Valareos

So your not SELLING a private sim, your renting it out. In which case your in the wrong forum for it I believe

Thank you for that! Using the llGetCameraPos to get starting position, then a calculate of ending position based on the lLGetCameraRot perfect, thank you!

I have seen this work on another sim, and wish to use it on my sim. However, even after scouring the lsl, i cant figure out for the life of me how it was done. Basically, they had a hud that, when you focused your camera on them, was able to read, at the very least, their Avatar username. Can someone direct me to the right command (or set of commands) to do this? Thank you

you would thing so, yess. but the wagering policy allows for a game that recieves no money from players, pays money out, and uses chance can still be concidered a wagering machine. that was to stop :free casinos popping up where you can buy game credit off of sl

Others may have their opinion on it but.. Yes, Bingo would be a game of chance. It involved both random cards, and random ball selection. So you have to look at the next question Does the game you referring to pay out lindens or anything of value? If No, not only does it not meet the requirements for a wagering machine, but it also fails the definition of a Skill Game as it does not pay out lindens. If Yes, then question becomes, Does it accept lindens in payment? If Yes, then this would be labled as a wagering machine. If No, then LL may allow it as there is no cost by the player, and it also fails the definition of a skill game as it does not accept lindens, and as such should be fine to use.

In the end, still becomes how Linden Labs interprest,s and as others have pointed out, they making it vauge and requiring US to get legal advice if we want to create a game. One should however be able to see if their game blatently fails the idea of a skill test vs game of chance. and trouble still comes to is on whos side does game of chacne apply? to the game mechanics, or to view of player. Here is an example. A person creates a Bugz type game. They have it that what shows up in the game is based on an algorithm that uses a seed to determine what numbers are displayed, and what numbers you get in roll. Game is won IF you clear off the board. Each seed is designed so game is always winnable if you make the right move, but you dont know the moves that will come up before hand. WHen initialising the game, the owner can CHOOSE to use a random seed to start, or put in thier own. This way, the random seed does not becomes a material part, as if you take it out the game still functions. After every game, the seed changes by a preprogrammed amount, not determined by chance, but an amount hidden by the player and owner. What happens is two games with the same starting seed then play exactly the same for eacha nd every round after, and that it becomes the player who develops a better strategy that can complete the game. If you clear all, you recieve a set payout For the game, Nothing is random, and whether you win or lose depends entirely on the player and his strategy. To the view of the player, the numbers that appear that he has to clear appears random. Does the above constitute a game of chance, or skill? It all becomes a matter of intepretation

Durandir, I agree. Interesting thing though, the toppers wouldnt be against the new rules, because they dont influence game play, only payout, which is triggered on a win. If those toppers had a chance to give something less than 1x bet back, it would fall foul.. SInce the toppers can be removed and not have any impact on the game, they would not be concidered material

In the end.. A game set up as a Skill game has to go through the vetitng process, and LL makes the calls. My flow chart is better used for game developers who want to make sure their game is SL compliant and dont need to be classified as a skilled gaming. If one was to look at their rules, A completly random roulette wheel, that accepted no money, but gave out no transfer trinkets, would be allowed, because it does not classify as a wagering machine, and doesnt count as a skiil game because it doesnt accept money. These discussions are good so people can know what they CAN do, especially now as us residents are out of the ability to put one or two games on our sims

Found it.. will give quote and reference. this was found in an intellectual property handbook it descrubes on what constitutes infringement, but it states about patented inventions "o..r a material or apparatus for use in practicing a patented process, consituting a material part of the invention..." It then goes on to describes that "The component must be material, that is, not inessential" (INtellectual Property: A Reference Handbook, pg 39-40). http://books.google.com.au/books?id=DAheQ2Dl2NQC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=%22material+part%22+legalese&source=bl&ots=uhHwvVwr-w&sig=GFdRzNrdupmzNIo0Per4BZcl0cY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nzvaU4-bC8Li8AXcp4GYDg&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22material%20part%22%20legalese&f=false By this, any process or component that is necissary for the game to work (to include seed generators) is concidered a Material Part. and the rules very clearly state that a material part cant use chance. and since a game maker will NOT install something that is not needed for it to work, by simplifying it to any part resolves the legalese aspect

WHere I would classify a game as not having Randomness as a Material Part Game set up: Random Seed Generation Game Play: Two player with same seed have identical game setups Game End: Player with more skill will score better. Im trying to find somewhere anythign that gives a proper legal translation to legalese

Your right, the entire thing comes down to what it means by Material part. And it does come down to what LL defines it, which they have refused to for a long time. WHen you look at any other legal document that uses it, its usually in reference to terms and conditions being a maeterial part, or that another policy is a material pat of the agreement. Usually meanis if you sign one your singign hte other. Their use of it here is a bit out of the way actually. I think we need to look at it this way, and why I replaced material part with part for ease of reading. 1: Is there any skill game out there, that uses random generators for something other than part of the game play? Beyond a random prize, id say no, there is no reason to do so, other than setting up the initial conditions, but that is not part of game play itself, that is, as Guy showed, similar to dealing out a deck of cards in a bridge game. If the game uses randomness during game play, two people who have the same initial conditions set, will have 2 very different games. This is where the idea of the randomness being part of the gameplay. Would it help if I clarified that my intent on saying being a part of the game deals with having randomness during game play? that is what i read being material part as being.

To reiterate a previous post (found http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Skill-Gaming-Policy-Thread/m-p/2789988#M190233) The following flow chart has been created using linden labs policies and their writing. it is split into 2 parts. First has to deal is if the game is concidered to be wagering, which linden labs makes a clear stand on. Second part uses the definition of skill gaming that has not changed. For sake of transparency, I will also point out how different things were defined. Remember, in the end its LINDON LABS that make final decisions, not me. If you have a skill game that you believe qualifies, you still have to submit it through the Creator Applications. LL will make final choice. This flow chart though is more for those who have a game they wish to have on their sim, to see if they indeed do need to get it licensed or not. As much as there is disagreement on what qualifies as a skill game under the new rules, this is more to clarify what does NOT need to be submitted, based on LL own policies. Does the gameplay rely in ANY PART on random chance or involve a real life sporting event? If Yes, go to 2, if No, go to 5 Does the game pay lindens or anything of value? If Yes, go to 3. If No, go to 5 Does the game have the ability to accept Lindens if Yes, STOP! GAME IS GAMBLING! DO NOT USE If No, go to 4 The game may be allowed, but Linden Labs has final say. Go to 5 Does the game utilize an in world object to play? If Yes, go to 5. If No go to 8 Does the game require or Permit Lindens to play? If Yes go to 6. If No go to 8 Does the game pay out in lindens? If Yes go to 7. If No go to 8 Is the game legal to use under US and International Law? If Yes, go to 9 if No, DO NOT USE! GAME IS ILLEGAL Did you say Yes to steps 5-8? If Yes, GAME IS SUBJECT TO SKILL GAMING POLICY. If No, GAME IS NOT SUBJECT TO SKILL GAMING POLICY. ENJOY! The following definitions were used for items not clear. Implemented through an In-World Object: Using a definition from dictionary .com, implimented means "to fulfill; perform; carry out". Using this definition, the above flowchart assumes that if an inworld object needs to be used in anyway, it is Implimented through an In-World Object Material Part: using references in other legal documentation where this phrase is used, this flow chart takes it to mean an integral part, or any part that is part of the gameplay itself. If you believe that a part of your system that uses random generators is not an integral part, and it is not disqualified as being a skill game under the rest of the definitions, then just submit it to LL and let them make a decision on it. they after all the end result. The above is meant as a guide. As with anything, when in doubt, send a trouble ticket

As for going back to material part. Here is an example... There are many (MANY) Games, that after your done playing the skill part, you dont have a high enough score to win. Invariably, they come down to some event at end, (picking a bonus, or random bonus roll) that will make a final determination if you win.. or dont win. even by YOUR defiition, this makes it a game of chance, as there is a PRIMARY function of the game that CAN determine if you win or not. and the term "Material Part" in legal terms means belonging to the whole.. Here are a few copies of other legal documentation that make up YOUR PLEDGE OF AN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS CONTRACT AND ACCEPTANCE OF THE RIGHTS, DUTIES, AND LIMITATIONS EMBODIED IN IT, IS A MATERIAL PART OF THE LEGAL CONSIDERATION THAT THE SELLER REQUIRES FROM YOU AS A CONDITION OF SALE. and this one For further information, please refer to Clearwire's Acceptable Use Policy, posted at http://www.clear.com/legal/aup, which forms a material part of, and is incorporated by reference within, these Terms. and this NORTHERN PRIDE llc WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF YOUR USE OF THIS WEBSITE. THE DISCLAIMERS AND LIMITATIONS CONTAINED IN THIS PARAGRAPH ARE A MATERIAL PART OF OUR AGREEMENT TO PROVIDE THIS WEBSITE TO YOU. As can be seen from above, when term Material Part is used, it is dealing with a prime functionality, an integral part. If your game accepts money, gives money, and a random generator forms an integeral part of the game (such as the numbers you get to select from) then it is a material part. And in NONE of your "YOU ARE WRONG" arguments did you ever give a real clear rason as to why, and to continue to say im wrong and berate me in this channel, and to tell others not to listen to me because of your opinion, is also in violation of LL TOS.

but... Linden DOES define what wagering is.. and it is expresly forbidden in that context, and the first 2 points of the flow chart deal SPECIFICALLY with it... ANd just because i didnt write "Material part" and shorted int to part, which is what it means in context of sentence doesnt make it wrong.. Not to mention, you have added nothing to the conversation, gave no evidence to why i was wrong, even though i provided evidence to my post itself. and instead goes to declare me an idiot. Mate, get over yourself, and if you are not going to give any thoughtful, rationalized response , then dont say anything at all. as stated before, Linden Labs policy on Wagering (which is a generic term they use for gambling to cover more than just conventional gambling terms0 is http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0" alt=":smileytongue:" title="Smiley Tongue" />olicy_Regarding_Wagering_in_Second_Life Very black and white there It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life® environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games: Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner,OR Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events, AND provide a payout in Linden Dollars (L$)OR Any real-world currency or thing of value. The first 4 steps check THIS first, before dealing with the Skill Gaming, because if it is in violation of above, it supercedes the Skill Gaming Policy.

Guy, how can you say its wrong when it is PRECICELY, almost verbatum, what the Policies state? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_Regarding_Wagering_in_Second_Life Very black and white there It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life® environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games: Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner,OR Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events, AND provide a payout in Linden Dollars (L$)OR Any real-world currency or thing of value. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Policy and check there under define terms for skill games “Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law.What your saying im wrong about, comes straight from lindens mouth, so to speak. Please check your own references ebfore throwing accusations . As far as that important "Material" [art you talk about.. It MEANS in whole or material part.. it means exactly what i wrote.. THat No part of the game itself can use randomness

FInally going over the legalese.. the wording IS straight foward, THink what is confusing the issue is people putting their own definition into it. Remember, this is a legal document, and logic statements such as AND or OR have very specific meanings in logic. So to run down: For compliance by,,, User: Must be over 19 AND Can legally agree to the policy AND live somewhere where skill gaming is legal AND accessing the skill gaming from somewhere where skill gaming is legal AND are legally old enough to participate in Skill Gaming where they live. If any of the above can not be met, then you can not play Skill Games Legally (AAN Operators require ALL to be met) Operators: Must have an operator licence recieved and paid for through Linden Labs AND Operate only Approved Skill Games sold by Approved Creators Maintain full compliance of the Policy AND Maintain Accurate information about yourself, the games you run, and where you run them If any of the above can not be met, then you can not run skill games legally (AND operator requires ALL to be met) Creators: Must have a Creator License recieved and paid for through Linden Labs AND Sell only Approved Skill Games AND Maintain full compliance of the Policy AND Maintain Accurate information about yourself and games you sell AND Prefix all Skill Games with [slgaming] AND ensure that llTransferLindenDollars is used for outgoing transactions and not llGiveMoney AND Verify each purchaser is a Licensed Operator If any of the above can not be met, then you can not sell skill games legally (AND operator requires ALL to be met) Now, he quesiton of what is Skill Gaming is the harder one to deal with. but need to be looked at in the same legal framework, and so first off one need to know what really constituted Gambling. According to LL Gaming Policy A Game constituted gambling if (Relies on random chance OR Real Life Sporting Events) AND (Provides a Payout in Linden $ OR anything of Value) if a game meets any of the above numbered criteria, it is concidered gambling (OR and AND operrators combine so its 1 AND 2 have to be met to be seen as gambling, but in 1, it is one or the other to concider 1 to be true) This is one most get into confusion with, and several examples have been given, so I will try to give a brief synapse of different ones Second Life Racing: Though there is a payout for winning (a purse), it is not based on a REAL LIFE sporting event. This means ON SIM events and sports can be participated in and betted on and not be concidered wagering under the current definition. The rules do clarify that betting exchanges are not allowed, so any bets made would be betting done between individals, not between one person and an organization. I wouldnt risk pushing the rules though, stick to racing your own cars and horses and getting a purse for winning and rules say you should be fine. Dice, Card and Casino Games (Includes Board Games, Casino Games, Slot Machines): If any of these games offer a payout in lindens or ANYTHING of value, and uses a random number generator to determine outcome, it may be concidered wagering, EVEN IF THERE IS NO PAYMENT ACCEPTED. However, Linden Labs has stated that if the the game is truly free and does not take in any concideration, then it may be allowed. On the same line, that if the "payout" is a novelty item or something that can not be readily converted to lindens, then it also may be allowed. This statement here means that If the game accepts nothing of value, and pays out Lindens, or accepts Lindens but pays nothing of value, then it may be allowed, even though it meets the technical definition of wagering. From there, Now we go into what is defined as Skill Game. According to Linden Labs a Skill Game Is implemented through an Inworld Object AND Outcome is determined by Skill, and not using chance in whole or in part. AND Requires or Permits Lindens to Play AND Provides Payout in Lindens AND is legally authorized nu US and International Law They further go on to clarify point 3 by saying that games that Residents do not pay to play are not concidered under the Skill Gaming Policy What is interesting to note is that the definition of a skill game has not changed... Most "Skill Games" Out there claim to be skill because you can affect the outcome. But as what point 2 says, a skill game can NOT USE CHANCE AT ALL! In other words, most skill games are not compliant right now! I surmise these changes are because of that, this was the only way to police this. Ive played games that, though have a randomness, are true skill games, like Dragonz or Piratez, where if you are good enough, you can win every single time. So for Any skill game using any portion of chance, such as dice rolling, random numbers(even those that will guarentee you can match at least 1 each time!) is in violation of the original skill game policy. Funny enough though, random payouts are not disallowed, so those jackpot spinner addons are legit, because they arnt the game itself, and if you hit them, you get at least your bet back every time. THe last one I would like to point out is Traffic Generation Games. This one will be murkey and open to interpretation, but the way to think about itis this.. 1. Players are allowed to pay for traffic. This is mostly done through one or more objects that verify that a person is there. They also can choose how to pay them, from a flat rate for beign there for a certain time, or a variable one, as well assign different rates for different people. 2. Most Traffic Generation games have the bulk of their profit come from land owners who pay to have the generator on thier site, not from the players. 3. Most Traffic Generation games do not require the purchase of additional items to participate, though these items may be purchased to access higher rates of pay for supporting the generation game in general. In most cases, a person can participate in these games and use ONLY the funds generated from the game to get these upgrades. 4. This these games are not gambling, or skill games as they do not rely on chance (everyone gets something every time), the player does not pay lindens to play each round (though they may buy upgrades that give advantage over other players). These two points alone mean they are not gambling, and not skill. So in conclusion, one can follow a simple flowchart and see if their game falls under either category. Does the game rely in ANY PART on random chance or involve a real life sporting event? If Yes, go to 2, if No, go to 5 Does the game pay lindens or anything of value? If Yes, go to 3. If No, go to 5 Does the game have the ability to accept Lindens if Yes, STOP! GAME IS GAMBLING! DO NOT USE If No, go to 4 The game may be allowed, but Linden Labs has final say. Go to 5 Does the game utilize an in world object to play? If Yes, go to 5. If No go to 8 Does the game require or Permit Lindens to play? If Yes go to 6. If No go to 8 Does the game pay out in lindens? If Yes go to 7. If No go to 8 Is the game legal to use under US and International Law? If Yes, go to 9 if No, DO NOT USE! GAME IS ILLEGAL Did you say Yes to steps 5-8? If Yes, GAME IS SUBJECT TO SKILL GAMING POLICY. If No, GAME IS NOT SUBJECT TO SKILL GAMING POLICY. ENJOY! Bringing this back to the Racing from the gambling side, it does depend on what the term "Implimented" If it means that it has to be initiated through an inworld object (pay an object, play the object) then Racing isnt subject to these rules. But if it means utilizing an in world object, it may well be subject to these rules as you utilize a vehicle. I am using dictionary.com definition of "to fulfill; perform; carry out:" to say that yes it does have to comply. However, as the vehicle itself doesnt accept payment and such, it in itself is not under the rules. You will find that the combined interpretation means that the race course itself will fall under the rules, but the vehicles being used do not. A racer is the userof the race track, using their own vehicle.The sim owner will need to be an approved Operator. Hopeftully this didnt raise more questions than it answered.

Your missing the point of the token idea..reason most token systems fail is there is a system to convert BACK to lindens, which isnt allowed. and they way the wording is, a machine cant accept lindens AND pay out lindens.. But it can do either or.. (qualifying AND statement) An object that may take lindens and not pay out lindens would be paying a lucky dip, and getting a prize that is no transfer. No im not advocating getting aroudn the system, I got a sim that uses an internal currency with NO gambling involved, but still may fall astray to the rules if wording isnt carefully observed.

you are right on that of course, Allow me to clarify, that point is that there is NO cash prizes being awarded, nor items that can be traded in for cash. Example would be winning more tokens to continue playing, but have NO way of withdrawing those tokens, nor can you transfer them to another player.

I would just like to clairify if I understand this entirely, as well as give my specific circumstance to see if I am indeed compliant. 1: As I am not a US resident, and can not comply with the application requirements, I am uneligible to be an Operator. 2: As I am not an operator, I am required to remove any games that have a pay to play option. This means any game that can be potentially set to pay to play or has an optional betting component.. I can not simply set the game to free play, or turn off the betting option in settings. 3: Any game that does not require lindens to play is allowed, even if they pay out lindens. (covers most of the traffic generating games) 4: Using tokens as a "replacement" for lindens is allowed, if, and only if, those tokens are not transferrable between players, and can not be converted to linden, or objects that can be sold for lindens. I am allowed to charge for the initial purchase of said tokens under this system. (this becomes a donation system, NOT a gambling system) If an official can say yes or no to these points, it will clear up a lot of confusion. Thank you

Tropaz Medieval Fantasy RP Sims is needing an experienced Public Officer to work with the Owner and the Senior Manager to increase interest and profitability of the sims. A successful applicant will need to be able to do the following 1. Perform duties as a Publicist. We need to be able to not only attract new visitors, but new residents to our sim. We need those that are willing to stay, regardless if they are renting. 2. Perform duties as a Finanical Advisor. The sims need to reach a point where they, on their own, at least break even. As this is the largest portion of our expenses, doing such will increase the overall profitability of the sims when other sources of income are taken into account. This duty will go hand in hand with the duty as a Publicist. An applicant will be hired for a one month trial period, paid weekly. If aftter this month, the Owner and Sim Manager are happy with the performance, a longer contract will be discussed. Those who wish to apply, please send a Notecard in game to Valareos titled Public Officer Application: , and put your name, companies you currently or previously worked for, your expected pay, and a quick message about yourself and why you should be selected for this job. We will accept both SL based and RL based resumes, as long as they can be verified. All applications will be considered, but we reserve the right to make a choice based on several factors, to include rate of pay, in making our decision. Thank you in advance Valareos Draconrouge Autarch of Tropaz

thanks for the quick reply

Will LL allow you to purchase a private homestead (complete transfer) if you do not already own a full region? I know they dont sell it to you directly without one

I can do this for you. Sent you a message in game so we can discuss if i understand your needs right, and what are you paying for the service

Just to check, these are people selling entire private regions? transferring ownership of that region to another? I personally cant afford 1000 dollars in one shot to get mine from LL, but paying 200-300 for one? i can do that... but im wanting to make sure i know what it is really doing

Alicia Sautereau wrote: Valareos wrote: Wandering Soulstar wrote: While Tier rental is a great idea, and there have been many individuals in the past that have done this, you really should get your numbers correct. Your example of 1/4 sim costing $125 in tier is incorrect. 1/2 a sim (32.768 sqm) costs $125 a month, 1/4 sim costs only $75 a month, so by your numbers it is $26 a month more expensive to rent tier from you. Actually, my numbers are coorrect. if you look, its just over 1/4 sim, which means you normally would have to pay the next tier level, that is the 1/2 sim level, to get that square meters The value comes in that your able to get the square meters you need without triggering the tier increase you normally woudl get from Lindon Labs Going by logic they would just up their own tier level to $75 a month for 16,384sqm and get the remaining 512 from you for: 175 * 13 / 3 = l$759 per month = $3,40 USD So their monthly bill would be $75 (LL) + $3,40 (you) a month instead of your $101,32 and save $22,92! You`re welcome (rest aswell ) Exactly the service works well for those who need a bit more land, but dont want to trigger the next tier level. THough there are some levels where its cheaper to get the entire lot from me.