terraforming land idea

[Roary McGillivary]

Ok so I know this is a WAY out their idea, BUT I get some crazy idea's some times. Just a little off the topic I am about to mention, I saw an article about how that Maybe Avatar complexity might be some thing that Philip Rosedale might be able to fix. "OH" ? since he is "fixing" things how about make it so that in terraforming land that you could lower the land in an area BUT THEN you start to TUNNEL under. Yeah I already know about tunnel kits and stuff, but as it is you have to set the land up so high so that you can place the tunnels under the land to adventure through. What if we could just terraform tunnels in any direction that we wanted? You'd certainly have to use a modified land tool that would allow for directional tunneling. it is certainly an idea that would be a feature in SL that hasn't existed or does exist in any other platforms other than possibly some thing like "mine craft". I cant help but think of how cool it would be to maybe terraform a passage way under a body of water and up onto the other side, create a cavern under a hill or mountainous area. So now to prepare for the onslaught of people telling me how insanely difficult this would be to program, and go back to buffing my finger nails. 

[Mollymews]

technically is not difficult to do this with some variation of a voxel-based terrain engine. It just means that Linden would have to change from heightmap terrain

if Linden were to do this then I think it would most likely come only as an option for private estate regions, probably for some additional tier payment 

 

[Chris Corvinus]

On 2/3/2022 at 1:59 PM, Mollymews said:

if Linden were to do this then I think it would most likely come only as an option for private estate regions, probably for some additional tier payment 

ABSOLUTELY FREAKING NOT.

[Jules Catlyn]

11 hours ago, Chris Nova said:

ABSOLUTELY FREAKING NOT.

CHILL!

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

On 2/3/2022 at 6:59 PM, Mollymews said:

technically is not difficult to do this with some variation of a voxel-based terrain engine. It just means that Linden would have to change from heightmap terrain

if Linden were to do this then I think it would most likely come only as an option for private estate regions, probably for some additional tier payment 

 

It wouldn't be all that hard to voxelize the existing terraforming on mainland sims if LL wanted to swap to voxel based terrain, and once the feature had been developed and implemented there would be no additional costs involved so while LL could charge additional tier for it doing so would be exceptionally greedy and I suspect that the overall response would be a resounding

11 hours ago, Chris Nova said:

ABSOLUTELY FREAKING NOT.

 

There are definitely a few games that already use voxel based terrain to great effect and it's a feature I would love to see in SL, but then there are quite a few other things I'd also like to see added and I don't expect to see any of them anytime soon either.

[Mollymews]

5 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

It wouldn't be all that hard to voxelize the existing terraforming on mainland sims if LL wanted to swap to voxel based terrain, and once the feature had been developed and implemented there would be no additional costs involved

suppose Linden did want to make SL But Better (as opposed to previous efforts of Not SL At All)

how might this be done.  Before we (the royal we world builder owner company) can get in to the design details of the world itself, the main question to this I think is: Who is going to pay to build SL But Better ?

i think the answer to this is the current fee/subscription paying SL residents. And if we (the royal we company) are successful in building this SL But Better world then we will satisfy our current fee/subscription paying base, and have a good potential to grow our conversion rate of new sign-ins to fee paying subscribers because of the Better part

so what would make SL But Better still SL.  Two parts to this I think:

1) the inworld social component. In practice: avatar identity, existing friends, contacts, relationships seamlessly reachable from both SL (olde) and SL But Better platforms simultaneously. We can IM our friends/contacts on Olde SL from SL But Better and vice versa

2) The monetary component. In practice: L$.  One ingame currency account balance for both platforms

i thought Linden were going to do these two things with the Sansar project, but they never. Sansar ended up as Not SL At All, at least in the eyes of the people providing the bulk of the funding base for the build out. SL people never went to Sansar because Not SL

given these two things which are I think iimperatives, then we can look at how we (the royal we) could make the SL But Better world.  And is here that we can get bold. One identity platform and three grids. SL Grid 1: SL as it is. SL But Better Grid 2: SL for wireless phone/tablet devices. SL But Better Grid 3: Rich content for high-end performance devices

three grids would be the bold move I would make if I was the boss of the royal we company (which I am not but if I was). Because I want to be able to partition content by type of client device to provide a performant service on the device, while retaining identity across the platform. Identity and performance are the keys to any world I think

Inventory (object performance) would not be as great an issue with 3 grids - everything we already have will continue to work on Grid 1

when we teleport to Grids 2 or 3 then begin with our Grid Starter inventory. Then we have to build/buy content made specifically for that Grid

to facilitate resident building I would make Content Creation Editors specifically for Grids 2 and 3. In terms of avatar and rezzed content, resident creatives will make their own choices about which grids they will build for. Like avatars for example: A version for each grid: Medium, Light and Rich.Or they just pick one

if we think about the 3 grids as different planets, able to be teleported between (depending on client device), then we have a way to realise a land ownership model consistent with the SL way.   If we think about Grid 1 SL as Earth, then Grid 2 is Mars,  Grid 3 is Venus, then it makes sense that if we wanted our own home on each planet then that's what we would have to get/buy

with Grids 2 and 3 then because they are new content worlds then they can be built from the ground up as whole new content delivery and rendering systems for the modern hardware on which they are intended to run, and not caring at all about olde SL backward compatibility and not breaking existing stuff - this is what Grid/Planent 1 SL is for, not breaking existing content

over time I think people will migrate to the newer grids/planets, and Grid 1Olde SL will slowly reduce as the new planets grow, until one day Olde SL ends up as an antiquities museum

this grid/planet model can be endlessly extended, Grid 4: Rich Water world, Grid 5: Rich Spaceship world and so on

this model helps to address the perennial problem. How to have one identity platform that takes advantage of hardware advances, while not breaking existing content.  For this to happen people have to accept that content is not transferable beyond the grid/planet that it is made for. And I think people generally get that this is so about content already

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Mollymews
not

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

6 hours ago, Mollymews said:

suppose Linden did want to make SL But Better (as opposed to previous efforts of Not SL At All)

how might this be done.  Before we (the royal we world builder owner company) can get in to the design details of the world itself, the main question to this I think is: Who is going to pay to build SL But Better ?

i think the answer to this is the current fee/subscription paying SL residents. And if we (the royal we company) are successful in building this SL But Better world then we will satisfy our current fee/subscription paying base, and have a good potential to grow our conversion rate of new sign-ins to fee paying subscribers because of the Better part

so what would make SL But Better still SL.  Two parts to this I think:

1) the inworld social component. In practice: avatar identity, existing friends, contacts, relationships seamlessly reachable from both SL (olde) and SL But Better platforms simultaneously. We can IM our friends/contacts on Olde SL from SL But Better and vice versa

2) The monetary component. In practice: L$.  One ingame currency account balance for both platforms

i thought Linden were going to do these two things with the Sansar project, but they never. Sansar ended up as Not SL At All, at least in the eyes of the people providing the bulk of the funding base for the build out. SL people never went to Sansar because Not SL

given these two things which are I think iimperatives, then we can look at how we (the royal we) could make the SL But Better world.  And is here that we can get bold. One identity platform and three grids. SL Grid 1: SL as it is. SL But Better Grid 2: SL for wireless phone/tablet devices. SL But Better Grid 3: Rich content for high-end performance devices

three grids would be the bold move I would make if I was the boss of the royal we company (which I am not but if I was). Because I want to be able to partition content by type of client device to provide a performant service on the device, while retaining identity across the platform. Identity and performance are the keys to any world I think

Inventory (object performance) would not be as great an issue with 3 grids - everything we already have will continue to work on Grid 1

when we teleport to Grids 2 or 3 then begin with our Grid Starter inventory. Then we have to build/buy content made specifically for that Grid

to facilitate resident building I would make Content Creation Editors specifically for Grids 2 and 3. In terms of avatar and rezzed content, resident creatives will make their own choices about which grids they will build for. Like avatars for example: A version for each grid: Medium, Light and Rich.Or they just pick one

if we think about the 3 grids as different planets, able to be teleported between (depending on client device), then we have a way to realise a land ownership model consistent with the SL way.   If we think about Grid 1 SL as Earth, then Grid 2 is Mars,  Grid 3 is Venus, then it makes sense that if we wanted our own home on each planet then that's what we would have to get/buy

with Grids 2 and 3 then because they are new content worlds then they can be built from the ground up as whole new content delivery and rendering systems for the modern hardware on which they are intended to run, and not caring at all about olde SL backward compatibility and not breaking existing stuff - this is what Grid/Planent 1 SL is for, not breaking existing content

over time I think people will migrate to the newer grids/planets, and Grid 1Olde SL will slowly reduce as the new planets grow, until one day Olde SL ends up as an antiquities museum

this grid/planet model can be endlessly extended, Grid 4: Rich Water world, Grid 5: Rich Spaceship world and so on

this model helps to address the perennial problem. How to have one identity platform that takes advantage of hardware advances, while not breaking existing content.  For this to happen people have to accept that content is not transferable beyond the grid/planet that it is made for. And I think people generally get that this is so about content already

 

I think we agree that SLs existing content is a key factor in its longevity and something that needs to be maintained, but I'm not sure I would take the same approach as you to making "SL But Better".

The problem that Linden Lab has is that what most consider SLs greatest asset, its huge library of content, is also its biggest hurdle.  The majority of content in SL is poorly optimized so adding shiny new bells and whistles to make SL look like modern game engines is probably going to create performance issues even on newer hardware and I suspect that ensuring backward compatibility with old content while trying to improve existing features or adding new ones must be an absolute nightmare.

Personally I consider SLs greatest asset to be us, its residents, the creators of all those assets which make up the huge library of content which keeps people coming back to explore, shop, roleplay, take photos, build homes, decorate and all the other activities that go on in SL which, in turn, become part of the tapestry of creativity that defines it as a living virtual world.  While LL may have created and maintained the platform, the creation of the virtual world hosted on their servers is the work of its residents, and any new virtual world, be it a new platform or a new iteration of SL, will require the same amount of sustained creativity and effort in order to succeed.

So LL either has to find a way to utilize SLs existing assets and somehow make them compatible with future iterations of the platform, or they have to convince its residents to help them build new content which is compatible and makes use of all the shiny new features they implement.  So far their efforts to create a new platform have not been well met, and I doubt the outcome of project Sansar is going to inspire much confidence in future efforts in that direction.

As for utilizing existing content I'd really like to see support for Pixars USD (Universal Scene Description) format in SL.  If all existing content were made compatible with USD then it would increase the chances of SL being included in any new metaverse that may emerge, but there are obviously some significant licensing and IP issues surrounding transferring content from SL to other virtual worlds, not to mention the obvious concerns about content piracy.

Even if the USD format is only implemented for importing 3D content it would allow LL to provide something similar to the local textures feature but for mesh, which may not seem like a big deal until you realize that it would facilitate collaborative in-world building between those that create mesh and those that don't.  For example, you could have someone create a basic build out of prims and then someone else can rez a "blank scene" and start building over the top of those prims in mesh, either using the prims as a plan/guide to recreate the build in mesh or just creating additional decorations and embellishments that can then be uploaded and linked to the existing prims once everyone involved is happy with the results.

I could spend days pondering the question of how I would improve SL or go about creating SL 2.0, and hours trying condense my thoughts into a coherent post, but chances are it would still be so long the tldr would need a tldr. 😅

But, in a nutshell, I think maybe I'd start by trying to create SL exactly as it exists now, with full support for all the legacy content but in such a way that it was capable of being upgraded by adding new modules, then expand the current system of land ownership to include "custom grids" that allow customers to add whichever modules they need based on the functionality they require.

They could then develop sets of advanced new features and offer them as additional modules that cater to activities such as gaming, commerce, roleplay, etc. with an API for each module in order to provide scripted control of its features (with some functions available to lsl scripts and others being "server side" and only available to scripts enabled by the grid owner to facilitate further customization of the environment and player experience for the purpose of creating games, etc).

A modular approach may also allow the addition of newer more advanced features while simultaneously helping to reduce the overall load on hardware since unnecessary features could be disabled.

I think whatever steps Linden Lab take next with SL there are going to be quite a few eyes watching them thanks to the current metaverse hype train, I just hope they treat the recent surge of interest in virtual worlds as something more than just an opportunity for marketing and publicity.

[Mollymews]

16 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I could spend days pondering the question of how I would improve SL or go about creating SL 2.0, and hours trying condense my thoughts into a coherent post, but chances are it would still be so long the tldr would need a tldr. 😅

But, in a nutshell, I think maybe I'd start by trying to create SL exactly as it exists now, with full support for all the legacy content but in such a way that it was capable of being upgraded by adding new modules, then expand the current system of land ownership to include "custom grids" that allow customers to add whichever modules they need based on the functionality they require.

They could then develop sets of advanced new features and offer them as additional modules that cater to activities such as gaming, commerce, roleplay, etc. with an API for each module in order to provide scripted control of its features (with some functions available to lsl scripts and others being "server side" and only available to scripts enabled by the grid owner to facilitate further customization of the environment and player experience for the purpose of creating games, etc).

A modular approach may also allow the addition of newer more advanced features while simultaneously helping to reduce the overall load on hardware since unnecessary features could be disabled.

yes we can definitely tldr this topic to pieces

generally tho I think that the path you are describing fits the path that Linden, from my own observations, are already on.  Remembering also that as residents we tend to gravitate toward new features ourselves, in the self-selecting way. Mesh being the biggest example of this.  Residents prefer mesh to prims, which is borne out by their buying preferences. Preferences which the sellers reflect in their store offerings

is only a relatively few creatives still working totally with prims - typically for their own use. Like me as an example, I like prims but I like mesh doors, windows, stairs, roof eaves, vehicles, garden stuff, etc more, so tend to add some mesh objects into what I put together. And I haven't worn any totally prim-based avatar accessory since ages. So I am as much a feature self-selecting person as everybody else

 

your thoughts on modularisation for private estates (mini-grids) is a more nuanced way to go than is my big broad brush approach, but I think the issues (at least the technical implementation) are the same

like suppose we (the royal we) wanted to offer estate mini-grids. We could try to integrate these new feature modules into the existing estate model, or we can design a whole new model for them

for example: tunneling-enabled terrain, and physics water.  Make your terrain, drop a water component(s) on the terrain and the water flows automagically into the dips of the terrain. Then drop a physics weather system component (with settable wind, rain, sun, snow, etc, parameters) on to the region and the water responds to the weather, as do the vegetation and animal-like objects we have dropped on the terrain (they get wet in the rain, and can get washed away in a flood, die in a drought, ice freeze and melt, etc etc). Physics water and weather system will also make vehicles a whole other experience

then we can say that only objects that are made for this environment can be rezzed (some existing previous made mesh objects, that are conformant to the new model) will rez, others won't.  There are no prims as we know them - they just won't rezz) This non-rez restriction also applies to avatar wearables. Some existing meshes will rezz, others won't being non-conformant. Being a physics environment then this leads to avatar cloth accessories that respond to wet, wind, dry weather conditions, then onto automagic avatar and object appearance behaviour like heat sources: fireplaces, heater and fridge appliances, etc

this is a rich environment and I think that no matter how we think about this, planets, grids, mini-grids, rich estates, etc then it all kind of boils down to the same thing, at least in the implementation of it. For sure tho I think that functions for estate management, friends/contacts, L$, inventory, groups, etc can largely remain the same. Same with avatar movement controls, and object mounting tools - move, rotate, etc