Drayke Newall

To be honest, not sure what you mean. LL in the past have released all their content relating to their bodies to the wiki with no application process. You can go to their wiki now and download all the bento skeletons, system avatar meshes, etc. There is zero reason as to why Linden Lab should have an application process to download if all their previous content has been free to download before. Now if the application process is as simple as agreeing to user agreement to not distribute outside of SL then fine, though no person would call that an application process. If, however, it is giving examples of past experience of work or as mesh body creators now have it in that you have to have a store first, then that is a serious problem as you are gimping the content creation process for new content of the body and limiting the potential creators of clothing for the body on an already narrowing creator interest. Previously it was stated by lindens that the dev kit would be available to everyone. The notion that there is an application process however goes against that as, the definition of an 'application process' means a person can be rejected. Hopefully, it is just bad wording and such a process is just agreeing to contracts, though the more that is coming out about this body the more worrying it gets that content for it will be limited.

Likewise. What is worrying though is Patch's response that there is an 'application process' that will be made public 'imminently' to obtain the Dev Kits. Why is an application process needed at all? Why not just release the files for everyone like they have in the past with no application needed. I.E. on the wiki to download.

There is no list provided anymore. Only solution is to go to the destination guide and search gateway. The issue with this is that the search is only based on keyword as there is no category. Search Destinations (secondlife.com) The other option is to select 'Help & How To' category and then select 'Newcomer Friendly Spots' and there are more listed there. I dont think this is all the gateways and the category also has non gateway regions as well. Newcomer Friendly Spots | Second Life Destinations

No matter what happens with the current alpha system it will always be complicated and not work due to how LL have set up their channels, it is also a very old method of how to go about hiding things under an object. Additionally, like you said, even if the alpha is permanently linked to the mesh object like I mentioned in the before solution you are still relying on a content creator to get the alpha right. This however is something that is going to happen no matter what method is used as SL is a user driven creation system. The only other possible way for Linden Lab to solve the issue (and the best way to fix the issue) is to remove the need to use alpha layers on worn mesh objects entirely and make their use only situational (rarely used). To do this LL would need to allow for shape deformation to be allowed on individually worn mesh objects. Basically what this would mean is that a content creator would be able to create a jacket and then have that jacket able to deform the mesh under it or have the mesh deform based on the mesh under it. This requires additional effort at a creation point of view but for the end user it would basically mean you can wear multiple layers without them ever hitting each other. This is called wrap deforming and has been around for well over a decade. We do have a form of mesh deforming in Second Life such as being able to wear an invisible object that can make a tail longer or shorter even if it is rigged, however, nothing where you can deform mesh individually based on layers. For example, wear a mesh shirt and it deforms the shirt to the shape of the body and then wear a mesh jacket and it deforms the jacket to match the mesh shirt ensuring that there is a slight 'airgap' between. If such deformation was possible it would solve all of the alpha issues and many complexities a new user has as it would mean that rather your body being fit to suit the jacket, the jacket is fitted to your body shape. i.e. jacket may be smaller than your arm thickness so by alphaing your arms you are not keeping your actual shape whereas with wrap deforming your jacket matches the thickness of your arm shape keeping your true shape.

I agree that UI changes are definitely needed to improve the system and like Qie mentioned I thought they were doing something with the viewer and these bodies with the UI in mind. I am sure I heard something about better sliders adjustments, etc. Perhaps I heard wrong, though it would explain the shape issues people have said they are having. That all said, it also comes down to just basics. For example, in Second Life to wear a mesh jacket it either has to be oversized to fit over the body to not have skin showing through when animated or use an alpha layer, the later being the preferred for better fit. The problem is, that to achieve this a content creator needs to include with their jacket folder an alpha cut (and lets face it many dont). Now it may seem a simple thing but it not only adds unnecessary increase to the inventory with every outfit needing perhaps 5 different alpha layers but also adds complexity to an already complex avatar customisation system and that's, as mentioned, if an alpha cut is included with the clothing item. Why hasn't some method been made for a creator that creates a mesh jacket to permanently link the alpha to the jacket so that when that jacket is worn it auto hides the relevant parts? This would not only improve inventory management and space but also mean that a new person (or existing user) doesn't need to worry about having to do that step. There is so much unnecessary complexity in the avatar customisation system and for no reason. Some games have far more complex customisation systems but they dont feel complex as, the tedious things are done automatically.

Nope not one person has said "oh this place where I started was great, learnt a lot". The only purpose the gateways have that are different to the WelcomeHub areas is that LL allow you to have a api on your website for your community so that a person can click that "join SL now" button and you can sign up and join SL through that website. The trouble is the gateways can only function as a starting tutoral welcomehub area nothing more. I think the gateways should be operated in a different way to what they are. Linden Lab should have the WelcomeHubs as the default starting point. Now, despite my reservations about how the tutorials and set-up of them is, at least they get the mentors, and a standard starting experience, etc. The gateways should be treated as the next step from there. So where people have been suggesting portals to differing communities, those portals should lead to the gateways of those communities. Have the portals similar to Linden Realm portal area, all nice etc and you theme the paths accordingly. If you are interested in Scifi RP, you go to the scifi portal area on the region and its portals tp you to places that have listed themselves for that gateway, want exploring, portals to those. These gateways should also have requirements, new user avatars are allowed, free items offered to get them started and must always be active in some way. The other bonus to this is it can also serve as a direct avenue to join a specific community or activity straight from a website. So say someone searches 'zombie virtual world game' in google, a 'gateway community' for 'Zombie Land' might show up. From there the person can look at the zombie game website and see it looks like a cool game. They then click "Join Now' and using a modified SL account creation api they can select an in theme (or that gateway community made) avatar and spawn directly into that Zombie World and basically have their new user experience treated for what they are directly looking for (with no standard SL tutorial) and literally just play the game from the start as if they were logging in to play a actual game like seven days to die. If done right, some might not even realise it is second life other than the need to use the viewer.

I fear that will be the case as well and that is what a lot of the issue with the current system avatars is as well. Due to second life being a majority existing userbase, content creators cater to that. That is why you dont see stores selling nice mesh clothes riggged for system avatars but high end mesh bodies. Unless their is a massive release of non linden lab created clothing, skin, hair, eyes, tattoos etc for the new NUX avatars they will be treated the same way. Because new users want that experience of shopping for clothes etc if it isnt there right alongside the clothes for top mesh bodies, the same stigma and pressure to upgrade early on will remain.

I fear that will be the case as well and that is what a lot of the issue with the current system avatars is as well. Due to second life being a majority existing userbase, content creators cater to that. That is why you dont see stores selling nice mesh clothes riggged for system avatars but high end mesh bodies. Unless their is a massive release of non linden lab created clothing, skin, hair, eyes, tattoos etc for the new NUX avatars they will be treated the same way.

The sad thing is that a lot of new users (I would say the vast majority) do feel pressured to spend that much. There is a stigma in SL that if you dont have the top mesh body, head, etc that you are a 'noob' and treated as such even down to some places wont let you in their region like RP sims etc. Fingers crossed the NUX avatar fixes this but I think a lot is riding on these NUX avatars to fix a myriad of issues with the onboarding and new user experience and I'm not sure it can fix all of them.

I dont think anyone would argue with you or that statement about money spent in games, though most new players to any game will not spend money straight away on in game content. They will first play some of it to see if they are going to have fun. That is where the problem lies In those games you can get enjoyment out of it from the get go with easy avatar customisation and instant gratification as you are entertained the moment you start playing. With Second Life you have a long process from the start to get to a point where you feel comfortable with your appearance, work out where to go (and how to get there) etc. Additionally, when they spend money on those items they are a wear and forget purchase. They dont need to worry whether it will fit certain bodies, work out how to buy it from the multiple ways to buy something, find it in the inventory and work out how to add it right etc. Lets also not forget that the one thing SL is known for is a place to make money. It is right there on the homepage of Second Life's website after all. I would assume many come to Second Life with that knowledge and from that form the opinion that they can make money to spend without needing to actually purchase it with RL money. Hence why it's never asked how can I buy money (they know that from the tutorial where it has a ginormous sign saying buy lindens click here) but, how can I make money.

Because as I said, they are not interested in oversight of the gateway program or providing any standard to it. So long as you meet the criteria such as have a tutorial section and be an active community for 1 year prior. Thats all they care about. You also need a full region but that is only due to traffic size. That doesn't equate to "tutorial or new user experience needs to be the full region". This isn't me bashing the Lindens or Moles. It is just simply how it has been. Even when the gateway program existed pre 2010 (when it was first stopped - was only re-introduced in 2017) it was the same. No matter the viewer, where the user is located in the world or what they are looking to get out of SL after they leave any of the welcome areas, you will go to random places. ETA: Wouldn't it be better if you are located in Greece your IP shows that and you are connected to a region that has the tutorials (exactly the same as the LL WelcomeHub) in Greek where mentors that are Greek or willing to help in Greek can be stationed. Would certainly solve the issue that someone posted earlier (perhaps was you Persephone) where they were asking if there was anyone that spoke Greek. Would certainly also help the mentors in trying to post in local to direct people who speak 'x' language to go over 'there' for help etc. It even goes down to basic things like localisation of the second life viewer. Are all languages offered to users when they download the viewer or is the viewer just always in English? ETA Again: Just in case people are not aware, you are also required to have a website. If someone joins SL through your community website they will automatically be sent to that community gateway and will be auto added to your group etc. This however works out in the end to be pointless as the majority of new users will go through the LL website.

Yep, wouldn't surprise me in the least. They are at most times shockingly bad as there is no oversight offered by LL for them to meet any quality standard.

It is completely random where you get sent to hub wise. I would dare say that the WelcomeHub is higher up on the list but there is a chance, no matter the viewer, you will go to another hub. Of those community gateway hubs the tutorial area could be as little as walk forward, fly up and exit. So long as it meets the 'have tutorials' in the guideline they can be as little or small as you want. The gateways also cant have LL mentors stationed on them nor any LL content such as the videos at the WelcomeHub and rely solely on the region owner group to provide the mentors of which a lot just dont bother with so they are usually empty like Alwin experienced. Many are also never updated so chances are the tutorials are outdated for things like EEP etc. The reason why many of them only have a small fraction of their region dedicated to the 'new user' is due to LL offering no subsidy for regions that are listed as community gateways and therefore most have other things on the region to help support them that may scare off new users or detract from the new user experience. Such as the tutorial being in a skybox.

So you say that it was a legit response. So please tell me how that person can create something for SL and sell it on the MP when you need Lindens to upload textures, upload mesh, POI on file, etc. The days of being able to competitively make money in SL as a brand new user by creating and selling on MP are long gone. At most, they could use free in world textures (not many around any more) to create system clothing or prim builds. The later of which will net you 0 sales. Many of these new users are used to earning money in a game by doing activities, etc. A better response would have been go to Linden Realms, but even then LL nerfed that to oblivion so you cant even earn much free lindens that way for them to buy something decent. Sad to say even this is getting rare in Second Life now where people are offering 'free' things for $1L or now charging lindens to join their group to get those free items. The other issue is that those free items usually require L$5000 body to use. Hopefully NUX will fix a lot of those issues and places like Freebie galaxy and the like will come back to life with good modern content for those avies that match the quality of what is offered for the other bodies.

Well there you go, never knew that. When I talked to Torly Linden about them years ago he too suggested they were viewer side. Good that you managed to keep them by converting it to viewer rendering though. Still wish some form of cloud was introduced with EEP, but then I also wanted many other things included in that as well. Considering that the clouds in your viewer are rendered all viewer side, I am surprised LL havent tried to do the same.

Oh, 100% agree. There is a vast difference between a simple furry avie (even like those ones on the home page) and a full modded one. The trouble is though, even a simplistic modern furry avatar at the very least requires digi legs, head, human body, skin, hair, paws and ears if the head didnt come with one. So there is still complexity to it. And yes nux furry when! I think though patch mentioned they are looking into furry nux part possibilities ... \o/.

I think this is needed. Especially when the latest marketing campaign highlights that culture in SL. Think there should also be representation with other more niche cultures in SL as new users will join for different reasons and if a mentor cant help them in directing them to what they joined for then that is bad for retention as they are left to wander the depths of SL alone until they work out how to find it. I would hope there are some furry mentors out there however, I have not seen any when I have visited in the past. I know when I was over at the WelcomeHub the other day on my Furry avatar some new user asked me how to go about getting a similar look. I wish I could tell them something like 'oh, just go to this shop and they have them to buy everything included' like it was in the older days with DSD, KZK, Derp, etc and then pop over to Chimera mod mall for all the extras to get the look but these days it isn't simple for furry avatars. When I started saying they need to buy this mesh head, that human body, this skin mod, that tail, these ears, those horns, these digi legs/paws, etc, all from different stores and sometimes only on MP you could see the disappointment gradually appearing in their IM's back in the fact that it is simply a mess and to hard to try achieve something like that so early on. I helped as much as I could in giving them a list of where to go to look at complete avies and another list on where to get parts but there still needs to be a central area for new users to be able to go to get some form of satisfaction in being able to create a decent furry avie if that is what they are after. Having a furry mentor and with that some furry representation in the shopping area at the WelcomeHub would go along way.

If I remember correctly, Linden Lab's less than cryptic term for saying the volunteer system didn't work due to the scheduling issues and other issues they wanted to keep hidden, was that 'we are closing the mentor program due to scaling issues'. Everyone knew why it was closing, LL just didn't want to admit that the organisation side of it and oversight failed (both things they were in control of) so the business term 'scaling' was used.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone's ideas. I, and I bet most people here, have no issue with that. We all have our own opinions on things. Just like I dont agree with some of your ideas, yet thought your post above about dedicated mentors per user was a good idea. The problem comes when all suggestions/feedback are knocked down to the point where flame wars starts and insults fly, however minor and then certain users start turning the topic off topic to close it down. Just state your disagreement and move on and let those that want to continue to contribute to a thread about improvements or noting down issues people find (such as this thread) discuss, hoping one day Lindens will look at the thread and at least discuss the suggestions at their offices. That all said, there is a trend in these forums of late (and earlier) where all of those things Paul mentioned and more are automatically targeted and comes across very much like the users in this forum are against change or any feedback/suggestion offered. This to the point where the forums are getting threads made here and in other places about the stifling of any criticism, feedback or suggestion. The 'g' word and its variations is such taboo in these forums it leaves people frothing at the mouth in every thread it is mentioned even if it isn't compared or used to describe SL. I am over it all and would like to just continue to discuss the points raised and continue to keep the thread on topic rather than derail a good thread further.

I've basically experienced the same the few times I've gone over there to have a look see. Generally other than the issues animats raised in his OP and a few other issues I raised in other threads that shan't be named, the Mentor's have been doing great. If however there are territorial issues between existing users trying to help and mentors, then that, as I have said needs to be fixed, before it gets worse. This could be a simple fix for now as what the moles have been doing, moving the existing residents away from the area, but that cant be the long term fix as you will still get the issues Abnor raised about what mentors were complaining about. AKA what happened in the past at the welcome and help islands. That has been my stance in all my posts, so dont know why people are assuming I am saying other things, such as to get rid of the mentors.

I'm not the one that keeps coming into a thread about 'notes on the welcomehub' and how to improve it and causing arguments because you feel no existing resident has a right to comment on the mentor system or welcomehub because in your own words 'we dont use it'. Dont like the conversation here, dont read it. Dont like my posts about feedback and suggestions feel free to use the block command on me. Good grief, how have these forums in the past few months come to a point where discussion about feedback or suggestions for improvement of SL cant be had because people just jump down peoples throats at the mere suggestion of feedback, suggestions, highlighting potential issues arising from the past, etc. PS, I highly doubt any mentor will comment on such things in these forums. If it is anything like the old mentor group there were rules against such things.

No, we just have two posts stating that they were 'aggressive' and 'rude' in front of new users or in IM's to existing users i.e. saying in local chat to 'not talk over them'. You also have a Mole coming in saying they have had issues of Mentors reporting 'residents' who in their opinion are undermining their position as a mentor. I can read just fine and can also put two and two together. All I know is it is clear to older residents and old mentors around back then that such fighting and reporting of users etc to LL was a huge problem and why the old mentors got a bad name as having a superiority complex with the 'mentor' tag going to their heads. Hence why, as I have only indicated in in this thread, this attitude needs to be stamped out from the start before it goes further otherwise it will fester. ETA: Hope Alwin doesn't mind me responding to this part you directed at him, but yes it does directly concern us regular users. We want to see SL improve, we want it to grow. Every aspect of that venture in improving Second Life, bringing in new users etc, is a concern to all residents even those that do not use the mentor program.

What are you on about. Abnor even confirmed in this thread that one of the main issues of the past is already happening. Existing users stepping on the toes of Mentors and Mentors starting to get aggressive. I'll quote him: That said, we have also heard complaints from Mentors as well who feel some residents enter the Welcome Hub more intent on undermining their efforts by "proving they know more" than actually helping new residents. Now whether that undermining is deliberate or just existing users trying to be helpful who knows (though is suspect it to be the latter based on the examples given here). What we do know though from the horses mouth is that a KEY reason why the old mentor system was abandoned is also happening now. You have heard their thoughts on the matters discussed in this thread, in an official stance none the less. That those existing helpful users mentioned in this thread as getting into an argument with the mentors is happening and they are annoyed due to apparently 'undermining their efforts by "proving they know more" than actually helping new residents'.

I am not saying it should be stopped at all. Mentorship was one of the best things in SL even down to the buddy system, when it worked. There is a reason why 2007-2010 was the peak concurrency for Second Life. The mentor program was one of the reasons for that. I like many other old mentors and users have been wanting it back for years, however the old system was flawed. Ask any old mentor even those forum users that regularly disagree with me on many topics. They will say the same. The old system was flawed in many ways but none of them will say due to that not to have the mentor program back again. They will however say that the flaws need to be fixed. Those same flaws that people have already stated in this thread as happening again. ETA: Just because someone wants something to succeed and offers suggestions and feedback as to how that could be achieved or shows how flaws are similar to old flaws that saw a program stopped doesn't mean a person wants it to be removed. It goes the same for how to improve the WelcomeHub tutorial. Many people hounded those of us in the other threads, even down to making a forum regular and TPV creator to leave the forums entirely, because we suggested that the tutorial needed to be more objective orientated or 'gamified' to help retention. Once again, is it a coincidence that the most gamified orientation island (old tutorial regions) known to have existed within Second Life also corresponded with once again the peak of Second Life's concurrency 2007-2010 and its year on year growth from 2007-2010 and how its removal saw the consecutive year on year decline of user retention? Here is how that 2007-2010 tutorial version went all the way down to rewarding stars to people when they completed the objectives. It offered direction, entertainment, engagement, purpose, free items, interactive tutorials. The only thing missing was portals to popular themed areas, but dont worry about that as once you left orientation island and went to welcome island there were all the portals for you. Now imagine that tutorial with modern EEP, Experience tools, Animesh NPC's, animations, mesh, materials, etc with the now expanded WelcomeHub of 8 regions instead of 1. But forget about all that as existing users are to scared that such a 'gamified' tutorial system will adversely affect their experience, despite as shown being effective in retention along with other systems of that time that were likewise removed. Imagine it being themed with something to do with Magellan Linden and his adventures around second life. An actual Linden that was purposely made for Role Play and the history of Second Life. Second Life has a lot of history to go back to and use not to mention learn from. Perhaps Linden Lab should start actually doing such things.

No, I didn't volunteer for the current mentor group as I could already see the exact issues mentioned in this thread happening especially when the area was stated to be open to everyone. Just like other old mentors have basically said the same as to why they likewise were not registering. I have simply stated that it is following a eerily similar trajectory as the old one. Additionally, I am not the only one to have said so. Like usual though here comes the usual comments, so sure... I am trashing the program. 🙄 All of the issues already raised like dedicated accounts, no existing users allowed, not being volunteers, dedicated chat, etc even down to the problems that are coming to the surface were raised in other threads by other old mentors long ago as well when the new system was announced. This stuff isn't new. It was even all discussed during the old mentor system to fix the issues such as old mentors griefing with their mentor tags on, chat confusion, etc. If they cant be bothered to look up that information themselves, take an interest in what old mentors said as feedback in other threads or Abnor cant be bothered linking Viola into this thread where it is not just me but many others revealing issues with the mentor program then no. IM's are not suited for such long conversations across multiple people, it is why forums exist. I am not against the mentor system, it was good in the past and could be again, but those things of the past that caused the issues need to be hit on the head now and controlled. So if pointing those things out in these forums (which clearly is visited by Moles as Abnor is here) and then suggesting possible better alternatives is 'trashing' the program then that is an odd definition of the term.