Farthington Whetmore Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 How do I file a complaint with the Lindens about a retailer - xxxx that sells Gorean & Medieval products who refuses to either refund my money or redeliver an Large Halloween Spider that never came when purchased? I do not see an option for this on the support page or in game not to mention the In Game Abuse interface requires a screen shot and I can no longer get to that location because I have been banned as part of this xxxx customer service dispute resolution procedures... Your assistance in this matter would be appreciated. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelique LaFollette Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Two points, #1, the Lindens Rarely if ever get involved in disputes of this kind, But try an AR. #2, you will want to Edit the name of the company you are having the dispute with from this thread, Naming Names in this way is against the Forum's rules. Good luck. Angel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lixena Lamourfou Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Unfortunately, I must agree with Angelique. Second Life rarely gets involved with merchant disputes, and its not appropriate to name names on the forums. In empathy, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammantha Koppel Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I'm pretty sure you can still file an AR without the screenshot. I know you used to be able to. Sounds like great customer service at that store. You don't get what you pay for, they ban you. LL won't get involved but at least if you AR them, there will be a record of it. Unfortunately, if you leave the store name in your post, you are the one who can have problems with LL. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 In addition to what all the others have said you need to remember that the seller has no way of knowing if goods were delivered to you or not, so they only have your word for it. There is usually a lot of discussions about permissions and returns-policies in the commerce forums related to this. Transfer/no-copy: You might have received the thing then just passed it to a friend and lied to get another one. Sellers usually won't resend. If you have an operating problem (eg; scripts/animations) you can pass it back to the seller for fixing. Sellers usually will fix, replace and sometimes refund Copy/no-transfer: You can't give it to anyone else and can already make as many copies as you want so the seller doesn't lose if they send you multiple copies. Sellers usually will resend. You might lie about deleting your copies though so sellers usually won't refund. This is exactly the sort of inter-resident dispute with which LL will not get involved. If it's a systematic fraud or similar though then there will be action, so an AR might lead to greater things. Always remember that you still have your RL rights and can start your own legal action if it's important enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstralBody Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 That is one reason I like ordering through the marketplace. They can always resend your item, if the retailer is never on, or doesn't wanna refund. It may take them 3-4 days, but they will get it to you :smileytongue:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farthington Whetmore Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 Thanks for your advise. It never fails to amaze me how SL mirrors RL: There are more rights for "Wrong Doers" then there are for victims. I attempted to explain to the only person I could reach, that I was ready to spend a lot more money at their location (on the spot) as I prepared for my Halloween Haunt and resolving this issue would of enable that process to continue. Their shortsightedness was and is incredulous! Oh well, this store's in game reputation is suffering more then me losing out on some Lindens. My group which has 1300+ members is aware of this situation and boycott signs are up at my locations and hopefully no more people will be victemised by their poor customer service and business practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lixena Lamourfou Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 PeterCanessa , If we are talking about a transaction that has happened at the SL Marketplace seller are aware if an item has been delivered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farthington Whetmore Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 No the item was purchased in game at their location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 No - sellers DO NOT know whether the item has been DELIVERED. All they can know is that marketplace says it's been SENT. Given the number of delivery-failures reported by customers after marketplace says complete there is a very big area for dispute. (Check the Answers section for the number of people who complain "marketplace says it was sent but I never got it") A simple transaction in-world leaves as much of an audit-trail as marketplace. A scripted-vendor provides even more information and options. The advantage of the marketplace for sellers is that it's free advertising as well as paid-for sales. In-world transactions are more reliable, quicker and (slightly) easier to verify. @Astral - THAT is why I DON'T buy on marketplace if I can help it. A seller who re-sends or, even worse, refunds when things have just got 'lost in transit' loses by the amount of commission LL charges on marketplace transactions. So, sellers are paying for LL's bad system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farthington Whetmore Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 One could state that Buyers are also paying for LL's bad retail system... and considering that SL is pretty much nothing but a large shopping mall, this is a very sad state of affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Oh certainly, everyone suffers. I'm just trying to explain the whole story so no-one gets unfairly annoyed at sellers who have no control over delivery. There may be a hundred other reasons to get annoyed with them, of course :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farthington Whetmore Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 Well I could argue that under such circumstances and in the competitive markets it is important for sellers to nurture customer loyalty by giving the customer the benefit of the doubt. I have been a member in SL since 2006- I am not some newbie resident trying to pull a fast one: I provided the account details of the transaction and explained what I was going to do with the item and that I had already invested heavily in my haunt (verifiable location) and that I would be purchasing more items from this store as soon as the delivery issue was resolved. There was enough facts to enable the seller to make an informed decision in this situation and that I was customer worth taking care of - heck it was only L450!! And in my opinion an amount not worth losing a customer and jeopardizing brand integrity over. And to make matters worst, I am told that Linden Labs will not get involved in this matter yet they will do whatever they can to prevent a resident from speaking out against stores who engage in nefarious business practices. I guess the Linden Labs would intervene if I owned several sims and paid large amounts each month and threatened to cancel if they did not resolve this but as a small land owner, I mean nothing to them. No wonder subscribership has diminished so dramatically over the last few years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishtara Rothschild Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Inworld transactions have also been known to fail occasionally, especially if it's a scripted vendor solution. Good merchants will err in favor of the customer and redeliver an item. And if the item is copyable, there is no reason not to send the customer a dozen copies if he asks for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Farthington Whetmore wrote: ...I have been a member in SL since 2006...heck it was only L450!! ...I am told that Linden Labs will not get involved... they will do whatever they can to prevent a resident from speaking out against stores who engage in nefarious business practices And this has always been the case - since at least 2006 when you accepted the terms of service. Sorry, but this is starting to sound like a lot of drama for less than US$2. The TOS, community standards, forum guidelines, etc. etc. make it clear that singling-out any individual for abuse etc. here is not allowed but it does NOT say evryone has to give exemplary customer service. Who you are accussing of "nefarious business practices" and why? As has been mentioned, you are free to AR and if LL see a pattern of reports that makes them suspicious of fraud they are likely to act. They aren't likely to do anything just about someone deciding they'd rather lose your custom than your US$2. ETA: For below - brain-slip, sorry. I only meant that to be about refunds/returns-policies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 (We are not charged commission for resending.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloise Baily Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 PeterCanessa Oh wrote: Farthington Whetmore wrote: ...I have been a member in SL since 2006...heck it was only L450!! ...I am told that Linden Labs will not get involved... they will do whatever they can to prevent a resident from speaking out against stores who engage in nefarious business practices Sorry, but this is starting to sound like a lot of drama for less than US$2. This made me a bit bitey (sorry), but $2 is actually a significant factor in their weekly budget for some people. I don't want to hear that stuff about oh well they can afford the internet blah blah blah either. Alcoholics can afford alcohol. Smokers can afford ciggies and lardarses can afford pies. We're only human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farthington Whetmore Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 LOL its not about the amount of money, it's about the principle and consumer protection and yes a lot of drama is evolving out of this that could of been avoided had the store provided me the item or the money (less than US$2) to repurchase the item... Bottom line is I bought an item, I didn't get it, and the store refuses to redeliver the item or refund my money - I am trying to avoid using terms like Fraudulent, Thievery, Rip Off Artists, etc. hence nefarious business practices! I posted this a couple of days ago and I explained in detail in this situation and had mentioned who the seller was, the person I had been dealing with, and the brand name / store but the post was removed because of perceived TOS violation. Its OK for the store behave as mentioned but as a consumer and a long term subscriber, it's not OK for me to complain about it or bring about public attention to matter in order to warn other consumers of this store's failed customer service procedures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 @ Eloise - good point, well made. I only made the point because the OP said "It's only" @ Farthingtom Farthington Whetmore wrote: Bottom line is I bought an item, I didn't get it, and the store refuses to redeliver the item or refund my mone Please PROVE that you did not get the item. Please PROVE that the store is responsible for the non-delivery. OR Please JUSTIFY why, in the absence of the above, the store's refusal to replace/refund is fraudulent, etc.Yes it's OK for "the store" to behave as mentioned because it's not contrary to TOS. The avatar who owns that store is also "a consumer and a ... subscriber". No it's not OK for you to bring about public attention because that is against the TOS. We're ALL residents here, subject to LL's rules and the laws of California, the USA and whatever local/national laws may govern internet transactions wherever we are. It's lousy customer-service maybe You can AR them and LL will do something about it if they see a pattern of behaviour that looks like fraud LL does not get involved in inter-resident disputes: even though it's their marketplace that causes ones like this You could try asking LL for the money back since (it could be argued) the seller has acted in good faith You can always hire a lawyer and start your own RL legal action It's been that way since at least 2006 --- Now, are you complaining about the avatar that owns the store or LL's TOS because I'm getting lost here? My point is just don't blame the vendor for a system over which they have no control. If LL lost your stuff LL should make good (replace/refund) [i think I'd better say at this point that not only am I nothing to do with the vendor in question (yes, I read the OP before the name was edited out) but I also stopped selling things when the marketplace was introduced precisely because it is so unreliable and causes so many problems for innocent (until proved guilty anyway!) content creators] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloise Baily Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 PeterCanessa Oh wrote: @ Eloise - good point, well made. I only made the point because the OP said "It's only" Good point, well made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaiya Arnold Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I get what you mean. I think some sellers might be large enough they get multiple scam attempts in a week so I suppose I can understand why some might get a bit more "hard line" than a smaller seller like myself. Personally, I've made a whole new item for someone, uploaded the texture and sent it free of charge because the customer misunderstood an advert (and I also changed the advert too of course). That item is now one of my best sellers so everyone won in the end. You sound plausible enough to me, so maybe the seller in question is a little jaded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farthington Whetmore Posted September 28, 2011 Author Share Posted September 28, 2011 LOL I hardly think I or any other sane person would initiate RL legal action for the amount or product in question... I trust that was an attempt of humor on your part. - I invite any Linden to audit my inventory - if I had the item I would have installed it at my Halloween Haunted House set up because that is why I purchased it in the first place. - I didn't accuse the store of not delivering the item, I am saying that once the store took my money, I didn't get the item. I am however, accusing the store and the persons I have delt with, with failing to resolve this simple issue and by not doing so has caused me to formulate an opinion regarding their business practices. I am not using the term fraudulent, I am saying questionable and nefarious business practices. How could I not form such an opinion when I purchased the item in good faith, went through the proper channels to explain what happened, was basically told "too bad" , and even after days of attempting to use logic as to why it would be advantageous to resolve this customer service issue on so many levels, I was flatly told "Don't Write To Me"... And with one final attempt I explained to them that if this situation wasn't resolved that I would warn my 1300 + group membership of this matter.. You think one wouldn't risk damaging their brand's reputation for such a trivial amount!?? Yet their response was banning me - LOL I will refrain from saying what I truely think of these individuals. Now here is an example of great customer service: I purchase many items from SHX a retailer of club items a year ago. Last week I removed one of their items from one of my locations and a few days later I went to look for and it was missing from my inventory. I went through every thing and could not find it. I sent off a note card explaining what happened and the item was sent to me a couple of days later. Another example: During by buying spree for my Haunted House, I purchased a well and when delivered I had accidently click refuse or discard what ever it is, while I was closing off other pop-up boxes. I sent off a notecard explaining what happened and the next day the item was sent to me. This is the type of customer service that instills brand loyalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Farthington Whetmore wrote: LOL I hardly think I or any other sane person would initiate RL legal action for the amount or product in question If the AMOUNT is not an issue - fraud is fraud - then a L$450 'theft' should be treated the same as a £4.5m one. It never is of course. I was pointing out that you still have your RL options. I would also point out that if it would be insane to pursue this in RL then it is just drama to warn 1300+ group members of this evil person's criminal activity, publicly defame them by posting to the forums with the details, abuse-report them with the service provider and demand the company take action to close their business This would be an accurate summary of your actions? You say you don't accuse the store (why call it "the store" all the time? You are talking about a person!) of not delivering the item. So all you are accusing them of is customer service that didn't meet your satisfaction? In that case an abuse-report is not really appropriate, is it? Nor publicly posting to call them evil and criminal (nefarious = evil, by the way)? Farthington Whetmore wrote: This is the type of customer service that instills brand loyalty. And, unfortunately, theft and fraud by customers. I think Anaiya has it, sellers get jaded. That's not an excuse of course, but poor service is only that, not criminal, not deliberate, not 'breaking the rules'. And it's been like that since at least 2006. Anyway, 'nuf said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishtara Rothschild Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 The way I see it, we merchants use a business platform / software solution that is widely known to be quite unreliable and bug-ridden. If we still do business in SL despite its many flaws, we have to accommodate our customers when they experience problems and err in their favor. After all, they can't prove to us that they didn't receive an item. All they can prove is that they paid us money. It's annoying enough to have to wait several hours, or sometimes days, until a merchant is inworld and able to deliver an item manually. Questioning the customer's honesty only adds insult to injury. It's up to us merchants to keep doing what the rabid fanboys call whining and negativity until LL eventually fix all transaction and delivery related bugs (one can dream). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I agree with you Ishy (out of habit in nothing else) but bad customer service is not a crime, nor against TOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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