high poly = high lag?

[Drongle McMahon]

Nice. Here is another (not very accurately aligned) example. Just to show how careful people will have to be about compatability, I took a picture of the same thing with Advanced Lighting Model on and off :smileysurprised:

[Charli Infinity]

they look just like normal flat textured prims though... kind of dissapointing

[Charli Infinity]

and it would take 3 maps for 1 object? That means more to render and more lag? are maps like textures?

[Chic Aeon]

@ Codewarrior

 

Yes, pretty much understood that all. Thanks. Will read those other links. I don't make anything very complex and do try and make my meshes very low polly so doesn't relate to me much. I also note (fashion blogger) that I don't seem to come up against the forementioned laggy mesh. I'll have to inspect some of my outfits more closely in wireframe but I am guessing I am lucky and "my designers" are doing a pretty good job. 

 

Thanks for all that info. Good read for many. I feel lots smarter.

[Codewarrior Congrejo]

Hey drongle;

Regarding the instance flag -  (bare with me - i just got up : ))
I think it was Nyx Linden mentioning this back in that time when being asked if the use of instances could be implemented in order to save drawcalls. And i think it's really just meant the way that it 'respects' the flag (when being delieverd in the collada file) but breaks it down into the internal system. Thus as you said, ..deciding what is a 'prim' without reference to the loss of independent transformability..
Which would also explain why it is basically the same outcome no matter if it was instances or copies (like in your tree example)

The toggle you suggested would have been nice, not only for the download weight but also for possibly -  if taken even further -  the handling inworlds, by i.e. applying a new texture on one of the instances within that resulting one object (no linkset), and  changing it right away for all instances of that sub-part.

Concerning vertex splitting, as discussed in one of the links you gave - In SL, this all takes place before the model gets uploaded. That's why people often ask about the unexpectedly high vertex counts in the uploader. The effects are thus already reflected in the download weight, which should incentivise people to make exactly the kind of optimisations suggested in the linked page. That is one beneficial result of the internal upload format. It makes for a good correlation between download weight and render resouce use.

Correct. And to add - still takes place in the renderpipeline, which was the point i was making, as people generelly tend to forget (or are unaware of ) about the effects their models have in terms of rendercost, independent from the secondlife-internal costs (like landimpact).

And correct also about the displaying of all 'additional' vertex sources in the uploader - which should normally make them consider the reasonability of their model. But i think many really do not understand the whole concept of 3D, how  engines handle things internally and terms like renderpipelines etc. So it's probably just natural they simply are left wondering why the vertex count is so high and assuming there is something wrong with the uploader, or their model would be messed up somehow. 

[Chic Aeon]

That is SO what I suspected!    If only those with Advanced Lighting Model on (and that is in ultra) can see the new effects and it looks THAT BAD for everyone else, it is even worse than the beginnings of mesh. Back then you at least saw strangely colored eggs and invisible parts of people (in the case of worn mesh) and it was OBVIOUS that you couldn't see what you were supposed to see.

 

With the new system, a lot of folks -- those who cannot use Advanced Lighting (I understand you don't actually need to have shadows on with that) will have a very ugly world. So for many months it won't be all that viable.

I have also noted (and I will be posting and asking questions in the viewer forum in a bit) that the last server update seems to have changed graphics even more. I saw 200 fps when I logged in this morning and I wasn't even up on my empty building pad. I have NEVER seen that before. This without shadows.

When I turn on shadows it drops to 19 or 20 (still very good for me) BUUUUUUUT  my graphics card NOW heats up more than I would like  when I turn on shadows. Happily the fan starts making noise and I know that. I keep the overdrive tab open and check often. I can't stand the noise so not in shadows now except when I need to be.

I read that the "upcoming methods" (not exactly sure what that meant) would help the FPS a lot but that shadows took a hit. I noticed that last week, but my graphics card wasn't making angry sounds then. Since Wednesday it has been .

HMMMM.

[Codewarrior Congrejo]

@ Charli - 

They 'look' like flat textures when you only see it in a 'screenshot'.
But the effect of a normal map goes further. As light and shadows are being casted over these textural created details in the model. Means they behave just as any 'real' detail and light and shadows keep wandering across it when you move.
But aside from that normal maps are just 'one part' that makes a model complete, and can't take it as far as displacement maps (regular displacement or vector displacement) could take it - those can actually 'move' the geometry and thus visually 'deform' the object, by adding visual geometrical detail.
Thereby a normal map will allways look 'flat' from certain view angles, but as it acts like those details would be there in terms of light and shadow it adds a lot to the whole feel of being real.

Have a look at this video then you will see how this looks 'live and in movement' 

 

Since you weren't aware what normal or specular maps are:
Normal maps: 
It's a technique used to fake the lighting of bumps and dents - (an implementation of bumpmapping) 
It adds more visual details without using more polygons. Thus can greatly enhance low polygon models.

Specular maps: 
they define shinyness and reflections of light like the bright light dot you see on a polished billard ball.
With specular maps you can visually shape the specularity of a model in certain spots. (like the the forehead of a human normally has more specularity / shinyness going on, and leather is behaving different from metal etc)
This way you can have it all still in the same shader but just take the specularity values from a texture / image and having different areas look individually - instead of applying the same specular behavior for all parts in this certain model.

And yes they are 'textures' (image maps) that are being used in channels of the material / shader in order to create certain visual effects.

Example

Diffuse map (color map) : http://www.3dtotal.com/tutorial/zbrush/makingof_zenoth_alien_from_jupiter/images/image_10_character_uv_skin_texture.jpg
Normal Map: 
http://www.3dtotal.com/tutorial/zbrush/makingof_zenoth_alien_from_jupiter/images/image_07_colour_uv_map.jpg
Specular Map:
http://www.3dtotal.com/tutorial/zbrush/makingof_zenoth_alien_from_jupiter/images/image_11_character_skin_bump_specular.jpg

[Codewarrior Congrejo]

Heya Chic,

1) great, i'm glad my answer was understandable. : )
2) regarding the 'uglyness' for people with no capability of  enabling advanced lighting, i guess their world will not literally look uglier, but of course not enhanced either.

Since normal maps are usually used for bringing out details that are apparent in the diffuse texture as well.
So they will just see it as it always was before the normal maps will be introduced just as a textured flat area. Since normal maps can't really fake 'extremely far' going indents or bumps they will i.e. still see things as before just more textural (instead of having high polygon amounts shaping those tiny details out, like the small wrinkles on a jacket, pores in leather etc)

But i am kind of afraid that even with normal maps and specular maps, people will most likely just start to sum things up, lol. Meaning creating high polygon objects and clustering normal and specular maps on top of it. I guess it will have to show how much improvement in terms of 'reasonable' designed content that will bring us.

Edit : just seen that Kwak basically has the same fear - seems i am not allone with that ..=)

PS: it must be this time of the year - my CPU fan is making ugly noises too - guess it is time for some dust removal.*sighs*

[Coby Foden]

---

Chic Aeon wrote:

With the new system, a lot of folks -- those who cannot use Advanced Lighting (I understand you don't actually need to have shadows on with that)...

---

The goods news is that it needs only Advanced Lighting on, shadows are not needed.

I noticed, in my system, that turning Advanced Lighting on didn't reduce fps at all.

Shadows on, that lowers fps quite a lot.  But as said, shadows are not needed to see the effect of materials.

[Charli Infinity]

Oh it does look a lot more impressive in video than in pictures. The details on the jacket in the video looks really good, how they can make wrinkles buttons and collars with a low poly mesh as a base... That looks exciting! I remember reading somewhere before this that materials will make SL look completely different , got my hopes up a little to high..Felt a bit disappointed that it doesn't look that much different than what SL looks like now just maybe more efficient.

[Coby Foden]

---

Charli Infinity wrote:

they look just like normal flat textured prims though... kind of dissapointing

---

In static picture they may look like that.  You have to see them inworld with varying lighting conditions.  Then you can see that they surely are not just ordinary "flat textures".  The normal map adds real depth to the object and specular map adds dynamic shine effect which changes according to lighting.  It's not at all like painted on static highlighting.

So materials are not a dissappointment.  It's awesome feature.  :matte-motes-smile:

[Coby Foden]

---

Charli Infinity wrote:

and it would take 3 maps for 1 object? That means more to render and more lag? are maps like textures?

---

The maps are textures. There will be three of these maps in the SL material system.

• Diffuse map (the texture with what have been texturing so far, this will also be in the material system)

• Normal map (gives bumpiness to the object)

• Specular map (gives dynamic "shiny" effect)

Those three maps will be applied to one object.

Actually the material system will reduce lag.  There is no need to make very high polygon mesh objects because the high polygon look can be achieved with normal map applied to a low polygon object.  The system needs to do a lot less work with the low polygon model with three maps applied than it would need to do with very high polygon count model with only diffuse texture applied on it.

 

 

[Charli Infinity]

That's good. Finally something that could reduce lag and look good at the same time.

[Drongle McMahon]

"they look just like normal flat textured prims though"

That's because you are looking at a static picture. Inworld, when you walk around the one with materials, or make it rotate, you see the highlights and lighting change with your angle of view. If the one on the left was a normal texture, it would look all wrong if it was rotated 180 degrees. With the material maps, it doesn't. All the shininess and other variation behaves properly with respect to the lighting inworld.

Whoops - did this before seeing everyone else alreadsy made the point. Sorry.

[Charli Infinity]

Yeah. I saw a video of it. I get what it is now.

[Chic Aeon]

So replying to lots of folks. Figured this out earlier but was busy.

So if made "correctly" the folks without "Advanced Lighting Mode" enabled should see say a plain brick wall. The folks with it enabled (depending on what maps have been added ) will see an enhanced version of the same wall with more of a 3D look and greater detail and maybe sparkles in the concrete. So things don't necessarily need to look BAD (this from another post I saw so hopefully correct).

Also here is a video (hopefully not one already mentioned as I see we have all been typing a lot) that shows the goodness. We've probably all seen the official promo video from long ago. Still impressive.

The thing about "Advanced Lighting Mode" is that from what I have read -- it is only available on ULTRA (like shadows) and there are plenty of folks that can't run on ultra. Not folks here most likely but this is not a good representation of the "masses" in general

I won't be jumping on the band wagon right away. I'll wait a few months and let you guys figure it all out so you can advise *wink*.

 

[Codewarrior Congrejo]

So if made "correctly" the folks without "Advanced Lighting Mode" enabled should see say a plain brick wall. The folks with it enabled (depending on what maps have been added ) will see an enhanced version of the same wall with more of a 3D look and greater detail and maybe sparkles in the concrete. So things don't necessarily need to look BAD (this from another post I saw so hopefully correct).

yes, that you have understood fully correctly. And the video you posted is a good example of what i meant to explain : )

[Baloo Uriza]

Basically, yes.  A good designer knows how to make something look good in as few polys as possible.  Bad designers will charge you a load for needlessly high poly counts, then blame your computer for being underpowered.

[Codewarrior Congrejo]

so true ! ; )