WADE1 Jya Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 I realized something is very wrong with the employment forum.It can not be called 'employment' legally. Check into it, seriously.I wouldn't want to see you guys get in hot water.I remembered something from back when I had a management position at a company that was not technically offering "employment". What we did was we just gave people opportunity to make money through distribution agreements & arranging contracts with clients. It was a very cool thing for some people. For others it was horrible, they would make very little money, or potentially --- nothing at all.As one of the people working in middle management, I was cautioned at one point not to ever use the terms "employment", "employee", "employer", "hire", or "fire" etc.... anymore as these have very specific legal definitions.Until that point, all managers had been using traditional job terminology. Turns out there had been a major legal issue somewhere costing the company a lot of money over this simple mistake. Employment, by definition means the employee must receive at least minimum wage by law & numerous other parameters of obligation must legally be fulfilled between the two parties.Although many fun opportunities are presented in the 'employment' forum, none I have seen are ever genuine employment.I have not seen an offer of minimum wage, or anything even close to minimum wage. These are not offers of employment.To avoid potential lawsuits against Linden Lab and/or major grief between residents, the forum title "employment" should be changed to something more generalized, or the forum should be restricted somehow to only contain employment offers.Ask your legal people about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmettcullen93 Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 it is titled inworld employment. inworld has different rules and the lindens dont see stuff in the threads here. you must contact them a different way. the role of a advisor is to look after isuess in the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WADE1 Jya Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 As far as I know they do look at the forums quite often, but ok... what would you suggest is the most appropriate way to direct their attention to the matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmettcullen93 Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 you would have to ask a advisor how to reach the lindens on that but i believe that with employment inworld goes with there terms. this is a virtual world not a real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 In my experience with companies running web-based business it's the communications by other means that get the attention, because it's not as common. http://lindenlab.com/contact Phone, fax or good old postal mail may be the 'best' way. Anything addressed to 'legal department' is sure to be noticed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 WADE1 Jya wrote: As far as I know they do look at the forums quite often, but ok... what would you suggest is the most appropriate way to direct their attention to the matter? Why not write, by snail mail, to their General Counsel at Linden Lab 945 Battery Street San Francisco, CA 94111, United States Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deja Letov Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Considering it's a discussion forum and not a job posting website I doubt very much it would be an issue. Not to mention I doubt for anyone there is a contract in place or official letter of offering or anything that would consitute a legal agreement of employment. Possibly by some of the larger land owned companies but outside that I doubt very much they are in any danger for simply hosting a discussion forum about in world employment. We've got a looking for employment discussion forum on our website in my real job and the same situation, we aren't liable for anything since it's just a discussion forum and not a job posting website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra Exonar Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 If your not getting payed in RL$ then I woulden't think working for some one else in SL would count as a job, but if you cashed out your L$ it could count as income, of course that all depends on where you live in RL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwalyphi Korpov Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 The resident who provided the previous content, if any, has replaced it with this generic statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WADE1 Jya Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Since 'Linden Lab' moved this to "forum feedback", I'll assume they are aware now & will check it out :catwink: Thanks for being on the ball, that's much easier than the other ways of contact suggested here & saves me having to crosspost it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanneAnne Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 WADE1 Jya wrote: I realized something is very wrong with the employment forum. It can not be called 'employment' legally. Check into it, seriously. I wouldn't want to see you guys get in hot water. I remembered something from back when I had a management position at a company that was not technically offering "employment". What we did was we just gave people opportunity to make money through distribution agreements & arranging contracts with clients. It was a very cool thing for some people. For others it was horrible, they would make very little money, or potentially --- nothing at all. As one of the people working in middle management, I was cautioned at one point not to ever use the terms "employment", "employee", "employer", "hire", or "fire" etc.... anymore as these have very specific legal definitions. Until that point, all managers had been using traditional job terminology. Turns out there had been a major legal issue somewhere costing the company a lot of money over this simple mistake. Employment, by definition means the employee must receive at least minimum wage by law & numerous other parameters of obligation must legally be fulfilled between the two parties. Although many fun opportunities are presented in the 'employment' forum, none I have seen are ever genuine employment. I have not seen an offer of minimum wage, or anything even close to minimum wage. These are not offers of employment. To avoid potential lawsuits against Linden Lab and/or major grief between residents, the forum title "employment" should be changed to something more generalized, or the forum should be restricted somehow to only contain employment offers. Ask your legal people about it. I've always wondered if ppl who who sell stuff in SL report their income to the IRS. I assume some do but do all the smaller timers who make only enuf to pay tier? Isn't that taxable income? I wonder if SL doesn't constitute a big tax fraud scam for hundreds of merchants. Jeanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WADE1 Jya Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 I'm not completely clear about tax in USA because I reside in Canada. What I do know is everyone living outside USA who receives payments of even pennies by any American company would be required by IRS to have an EIN or ITIN or else IRS will tax them a stiff 30% on all moneys (assuming IRS is aware of the payment). I believe all payments would be clawed back retroactively upon discovery which could get scary for anyone unprepared. As far as I know, Lindens have never asked foreign accounts to supply EIN or ITIN, or even supply a W-8BEN to do business in SL, so potentially any foreign people who withdraw money regularly from SL could lose big time at some point. For US citizens living in America, I really have no idea what happens. Americans living outside USA must pay 30% tax. I am ready if IRS ever clamps down on SL because I have an EIN since I do business with other American companies which always requires this (unless I wanted to just lose lots of money for no reason). EIN & ITIN are basically IRS trying to make sure Americans living abroad pay tax. So all foreigners receiving money must have one of these numbers just to prove they are not American living abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanneAnne Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 WADE1 Jya wrote: I'm not completely clear about tax in USA because I reside in Canada. What I do know is everyone living outside USA who receives payments of even pennies by any American company would be required by IRS to have an EIN or ITIN or else IRS will tax them a stiff 30% on all moneys (assuming IRS is aware of the payment). I believe all payments would be clawed back retroactively upon discovery which could get scary for anyone unprepared. As far as I know, Lindens have never asked foreign accounts to supply EIN or ITIN, or even supply a W-8BEN to do business in SL, so potentially any foreign people who withdraw money regularly from SL could lose big time at some point. For US citizens living in America, I really have no idea what happens. Americans living outside USA must pay 30% tax. I am ready if IRS ever clamps down on SL because I have an EIN since I do business with other American companies which always requires this (unless I wanted to just lose lots of money for no reason). EIN & ITIN are basically IRS trying to make sure Americans living abroad pay tax. So all foreigners receiving money must have one of these numbers just to prove they are not American living abroad. Thanks for responding WADE1. I was googling "second life tax law" but didn't find much definitive information .. & didn't have time to dig deeper. I'm assuming that any time anyone converts L$ earned inworld into US$, it constitutes taxable income, and if they fail to report said income on their tax returns it would constitute felony tax evasion. I also assume that the famous SL landlords & big operators who make a RL living from SL are well aware of this & conform to US tax law. But what about the thousands of small time builders & scripters & DJs who may make a few bucks here & there to suppliment their RL incomes? Reporting the $ they make in SL could in some cases be just enuf to kick them into a higher tax bracket, depriving the US Treasury of revenue owed under federal law if they fail to do so. Suppose the IRS audited these peoples' taxes & subpoened records from LL. If they aren't reporting this income seems to me like they could be prosecuted & sent to prison if convicted. Or at least have to pay large fines & interest on back taxes they failed to pay. Then there are all the thousands of people who make a ltl bit in SL who never convert L$ into real $s, but use their income to pay rent or tier. Where do they fit under US tax code? I certainly don't know. I really don't know anything about all this. I suspect, however, that there are thousands of content creators in SL ~including people who regularly post in these fora~ who are in fact tax evading criminals. Is it worth the IRS's time to go after these scoff laws? I don't know that either. Jeanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deja Letov Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Qwalyphi Korpov wrote: I'm not a tax expert but I'm inclined to doubt your theory that only income converted to cash counts as income. Here's a relevant link and a quote from the same: http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=205581,00.html The IRS wants to remind small business owners that the fair market value of property or services received through barter is taxable income. Actually that is true. I run a business in SL and do file taxes on it every year. Until you actually make USD$, in any amount, you are not required to file on it. However, if you do not claim money you make in SL, you also cannot claim any expenses from SL. But if you have a business in SL and NEVER cash any of it out, you don't have to claim it on taxes but it was never realized income for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deja Letov Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 JeanneAnne wrote: WADE1 Jya wrote: I'm not completely clear about tax in USA because I reside in Canada. What I do know is everyone living outside USA who receives payments of even pennies by any American company would be required by IRS to have an EIN or ITIN or else IRS will tax them a stiff 30% on all moneys (assuming IRS is aware of the payment). I believe all payments would be clawed back retroactively upon discovery which could get scary for anyone unprepared. As far as I know, Lindens have never asked foreign accounts to supply EIN or ITIN, or even supply a W-8BEN to do business in SL, so potentially any foreign people who withdraw money regularly from SL could lose big time at some point. For US citizens living in America, I really have no idea what happens. Americans living outside USA must pay 30% tax. I am ready if IRS ever clamps down on SL because I have an EIN since I do business with other American companies which always requires this (unless I wanted to just lose lots of money for no reason). EIN & ITIN are basically IRS trying to make sure Americans living abroad pay tax. So all foreigners receiving money must have one of these numbers just to prove they are not American living abroad. Thanks for responding WADE1. I was googling "second life tax law" but didn't find much definitive information .. & didn't have time to dig deeper. I'm assuming that any time anyone converts L$ earned inworld into US$, it constitutes taxable income, and if they fail to report said income on their tax returns it would constitute felony tax evasion. I also assume that the famous SL landlords & big operators who make a RL living from SL are well aware of this & conform to US tax law. But what about the thousands of small time builders & scripters & DJs who may make a few bucks here & there to suppliment their RL incomes? Reporting the $ they make in SL could in some cases be just enuf to kick them into a higher tax bracket, depriving the US Treasury of revenue owed under federal law if they fail to do so. Suppose the IRS audited these peoples' taxes & subpoened records from LL. If they aren't reporting this income seems to me like they could be prosecuted & sent to prison if convicted. Or at least have to pay large fines & interest on back taxes they failed to pay. Then there are all the thousands of people who make a ltl bit in SL who never convert L$ into real $s, but use their income to pay rent or tier. Where do they fit under US tax code? I certainly don't know. I really don't know anything about all this. I suspect, however, that there are thousands of content creators in SL ~including people who regularly post in these fora~ who are in fact tax evading criminals. Is it worth the IRS's time to go after these scoff laws? I don't know that either. Jeanne If they are doing it to supplement their income and are withdrawing US funds into Paypal then they better be filing taxes. If they aren't, I agree 100% they could be pursued and either fined/or jailed. but those who use their linden to pay tier and support their SL habbits by shopping with Linden dollars, they can do that all day long and as long as they never see one single US american penny, they aren't taxable. If you read SL's TOS, they are even very clear to state that Linden dollars have no montary value. 5.1 Each Linden dollar is a virtual token representing contractual permission from Linden Lab to access features of the Service. Linden dollars are available for Purchase or distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and are not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab. I would put money down that the reason they did this was exactly for this reason as well as liability. But by saying it has no monetary value, then it's not real money and it's not taxable. I'm pretty sure it's also why things are broken up in the "Selling" of linden process. First you sell your linden which gives you a credit in USD to your account. Then in another transaction, you are cashing out your credit. The first isn't taxable, the second is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanneAnne Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Deja Letov wrote: If they are doing it to supplement their income and are withdrawing US funds into Paypal then they better be filing taxes. If they aren't, I agree 100% they could be pursued and either fined/or jailed. but those who use their linden to pay tier and support their SL habbits by shopping with Linden dollars, they can do that all day long and as long as they never see one single US american penny, they aren't taxable. If you read SL's TOS, they are even very clear to state that Linden dollars have no montary value. 5.1 Each Linden dollar is a virtual token representing contractual permission from Linden Lab to access features of the Service. Linden dollars are available for Purchase or distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and are not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab. I would put money down that the reason they did this was exactly for this reason as well as liability. But by saying it has no monetary value, then it's not real money and it's not taxable. I'm pretty sure it's also why things are broken up in the "Selling" of linden process. First you sell your linden which gives you a credit in USD to your account. Then in another transaction, you are cashing out your credit. The first isn't taxable, the second is. Thanks Deja! That clears things up for me alot .. You may be paying your taxes in accordance w/ law but i wonder how many others do .. Would be interesting to have some idea .. I dont really know but i suspect that the majority dont! Yeah, LL is careful to state the L$ is merely a "virtual token" but since it can be converted in2 legal tender .. I suspect that Qwqly hasa very good point !! Jeanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WADE1 Jya Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Doesn't really matter what Linden Lab says the L$ is. Lindens can describe L$ however they like... they can say it represents currency, tokens or.... snailshells :catlol: IRS would decide for themselves what they think the L$ is and tax it accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Larkspur Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 IMHO, the term Inworld Employment, is effectively safe, as the modifying term of 'Inworld' implies a difference equivalent to the generally accepted disparities between 'Real Life' & 'Digital Life'. But Hang On; If your Avatar asks my Avatar to fly a Happy Birthday Banner over an SL Birthday Party for a sum of $100L, on such and such a date at this time... that constitutes a verbal agreement, does it not? Bottom Line: The Legal Professionals will do whatever required to be safe and limit their liability working diligently 24/7 thinking up stuff many people will never know existed let alone comprehend. The majority of Society (be it SL or RL) tend to operate on A Person's Word, A Handshake, A Good Feeling, Luck... You know the saying; 'Life Imitates Art' ? We made Movies about going to the Moon; then we went to the Moon... We strive to make SL more like RL ; Sooo, SL will probably continue to be more and more like RL.... Hmmm IMHO, the term Inworld Employment, is inherantly unsafe as a legal term with limited liability with respect to implyed legal and financial obligations, which we may or may not be prepared to .......... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmettcullen93 Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 in usa 10 rl dollers will buy about 2500L dollers now tax on 10 rl dollers is about 50 cents now that is about 125L so if you got a 50L tip for "income" they the tax would be like 2 or 3 L dollers. taxing a 10L tip would be like half a L and nobody can pay half a linden. it just dont work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WADE1 Jya Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 I checked into this more and it is a risk. Linden Lab (and any residents who offer 'employment') have just been lucky so far. Some legally safe titles for what is happening in this forum would be: Inworld Jobs >> 'Jobs' are work someone aims to complete, without any inherent legal obligations or protections attached. Inworld Work >> 'Work' does not imply you get anything in return & may even be forced duty (ex. prison work, home work, etc) Inworld Tasks >> Things that need done around here. inworld Labor >> Hey you're working, it's something to do... Ouch ... just noticed they're actually using the word 'hire' too, this is way too specific and gonna lead somebody to be in a lot of trouble one day! Wide open liability. "Get an inworld job or hire a Resident." <<not good! nobody is getting hired! This sentence is very troublesome terminology. It should say something much more generalized & safe, such as "Find tasks to do inworld or get a Resident working for you." Well, I warned you guys... carry on... :matte-motes-sour: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebook
Instagram
Twitter
YouTube
Flickr
Recommended Posts
Please take a moment to consider if this thread is worth bumping.
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now