Medhue Simoni

AlecDeBoeuil wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: You are thinking about much more than the avatar mesh. I'm just talking about the mesh. No, I am making a serious point in my usual flippant way. When was the last time an SL contest was won by the best entrant, rather than by a popularity vote contributed to by a bunch of biased alts? Come to think of it, when was the last time time an SL contest had transparency of rules and judging? In SL, we don't only have shoppers, but we also have many creators, who can all voice their opinions about the avatars. LL could also reject meshes that were poorly designed, before they ever get into the contest. If LL wanted, they could also have SL users vote, but the voting is simply symbolic, and gives LL an idea of what people like. LL could also not look at the topology at all, and let people just pick the best shape. LL could then have the mesh retopped for better UV mapping and topology. AlecDeBoeuil wrote: Alec - to see the naive trust shown by people in this forum in those who do not deserve it Nobody is asking anybody to trust anyone. Plus, who is the decider of who deserves what? I'd say the market is the decider.

Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: Just a thought, but what if, the morphs were stored locally within each person's viewer. So, a person sees a morph that they like, and they buy it from the marketplace. It gets stored locally, so that when you go to edit your avatar, all your morphs are there. You adjust your avatar, and when you are done, you BAKE it. The baking process would essentially create a brand new mesh, that get's traded amongst the veiwers. I personally would really like it if we could have 2 baked meshes, so that people could actually morph into things, like a werewolf. The problem with that, as I said earlier, is that a "baked" avatar is unique. So instead of the very small amount of data with the morph tags, you'd have to send a complete avatar to the server and the server would have to send it to all viewers. This would be the case for all avatars that aren't exactly the same. If you want to see how big the difference approximately is, create a DAE file for all of the LoDs of the default avatar, including eyes etc. Then compare its size to a text file that has a number for all avatar sliders. Apart from compression and other "tricks" that might be possible, that's what you're dealing with. What I'm suggesting is no different than everyone wearing a unique mesh. So, I don't see the problem with that. Yeah, it's not the ideal thing for a game, but it's going to happen like this anyways in a virtual world like we are talking about. If you don't think this is good, then you should also be against making dragon avatars for this world, or a bear, or a centaur. At least with this technique, most avatar meshes would have the same topology, and UV mapping.

Bree Giffen wrote: I think LL needs to make their own and make sure it is better than any of the current mesh avatars out there. It needs to have a lot of adjustments to create a wide range of body shapes without getting all jagged looking. Maybe one for male sand one for females. Definitely made with fitmesh in mind so that clothing designers can focus and support one body model. I really don't think it is possible for LL to make, or commission a mesh that will be better than anything the good SL creators can do. Morphs, like the sliders we have in SL to change the character, get added to the avatar mesh after the winner is chosen. Morphing a character like the SL default, is not a very difficult thing to do. Plus, if you throw in my idea of creators selling their own morphs for the default, then you really have unlimited possibilities. Fitted Mesh is really an abomination of the processes of fitting clothing to avatars, and really only applies to SL, because of the limitations of SL. If we could import meshes with blend shapes(morphs), than fitting clothing to avatars would not be a problem at all. Even if Sansar didn't allow for blend shapes, then LL could still develop the avatar using a multi-bone system, with all the morphing controlled by bones. In this case, the clothing creator just needs to rig the clothing properly to the bones, and it will morph perfectly with the avatar. In Unity3D, someone created a default avatar for games, called UMA, that does this exact same thing. I've created dozens of different products for this avatar for different clients, including specialized clothing to fit the client's game.

AlecDeBoeuil wrote: What sort of a contest are you envisaging? A modern pentathlon, perhaps, with avatars assessed for their grace, style, accuracy and speed, as well as their ability to ride a horse. Or perhaps something simple like tossing the caber? Alec - to make practical recommendations, especially on a Friday You are thinking about much more than the avatar mesh. I'm just talking about the mesh.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: I'm guessing you are talking USD not $L. Personally, i don't see any of the big names entering this contest. Yes, the winner would get their name out there, but at what cost? You are giving each new user the best work you can do, for free. Why would they buy a body from you after that? They already have your best work. Of course USD! The whole point of having a default avatar is so that everyone, creators and shoppers, are building off of 1 avatar. Not hundreds. The only reason shoppers today are buying mesh human avatars, is because the new mesh avatar have more geometry, and other advantages over the default. Most people don't want to deviate from the default, cause you lose so many options. Even in Sansar, it won't be much different, because it would be crazy to try and integrate all options into every mesh avatar uploaded. As far as, "Why would they buy a body from you after that? They already have your best work." . I don't know about you, but I'm on version 5 of my Lycan AO and avatar, and it would not suprise me at all if this didn't reach version 10. In my mind, perfection is hardly attainable. Even if LL release super high quality animations with the Sansar avatar, people would still buy animation from me. So, I don't really see the problem. Not everyone has the same tastes.

Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: Now, my technical knowledge falls off from here, but I've heard that morphs, or blend shapes would add a significant amount of data that would need to be shared amongst everyone. Who knows, there might be a good way to handle that. All I'm saying is, that there are many new and different ways that default avatar could work. I wouldn't know how the coding looks behind the process, but morphs are a bit like prims. Instead of having to send the exact position of each vertex (like in a mesh) or each vertex weight (like in a rig) you share a number of very tiny things over the network. "This is a box", "x is a certain size", "twist is this much". The box itself is stored locally with the installation of SL. Same with a morph: "this is morph long nose", "value is 10". The morph has to be stored locally. If the morphs were handled server side, the network load would rise enormously, since there wouldn't be a shared morph or a shared default avatar shape, but a unique avatar shape for every little change and for every new avatar that comes into view. So sharing user created morphs would obviously not work, morphing server side sounds difficult but might be possible. I'd expect a huge performance hit though. Just a thought, but what if, the morphs were stored locally within each person's viewer. So, a person sees a morph that they like, and they buy it from the marketplace. It gets stored locally, so that when you go to edit your avatar, all your morphs are there. You adjust your avatar, and when you are done, you BAKE it. The baking process would essentially create a brand new mesh, that get's traded amongst the veiwers. I personally would really like it if we could have 2 baked meshes, so that people could actually morph into things, like a werewolf. Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: I think for 40k you can easily hire an artist you can work with. With a contest, you'd probably spend a multifold of that just to look at all the entries, let alone finding the best one (You'd need to hire professional artists to judge/test the models btw, not programmers). I think it might work with a pre-selection, where the contenders are chosen in advance. That's not uncommon. Yeah, but if you just hired someone, then you just get whatever you get, with some adjustments. With a contest, you get a range of options to choose from. I would not have some secret LL group pick the winner, but let the SL community pick the winner. Creators like you and I could also critique the meshes, for good topology and all that, which would have some influence on everyone else, when picking their winners.

Imagine LL chose the Sansar default avatar with a contest. While looking something up today on the marketplace, I was a little in ah of some of the nice new mesh female bodies on sale. Some of them are pretty outstanding. I've rigged a couple for some creators just starting out with mesh bodies, and those were good too. Some of them, they go crazy with the options. I would think, that no matter what the cost, in terms of prize money, it would be well worth it. See, the thing is tho, I really don't think it is going to be cheap. You have to consider what some of these mesh body creators make on these bodies, and the time and effort to make them, with all those options. I don't know, it might go as high as $5000. Heck, you might need to go $10,000, to get a good amount of people to take the risk and spend their time on it. To me tho, that isn't that much. I mean, yeah, I animate more than model, but even I would be iffy if I was just offered that much outright, just because of all the work involved. Even so, I would think, that is a small price to pay for a mesh that is this important. If I were running the contest for my own game, I'd want the prize to be around $15,000 to $20,000, just to make sure it got people's attention. Heck, a part of this is pure marketing, and showing off this gorgeous new Sansar model. Remember, you need 2 of them, male and female. So, it could be $40k. Again tho, to me, it's money well spent. This would be just for the mesh tho, and all the options, like texture options. Everything related to the mesh, even the alpha layers, if needed. The rig is a whole other can of worms. Even if we did something like this for the whole rig set up, it would be better to wait until the meshes are picked. Oh, and to any creators thinking, "The defaults going to be so good, no1 will buy mine". With a new world comes new ways. We don't quite know how everything is going to work. Let me just give you 1 possibility. This might not be possible in the end, but it might be, and I think many people would like this. In Dazstudio, they developed the Genesis character. I personally have easily 500 morphs for that Genesis character, because in Daz, you buy morphs for it, or make them yourself. These morphs can turn the Genesis character into any character possible. So, imagine, if any creator could take that default mesh, and create and sell morphs for the default. In 1 sense, this is good for LL, as it keeps most of the people in Sansar using a mesh with good efficient topology. Now, my technical knowledge falls off from here, but I've heard that morphs, or blend shapes would add a significant amount of data that would need to be shared amongst everyone. Who knows, there might be a good way to handle that. All I'm saying is, that there are many new and different ways that default avatar could work.

Well, of course, I'm a guy, so this is not a topic that interest me all that much. Hmm, that was kind of weird to say, lol. Obviously this was all added a long time ago. Maybe I was just always seeing it, and didn't ever investigate how it was working now. I was always worried tho, cause I sell a set of weights for rigging mesh clothing, and never understood why my boobs weren't moving, even tho I have physic enabled. I don't think I could make the weights different to make it all better, but still. I'm testing it all now with my weights to make sure. Although, I would think if there was a problem, my customers would have said something.

Forget it, I figured it out. I'd love to know when this was implemented. Before, it just worked, nothing extra needed. I like how they did this, but why does it need it's own extra other layer? It's like LL purposely makes things ridiculously confusing. It's also crazy that I had to goto Youtube, and find an SL user talking about it all.

What? No wonder I haven't seen avatarphysics working on my avatar for a couple years now. Boy, I just love how LL just changes stuff and we are left to figure it out on our own wtf happened. I even did a few searches on the topic, and got nothing at all. Theoretically, yes, the hair and tail should work that way, as long as they are rigged to the bones that allow for this kind of avatar physics. If you have more info on these avatar physic appliers, I'd love to know more, cause I can't find anything about them.

Richardus Raymaker wrote: Something else i hope Linden Lab is doing it this time good from scratch instead of putting something in and never fix it. because with sansar there are not TP{V viewer that can fix the problem. A prime example of why the TPVs have more users, is the pie menu. What is crazy about that, is that LL was the 1 that originally developed it. When it was not added to the V2 viewer, we all yelled about it. The pie menu is many times better than the list menus we get now, which are always different, and you can easily accidently delete stuff, as well as other tragic results. With the pie menu, it all works off of muscle memory, and most people can easily click thru them without even thinking. LL changed it because they thought that being more consistent with other software was a good thing. At the very least, like Firestorm, they should have added the option, for the hardcore and experienced user like me.

Perrie Juran wrote: The problem with these so called "paid experts employed by LL" is simply this: They have never had a "Second Life" and hence have no to little understanding of what is needed. CHUI is the ultimate proof of this. The fact that CHUI almost went live with out a chat bar and that we had to explain to them why the Chat Bar was needed was proof enough. ROFL! I heard about that, but I thought it was just a joke. This has really been the problem from the beginning, that the people running the show don't use the product. Even today, you'll hear them openly admit it in interviews. Looping animations being broken doesn't matter to them cause they don't use it anyways. Not having a chat box doesn't matter either. Avatars wearing a million polygons doesn't matter. What gets me is that they work a normal work schedule at the Lab. This means they work 40 hours a week. Yet, none of that time is really spent inworld at all. IMHO, that is just nutty.

Darrius Gothly wrote: With the incredible diversity, depth and breadth of expertise floating around inside Second Life, massive amounts of it offered for free and/or without compensation requested ... As a hardcore anarcho-capitalist, I'd rather pay whatever I'd have to, to get the best person for the job, than trust in someone offering something for free, unless I know their competence personally. This isn't to say that we don't have good talent. That said, the experience of actually creating for virtual worlds, or SL in general, is a skill you aren't going to easily get outside of SL.

Prokofy Neva wrote: Thanks Medhue. Putting the mesh to convex hull, which I gather the maker should have done from the get-go, fixed that issue on that object on that sim. But I see it didn't fix on another object elsewhere. I've been told -- and this may only be urban lore -- that you should put all prims on convex hull now to "save land impact". I don't see that it does that -- or perhaps it changes only by one prim. I suppose every little bit helps. But the down side is twice I have had builds blow off the sim changing linked things to "convex hull" so I will not do that lightly. Again, I have to say first, I do not upload that many normal meshes, but more avatars and clothing. Generally speaking, convex should be less land impact, because a convex hull is generally less geometry than a "prim" physic shape. That said, the convex hull is generated by LL, not the creator. A smart creator, when making their own physics shape, could do it in a way that is better than the LL generated convex hull. If the mesh has very complex geometry tho, and it needs an exact physics shape, then the "prim" physics shape will almost always be more land impact than convex hull, but the convex hull shape will not follow every contour. Another thing to consider, is that because of LL's crazy land impact system, creators have looked for ways to get lower land impacts, hence leading to some very strange physics shapes, as the physics shape can be the biggest factor in the land impact. I'm also pretty sure there is a way to see the physics shape in SL. I'm pretty positive, as I've done it before. I'm at a disadvantage on the topic, because I don't generally buy meshes, and I wouldn't see these strange things personally. I'd just makes it myself if I needed something, and I know exactly what my mesh's physics are, so I'm not checking that normally. Oh, and Prok, if you ever have a question about creating SL stuff, mesh or animation, you can ask me inworld. My inworld time can be sketchy at times, but you'll always eventually get an answer.

It's also worth noting that changing the physics shape from prim to convex, could affect the Land Impact. So, be sure to check this.

Gaia Clary wrote: However i am not sure why someone would want to do that. That's exactly my thought. If this is what they want, then why not just attach the shoes to the feet in SL?

Please don't take this as a definitive answer. I have done zero testing on this. Every single mesh uploaded needs a physics shape. As you can imagine, this is for physics. Imagine you make a mesh house, without the proper physics shape, you might not be able to walk into that house, or you may be able to walk thru the wall. The physics shape also effects the navmesh. I imagine, that without a proper physics shape, you could have problems like you are having. Also, within the edit options of the mesh, there are options for different kinds of physics shapes. These are None/Prim/Convex Hull. Prim is the physics shape that it was uploaded with. Convex Hull is basically like a plastic bag around the mesh. You could try switching between them, depending on the mesh. I don't make many normal meshes, but I generally have a good physics shape and don't have many problems. The question is probably better suited for a furniture maker, as they likely deal with this all the time.

Kwakkelde Kwak wrote: How to do that in Blender I don't know, I use another program. In Blender, it is quite easy to transfer weights, especially if the person has the Avastar addon. SLink should have a model of their feet with weights on them that the user can transfer weights from. I actually sell a bodysuit with a set of weights for classic weighting, and fitted mesh weighting for the whole avatar, but they aren't optimized for Slink. I'm actually floored by how many people have purchased it.

SavageR0SE wrote: Is the VMM Second liife viewer compatible with windows 8.1? I downloaded this new viewer for windows but had 4-5 error messages about .dll files and i can NOT get this viewer to even sign on. I even took out all past second life viewers and tried a clean install. It hangs up when trying to log in at Loading world.......... What do i do? Pls im me (or email awildrose2u@yahoo.com) if you have a solution. I can get on Second LIfe with Firestorm just fine. The reason I am frantic is suddenly 1/2 of my breedables inventory in my Xstreet box is not synced up with marketplace.... This happened during the last 2 days. I think it may have something to do with this Migration. It was there just fine, all in sync....and then they weren't! Some of these breedables are very very time sensitive with sales prices? What a mess! I was trying to get the VMM viewer up to see if I could resolve the issue that way. SavageR0SE Resident Sorry to hear that Savage. There is seriously not much you can do until tomorrow morning. Back in the day, LL used to do software updates on Thursdays. We, the merchants, started bitching because time and time again, there would be a problem, and the Lindens were all at home for the weekend. Weekend after weekend we kept losing sales cause of LL's bad updates. A bunch of us demanded that they never put software updates out on thrusdays or fridays, but rather monday or tuesday were better, because then they had all week to fix any problems. I have no idea why they decided to start these migrations on thrusday, but again we see why doing this is pretty moronic. Besides, they really didn't let anyone know. LL posted a blog in the commerce section, which no1 will ever see unless they go directly to that commerce section. I mentioned it, and of course, they did nothing.

ChinRey wrote: There doesn't seem to be any Eric Call or Cory Ondrejka at hand to help LL develop Sansar. Nor to help them develop SL either for that matter - Of course, when I first found SL, I had little to no 3D experience at all, other than creating a few MODs with the CryEngine Editor in the game Far Cry. My background is actually fine arts. When I saw that we could make animations, and there were free tools, I leaped at it and sold my first animation by the end of my first week in SL. The more and more I learned about the animation system, the more I realized just how ingenius it is. Even now, after doing animation fulltime for over 8 years and creating for every single platform out there, I marvel at the genius in SL's animation system. This is why I've bitched at LL for years to fix the problems. When you look at everything involved, from the priority system, to isolating bones, to the gesture system, to voice and speech gestures, to all the different embedded animations, it's mind boggling to think a couple guys thought this all up. I could go on and on about it. Like I said, even today, there is nothing out there that compares to this. Most are very basic. Even Unity's mecanim system isn't as capable as what we have in SL. I really don't think it is even possible to out do it in Sansar, at least, not without some seriously professional animators directing the development. I remember being at the mesh development meeting and wondering why the Lindens weren't wearing any meshes. When all the crap went down about the Mesh Deformer, and LL just kept saying they weren't getting enough meshes to test with, I kind of lost it. You can't develop something like a Mesh Deformer, and actually know what is the problem by getting meshes from people and listening to what they say. What if they are wrong? What if they all suck at weight painting? You have to have a professional that knows exactly what they are doing, and directing how it should work, and evaluating it. You can't know from a mesh you didn't create, nor rig. All the problems could be the creator's fault. It was then I realized, this is fricken nutty that they don't have 1 competent mesh developer on staff. If Ebbe thinks they can make a good virtual world with just coders, we are seriously going to be dissapointed.

BlueTrianon wrote: Most SL creators are hobbyists, or at hobbyist level in skill. I truly don't mean that as a criticism. It's great that we have a platform where people like me can feel comfortable and even do well without having the skills that would be expected of a professional. And, of course, a few have gained enough confidence while creating for SL to advance to an impressive level. When it comes to the Moles . . . I'm curious, have you visited the Portal Park, Cornfield or Winter Wonderland builds? It is true that many creators are hobbyists, but many of us are also professionals, or became professionals because of SL. Yeah, I'm probably just a bit overly sensitive about it, and it's just words to describe a huge chunk of creators. That said, LL shouldn't make it appear that it's only hobbyists. Me, I'd be stressing more how creative people have turned creation in SL into a career. Drax does a good job of this, and I'm happy that LL is utilizing him.

Vick Forcella wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: So, what do you think the chances are that LL will get this right? None. It's my guess LL will let creators make rigging, of any lifeform you can imagine. For (clothing) creators though I hope LL will create a *good* standard avatar. Well, we need fully custom rigs, for exactly what you stated. That said, there is no point in everyone uploading their own humanoid rig. Not just for clothing, but for everything that is related to human avatars, meaning animation, gestures, voice controlls that animate you, and so on. If we don't have 1 rig that we are all building off of, then we'll have a very fragmented system and market, worse than we are dealing with mesh avatars today. I'd also suggest that LL make it so that we have a default human NPC rig, that works with all animations from the avatar rig. I did see Ebbe say something about the default avatar that makes it seem like he is better understanding the issues with a default avatar, and all the options that people might want. Again tho, how do they plan on making that happen. Of course, I have my own thoughts on those things, and I have explained them extensively in the forums ever since we found out about Sansar.

ChinRey wrote: Since you put it that way... It's obvious that somebody with a little bit of power has realized the problem and is trying to do something about it. I mentioned the Premium gifts and I thnk we should remember that LL did actually make a bona fide attempt to fix the worst diaster, that horrendous airship, and since then they seem to have tried to stick to more basic, simple builds more suitable for their skill level. And if I remember correctly, Ebbe Linden mentioned that they are working on a new beginner avatar. It's slow going though. How do you tell somebody who's proud to be a master of his field that sorry, you're just a novice really. You and I, we can say it right out but somebody with responsibility has to be a bit more diplomatic about it and that means it'll take a lot longer for the bad news to sink in. What do I think the chances are that LL will get this right? All things considered, somewhere between 60 and 70 percent That's good that they are listening, but this is also why I've been trying to convince Ebbe that strictly letting Maya users in first is going to lead to problems down the line. Problems that will slow the whole process down. They trusted in 1 person to make those avatars right, again likely a friend of someone, not a strictly business relationship. They need many eyes and professionals evaluating things, not just a few. My customers don't have any problem at all telling me where I went wrong, and that's because they aren't my friends. That is not a bad thing at all, although it might hurt a little, but that is a big part of growing and getting better. On a side note, I don't want people to think I'm some kind of a hard a$$. People that I work with and help see a much different side of me. Heck, even with this game I'm developing, my partners picked me to lead the project, cause I'm very good at communicating the issues and working together to sort them out. I do tend to be much more critical and obnoxious with LL, because they are like talking to a wall. Plus, I am their customer, and I really don't feel like 1, the way they handle things. On top of that, I keep hearing Ebbe and others at the Lab saying things like we are hobbyists, or that Blender is not used by professionals. This very much does get under my skin, because what I see from SL creators are that many of them are very knowledgable creators that are very much professionals. And.......Blender, in so many ways, blows Maya out of the water.

Bongo Steampunk wrote: Questions!! Is it possible to rig the eyelids somehow with the standard SL avi so that it can blink like standard avi does ? What I do for blinking, is I create an eyelid over the eye, with 3 eyelashes. This is a separate mesh from the head, just to keep things simple. The eyelid has different materials, so that I have 3 faces in SL. Inside SL, I place a script in the eyelids to make them turn transparent at the right times, to simulate blinking. It works very well, and the script is very basic, so as to not cause any lag. You can ask me for the script inworld, if you need it. I also move the skull bone into place, which is an extra unused bone, to move the jaw. Of course, you'll need to create your own animations to get this to work. I generally create a few different animations for this, to control typing overrides, and speech gestures for voice. You'll need to use Avastar, as it allows you to export an animation using that skull bone. If enough people are doing this tho, I will consider selling a set of full perm animations to animate these jaws, as I already have a few different sets. Bongo Steampunk wrote: I have heard about people making bodies and heads, but somehow using the same UV maps as standard avi so popular skins can fit. My next question is how can the SL uv's ever be made to suit a totally original different mesh? is it that simply that head/body makers always use the standard avi head / body mesh and rework the mesh yet maintain the uvs? Well, it's just a matter of unwrapping the mesh similarly to the SL default, and then manually moving those verts in the UV map into place. You might be able to try something funky where you have the default head parented to yours, and then using some snapping technique to snap your verts to the defaults positions. No matter how you do this tho, there are issues, even if you do get it to work. 1 issue that I found out, is that in order to use a default shin texture, you'd need to get some kind of texture applier, as the skin texture makers don't just hand out skin textures to anyone. I hope this helps

I don't have much experience rigging for these special feet, or whatever, but the basics of rigging is still the same. You need those weights. The feet, whether rigging for classic weight or fitted weights, have no morphing bones, so they don't morph. At least, this is my observation from rigging full avatars. Technically, the feet should be affect by size, in the slider, but for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to work. These are just my impressions, so maybe someone with more experience with these feet will comment.