Mr Amore
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Posts posted by Mr Amore
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54 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:
Architecturally, there are a number of roadblocks and add layers of complexity that turn any involved project into an impossible one.
Story based quest driven game - The shared experience demands that everything look the same for everyone all the time. You approach an NPC and there is no way to indicate they have something for you that's relevant to your personal progression though the story. NPC's must always be in the same location for everyone all the time. Collectable items will always be shown even if you have collected them, or don't need to see them because they aren't relevant yet.
Any action / adventure based game - Server side physics adds a huge round trip latency to everything. Combat becomes a janky mess, timing based elements are impossible, everything has to be made extra sloppy to make up for the player being 'an amount' of time out of sync with what's actually happening on the server. NPC elements tend to slide around disconnected from the setting feeling robotic and jerky, player agency is destroyed when their own personal experiences don't align with whatever the server thinks happened, players are forced to "aim ahead" and direct their interactions at the place where they think the server will be a moment ahead of time (duration of a moment is based on connection and distance from server).
SL certainly has its performance limitations, and with those interesting perspectives you've highlighted the immersion breaking points. From what I've observed, live-action combat systems are SL's weakness, yet it's the system everyone wants to invest in. Generally because they haven't been exposed to the alternatives.
Where can we go without live action combat and all its ills?
I'm of the opinion SL's strength is in creating environments for roleplaying, which could also enable turn-based combat. It's happened on some sims, but they've barely scratched the surface of what's possible. The average RP sim with an SL experience will use its teleportation and HUD attachment functionality, but little else. And when it comes to turn-based PvE combat, it's still messy and done manually because the systems aren't integrated.
Why aren't RP sims going all the way? Either it's an absence of vision, ignorance of SL's capabilities, lack of scripters to code it, lack of mesh creators, but probably a combination of everything.
In a turn based combat system SL begins to shine, it has excellent support for communities and socialization, and all of its performance-based concerns cease to matter. When a system like this comes together, those 'story based quest driven games' won't need to be static environments always rezzed on a sim, but can be deployed as and where you want them, to be played through by you and your friends.
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The plot thickens... 😮
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17 hours ago, animats said:
SL is not that good as a social space. You can have the above experience in Second Life. Just go to Social Island 10. It's awful.
Something is fundamentally wrong with group conversational interaction in SL. Discuss.
(Search for "meeting in VRchat" to see what it's like over there. It's much more lively.)
I think it's how SL has matured with an older demographic, most of anyone I know is 30+ (It's also why I prefer SL to other games.)
Whilst on these recent platforms the younger audience interact differently. From VR Chat's youtube postings it always looks lively and chaotic, far too fun for SL's stuffy residents.
In SL, men engage less with other men, as women do with other women. Which I've always found unusual. Don't these people have male friends in RL? And there's the unfortunately prevalent attitude that men must be 'silent, brooding alpha males' at any location which further stifles social interaction.
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1 hour ago, Out Jinx said:
SL has the potential to be fun with roleplay, point and click mysteries, FPS combat, and everything in between, but it's locked behind these outdated limitations that work against content creators harder than it helps when compared to other creation platforms like VRChat or Roblox. We have the community, we have the talent, the market, and the community pays that talent generously to the point where they can make a living off SL. However, I can't express how difficult it is to work with SL and the amount of hoops needed to be jumped to make anything basic look like it works.
I absolutely agree with this, SL has so much potential to host any genre of gaming and the SL Experience adds incredible functionality... but... it's a ton of work. I know many people, with many ideas, but either they can't script it, or mesh it, or texture it, or animate it. LL provides the toolset, but there's no support or even guidance from a development environment to help them along.
So I'm sorry for bringing up Roblox, it's not a game I'm interested in. I'd just like for LL to look at their(and Core's) Studio for creators and consider something similar for SL, along with 'instanced regions' we can access on demand to rez these creations.
I used to game in the 2000s, but nothing compared to SL's combination of Roleplay + Gaming + Community.
The last I actively 'gamed' to the point of regular sparring, was exactly 10 years ago at a Capua themed sim inspired from the Spartacus TV show. The sim hosted a large stadium, with 100 avatars present during the weekly tournaments. Around 60 spectators in the stands and 40 gladiators in the arena. I don't feel these numbers would be possible now as they were in 2011.
And as one of those gladiators in the arena, I can say the combat flowed smoothly enough that I was winning a string of tournaments and holding both the arena's titles. Because when you have a hundred people on sim claiming to be the best swordsmen... there can only be one! The cost was sleeping at 5am, and going to work at 8am, but having this secret online life as a gladiator was always amusing to me.
The point is, those were the last years of real combat activity in SL. Then raiding in Gor died and I think the SLMC scene was withering too. There's probably a cocktail of reasons why they never recovered, but Roleplaying+Gaming was still the pinnacle of immersion for me. It's an experience which should be open to anyone.
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17 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:
I was able to get logged in, but it doesn't look like my inventory got sync'd or maybe only partially sync'd. Anyway, it used to be that if you deleted inventory items in the beta grid inventory then your inventory would re-sync overnight. I did some cleanup of items there, so now I'll see if it does re-sync overnight before I open a ticket.
I'd be interested in hearing your findings. I haven't needed to sync with the main grid before, but it's good to know!
Not that I can even login yet, possibly issues arising from a name change during the past months.
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Forgive the revival of an old thread, but has there been an update on uploading 30 second sound files. Is it still on the horizon?
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It's not about being more like them, Evah, but giving creators more tools in SL and making it simpler to share content.
So far as virtual concerts go, this will be tough to beat:
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8 hours ago, Exavor Diesel said:
I think the next best thing (and most practical) would be for SL to be web browser based and do much of the rendering on their servers. They could then stream content to users to their device(s) via a web browser.
This happened once with 'SL Go', but streaming games is still a niche experience. It won't become mainstream until the 2030s.
4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:An environmental studio that makes game landscape is not the same thing as inworld building tools or the ability to import and monetarize content on the platform itself in its own context. And there isn't a reason to pretend SL excels at this. Everything shown in the Roblox video making the landscape can be done in SL and done better and without skills, by buying pre-set models in the user economy.
If Roblox takes 75% and not even just the 30% that Apple takes, then I don't know why we are even having this conversation. LL takes 10% on the Marketplace and nothing inworld.
I randomly took the Fantasy Faire videos because they are a concentrated effort to cover all the 21 sims in that short-lived even that is heavily laded with content and traffic. There are thousands of others that show of SL on YouTube where there isn't "stuttering". Even with it, you can see the environment is superior because you can really live in and also make money.
I liked landscaping in SL, there's a ridiculous amount of trees, rocks and animals in my inventory. When I was actively building it could takes weeks to complete a scene, but eventually they would be deleted to make space for another.
There are drastic considerations between building on the ground, or for a skybox. There's no SL water in the sky, your swimming AO and vehicles generally will not function for prim water. Then the terrain mesh may come with exotic physics models, and you are limited to those static shapes.
It's clearly not the same as demonstrated in Roblox Studio where they have natural terrain and water features for a skybox. And the asset browser, the background and environment settings are all a nice touch too. Yes, you can do this in SL, it's just more expensive, less intuitive and next to impossible to distribute as the scenes you make are generally no-transfer.
So the question we arrive at is, how often have you messaged a friend and said, "I've just completed this scene, rez it on your land and see." Or how often have your friends sent you some fancy environmental creation of theirs? This generally isn't possible in SL, where we travel to one another's sims to see their builds - but - we cannot share them.
Every modern metaverse will capitalize on user creativity and encourage them to share(Free content!).
From SL, I've learned to script and mesh and it's nice to see them functioning inworld. And yes, SL touts itself as an Educator's world, but how active are those sims? Back in March I attended the 'Virtual Worlds Best Practices in Education' conference, videos of which are available at their youtube channel.
I only learned of the conference this year by someone posting in the wrong chatgroup. And the fact that many of their videos have less than 50 views is indicative of how well LL have promoted the event. I am not taking digs at LL here, but if you promote your platform as being a tool for educators you have some obligation to support them too.
For anyone interested, here's one of the streams from the event:
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1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:
It's helpful in these discussions to actually look at the much ballyhooed Roblox. To anyone in SL, it looks impossibly primitive -- like Fisher Price toys. What the company hypes here is -- guess what, first-person shooters, fighting, and speed chasing. Along the way, you get a glimpse of a chalet or a Japanese torii gate, but they are like backdrops and they, took, are made out of building blocks which gives it a Tinker Toy or Lego effect.
Compare and contrast with SL. Just take this series from Fantasy Faire. It is literally worlds apart.
That Fantasy Faire video appeared to be stuttering from performance issues, but it's the interpolation from the camera's path. And that random observation aside...
I'm by no means lamenting the graphical superiority of Roblox over SL! It's not a game I'm interested in playing.
However, search for Roblox Studio on youtube for a look at their environment creation tools. That's something I would like for SL, or anything similar to it. Core (by Manticore) have developed a similar studio for their system.
These are aimed at games, but we could use them to create environments in SL too. The trouble with SL is, we tend to think of our builds as permanent spaces, when they could be temporary scenes-on-demand.
A look at Roblox Studio:
And a second link, laughably sponsored by GameMaker Studio.
The TLDR is, Roblox are gouging 75% from their game developers, who take home just 25% of their earnings. It is undeniably obscene.
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On 7/30/2021 at 1:49 PM, Coffee Pancake said:
Notable (and entirely false) reasons for SL's lack of growth include;
- poor graphics (it's our fault)
- poor performance (it's our / the programmers fault)
- adult content (those damn perverts)
- it's economy (how can LL make more money if they keep giving it us!)
- absence of buzzwords (blockchains, VR, etc)
- marketing (but .. no one will join if LL don't advertise)
- complexity & viewer UI (SL is hard and people are feeble / busy)
- new user experience (worse than feeble? .. )
- and others.
These are real issues in need of addressing among others. Growth will come from new residents entering the game, but in that first hour they need an incentive to stay and not be confounded by the disaster that is the V3 UI. When I first installed SL around 2006, it was a smooth experience with an intuitive UI.
Recently I installed the official viewer again... and I was confused. The search wasn't working(couldn't find my own avatars), the UI was too busy with icons everywhere, the friend's panel is an absolute nightmare to navigate. LL doesn't need to reinvent the interface, they just need to restore it to V1, back when it just worked.
New residents aren't reaching the point of discovering TPVs, they're installing the official viewer... and uninstalling it after ten minutes of nausea.
Another detriment is the cost of entry, creating an avatar now is upwards of $100 and that's just to get started. If LL were to create a couple of BoM enabled mesh bodies, like the Ruth 2.0, it's an incentive for new residents. The developer kits for these bodies would be available for all and introduce even more residents to rigging attachments.
I don't fault LL for attempting a new project, Sansar recognized SL's limitations. Their mistake was betting on VR, over mobile. When any analyst could have told them, VR will continue to be a niche product until the 2030s when battery and hardware improvements will make headsets viable for all. Meanwhile, mobile devices are in every home. IMVU and Roblox targeted mobile users and they're reaping the benefits.
SL's real advantage is the talent of its creators, Second Life's avatars are easily the most diverse of any game. When the new 'metaverses' launch, they will be optimized for mobile and VR too, so SL will hold its aesthetic lead for years to come. But eventually there will be talent-drain of creators from SL to more profitable platforms. That alone should be LLs main concern because the creators keep this game afloat. When they're gone, it sinks.
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Since the 'uplift' to the cloud, I've wanted to see instanced regions which are:
- Online when you need them
- Offline and off the grid when you're gone.
- Disconnected from other sims with no neighbors, perhaps not even part of the world map.
LL could trial new technologies in 'instanced sims' without worrying about breaking old content, such as larger sims.
And there could be a pay-as-you-go pricing structure, for instance paying $60/month for a sim I've used for 40 hours makes more sense than $200'ish for a sim I'll use for 40 hours/month.
Sansar had the right idea with instanced 'Experiences', it should be possible in SL too.
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When virtual worlds are discussed we rarely see Second Life mentioned now because it's considered a failure.
And you may protest a steady performance of 40,000 concurrent users, a respectable figure for any game. And that is the issue, this number hasn't grown in over a decade.
Meanwhile Roblox, which is almost as old as SL, measures its concurrent users in the millions. The game was largely promoted by its demographic, mostly children play it and introduce others to Roblox in their schools. But their support for creators, building tools and ease of deploying content in the world make SL look prehistoric by comparison.
Disclaimer: I've never installed Roblox and have only seen their building environment from youtbube videos, maybe there are glaring issues I'm not aware of yet it's clearly working for their creators. Meanwhile, SL hasn't had a functional beta grid since last year because that's how deeply LL values its creators.
Going forwards, here's an excerpt from a recent BBC article https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57942909
QuoteBehavioural data
"Part of the reason Facebook is so heavily invested in VR/AR is that the granularity of data available when users interact on these platforms is an order of magnitude higher than on screen-based media," Verity McIntosh, a VR expert at the University of the West of England, told the BBC.
"Now it's not just about where I click and what I choose to share, it's about where I choose to go, how I stand, what I look at for longest, the subtle ways that I physically move my body and react to certain stimuli. It's a direct route to my subconscious and that is gold to a data capitalist.
"It seems unlikely that Facebook will have an interest in changing a business model that has served them so well to prioritise user privacy or to give users any meaningful say in how their behavioural data in the 'metaverse' will be used."
Tech giants like Facebook defining and colonising the space, while traditional governance structures struggle to keep up with the technological change could cause further issues, she added.
It really is the evolution of the virtual world, where the host is mining every little detail. The place an avatar faces, the object its focused onto, every word written, every surface touched, all of it permanently associated with a real identity. This marks the transition of the Internet into a new era of creepy.
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Objects rezzed on no-script land are unable to communicate at all.
It's only a factor for objects which can serve a purpose without their scripted features.
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@arabellajones When I was using Manjaro, Firestorm installed without a hitch from the AUR. Voice was also working without additional steps.
Other distros may require some tweaking to get voice on, I don't normally use SL Voice, it's not something I look for.
But I do miss running Catznip on Linux!
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'Several weeks' have turned into several months and is steadily creeping up to a year, before LL will pull a resource away from their latest money spinner(Lastname sales), to spend a minute addressing the Aditi issue.
I was able to access the beta-grid up until this month, now it no longer recognizes my login/pass. So if you have access now don't assume you will keep it!
Maybe restricting Aditi access has become a side hustle for LL, after 8 months of thumb twiddling it's clearly not a priority and I'm not holding my breath for a resolution any time soon.
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What does Second Life need for sustainable growth?
New Players.
What happens to new players who install the Second Life viewer?
They are traumatized by the harrowing UI experience and uninstall it 30 minutes later.
I recently used the official viewer and even as a seasoned SL'er, I was lost. The interface is confusing and the search was utterly dysfunctional. Telling new residents to install Firestorm is not the answer, most will never stay in the game long enough to learn about TPVs.
Nothing will change until LL rollback the hideous changes to the official client and finally trash the 'web search' panel. Even reviving the SL client from a decade ago would result in a cleaner first-time-user experience than the present.
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Only in SL will you find a thriving ecosystem of pretenders and patsies.
The 'pretenders' aren't particularly inventive or clandestine by nature, they don't need to be, they are precisely the partner persons of a certain disposition are seeking.
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In almost every case I've encountered an adequate Homestead build, the community begins to grow, the management take that fateful step to a full sim. And a couple of months later it all comes crashing down. It's been a predictable pattern since Homesteads became available.
Once LL have completed their transition to the Amazon cloud, there will probably be an adjustment in tiers and more flexibility in options. I wouldn't expect anything before then.
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11 minutes ago, roseelvira said:
part of the ridge and there is still another big open red square on top of the other part i am so confused as to how all this works ,,,, and all i kept getting was the older generation on my page sigh ,,,, its ok a house poped up but said sold out ,,,, but its all good ,,, what will be will be ,,,,
Just keep an eye on this thread for tips on the next release date, and you will get one.
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Thanks Raeleeh. They make it sound so simple on the website, this is what you're subscribing for:
QuoteWe're Sorry...
The theme and house selection you have chosen is temporarily sold out. Please select another combination and then try again.
Secondlife.com | My Account
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Zuckerberg Comes for the Metaverse
in General Discussion Forum
Posted
We're basically the developing nation of virtual worlds. Our priorities are centered on the bare necessities and less so the luxuries other games can afford.
Content creation groups and RP sims have resorted to using Discord since the group chat issues. It is embarrassing.
I see SL as a social space with gaming features. Whilst the likes of Roblox and Fortnite are games with social features. And the community in SL is strong, when Sansar happened very few people even went to see it. Because their friends are in SL, they had no incentive to leave.
LL could adopt other features from Sansar keep SL relevant in the face of Megacorp Metaverses:
It'll never become a 'gaming' platform, but some controls over content optimization could make mobile and VR viable in the future.