Virtually Sacred: Myth and Meaning in World of Warcraft and Second Life

[Madelaine McMasters]

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irihapeti wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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... given the choice between working through thermo problems and sitting around the campfire with a bottle of wine, it's a tough call.

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i go for the campfire

can talk about thermos in between the wines. When not singing and playing the guitars. And can cook chickens and potatoes and corns on the fire. Just need bring lots of tinfoil else way to crispy if not watch all the time. bc singing and wines and beers and playing and solve everything in the whole universe in like only 2 hours after 5 or about drinks makes you pretty hungry

not like when go a thermonuclear lab and is all these serious people in white coats and wearing lots of pens. And like say to them: wow! that a pretty big cool oven that thermonuclear thingy you got !! How long do I put the chicken in for ?? then they sometimes get a little bit upset. Dunno why. jejejejeje (:

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Not all labs are like that...

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

You're all hung up on his opening line, and not looking at the context or remainder of the interview.

 

Robert Geraci

: They provide a host of religious and quasi-religious opportunities. In the book, I am interested in the ways in which WoW serves as an “authentic fake” (David Chidester’s term): a secular practice that fulfills genuine religious goals. In WoW, these are associational in that they provide tools for creating meaningful communities and ways of reflecting upon ethical concerns, and they are devotional in that one can have meaningful and even transcendent experiences in the game.

. . .

Now for SL, i had two separate interests. One was to trace the ways in which certain religious groups shift operation into the world, forming virtual extensions for traditional religions, including the creation of new models for those traditions

. . .

In a separate chapter, I engaged transhumanist communities and their participation in SL . . . by providing places for the religiously-minded to form groups, build places of worship, and convene and by providing a transhumanist world (and worldview?), SL is also deeply connected to contemporary religion.

And a bunch of other stuff...

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We're all hung up?

That's a curious way to redirect the discussion, but I'll take it. I don't think that a desire to belong to a meaningful community (or find personal meaning) or to reflect upon ethical concerns are religious things. They're social things. Our appreciation of ritual isn't religious either, that's also social.

I know quite a few people who attend a church, drop a li'l money in the collection basket, yet have no more than a shallow understanding of the religion (or any other religion for that matter), other than it feels good to hang with a gang. And they're not wrong about that. It does feel good to hang with a gang.

My Mom is one of those people and she knows it. She'd be happy in almost any church, so long as they were a part of the community, weren't political, and had good pot-luck dinners. She sits though sermons and afterwards says "I've no idea what he was talking about, but he's got a soothing voice. And I like the stained glass windows." I get it, but afterwards I say "Some of what he said was pop psychology, some was nonsense, some was clichéd moralizing, but he's got a soothing voice. And I like the stained glass windows."

And transhumanism isn't religious either. Our ability to plan, which requires a conscious awareness of the passage of time, was another selected evolutionary trait. Couple that with our fear of death (and so our fascination with immortality) and you get transhumanism. SL is just another place to play with that idea.

But, to get to the meat of Geraci's research, there is something special about SL and other virtual worlds. They afford a contemplative space, devoid of RL's distractions, where we can focus our creativity and connect with each other. It is (if you're doing it right) a low stress environment, because of the control we have over it. I mentioned transcendence in a previous post in this thread, though that was directed at Dillon, who was a part of a shared transcendent SL experience. Many at that event remarked about the experience afterwards.

I imagine Geraci witnesses the same in-world social behavior I do, and I doubt I'd argue with him over the significance of it, nor how SL affects it. Mindfulness, connectedness, timelessness. It's all there, and it needn't be religious. What I'd like to know is, does SL enhance or degrade a persons religiosity, and is the demography of religion in SL markedly different than in the general population?

[irihapeti]

i like these guys already (:

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

This discussion can't really go anywhere unless we decide on a definition of "religious/religion." In these debates I end up on the "religion" side not because I'm an adherent to any particular organized religion but because most of the "non-religious" debaters seem to have a very simplistic view of what "religion" is. Their working definition and concept of "religion" seems to be their perception of the behavior of adherents to modern mass-market Western religions, which would be the equivalent of judging the cooking skills of Ettore Boiardi by a review of a can of modern-day Chef Boyardee ravioli. For instance, they consider religion to be "dogmatic" in which case Martin Luther, Jesus of Nazareth and Siddhartha Gautama wouldn't be "religious" figures because they didn't follow the prevailing dogma.

So, what is "religion"?

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

This discussion can't really go anywhere unless we decide on a definition of "religious/religion." In these debates I end up on the "religion" side not because I'm an adherent to any particular organized religion but because most of the "non-religious" debaters seem to have a very simplistic view of what "religion" is. Their working definition and concept of "religion" seems to be their perception of the behavior of adherents to modern mass-market Western religions, which would be the equivalent of judging the cooking skills of 

Ettore Boiardi

by a review of a can of modern-day Chef Boyardee ravioli. For instance, they consider religion to be "dogmatic" in which case Martin Luther, Jesus of Nazareth and Siddhartha Gautama wouldn't be "religious" figures because they didn't follow the prevailing dogma.

So, what is "religion"?

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Well, if you think the definition of religious is slippery, Geraci includes "quasi-religious" in his analysis. I think of religion as belief in god(s), supernatural powers or an intentional framework or order to the world. By that definition, I'm not religious. I think there's a framework, but I don't see it as intentional.

Quasi-religious probably would include me. I feel a connectedness to something far larger than me, but I don't ascribe that to some mystical power. I think that's just a way of thinking that makes my brain happy. I have empathy, so I'm able to imagine that other creatures, in moments of quiet contemplation looking up into the sky, feel the same thing I do. And my brain likes to think that way because over time, brains that didn't like to think this way were selected out by evolution. It's only been recently that science has offered up evolution and neurochemistry as potential explanations for the way we think (and that we do that in our brains, not our hearts).

But, as Pussycat suggests, that's not really Geraci's focus. He's interested in how this kind of thinking manifests itself in virtual worlds. I think any of us who tend to introspection have discovered that SL's a pretty cool place to do it. You an be alone with your thoughts anywhere here and SL can seem as expansive as the universe. Like the worlds we might imagine during meditation, SL is under our control. We can navigate space and time easily, and we connect with each other in an out-of-body way (except for those who mouselook ;-).

I've been socializing online since I was a teen, and I find it facilitates introspection, I think because it's devoid of distractions. I don't know if SL is the most effective tool I've used, but it sure works. No other online socialization method has wormed its way into my memories like SL. Am I more mindful than before SL. Maybe. Was SL the cause of that? I don't know. Looking through my telescopes (or more recently sitting on my roof looking at the sky instead of painting the siding) is more efficient, but SL ain't bad.

;-).

[Ceka Cianci]

Actually Siddhartha Gautama was not religious,his way of teaching was agnostic.

He didn't teach about gods..He didn't teach belief or disbelief of them..He sought out the cure for human suffering.

He taught that knowledge and meditation was the key to enlightenment to atain Nirvana.

 

(Bleh, kept hitting enter and triggerin mah post!!) hehehe

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

Actually Siddhartha Gautama was not religious,his way of teaching was agnostic.

He didn't teach about gods..He didn't teach belief or disbelief of them..He sought out the cure for human suffering.

He taught that knowledge and meditation was the key to enlightenment to atain Nirvana.

 

(Bleh, kept hitting enter and triggerin mah post!!) hehehe

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When I was a kid, we got new hardwood flooring in our house. Dad laid most of it, but some monks helped. They all worked in silence. Mom would deliver coffee and snacks, and sometimes ask Dad "where are you", to which he'd respond "Saipan" or "Mars" or "on the head of a pin". I asked him about that. "I'm traveling in my head, my hands don't need me." I talked to the monks. They were doing the same thing.

And I realized I did it when swinging or flying a kite. I'd block out everything and go traveling. I loved sitting on my kite up in the clouds, having picnics with the birds. I think we were one cloud over from Nirvana.

;-).

 

[Ceka Cianci]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

Actually Siddhartha Gautama was not religious,his way of teaching was agnostic.

He didn't teach about gods..He didn't teach belief or disbelief of them..He sought out the cure for human suffering.

He taught that knowledge and meditation was the key to enlightenment to atain Nirvana.

 

(Bleh, kept hitting enter and triggerin mah post!!) hehehe

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When I was a kid, we got new hardwood flooring in our house. Dad laid most of it, but some monks helped. They all worked in silence. Mom would deliver coffee and snacks, and sometimes ask Dad "where are you", to which he'd respond "Saipan" or "Mars" or "on the head of a pin". I asked him about that. "I'm traveling in my head, my hands don't need me." I talked to the monks. They were doing the same thing.

And I realized I did it when swinging or flying a kite. I'd block out everything and go traveling. I loved sitting on my kite up in the clouds, having picnics with the birds. I think we were one cloud over from Nirvana.

;-).

 

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I've really enjoy studying it. I find it goes well with the universe, which i like to study just about every chance i get also..

That was a really short version of an explination i gave in that other post,but my keyboard kept wigging out on me hehehe

That and i didn't want to go too crazy with it hehehe

 ETA: Also,that is a very cool story,Would like to meet some real monks from the east..=)

I find myself getting lost all the time just looking at a patch of grass  or the bark on a tree or under a rock,where so much stuff is going on in that world that doesn't even know ours exists hehehe

 

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

Ceka, I think I've linked this before, and if I did, it was probably in a discussion where you were present. You're one of the people that comes to mind when my mind goes wandering in search of beautiful vistas. I recall you talking about riding your horse through the country side.
Here's Denis Dutton's marvelous theory of beauty...

A minute into his talk (1:10 in the video) Denis introduced Van Gogh's "Starry Night", which brings me back to this...

[Ceka Cianci]

i was hoping i could edit before you replied,

think i need to get on my desktop because my ipad keeps wigging out hehehe

[Ceka Cianci]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Ceka, I think I've linked this before, and if I did, it was probably in a discussion where you were present. You're one of the people that comes to mind when my mind goes wandering in search of beautiful vistas. I recall you talking about riding your horse through the country side.

Here's Denis Dutton's marvelous theory of beauty...

A minute into his talk (1:10 in the video) Denis introduced Van Gogh's "Starry Night", which brings me back to this...

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I remember that second one very well,and i love when it pops up in a thread:smileyhappy:

 

I think my favorite view of them all is on top of any mountain where i can see for miles and miles..

being able to see so far but knowing it would still take a couple of days to get there by horse hehehe

seeing the big picture as well as the little pictures along the way..

pointing out a spot from up there and knowing from memory what it is like there..

kind of like looking into a patch of grass..

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

Actually Siddhartha Gautama was not religious,his way of teaching was agnostic.

He didn't teach about gods..He didn't teach belief or disbelief of them..He sought out the cure for human suffering.

He taught that knowledge and meditation was the key to enlightenment to atain Nirvana.

 

(Bleh, kept hitting enter and triggerin mah post!!) hehehe

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Buddhism is a religion - it just doesn't have a personalized deity, which is no requirement for a religion. This is my point - there are many, many more ways of religious thinking than the traditional Abrahamic way that many in Western society assume. I think of some of the athiests in these forums as "Sunday-school athiests" because the God they don't beileve in is the God of Western Sunday-school and they aren't familiar with other concepts.

Personally, I'm comfortable using the word God but I use it to refer to that which is infinite, eternal and representing the organizational structure of the universe. I don't think of it as being separate from the "natural" world and I don't see it as having an overall intellect or decision-making process that our monkey brains could recognize as such. A student of religion would say that I'm a panthiest, where God is the whole of existence and the objects of we think of as the natural world are aspects of it.

I also don't believe in the supernatural - however, that doesn't mean I don't disbelieve in things like ghosts or mystical experiences because aspects of them are common enough in societies that there may be a common source we can't comprehend - however, if there are such things they'd be part and parcel of the "natural" world along with everything else. .

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

Actually Siddhartha Gautama was not religious,his way of teaching was agnostic.

He didn't teach about gods..He didn't teach belief or disbelief of them..He sought out the cure for human suffering.

He taught that knowledge and meditation was the key to enlightenment to atain Nirvana.

 

(Bleh, kept hitting enter and triggerin mah post!!) hehehe

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Buddhism is a religion - it just doesn't have a personalized deity, which is no requirement for a religion. This is my point - there are many, many more ways of religious thinking than the traditional Abrahamic way that many in Western society assume. I think of some of the athiests in these forums as "Sunday-school athiests" because the God they don't beileve in is the God of Western Sunday-school and they aren't familiar with other concepts.

Personally, I'm comfortable using the word God but I use it to refer to that which is infinite, eternal and representing the organizational structure of the universe.

I don't think of it as being separate from the "natural" world and I don't see it as having an overall intellect or decision-making process that our monkey brains could recognize as such.

A student of religion would say that I'm a panthiest, where God is the whole of existence and the objects of we think of as the natural world are aspects of it.

I also don't believe in the supernatural - however, that doesn't mean I don't disbelieve in things like ghosts or mystical experiences because aspects of them are common enough in societies that there may be a common source we can't comprehend - however, if there are such things they'd be part and parcel of the "natural" world along with everything else. .

 

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I don't use the word God (unless I define it to my liking) because I stop a little earlier in your sentence than you do...

I don't think of it as being separate from the "natural" world and I don't see it as having an overall intellect or decision-making process.

To me, everything just is. Just what it all is I don't, and may never, know. That's okay. There may be an organizing intelligence that's unrecognizable to us. If so, I don't know what value there is in presuming that's the case... or not. We'll find out when we find out, if we find out.

As for ghosts, mystical experiences, miracles and UFOs, it's all about likelyhood. And here I'll defer to Richard Feynman for an explanation...

Some years ago I had a conversation with a layman about flying saucers — because I am scientific I know all about flying saucers! I said “I don’t think there are flying saucers”. So my antagonist said, “Is it impossible that there are flying saucers? Can you prove that it’s impossible?” “No”, I said, “I can’t prove it’s impossible. It’s just very unlikely”. At that he said, “You are very unscientific. If you can’t prove it impossible then how can you say that it’s unlikely?” But that is the way that is scientific. It is scientific only to say what is more likely and what less likely, and not to be proving all the time the possible and impossible. To define what I mean, I might have said to him, "Listen, I mean that from my knowledge of the world that I see around me, I think that it is much more likely that the reports of flying saucers are the results of the known irrational characteristics of terrestrial intelligence than of the unknown rational efforts of extra-terrestrial intelligence." It is just more likely. That is all.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

Actually Siddhartha Gautama was not religious,his way of teaching was agnostic.

He didn't teach about gods..He didn't teach belief or disbelief of them..He sought out the cure for human suffering.

He taught that knowledge and meditation was the key to enlightenment to atain Nirvana.

 

(Bleh, kept hitting enter and triggerin mah post!!) hehehe

---

Buddhism is a religion - it just doesn't have a personalized deity, which is no requirement for a religion. This is my point - there are many, many more ways of religious thinking than the traditional Abrahamic way that many in Western society assume. I think of some of the athiests in these forums as "Sunday-school athiests" because the God they don't beileve in is the God of Western Sunday-school and they aren't familiar with other concepts.

Personally, I'm comfortable using the word God but I use it to refer to that which is infinite, eternal and representing the organizational structure of the universe. I don't think of it as being separate from the "natural" world and I don't see it as having an overall intellect or decision-making process that our monkey brains could recognize as such. A student of religion would say that I'm a panthiest, where God is the whole of existence and the objects of we think of as the natural world are aspects of it.

I also don't believe in the supernatural - however, that doesn't mean I don't disbelieve in things like ghosts or mystical experiences because aspects of them are common enough in societies that there may be a common source we can't comprehend - however, if there are such things they'd be part and parcel of the "natural" world along with everything else. .

 

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I'm more than familiar with other concepts..

As i said before,his way of teaching was agnostic.

Buddhism is based on his teachings to find enlightenment, Enlightenment is to fully gain control over yourself,to find and know yourself fully..

 

 

Was jesus religious or was his teachings what the religion was based on?

He taught of the way to salvation.to give yourself to him to gain salvation..

 

one is nontheism and one is theism..

Buddhism could fit into more than one category, where christianity can fit into only one.

 

 

[irihapeti]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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about likelyhood

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have always found it a little bit odd that sometimes people (as you mention) want to proof or not proof a Faith

we either have a Faith or we do not. Like is implicit. We accept something in good (or bad) Faith. Or we do not. Acceptance doesnt require proof. Some people wont accept (or reject) anything without proof tho and thats ok. We all have different ways. So all good

+

about causality (:

like I have faith in the Easter Bunny. I am accepting of this. I have never seen the Easter Bunny tho myself personally. No matter how much late I try to keep awake

every Easter Sunday morning since forever there are Easter eggs by my bed when I wake up. which the Easter Bunny brings me

one time when I was 8 I said that I dont believe in the Easter Bunny anymore. bc am not any little kid anymore

next Sunday day was Easter Sunday. No easter eggs

was terrible. Was nearly the worst day of my whole life. Mum said Easter Bunny only comes if you have faith. No faith no eggs. And bc I got no faith I have to buy my own now from out my pocket money that I get from doing chores. Was even more horrible to think about have to do that. So I have faith again ever since. And I get easter eggs again ever since from the Easter Bunny. Even now today

is same Father Xmas. I have faith in him as well. And my faith is not wrong

every Xmas morning since forever is presents under the tree for me. Extra presents in addition to them given to me by family and friends. Extra given me by Father Xmas for try be good as best I can. I am not ever going to not have faith in Father Xmas. bc will be even a worse day of my whole life most likely (:

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is my faith in the Easter Bunny based on a false. like something that is not actual real??

what is true tho for me is: No faith and no easter eggs on Sunday morning. Which happened on the one time when I not have faith. And was terrible. and awful. and horrible !!!

[Madelaine McMasters]

irihapeti, your story made me grin from ear to ear.

Richard Dawkins, a proponent of both physical determinism and free will, was once asked if he saw that as an inconsistency in his views?

His reply?

"I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable."

Faith is like that.

My SL skybox (where sinners come to immolate) has a little "monster door" in it. My RL childhood bedroom (just a few steps away from me as I type this) also has one. When I was little, I was told that the bedroom monsters others found so scary were actually quite timid, and that they could only enter my bedroom through that little door (made of cardboard, just over a foot tall).

My only communication with the monsters was via exchanges of items through the door. Before going to bed, I'd open it (which revealed nothing but black paper taped to the wall) and leave a piece of candy. In the morning, I'd find a huge dust bunny. Then I'd leave a penny and find the innards of a broken clock. These exchanges went on until I moved away for college and marriage.

After my divorce, I moved back in with my parents, just in time to celebrate their 50th anniversary. Ouch. One night, feeling a little nostalgic, I opened the monster door. Nothing. I placed a penny behind the door and went to sleep. It was a silly thing to do, and I forgot about it. A few days later, I opened the door to retrieve the penny. In its place was a little pile of sawdust, American Cherry.

Dad's long gone, but in my dining room sits a very heavy table, capable of seating eight. Dad and I started work on it when I was in college, but we got distracted and the slab top gathered dust for years. It's done now, the last thing Dad and I worked on together. It's made entirely of... American Cherry.

Faith has its place.