Medhue Simoni

Mel Vanbeeck wrote: Please tell me why the Bento bone head sliders need to precisely reproduce the blend shapes of the base mesh. Why, for example, would the nose slider need to have exactly the same types of controls? (will probably be interpreted differently than I was thinking so struck it out). Is it a problem to remove (omit) nose sliders from the Bento nose, or for a slider to not have exactly the same range? You're mistaken on this point. And how exactly would I go about making my own slider system? A gazillion translation animations? There are limits to practicality here you're ignoring. Because the system already exists, and the meshes are already affected by the body shapes. Essentially, LL would have to recreate the exact same thing, or something very similar. Why not have the nose sliders react the same? What sense would it make for them to act differently? Should nose size do anything other than resizing the nose? Range could be played with, but that's outside of my understanding of how things work. Yes, you'd need to create a hundred or so different animations, and put them into a hud that remembers the setting chosen. Then the hud just plays the right set of animations, all the time, to form the desired shape. You could easily make 3 sets of expressions to fit the different variations that might come about. IMHO, that is alot less work, for much more versatility, than what is currently being done today. Plus, many times less laggy.

Gaia Clary wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: @Matrice or @Gaia - A video on how these controls work would be much appreciated by many. well, yes... Is a video realy helpful here? Isn't a short text document better suited for this? I just think video is better to learn from. Plus, it's not just what to do but also how to use it.

Mel Vanbeeck wrote You took issue with me saying " Bento is entirely about controlling mesh heads.", but the entire sentence read "There is no real reason this needs to mimic the slider behavior of the base head, Bento is entirely about controlling mesh heads.". You felt it needed to be reiterated that Bento wasn't just about heads. I agree, but the head is where these problems lie, so that's what we're talking about. I took issue with it because it's not true. The "entire" sentence shows a lacking of understanding of how the avatar works in SL. Body shapes are required. So, yes, the system does need to mimic the slider behavior of the base head(body shape). LL would have to design a whole new system in order for it to work any other way. IMHO, it's somewhat ingenius what has been done to our avatars with Bento. Matter of fact, it's so versatile, you can take over complete control of the head and make your own slider system, with your own bone positions.

@Matrice or @Gaia - A video on how these controls work would be much appreciated by many. I have played around with them, and I like them, but because so many of the avatars I've been testing aren't human, I tend to delete all the constraints on the green bones. @Siddean - As I said above, I tend to delete all the constraints, but I also have to go thru the bone parenting, and uncheck Connected to get the bones to move freely. When it comes to some of the unusual rigs I need to make to control some bone sets, I have to uncheck other Parenting options, like Inherit Rotation.

Mel Vanbeeck wrote: Edit: Oh I see what your issue was. I wasn't clear that I meant it's entirely about controlling mesh heads as opposed to the SL default head, which becomes irrelevant as soon as someone attaches a mesh head. My issue? Why exactly would I care so much about the SL default head? Outside of some jiras, I have no issues at all. If you are asking why I'm responding to you, I'm trying to help you. You keep stating all these problems, when the soluton for you is obvious. The real question should be to you. Why won't you use translation? I guarantee that other mesh head designers will be using translation, and yours will suffer for not.

I'll just point out again, that bone translations fix almost everything you just complained about. Mel Vanbeeck wrote: There is no real reason this needs to mimic the slider behavior of the base head, since Bento is entirely about controlling mesh heads. It is not something that is simple to accomplish, but it can be done. Whether Bento stops short of that standard is obviously a decision beyond my control, but I really hope it doesn't. Bento is not entirely about controlling mesh heads. It is about a whole new skeleton that allows us to make almost ANYTHING.

Here is a video of my Coyot Avatar wearing different body shapes utilizing the sliders. I've not optimized the weights on the face of the avatar for using the sliders, but mostly for animations. I also don't have the avatar rigged to the latest Avastar version, which utilizes more of the mouth and jaw sliders.

Mel Vanbeeck wrote: So yes, it may be true that most of the bones are using scaling, but from what I see it's also true that most of them are also using translations. Also, while some of those bones aren't necessarily used for expressions (though nearly all of them are anyway), it is also true that every single bone that is used for expressions has a translation element from some shape slider (with the single exception of the tongue), so that's that. IDK, I kind of beg to differ here. Here is my Coyot avatar. The 1 on the left is exactly as I designed him. The 1 on the right is wearing a different shape, which has some extreme slider settings. Both are running a facial expressions system utilizing all the facial bones and almost exclusively using translations. So, the difference is the 2 shapes in the face, are the sum of all the sliders that work, which is quite a few. It should also be noted that I have spent almost no time optimizing the weights in the face to try and make these slider changes better. It's also worth noting, that the eye size did not hold. That's a bit perplexing, but whatever. IMHO, the slider that do work, add up to some significant changes that most mesh avatar creators and users are going to love.

For the bones that do use translation for the sliders, mesh head creators could completely take over those bones, and release different versions of their heads with different positions for those bones.

Mel Vanbeeck wrote: Well, what you seem to be suggesting now essentially means completely abandoning slider functionality in favor of animation range. While that is an option, I don't really see that as an acceptable solution, especially when there actually is quite a lot of animation range available just using rotations so long as the bones are positioned well. In fact the whole scheme of putting the bones several inches from the surface of the skin is entirely for this purpose. Yes, it still needs some tweaking to hit that target, but if the final solution is just to abandon pure rotation animations and go all in on translations, then the bones should just be moved to the surface where translation+rotation control wouldn't be so awkward. First, you say you want perfection, then you say you can only use rotation. You admitted yourself that some expressions are out of range when only rotations are used. So, the only fix is to use translation. I don't really see the reasoning on trying to make expressions that fit everyone. I don't mind that people want to chase that dream. Go right ahead. If people really want that, I might do that also. What I predict tho, is that the consumers will want the best there could be. This means all animations, or at least expressions, are made custom for every single mesh. This being the case, If you want to compete with that, you are forced to abandon rotation only. Hey, I'm just logically making the progressions as I see them happening in SL. Then again, I don't have that much direct experience in the mesh head market. Mel Vanbeeck wrote: Going back to your idea of making a dozen different smile animations in hope that maybe one or two of them look right on a given mesh/shape combo. Maybe that works for a third-party animator trying to build generic animations for mesh heads where the expectation of compatibility is lower, but when you're a mesh head designer, the animations you build for your heads need to work perfectly 100% of the time. It can't be that you have an animation that works for shape A, but the more you move your mouth position away from shape A it starts looking worse and worse until you opt for the other animation that works with shape B or the one that works with shape C. That's far too complicated, and generally just shoddy. Exactly! Which is why all mesh heads will need completely custom facial expressions. If the mesh head creators release their skeletons, then anyone could make expressions for them. I'm hoping that everyone will share Bento skeletons, so animators like myself can create my own versions of expressions, or even mocaps to fit their avatars perfectly. Even with my wolves, I'm thinking of making the skeleton available to anyone, and I might even sell the animations full perm, so anyone can make their own wolf, or dog like animal using my rig, and my animations. For a mesh head designing team, a custom Blender addon, or even your own Blender version for people to animate their own faces, would be a kick butt feature to have. Just say'n. Mel Vanbeeck wrote: Sliders which I suspect use translations: Head Shape, Egg Head, Face Shear, Forehead Angle, Brow Size, Upper Cheeks, Lower Cheeks, Cheek Bones, Eye Size, Eye Opening, Eye Spacing, Outer Eye Corner, Inner Eye Corner, Eye Depth, Upper Eyelid Fold, Eye Bags, Puffy Eyelids, Ear Size, Ear Tips, Nose Size, Nose Width, Nostril Width, Nostril Division, Nose Bridge... I'm just going to stop there because the trend is obvious. It's about 80% of the sliders that seem to use translation. So this approach you suggest basically means that you'd have to say that the head is flat out not compatible with shape sliders, or at least that you would have to choose between sliders and animation. I have no idea how many sliders use translation, but it is obvious to me that your list is bloated. I have rigged a minimum of 10 different heads with the Bento bones, and played a little with the sliders on some of them. Plus, I talk with Cathy regularly, and she tells people that most of the sliders use scale. Using scale is smart, as we can't animate it anyways. Many, if not most, I can see how simply scaling a bone can produce something similar to the SL slider's morph. Remember, that is what we are doing here, with these special bones, trying to mimic a morph/blend shape. Eye size is an obvious scaling of the eye bones. If it's not, then it should be, but I suspect it is. The are too many to name that are more likely scaling vs translation. A list might be nice to have, to more clearly see what is possible. Many of the bones that use the sliders aren't even facial expression bones, so you can easily avoid those bones when animating, and still sell the expression you want pretty well. That said, in the systems current state, setting them with animation, or including them in an animation will reset any translation brought on by a slider, which is problematic.

Mel Vanbeeck wrote: Do the shape sliders not apply any translations to the mouth corners? As I've mostly been doing none human heads lately, I really have no idea. If I were a mesh head designer tho, I would just assume that any shape slider that uses anything besides scale will not work. I mean, I totally get that a creator wants to put out the best avatar possible, but that can't really happen if you only use rotation for facial animation. Some in the bento group thought to only use rotations to ensure that animations are compatible across all avatars. Me, I'm first and foremost an animator, so only using rotation, for expressions, is just not an option in my mind. Not if you want the full range of expressions a human avatar should have.

Mel Vanbeeck wrote: Ok I understand your premise, but sticking with this mouth corner bone as the example, I've put together an image that demonstrates that whatever your weighting, you can only do so much with the bone in a specific position without using translation animations. Who said anything about not using translation? Not me! I don't even suggest creators attempt to make expressions with only rotations, as they just won't look good compared to those with bone translation. If you want expressions to look good, bone translation is a must. No respectible animator today would even attempt to make a smile without bone translations. Using bone translation, you'll likely not be able to have just 1 set of expressions that fits everyone, but this is why I suggested making many different smiles to fit every head available.

Mel Vanbeeck wrote: Also, yes, you can get by with a bone that's not in the perfect position, and customers will probably never question the fact that there's no such thing as a big smile animation, or a deep yawn, or a heavily furrowed brow, or whatever expressions are out of reach as a result of sub-optimal bone placement, but even from the perspective that this could substantially simplify the design process I think it's definitely worthwhile putting some time into making this feature work. What? Not to get in a debate with you, but I see no reason at all that a big smile anim, or a deep yawn, or a heavily furrowed brow can't be made. Any facial expression you want is completely possible, even with slider support. Technically, you could rig someone like Mr Incredible without moving his facial mesh, nor the default bones, and just weight the facial features to the appropriate facial bone. The bones don't have to line up with the actual facial features at all. As long as they are weighted well, facial animations made with the default positions will work. They might not be perfect, but that is when you make those expressions yourself, for your avatar. Actually, that sounds like a good test case, and possible Bento creation tutorial. I can envision how this might work also. Let's imagine someone makes a character with a strange face. As long as the facial weights are good, an animator like me could make a dozen or so big smiles for the default bone positions, even using translation, and anyone with an avatar rigged for the default facial bones could try them all and pick out the 1s that work the best. I can see it happening that way. Too swamped with work to dive right into this but definitely something I'll play with later.

Mel Vanbeeck wrote: You model your head with all the features located according to the default bone positions, then skin it and let customers turn that head into whatever the sliders will allow. You model your head according to your own unique vision, then attempt to use the sliders in Avastar or Mayastar to position the bones appropriately for your head before skinning, write down all the slider settings, then revert the sliders to the standard shape before exporting to enable sliders. Once in SL, you create a shape that reproduces the slider settings you built the head on, and include that with the model. I'll just point out that, in both of these situations, they are way more than what we had. In the case of Mr. Incredible, you could easily make him with the current default bone positions. Yes, then you'd just have Mr Incredible with some variation, but isn't that good? No, at the default, it might not look exactly like him, but is that the point, for it to look exactly like him, or is the point to have variations? Don't get me wrong here. I want everyone to be happy, and the more posibilities, the better it is for all of us. I'm just saying that we have a heck of alot more than we had.

Mel Vanbeeck wrote: I'm going to start working on a JIRA concerning the need for modifiable bone positions that don't disable slider functionality, but just to introduce the subject here I want to make the point that by making the act of moving bones something that reduces functionality it has a sort of dampening effect on the creativity of head designers. These examples are from various films, but even when you're talking about making photoreal heads there is substantial variation in the position of the underlying bones and muscles that need to be represented by the rig. When you're trying to build your face around an existing bone positioning, you'll probably wind up making basically the same face over and over rather than really flexing your creativity. I'll just point out that the point of the sliders is for the user to make the range you are speaking of, not the creator. Now, 1 could make the argument that we need more slider support, or that the sliders could be more extreme. These have almost nothing to do with where you start from tho. Many designers have been asking me for advice, and the advice I'm giving is to create their mesh heads from the default positions. Bone positions - Eyelid bone positions, yes, in theory, they should pivot from the same point the eye does. That said, it's not likely going to be perfect, and some translation will be needed. The Jaw, I'd say average everyone's guesses, and that should be about right. The tongue, IMHO should not be directly connected to the jaw bone. As far as slider support, I'd say that we should only include bones connected to sliders if they utilize scale. If they do not, yes, they do seem a bit useless.

First, I would get rid of that rotation, by Applying Scale and Rotation. 2nd, the SL collada file will only accept 4 bones weighted to each vertice. You likely have more than 4 bones per vert, and the system is choosing only the top 4 bones with the highest weights.

Pirschjaeger Fassbinder wrote: I attempted to rig the mesh to the eyelid bones, but it just did not work for me. I might try a little more, but I think the problem may lie in bigness of the eyes and the relatively small eyelids. I am unable to get the upper eyelids to completely close without eyelid mesh going into the eye meshes. I even made a somewhat lame lower lid rigged to the lower eyelid bone that rotates upward. I also tried fiddling with the position of the upper eyelid bone in the animation, but I could not get it close without overlapping. I also tried moving the bone position in general. I could be missing something. Does mFaceEyecornerInner suppose to serve any purpose in blinking? It's probably best to try playing with the eyelid weights while the eyelids are in the closed position. It's probably also good to pull the eyelids slightly away from the eye in the closing animation.

I'm not totally sure Poser will work with this, but your best bet is to try to import a dae file of the new skeleton into Poser. I'm pretty sure the latest version of Poser excepts DAE files.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: By update i mean free update. Meaning the mesh creator gives away a bento verion of the old head for free. I really don't see many creators doing that. Who knows how much work it will be to re-rig to bento. Creating new mesh heads with the bento skeleton would be easier, and then release them as totally new products. Why would a new mesh head be easier than an old? It's the same amount of work. Also, why do they need to give them away for free? People will pay for new versions. I think everyone can understand that rigging a Bento head can be quite a bit of work, and willingly pay for it. All that said, why make only heads? With Bento, IMHO, they should just make full avatars. Now, I'm not in the Mesh Head market, so there might be nuances that I don't understand. Aside from that tho, why waste time with only doing heads. With bento they get fingers, and even toes. I personally think Bento will make mesh avatar stuff simplier for the users.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: Bento should have been implemented before mesh came out. Rofl, that is pretty funny. Drake1 Nightfire wrote: The problem is that previous mesh heads and avatars will have to either be remade or a new version made. And i doubt any mesh maker will give them away as "updates." Well, if the head, or body designers don't, meaning make a new version, then they will be left in the dust, as the new bento heads will be many times better just in efficiency alone. As it is, most people with current mesh heads won't even be seen by others because of the Avatar Complexity scores that these current mesh heads produce.

Etheria Parrott wrote: I knew you were busy. I've applied scale and use translations both in the export of the model and the skeleton but I had forgotten this for the animation I made so your reply helped a lot. There is some improvement when playing the animation but the eyes are on huge long stalks and the head is squashed in. I'll experiment some more. I've seen this exact same thing, and the reason for it was that the eyes never had an animation setting the eyes in place. Luckily, my run animation contains eye animation, and running would put the eyes where they should be. All that said, I would think the default positions we set up our meshes in, should set the eyes. I also have this happen with facial bones, as I don't have any facial animation in my stand animations. It would be nice if just our default bone positions would set everything for us.

Theresa Tennyson wrote: Before the final Bento skeleton is released, could you please correct the issue where the breast collision bones swing to the side at sizes smaller than 50? It still occurs with the current Bento project viewer: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-6069 This makes breast sizes much below 50 basically unusable with fitted mesh avatars and correcting it shouldn't break content because fitted mesh avatars and clothing are rigged to the bones so they'd pick up the change automatically. Take note that the jira is closed. Can you give us screen shots of this behavior, as I've not seen it.

How many triangles is your mesh made out of?

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: I wasn't talking about new mesh creations.. Polysail was saying that Bento would lower the ARC of existing mesh avs.. I was asking how.. She never did give a straight answer on that. Just a guess, but I think she was saying that if existing mesh avatars were remade using Bento, then they would be much more efficient. There is nothing in Bento that would just magically make old content more efficient. That said, I'm sure some of the calculations for Avatar Complexity have been adjusted since before bento, so it might seem like bento made some of them more efficient.

Teager, outside of actually testing this, I think it's a great idea, and would really make these new bones much more compatible for everyone. I'm not so sure about side to side and front to back, but just scaling as a general rule for these new bones would be great.