llReturnObjectsByID and other headaches

[Valareos]

Firs,t let me explain what im trying to do. Im a rather good scripter, but even this is driving me crazy.

 

Basically, there is a sploder on my sim taht gives an item when people pay into it. Its a cheap item most throw away, but i am scripting a "Second chance" draw for it to give them some on-sim prizes.

since the item is transfer only, i figured id set up the second chance draw board for them to drop the item in, it checks that it is genuine, and rolls the number.

to do that, simply checking for inventoryname and inventorycreator will be enough.

but, llGetInventoryCreator() does not work, because the item in question contains scripts from multiple creators (LL isnt going to fix this bug because its in the "too hard" basket, and rightfully so)

 

so option b, is to rez the item out using llRezObject, and then use llGetObjectDetails() to check its Creator. This works fine.

 

Now i want to remove the object, but now im running into issues with llReturnObjectByID().  It doesnt work because, as stated in its text..

If the script is owned by an estate owner or manager, this function works for objects located on any parcel in the region. Otherwise, the script can return objects located over land owned by the owner of the script.
As a security measure, parcel owner, estate owner, and estate managers can not have their objects returned by this method, except when the object returns itself.

 so wait, if owned by estate owner or manager, works on entire estate.otherwise, can can return objects located by the owner of the script. and lets not forget that you have to grant permission for the script to return your items, so its only your items it will work on.. yet that security measure means... it doesnt work for an object retuning an object it has rezzed.

in effect, the llReturnObjectByID() only works if it is returning itself. 

I can simply have the second chacne make sure the name and description are right, then delete egg, but there is no way to stop someone from creating a box with that info, chanigng perms,and thowing as many as they want into it.

 

Anyone got any idea how to work around this?

[Cerise Sorbet]

You probably don't want to be rezzing scripted objects from random people anyway.

Maybe, instead of handing the item back and forth, you could do this like the game shows, and just ask. "You won half a stale pretzel! Want to keep it, or take your chances and see what's behind door number two?"

[Valareos]

the item doesnt get handed back and forth, once it is used it is deleted and it checks first to make sure that the name at least what its suppsoed to be. And when it rezzes, it will be immediatly removed (or thats plan) once it checks the ownership.

Thing is, i am not the creator of the spldoer, but i want to extend its use to get my sim members more interested in using it (because I earn 10% of the winnings). so im offering second chance items such as rental credit and such.

[Cerise Sorbet]

The item is handed back and forth. You gave it to the sploder winner, and it is transferrable, and you are having them give it back to you by dropping it in this second chance box.

You want you second chance box to rez objects it received, without knowing what they are.

So, you rez one of these unknown objects (which now belongs to you), and it's been scripted by someone to rez something nasty of its own in its on_rez event. And you are hoping that you can find it in your object_rez, grab its details, and return it before it rezzes its payload. And that's on land owned by the object owner, so autoreturn won't be cleaning up.

This really calls for an alt account with only a minimal rights to keep the device rezzed, and once you have that you can stick it on a parcel with regular 1 minute autoreturn.

 

 

[Valareos]

i have it on an alt account for that purpose. trouble is, the object will rez it with teh same group as teh second chance giver has, so id have to have the second chance giver in a different group, meanign it gets auto returned.

 

Its not ideal, but it wouldnt be an issue if the llGetInventoryCreator worked as it should instead of having to use llGetObjectDetails

[PeterCanessa Oh]

Please note that if there is a fee to play this sploder and there is a random chance of winning, or a fixed chance of winning a random amount, then it is contrary to LL's gaming policy and illegal.

 

[Cerise Sorbet]

Do you have any public rezzing parcels with short autoreturn on the region (the sort that's often provided for unpacking etc.)? If you could arrange it so that the test items are rezzed on that land, and it's not in the same group, then the region can take care of cleaning up for you.

 

[Qie Niangao]

---

Cerise Sorbet wrote:

Maybe, instead of handing the item back and forth, you could do this like the game shows, and just ask. "You won half a stale pretzel! Want to keep it, or take your chances and see what's behind door number two?"

---

I still think this is the most practical suggestion. The way it would work is for the sploder to hand out tokens of your own contrivance so llGetInventoryCreator would work on those tokens when used in your "second chance" gizmo to either cash-out for the original crap, or get a second chance to win less undesirable crap.

However you do it, Peter's caution should be noted. Any such second round contraption would be a pure chance gambling machine that would almost surely violate ToS. Nobody may notice, of course, and even if they did, no Linden may care enough to do anything about it.

(Incidentally, this is a technical puzzle of passing interest, but its practical utility is doubtful at best. If a crowd isn't stupid enough to play a sploder, they're unlikely to be lured by a contingent probability of "winning" something else.)

[Qie Niangao]

Another simple thought:

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Valareos wrote:

since the item is transfer only

---

It will be transfer-only by the time it's been owned by the winner and dropped into your object's inventory, but did you have mod permission on the item when you stocked it into the sploder? If so (and if you still like the "rez it first" approach), you could add a special purpose llDie script controlled by your second chance contraption.

[Valareos]

Seems there is a wee bit of confusion.

 

the sploder is not mine, ive gotten it from marketplace (its a grid wide sploder,) The secodn cahnce drawing takes no lindon, nor does it give lindon, so it is not illegal.

So, what that means is that the item it gives for entering into the sploder is not my creation, nor can i reprogram the sploder.  What i can do is use the transfer only item it gives that most people trash and turn it into something that can be used for my sim as a entry for a second chance drawing.  So i have to try to work around the limitations of LSL scripting, in this context.

Basically, i still just need a way to check an objects name and creator, to verify it is the object im willing to accept, so that i may the triggler the second chance draw.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

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Valareos wrote:

Seems there is a wee bit of confusion.

 

the sploder is not mine, ive gotten it from marketplace (its a grid wide sploder,) The secodn cahnce drawing takes no lindon, nor does it give lindon, so it is not illegal.

 

---

Yes, there is a bit of confusion - the sploder is yours, you got it form the marketplace.  If there is a fee to play it and there is a random factor in its payouts it is illegal to use because it is contrary to LL's gaming policy.  The second chance thing you're talking about takes a fee in the non-monetary form of an SL "thing of value" and, randomly, gives a similar prize.  As Qie said, LL almost certainly won't do anything about it but both machines are in breach of the rules (and possibly law although it's even less likely the RL police will do anything).

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_Regarding_Wagering_in_Second_Life  Just about every possible lottery, raffle, sploder and non-competitive game is illegal under this policy if there is any sort of fee to pllay it and any sort of prize.

I'm only really posting this to point out that you might be open to RL criminal charges and should get legal advice - LL have banned all sorts of things that didn't even have a random element while left other things completely wild.  Until someone takes them to court (!) I doubt they'll take any notice of their own policy (ie; it's there because the law says it has to be there but beyond that they ignore it).

 

[Valareos]

This is NOT a discussion on Lindon labs TOS.  but to be clear.. teh sploder conforms to Lindon Labs TOS (points out also every single skill game out there uses an element of chance... otherwise a skilled enough player can win every single time) and in fact this sploder in question (no i wont tell you what it is) conforms even more so because 100% of it goes back to players! Heck, the owner pays any super jackpot out of their OWN pocket, not from what players put in.

 

now, the second chance thign i AM scripting also conforms to the TOS because 1: EVERYONE who participates in the original Sploder gets the item, whether they win or lose. AND, ANYONE who has this item can use my second chance, reguardless if they got it on my sim or not.  Since it has no lindon paid in , and it pays no lindon out, it is allowed to have a random chance involved. And, as written on the TOS

 

If the "payout" involves objects that are more akin to novelty objects that cannot readily be converted into Linden dollars, real-world currency or value, then that activity will likely be permitted.

 Means i could charge people to use my second chance board, and still be within the TOS.. but im not doing that.

 

Now, please, lets get back to the original subject involving the SCRIPTING of being able to check the identity of an object in the circumstances outlined in my OP.  Thank you!

[LepreKhaun]

---

Valareos wrote:

Firs,t let me explain what im trying to do. Im a rather good scripter, but even this is driving me crazy.

 

Basically, there is a sploder on my sim taht gives an item when people pay into it. Its a cheap item most throw away, but i am scripting a "Second chance" draw for it to give them some on-sim prizes.

since the item is transfer only, i figured id set up the second chance draw board for them to drop the item in, it checks that it is genuine, and rolls the number.

... [and later also says]...

Thing is, i am not the creator of the spldoer, but i want to extend its use to get my sim members more interested in using it (because I earn 10% of the winnings). so im offering second chance items such as rental credit and such.

 

---

So, basically you're asking for free help with making gambling chips that can't be counterfeited and you plan to rake 10% of the action. Yes?

[Valareos]

---

LepreKhaun wrote:

---

Valareos wrote:

Firs,t let me explain what im trying to do. Im a rather good scripter, but even this is driving me crazy.

 

Basically, there is a sploder on my sim taht gives an item when people pay into it. Its a cheap item most throw away, but i am scripting a "Second chance" draw for it to give them some on-sim prizes.

since the item is transfer only, i figured id set up the second chance draw board for them to drop the item in, it checks that it is genuine, and rolls the number.

... [and later also says]...

Thing is, i am not the creator of the spldoer, but i want to extend its use to get my sim members more interested in using it (because I earn 10% of the winnings). so im offering second chance items such as rental credit and such.

 

---

So, basically you're asking for free help with making gambling chips that can't be counterfeited and you plan to rake 10% of the action. Yes?

---

My god people, do ANY of you actually READ what is being posted, or you just make half witted assumptions based on what other people write?

1. I have a sploder on my land (I DIDNT MAKE IT!) that is a grid wide sploder.  

2. It sells an Item. buying this item ALSO enters you into a chance to win lindons. (oh by the way, you dont HAVE to buy it to enter into the sploder)

3. Like every other freaking sploder out there, not everyone gets their money back, and some get more than their money back. But EVERYONE GOT THE ITEM THEY BOUGHT!

4. The items is one that many will just throw away. I am offering AS A SERVICE TO MY SIM a chance to turn this normally worthless item into a chance to win rental time on my sim, as a THANK YOU for supporting me by using the sploder that is on my sim!

5. Because the item in question has scripts in it from different creators, using llGetInventoryCreator() WILL NOT WORK! it returns a NULL KEY

6. Rezzing the object with llRezObject() and using llGetObjectDetails() DOES work, but llReturnObjectByID() is programmed not to work with any object other than the object the script is in!

7: Rezzing with lLRezObject() is limited to 10 meters, so I can not rez it onto a parcel that returns objects every minute

 

Now, if you people who are supposed to represent the brightest and best scriptors in SL are not willing to assist because you are fixated with whether something is "gambling", then go on Marketplace, search for every sploder, skill game, or anything else that takes lindons and pays out lindons and AR every last one of them. But continuing to ignore the request of me in my OP to argue about my "violation" of Lindon Labs Rules which btw is not YOUR responsibility to enforce will result it me takign it has harrassment and I WILL take proper procedures needed to address it.

 

Bottom line is, i got a program that takes an IN GAME ITEM, and gives an IN GAME ITEM.  Is there ANYONE there that is willing to assist with this?

[Valareos]

And before any of you say the "only use of this is for gambling" The same programming code can be used for the following

 

As an update box: Users hand in an outdated object, script checks that creator name, object name and description match, then give back an updated version of teh object

As a Claim Vendor: Person wins a prize from a competition they entered. th3 Host can give them the claim ticket as an object, and they can then get the prize from the claim vendor

As a forge: Person places in several items in, and outputs a item forged from the ingrediants

[LepreKhaun]

---

Valareos wrote:

---

LepreKhaun wrote:

---

Valareos wrote:

Firs,t let me explain what im trying to do. Im a rather good scripter, but even this is driving me crazy.

 

Basically, there is a sploder on my sim taht gives an item when people pay into it. Its a cheap item most throw away, but i am scripting a "Second chance" draw for it to give them some on-sim prizes.

since the item is transfer only, i figured id set up the second chance draw board for them to drop the item in, it checks that it is genuine, and rolls the number.

... [and later also says]...

Thing is, i am not the creator of the spldoer, but i want to extend its use to get my sim members more interested in using it (because I earn 10% of the winnings). so im offering second chance items such as rental credit and such.

 

---

So, basically you're asking for free help with making gambling chips that can't be counterfeited and you plan to rake 10% of the action. Yes?

---

My god people, do ANY of you actually READ what is being posted, or you just make half witted assumptions based on what other people write?

...

---

I made no assumptions based on anything except what you wrote yourself and was simply asking for clarification is all. And as far as ToS violations, that would be your problem if it was and, frankly, I don't care one way or the other if you get into trouble trying to get around the rules.

 

But neither am I inclined to volunteer to help you make more lindens with this scheme, whatever other "legitimate" uses you might claim for it at this point.

[LepreKhaun]

---

Valareos wrote:

And before any of you say the "only use of this is for gambling" The same programming code can be used for the following

 

As an update box: Users hand in an outdated object, script checks that creator name, object name and description match, then give back an updated version of teh object

As a Claim Vendor: Person wins a prize from a competition they entered. th3 Host can give them the claim ticket as an object, and they can then get the prize from the claim vendor

As a forge: Person places in several items in, and outputs a item forged from the ingrediants

---

No comment on this really. Knowing how frail the forum software is, I just wanted to preserve the above for future reference is all.

[Valareos]

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LepreKhaun wrote:

---

Valareos wrote:

---

LepreKhaun wrote:

---

Valareos wrote:

Firs,t let me explain what im trying to do. Im a rather good scripter, but even this is driving me crazy.

 

Basically, there is a sploder on my sim taht gives an item when people pay into it. Its a cheap item most throw away, but i am scripting a "Second chance" draw for it to give them some on-sim prizes.

since the item is transfer only, i figured id set up the second chance draw board for them to drop the item in, it checks that it is genuine, and rolls the number.

... [and later also says]...

Thing is, i am not the creator of the spldoer, but i want to extend its use to get my sim members more interested in using it (because I earn 10% of the winnings). so im offering second chance items such as rental credit and such.

 

---

So, basically you're asking for free help with making gambling chips that can't be counterfeited and you plan to rake 10% of the action. Yes?

---

My god people, do ANY of you actually READ what is being posted, or you just make half witted assumptions based on what other people write?

...

---

I made no assumptions based on anything except what you wrote yourself and was simply asking for clarification is all. And as far as ToS violations, that would be your problem if it was and, frankly, I don't care one way or the other if you get into trouble trying to get around the rules.

 

But neither am I inclined to volunteer to help you make more lindens with this scheme, whatever other "legitimate" uses you might claim for it at this point.

---

rubs his head. What makes you think i make any lindons on it when the second chance draw doesnt use lindons at all whihc is the only thing I am programming, the other item in question already exists. Im simply programming something extra using its output

[LepreKhaun]

---

Valareos wrote:

---

rubs his head. What makes you think i make any lindons on it when the second chance draw doesnt use lindons at all whihc is the only thing I am programming, the other item in question already exists. Im simply programming something extra using its output

---

So, what part of  "to get my sim members more interested in using it (because I earn 10% of the winnings)" have we misinterpreted?

[Valareos]

---

LepreKhaun wrote:

---

Valareos wrote:

---

rubs his head. What makes you think i make any lindons on it when the second chance draw doesnt use lindons at all whihc is the only thing I am programming, the other item in question already exists. Im simply programming something extra using its output

---

So, what part of  "

to 

get my sim members more interested in using it (because I earn 10% of the winnings)

" have we misinterpreted?

---

The original sploder (one that gives the item that im wanting them to use for the second chance) rewards both sim owners, and players. now, the item they get costs 50 lindon and it entes them into the sploder.  What i am doing is taking that item, and allowign them a seecond chacne drawing, the smallest prize being a 50 lidnon credit for sim rental. Now, IF the players end up winning ,the sploder rewards me as sim owner 10% of that. THis works no different than spldoers that  that exists in many sims, except it gives a physical item.

Basically it means im taking an item that they bought for 50 lindon, and giving them back at least 50 lindon worth of rent for it. again, completly legit

[PeterCanessa Oh]

---

Valareos wrote:

...Now, if you people who are supposed to represent the brightest and best scriptors in SL are not willing to assist because you are fixated with whether something is "gambling", then go on Marketplace, search for every sploder, skill game, or anything else that takes lindons and pays out lindons and AR every last one of them. But continuing to ignore the request of me in my OP to argue about my "violation" of Lindon Labs Rules which btw is not YOUR responsibility to enforce will result it me takign it has harrassment and I WILL take proper procedures needed to address it.

---

I was revisiting this thread to concentrate on the issue of identifying 'who won what' and contribute a different approach.

As you point out it is not our responsibility to enforce LL's policies - which is one reason we don't go through all the infringing things they allow on the marketplace and AR them.  Neither are we obliged to assist anyone, let alone those we believe to be doing wrong.  Refusing to help does not constitute harassment and nor does explaining such refusal.

A lot of criminals are bullies though and bullies do like to threaten.  As you threaten so charmingly I have changed my mind and look forward to the result of the 'proper procedures' you intend to follow as I now affirm that I will continue to ignore your request.

 

 

 

[Valareos]

---

PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

---

Valareos wrote:

...Now, if you people who are supposed to represent the brightest and best scriptors in SL are not willing to assist because you are fixated with whether something is "gambling", then go on Marketplace, search for every sploder, skill game, or anything else that takes lindons and pays out lindons and AR every last one of them. But continuing to ignore the request of me in my OP to argue about my "violation" of Lindon Labs Rules which btw is not YOUR responsibility to enforce will result it me takign it has harrassment and I WILL take proper procedures needed to address it.

---

I was revisiting this thread to concentrate on the issue of identifying 'who won what' and contribute a different approach.

As you point out it is not our responsibility to enforce LL's policies - which is one reason we don't go through all the infringing things they allow on the marketplace and AR them.  

Neither are we obliged 

to assist anyone, let alone those we believe to be doing wrong.  Refusing to help does not constitute harassment and nor does explaining such refusal.

A lot of criminals are bullies though and bullies do like to threaten.  As you threaten so charmingly I have changed my mind and look forward to the result of the 'proper procedures' you intend to follow as I now affirm that I will continue to ignore your request.

 

 

 

---

That is of course yoru right, but it is also my right to defend myself from harrasment, especially those who after several pleas to return tot he issue in the OP, refused to do so, in violition of forum guidelines. How woudl you feel if your tryign to program something (that you dont want tor elease code for because it may be somethign wroth packaging to sell to other scripters) and your beign told you are doing things illegally,a dn then sit and argue the point of why its illegal,w ithout ever seeing the actual coding yrou dealign with?

 

I suimply ran out of patience and resorted to threat only after calm pleas apparently failed.

 

You say that you dont appreciate bullies. I was feelign quite bullied wiht my thread being hijacked and turned into me ahving to defend myself.

[LepreKhaun]

---

Valareos wrote:

---

PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

---

Valareos wrote:

...Now, if you people who are supposed to represent the brightest and best scriptors in SL are not willing to assist because you are fixated with whether something is "gambling", then go on Marketplace, search for every sploder, skill game, or anything else that takes lindons and pays out lindons and AR every last one of them. But continuing to ignore the request of me in my OP to argue about my "violation" of Lindon Labs Rules which btw is not YOUR responsibility to enforce will result it me takign it has harrassment and I WILL take proper procedures needed to address it.

---

I was revisiting this thread to concentrate on the issue of identifying 'who won what' and contribute a different approach.

As you point out it is not our responsibility to enforce LL's policies - which is one reason we don't go through all the infringing things they allow on the marketplace and AR them.  

Neither are we obliged 

to assist anyone, let alone those we believe to be doing wrong.  Refusing to help does not constitute harassment and nor does explaining such refusal.

A lot of criminals are bullies though and bullies do like to threaten.  As you threaten so charmingly I have changed my mind and look forward to the result of the 'proper procedures' you intend to follow as I now affirm that I will continue to ignore your request.

 

 

 

---

That is of course yoru right, but it is also my right to defend myself from harrasment, especially those who after several pleas to return tot he issue in the OP, refused to do so, in violition of forum guidelines. How woudl you feel if your

tryign to program something (that you dont want tor elease code for because it may be somethign wroth packaging to sell to other scripters)

and your beign told you are doing things illegally,a dn then sit and argue the point of why its illegal,w ithout ever seeing the actual coding yrou dealign with?

 

I suimply ran out of patience and resorted to threat only after calm pleas apparently failed.

 

You say that you dont appreciate bullies. I was feelign quite bullied wiht my thread being hijacked and turned into me ahving to defend myself.

---

Please continue, your postings become more insightful each time your hole deepens.

[Qie Niangao]

I tried practical suggestions earlier and got no response, so I won't make that mistake again.

Meanwhile, though, I dug into one of the various bug reports on this and found this comment by Kelly:

 

• For all existing inventory items the 'base creator' data is lost. The creator ID on the item is set to null when the object is taken into inventory if any contents have different creators and the original creator data is not saved.

Thing is, I'm either not understanding what he's saying, or I'm not seeing what he saw. I fill an object "A" with an assortment of inventory contents from different creators, take "A" into my inventory, and sure enough, in its properties its creator is "(unknown / multiple)". I put that item into another object, "B", and yeah, still "(unknown / multiple)" creator when A's properties are viewed from inside B's inventory. Now, however, if I pull A from B's inventory and rez it on the ground, the original creator's name reappears, I am therefore unclear what Kelly meant by "the original creator data" "is set to null" and "is not saved".

I might be able to attend the Server User Group this Tuesday, and Kelly is sometimes there, so I might be able to ask what this means, but I won't bug him unless somebody else confirms that this happens, and that there's no obvious interpretation of Kelly's comment consistent with this.

(I'm hesitant because, as I was testing this, I realized that all kinds of things would be broken if the world behaved the way I was interpreting Kelly's statement, so I must be stuck on a misinterpretion.)

[Valareos]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

I tried practical suggestions earlier and got no response, so I won't make that mistake again.

Meanwhile, though, I dug into one of the various bug reports on this and found

this comment

by Kelly:

 

• For all existing inventory items the 'base creator' data is lost. The creator ID on the item is set to null when the object is taken into inventory if any contents have different creators and the original creator data is not saved.

Thing is, I'm either not understanding what he's saying, or I'm not seeing what he saw. I fill an object "A" with an assortment of inventory contents from different creators, take "A" into my inventory, and sure enough, in its properties its creator is "(unknown / multiple)". I put that item into another object, "B", and yeah, still "(unknown / multiple)" creator when A's properties are viewed from inside B's inventory. Now, however, if I pull A from B's inventory and rez it on the ground,

the original creator's name reappears

, I am therefore unclear what Kelly meant by "the original creator data" "is set to null" and "is not saved".

I might be able to attend the Server User Group this Tuesday, and Kelly is sometimes there, so I might be able to ask what this means, but I won't bug him unless somebody else confirms that this happens, and that there's no obvious interpretation of Kelly's comment consistent with this.

(I'm hesitant because, as I was testing this, I realized that all kinds of things would be broken if the world behaved the way I was interpreting Kelly's statement, so I must be stuck on a

mis

interpretion.)

---

actually i did read your post, and have finally managed to get your idea to work. it is very convoluted though. and i do appreciate the idea of it.  Please forgive me for not achnowledging your helpful contribution earlier, but i wanted to try to get your idea to work before commenting back about it

 

Way i got it working right now is the  the Second Chance object actually sends it to a second object set at the very edge of my land that is next to a 32 meter plot using an alt account. that object does the rezzing onto the small 32 meter plot that has a one minute auto return.  This ends up letting it work, but i rather have a less.. complex method of doing it.

When i decide to expand this for doing forging work, it wont be an issue because all items and scripts will be of my own creation (its a fantasy medival rp sim, so, ability to actualy craft items is a big part of my plans for it

 

I did read that comment and couldt figure out the meaning of it either, because i can get the creator name as long as the item is rezzed... so the information cant be really lost...