Drayke Newall

Which is why some old mentors said it shouldn't be voluntary. Give the old Mentors some credit in understanding and pointing out the issues that happened in the past. If they are suggesting to do something a certain way, there is a reason for it.

Fair enough. Still seems to be a lot of stepping on each others toes going around though, especially if the Moles are getting reports of it. That is the main issue and was in the past. No, we should expect that. The same problem existed in the old mentor system as well where there were no mentors at the region to help. That despite the old mentor group having well over 3000 registered mentors in the group. The problem came about in the past because you only needed to 'volunteer' your 2 hours and that could be any time. So you would have a situation where 1000 of those volunteers were on at the same time and logged off at the same time therefore meaning not everyone of those mentors could put in their '2 hours' and the remaining ones couldn't either due to timezones. This resulted in almost all of the remaining 2000 or more volunteers not putting in their hours and just giving up. Consequently LL started to kick inactive members out and rehire new ones but not fixing the fundamental issue. It is all volunteer driven, with no scheduling done for those volunteer's. If a mentor cannot be there at all times, the system will fail as it did in the past and this is why a new user chat system I and others have mentioned in the past and in my post above is the best way to go about it as then they have access to 'official' help at all times from all online members of the mentor system, even if no one is there at the WelcomeHub.

That is why older mentors and residents were suggesting specific accounts like the moles have. Someone already mentioned in this thread that new users should only talk to 'official' mentors, however like the past those new users need to know who is 'official'. A group tag isn't enough as say if a new user goes to their preferences and decides to turn off group tags, not knowing what it is. In doing so they turn off any hint of seeing who is 'official'. Not to mention the amount of times there were impersonator groups made in the past with 'mentor' tag as well. The best solution to all of this is have a dedicated 'new user chat' system that is only visible to new users and mentors where they can ask for help, accessible for 2 months after they rez and is a separate tab green coloured alongside local chat (i.e not group IM but similar). The bonus to this is the new user knows it is official, only those allowed can see it, gives new users instant knowledge of where to get help and is also cross region meaning if other mentors are on but not at the region, those new users can still get help both at the WelcomeHub and for 2 months after leaving the WelcomeHub.

That is what happened the last time as well and why a lot of access to welcome areas (i.e help island) for existing residents was removed. The two dont mesh well and never will. The old VTeam even made videos trying to showcase how volunteers need to act when faced with these issues. They have always been there and was part of the main issues the mentors had in the past. Trip down memory lane - below is one such video released by the VTeam released 2008 at the crux of the issues of the mentor group which still saw it close pretty well much at the end of that year and finally in 2009 for good. Ironically it is to showcase exactly what you said in your first paragraph - act professionally. It didn't help. Older mentors and users warned you of this in previous threads about mentors not having their own dedicated avatars or allowing existing residents there... History is already repeating itself and the program has just started a few weeks ago. A lot more needs to be done than what is or else history will continue to repeat till the end.

You seriously think, such a situation would go past as 'oh, thank you I was wrong let me now message that new user back with the correct information that you passed to me"? No, it would be met with what happened to the other person, "stop talking over me" or more than likely, "I am a mentor I know how to use the Viewer, so stop telling me what to say to people. What I said was correct". Also take note that @Persephone Emerald already stated that the new user had IM'd her already clearly showing they knew that something was wrong with the advise given by the Mentor. @Rowan Amore seemed to have the same situation happen. Not a good start if Mentors are already driving away new users - oddly reminiscent of the old Mentors for the same reason. Perhaps people have forgotten what happened with the mentor program in the past, or were not around then and WHY Linden Lab closed off the welcome areas to existing residents and eventually shuttered the program. Lets do a checklist of things that caused the old mentor group to be ineffective and shutter and see if we are on track of the same by the comments mentioned in this thread: Using local chat to communicate to new users and not IM's which caused new users to not understand who was talking to whom. CHECK No Mentor being around the area to mentor. CHECK. Yes there is a green button, but no new user will ever press it - Persephone even stated that the new user walked away due to no one being there to help. It took an existing regular user to be there to press that button for a mentor to come. So, why wasn't that mentor there from the start? New users being handed out invites to random groups giving them unwanted tags above their head CHECK. Lets hope it wasn't a mentor that gave the group invite as that was an issue in the past as well that caused them to be disbanded. Mentors not knowing how to do things and giving wrong advise leaving it for older residents to give the correct advice. CHECK Mentors, getting territorial. As mentioned by someone else in the thread 'Rogue Mentor' attacks. CHECK. Naked new users not being told how to re-add clothes by mentors. CHECK. Same old, Same old. There needs to be at least some form of understanding of the viewer for any issue that arises so that mis-information isn't provided.

You're surprised? I dont know how people (and LL) expected this new WelcomeHub to be anything but that as It is no different to the previous Welcome areas. Yet when that is stated to be the case or feedback for its improvement in engagement etc is offered the same forum users (and Moles) take offence or think such improvements to make it less boring, complicated, etc., will somehow affect their egos or own SL experience. Plenty has been said in recent and past threads on how to improve the new user experience, even about how to improve the new WelcomeHub. If LL/Moles are unwilling to take that feedback on board, which they have made clear in other threads, what else can be done and what's the point of trying any further if it lands on deaf ears.

If those clouds shown there are rendered by the viewer for that specific scenario (and not a particle effect from a hud), it looks to be the clouds LL removed that existed in SL many moons ago. At least their appearance seems to be the same. Basically, pre windlight days to a little past, second life's viewer had its own generated clouds. These clouds were not generated server side but strictly by the viewer itself, so if someone turned them off it wouldn't affect another persons experience if they had them on. Similar to how the water is rendered in the Crystal Frost viewer I mentioned. These clouds were togglable, however, were removed from Second Life ages ago because they would cause a mere 5-10fps drop if used (on 2013 computer tech mind you) - 5-10!, that's the fps loss of having the chat window open in the viewer now. The windlight clouds I was talking about were integrated into windlight which LL bought and we use now with EEP. LL just decided however to never introduce the cloud, blizzard, dust or rain systems in windlight into SL of which were and still are top quality systems. Consequently, we have to rely on laggy particle and temp prim effects to get the same result. Now, given EEP (windlight update which still uses windlight) has been released and these removed functions not added, I think it is a case of LL just dont know how to add them back in. The actual windlight volumetric clouds are shown in the below vid. Now, what is sad is to compare the above Nimble clouds from 2006 which LL bought the rights to and have had since 2007 and compare it to MS flight simulator 2020 Ultra setting clouds. The nimble clouds look, on par with MS flight simulator 2020. So LL have a tech that is graphically comparable to near Ultra settings of a modern AAA flight sim (certainly of the quality of very high), is stated by WindwardMark in their demonstrations of the cloud system to not be lag intensive, yet Linden Lab simply cant be bothered using it. Here is the comparison below of which I have made the MS FS2020 quality to match the video 360p quality of nimbles video, however, keep in mind the nimble cloud video quality is compressed further due to being so old so isn't a true comparison. It comes back to this whole water topic you started. The tech is all in LL's hands to use and SL could be comparable to modern games. Linden Lab however just have never understood why they should.

As far as I am aware this applies only if the viewer does something that alters the experience of someone not using the viewer itself. For example, make it so that something rezed is only seen by that viewer. That is why Firestorm was allowed to keep parcel windlight (until EEP) or RLV is allowed, god rays, posers etc. All of those 'features' are not available to all viewers but allowed. If for instance the water prim feature in the Crystal Frost viewer only showed that prim in crystal frost and the other viewers didn't see anything (prim not visible at all), then that would be 'affecting someone's experience' as they cannot see an object unless they download Crystal Frost. The fact that the water prim feature in Crystal Frost shows an actual water coloured prim in other viewers means that those that dont choose to use the crystal frost viewer are not negatively impacted as they see what they have always been able to see. A flat prim with a water texture. The only thing the crystal frost viewer does is change the look of that water prim and how it behaves. I agree, it is still very alpha stage as it is literally a rebuild of the entire engine so it will be a waiting game to see or a matter of asking Bunny the creator as to whether it works well.

That's nice. I live in the real world not a fantasy world where LL actually care. They have been asked to do such things since, oh I dont know, 2007ish and have stated plain and simply they will never touch Linden Water other than what it is now. Just like they refuse to re-add back the cloud generation system that was part of windlight in 2006 when they acquired it and would be great for flight simulation, or the storm, rain and fog system that was removed that would be good for both sailing and flight simulation. Just like wanting a water prim to add to pools, lakes or skyboxes has been asked for for about the same time, yet they have constantly said no. So you keep on dreaming for those. I will take the next best thing and rely on a TPV creator that cares to actually make something that has been asked for for over 15 years to make it happen - at least in some form. Not LL. Yet, the OP specifically said he didn't care about surfer waves. They asked whether it is possible for 'swells, waves and chop (not surfer waves) for realism in sailing'. That is to say, what I posted. So sorry that I responded to the question asked by the OP. 🙄

All good, I didn't explain it in detail. The TPV creator has made the water two ways using the Unity KWS Water Asset. First, Linden Water is fully interactable by both avatars and objects. So if any object with a specific 'sploosh' description tag in it moves across Linden Water it will cause ripples, wake etc. The Linden water also has dynamic real waves and ripple effect with the video I posted only showing the low quality water for 'low performance machines' as per the TPV creators notes on the video. The sploosh tag and the impact it has on the water ripple wise etc, is also affected by the object size. So the larger the object the larger the affect on the water. Second, they have created a system where a normal prim can be rezzed and then a specific tag (waterbox) placed in the description. Any person using the Crystal Frost viewer will see that prim as dynamic Linden Water, same texture etc and it will be interactive as well per above. Any person not using the Crystal Frost viewer will see a simple blue water prim like we have now with pools etc. The tags in the description are only there to tell the viewer that the prim is 'Linden Water' or to tell the viewer to render waves, wake, ripple's, etc if needed. Everything is rendered on the viewer side and not server. This means that 'lag' from the water, waves, etc., is based solely on computer performance and the viewer code.

No waves are not part of the simulation just as that video posted shows - Linden Water having waves. It is a rendered effect that is applied viewer side. Objects that float use a script to 'float' on Linden Water which is the only part that the simulator processes. Just like that avatar (its alpha stage hence why the avatar is a cube) can move linden water to create a ripple or wave effect so can any object, even if it utilises a float script like boats do.

Um... you do realise that second vid I posted where the water is moving up and down is not a water prim but actual Linden Water dont you? So you think that water is the same as what you posted? OK then, explain how it works in Linden Water as well then? As per the TPV creators comment: Any object with the tag #SPLOOSH in the description will interact with sim water (AKA Linden Water) and water prims, making waves as it moves. But sure, keep thinking that this is just a sculpt prim with a script in it to tell the object to change the sculpt texture when touched. 🙄

Since when does 'server limitations' have anything to do with water effects in SL? Blame LL's GLACIAL movement in doing any meaningful update to the graphics engine, rendering code, viewer rendering, windlight (removal of features rather than adding), etc or just making a new viewer with a proper modern rendering/graphics engine. As to the op's question... yes it is possible. You will however have to wait for the TPV to be released. A shame a TPV creator team of 1 or 2 can start doing what a 200+ staffed company like LL cant. Here is the water and a new 'water prim' that is shown off in the Crystal Frost viewer alpha - a viewer using unity.

Fair enough and that's your prerogative to say as such. Fully understand and agree that other theories should be looked at. I, coffee and others think differently on Maslow, which is probably very clear by now. ETA Perhaps it is a matter of whether a person has used or referenced Maslow's hierarchy before makes them believe it is correct. I have used it a lot in architecture and other fields, so of course I will believe it works and is correct. That doesn't mean to say I will try to force someone to think the same way, however, in the case of these forums, I as, I believe you do, have the right to at least contribute to the discussion in an effort to edify ourselves on the matter. Who knows through such discussion someone could change my mind. Sadly, it seems this thread is not discussion or learning of the topic but more about outright scorn of others ideas or personalities. So as just like Coffee, I've had enough. Between certain individuals refusing to respond yet continue to tell lies about what I have said when they reply to others, and now some suggesting that I have an mental issue or a mental condition of liking to "beat them up until they agree" it just not worth it. I feel sorry for those that only seem to think such negative things about others. So after this edit, I'm out.

So you can post in an effort to refute my claims without saying you disagree (until now) yet I cant post refuting your claims? Its a discussion forum expect discussion if you post. If you disagree with a post I have posted, say as such and move on, as will I. Just like both Scylla and I agreed to disagree and left it as that. Otherwise expect me or any other person to try and have a discussion with you. That said, you cant also expect someone not to reply when you keep coming back to the topic and reposting over and over trying to refute them or post short posts like "..Maslow's Hierarchy has nothing to do with "Game Theory". Then to say that I have an issue with allowing people disagreeing with me because you continue to come into the thread posting lines like the aforementioned. If you post something expect a response. If you disagree say you do and move on. It is a forum, people can reply to your posts. If you disagree with the entire notion of the thread, with all due respect, leave it and dont post. No wonder Coffee got fed up with the responses and attitudes in this thread and quit the entire forums. That all said, fine agree to disagree.

I have asked you this before and you simply put a laugh emoji on it, which I guess is your attempt to bypass it as you cant find any evidence as such. So I will ask you again, WHERE have I stated in this thread I want to make SL more game like using this theory?

Why not? As I mentioned above in my last post Maslow's Hierarchy has been used in Architectural theory for decades. You do know that Maslow updated his theory. As have other more recent phycologists further updated it. Maslow added additional segments to his original 5 eventually becoming 8 and some have further updated it to 13.

Ah, yes you can. Take DNA hard drives. Their entire construction and theory is based from taking the theory of how DNA stores data in the body (biological science) and replicating that in a nanotechnological way to create a mechanical storage device that can store as much data as a human dna strand can (mechanical science). It was also by creating and using hard drives (mechanical science) that it was seen similar to DNA storage (biological science) that enabled them to use the theory to create the DNA hard drive (mechanical science). But putting that aside, we are not talking about using Maslow's theory in conjunction with another field of science. We are talking about using his theory of human condition to create a system/tutorial or, dare I say it, game for the same human condition. To put it another way, the person plays a game because they want the middle of the pyramid, a sense of belonging, but to achieve that they first need to know how to survive in the game (navigation, abilities, etc) and feel safe so that they can achieve that. I just cant understand how people are not getting this. I was even taught how Maslow's theory relates to an architectural structure - a building, and that's Architectural theory not even game theory. For example at quick search here is an article of Maslow's updated Theory relating to architecture and interior design. You can even search for how it is used in architecture in the original hierarchy. Are people going to suggest now that I can't apply Maslow's theory to a house or building design because a building doesn't need to 'eat' or the theory is out dated so doesn't apply? Despite the very theory being used in building design for decades? Yet, my examples do not do that, nor am I saying to do that. I have not suggested that anywhere in my posts. Nor did the OP or those arguing in favour of the OP. As a different example, this pyramid uses the same Maslow's hierarchy, yet just words them differently yet still meaning the same. I.e. physiological needs is just another word for survival etc. They then provide a description on what each mean as far as a game goes. I personally would have used safety instead of progress as it still works in relation to a game or system or in this case second life as a user still needs to feel safe, identity etc as previously mentioned. By rewording the segments, it doesn't change (should be kept as safety) the fact that it is still Maslow's Hierarchy. It also keeps the theory that you need the lower sections to keep the higher ones. If a person can not navigate/survive the world, they can not improve gear (or feel the need for safety) as without the former the game/system/program and user couldn't advance, and so on.

But what does that point have to do with the topic? The topic isn't if Maslow's theory is relevant, unsounded or outdated. It is how that theory impacts game design and could impact and help second life. As yet, no person in this thread has countered the OP. Posting a link to an article about how a Harvard business school says it is unsound or there are better alternatives because it doesn't work in a workplace, is not an argument when we are talking about the theory in relation to a game, or as a comparison between game developers using it in games and how that can be utilised in SL for retention. Just like saying we dont eat in SL also isn't a counter as once again evidence has been provided showing that Maslow's theory and its adaption can apply to tutorials, e-learning, game design, etc. The only way to counter it is to prove that game developers do not use it in games or the theory of it isn't adapted in some form to a game in an effort to help user retention, engagement, investment, etc. The problem with 'game theory' is that it can be applied to any form of field. Marketing, business, phycology, biology, Philosophy, etc. Don't believe me look here showing that it can apply to all fields of sciences, business etc. Game theory - Wikipedia What people in this thread are basically saying is gamification, game theory or using those ideas in an effort to retain players (be it tutorial etc) cant apply to Maslow's Hierarchy as Maslow's Hierarchy is about 'RL stuff' and the RL human condition. If, game theory per the wiki entry shows that it can be used in all form of sciences, then why cant the reverse, using those sciences to improve a users engagement, investment, fun, retention, help, etc be true?

Seeing as you edited your post after I responded... I know it is, never suggested it wasn't. I even, in my post, conveniently stated it was data for marking games. My point was in that example was that the hierarchy can be used elsewhere not a literal translation like you are interpreting it as. Still missing mine and others points.

That's nice, but to use your own argument... "Also this paper is specifically about "workplaces". Second Life is not "a workplace". If I cant adapt (as you have pointed out - SL isn't a game) evidence for an argument in favour that Maslow's Hierarchy does apply to Second Life using its use in the gaming industry to design games, then you cant then use an argument to try and counter my argument and evidence based on evidence arguing Maslow's Hierarchy isn't applicable because your evidence shows it to be not relevant and debated from a workplace perspective. Cant have it both ways.

Well, apologies for posting something that focused on e-learning to a post where I was talking about tutorials. Where, you know, people are learning. Believe it or not, tutorials in games and e-learning do fall under the same umbrella. Also, you did not look at the actual paper at all did you? Obvious when you have quoted words such as 'suggested' and 'assume' to which belong to a summary a random person (the article writer) made of the paper and words not mentioned at all in the actual paper. You, like others, are also failing to realise that Maslow's Hierarchy can be adapted to systems that are relevant or can even be used as a basis for creating even a new hierarchy based on the same understanding of human psyche in relation to a said subject. Context is key and adapting it to that context is also relevant in the discussion. Just because the pyramid says food under physiological or housing under Safety doesn't mean it needs to be taken in a literal sense, which seems to be the only way other posters have taken it. I have mentioned this before in a post but apparently that, like a lot of posts from people saying Maslow's Hierarchy applies/is useful, also fell on deaf ears. For example, safety in an online environment can be such things as, is your RL identity safe in SL? Is your data safe in SL (aka copyright of content created)?, Can I be hurt? (i.e. think meta and their issue with the person complaining about someone touching 'their virtual self'). All of these fall under that same bracket of safety, however, are adapted to a context surrounding what second life (and other virtual worlds) is. Seeing as this thread has turned into a 'sex needs to stay hidden' thread, that 'safety' section on the hierarchy can even be applied to that, i.e. are under 16 year olds safe from adult content? Do they have access to it?, etc. Those basics are the fundamental design choices in Second Life AND games, just as Maslow's hierarchy suggests. They are a necessary foundation for ALL of those other segments to be supported on. Without that statement in the ToS that copyright remains yours for user created content (licenses to use to LL) - aka SAFETY, second life content would be a lot less than what we have now affecting the self actualisation segment . Without that 'are teens safe from adult content', those educational institutions would not come. As another example, here is a pyramid that was discussed as part of a computer game design conference that was modified using Maslow's Heirachy as a basis to form something to the context of gaming. Here is a discussion on how it relates to using the pyramid to collect data on users and user types for game marketing or just game production It’s All a Game: Video Games, Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, & Big Data | Acxiom You may not understand it, or even not believe it, but games have been and still are created with data obtained through an understanding of Maslow's Hierarchy and that understanding utilised in a way to improve the user experience and engagement in said game. But lets forget all about that as, like you said, Second Life isn't a game.🙄 The one common response here to explain away any notion of commonality Second Life has to 'that' word or any improvement from 'that' which could be adapted to SL to help retention or a topic 'that' is a discussion about in relation to SL. If from that and previous posts you cant understand where those of us saying that hierarchy does apply, both as a fundamental foundational aspect of the core functionality of Second Life itself, right up to the learning aspect a new user goes through in an effort to not only teach but retain them, then I dont know how else to show it and to be honest there isn't much point to try. Now I'm off to see a client about designing a house where the foundation allows to build a house safely, to give it's occupants a place of belonging where they can have respect from others and a sense of achievement to enable them to achieve self actualisation. Oh wait what am I talking about, Maslow's Hierarchy doesn't apply to a house or objects etc, its a flawed notion of a persons psyche. 🙄

In Australia it isn't viewed as nasty at all. Almost to the point that it is replacing Mate which is saying something because everyone is mate in aus.

I'm all for all demographics to be represented. Even my posts on user types and meeting the needs of all of those I hope conveys that. That said, like Coffee said, sex is shunned in SL and by LL whereas it should be advertised and shown off it is a major draw card to Second Life despite what people in this thread seem to think. If you dont think adult content is what keeps the lights on in SL and has for years, then ask all the furniture content creators whether their general or mature rated furniture outsells or even comes close to their adult furniture content sales. Go to marketplace and click search without putting any search terms in with GMA filters and then filter by best selling. Top items sold on MP and for many, many pages it is filled with adult content and bdsm, far outselling general or mature rated content. It is the largest demographic in SL yet it never gets a mention in any form by LL?

As I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I see what you are saying, however, I and many others see it differently. Maslow's Hierarchy has been looked into by game developers and designers for many, many years and used as a way to not only understand why people play games but also to 'retain' a player in said game. It worked so well that the modern survival game is almost a replica of the Hierarchy. Whilst yes, Second Life is a different form of game, the same Hierarchy is there that can be used in exactly the same way. Understand why a person plays and how to use that to retain a person. Just search Maslow's Hierarchy in game design and you will get plenty of writeups of people discussing it for game design all the way back to the late 2000's. What Coffee posted is not new. Its old and has been working for developers for a very long time. Even down to the reason why that Mobile game forces you to pay-up after a certain time or make you wait.