an open-source patch to it, and prevents users from having their say on its priority or future desirability. Viewer issues are now mostly handled by Snowstorm which is (supposed to be) an open-development group, but open-development can't occur if valid issues are closed as open-source developers should be free to work on and contribute to whatever they want.

I can fully understand LL wanting to avoid an issue in the short-term and focus on something else, that's perfectly fine and to be expected, but ditching issues just because they can't be bothered working on it right now isn't a valid reasoning for closing them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not well enough as I still have no idea who you're talking about :P

I get the point though! But I've been on the damned JIRA contributing since it was created and reported 274 issues, and yet Oz decides to mute me because I wanted an answer as to why my JIRA was closed, instead of just replying to my queries it's incredibly infuriating.

But am I wrong in thinking the issue shouldn't have been closed in the first place? Until group switching stops being an issue for people then solutions should remain in JIRA, even if a Linden doesn't want to work on them right now, but as it is it's still one of the most confusing and frustrating things for users in Second Life, old and new.

 

Of for... I've now apparently been banned completely as I can't even sign-in to the JIRA anymore, is Oz now getting off on being an immature idiot?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can sympathize with all the frustration, but it really doesn't matter one bit how long you've been contributing... If one starts to become a problem, ie- by not letting it go and persisting with demands, then they can expect to be blocked. Posting this kind of thing here, especially with that edit, you should really be thankful that JIRA was the only thing you were banned from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since when is asking for clarification or the simple courtesy of discussion being a "problem JIRA user"? So now we should all bow to everything a Linden says no matter how misguided or contrary to our interests as residents (you know, the paying customers that allow SL to continue to exist).

I, and everyone else for that matter, is wholly justified in persisting in demands for explanation, particularly when they are purposefully ignored. It's not as if I asked much; as the initial reporter of a long-standing JIRA issue it is only common courtesy that I should be informed why my JIRA issue was being closed so I could dispute it if I choose, and discuss alternatives to seeing it done. Instead I'm silenced from the JIRA for wanting some basic human respect on an issue that is as relevant today as it was when the JIRA was first posted, making it completely inappropriate for the issue to be closed.

The most telling piece of evidence in this whole debacle is that Oz Linden not once tried to argue with any of the points raised, instead he just resorted to "because I say so" and threatened to ban me. When a Linden starts resorting to threats to get their way instead of discussing the matter, then they are no longer acting in the best interests of anyone but themselves. Was I wrong to persist? I don't think so, as while it's certainly the reason I got muted, failing to do so would go against everything the JIRA and open-development are supposed to be about. Was I wrong to want answers about my issue? Definitely not! If the answer to our questions is being banned then what respect does that show for resident input and community involvement?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, you were wrong to persist. Just as landowner can ban anyone they feel like for any reason, the JIRA belongs to LL and they have the same authority. While it's true they've opened the database to the public, it doesn't belong to the public, it belongs to them. The courtesy is in allowing us to contribute, and if they get too irritated with our contributions then they'd be justified in closing it to everyone. In fact, a lot of companies have done just that. Very few large companies allow the public to see their bug database, it's more unusual than not if they do, and is considered a rarity.

What you've done is the equivalent of walking into someone's house and picking a fight. They don't have to continue to allow you access, they don't have to listen to you or give you reasons, nor do they have to be courteous when they throw you out. We are there by their invitation and they owe us nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you view the issue? All I wanted was an answer to the simple question of why an issue that I posted years ago had suddenly been closed.

The question here isn't whether the Lindens are within their rights to ban someone from the JIRA, it's whether Oz Linden was right to close an issue without giving adequate information or discussing it when asked, and resorting to banning in place of open discourse, as well as whether he was even right to close the issue at all.

His only reason cited has been a decision made in a viewer evolution meeting, however that decision was never to close VWR-7830, but to focus on STORM-313 in the mean time, so where did closing the issue suddenly come from? Why the lack of explanation? Why the lack of any attempt to offer alternative courses of action?

I had to come up with the main viable alternative myself which was to separate the issue into the complex case of auto-switching for land entry, and auto-setting group when rezzing objects, using my alt since my main account got banned, and you know what? That got my alt banned too! For doing nothing besides try to extract the simplest part of the issue so it could be reviewed again in its less complex form.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not going to say you're right or you're wrong, but I am going to suggest evaluating whether your current course of action will get results that are worth the effort being invested

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...