Confused on who i pay rent to!

[Sanya Bilavio]

Hello,

 

I have been renting a full 15k prim sim for a little over a year now and im confused as to who i should pay rent to at this point. 

For the first 6 - 8 months i was paying rent to a real estate business located in sl which owns a bunch of land. However i then got a message from someone claiming to be the estate owner saying the rent had not been paid for over 6 months. I checked in with one of the managers and she let me know he was in deed the land estate owner, and she wasn't aware her boss wasnt paying the sim rent with the L$ i was giving him. 

That man later changed my name as the estate owner and gave me a discount as to how much i was to pay him directly for the sim since the company was not paying him the L$ i was giving them for the land rent. 

I have been renting from him directly for about 4 months now. He doesnt require i pay a box a specific time every month, we barely speak, and he never IMs me about rent being due. Last month i completely forgot to pay land rent because we never speak and i had to write his name down on a notecard to remember who he was. I recently lost that notecard and am going on the 2nd month of not paying sim rent. I tried to go to the land and track his name down on the region/estate tab but his name is no where to be found on the list of estate owners, managers, anything. It's just my name and i have complete control over everything related to the sim. 

Since he hasn't imed me about last months or this months rent im kind of curious if i should even be paying him rent at all since my name is now in the estate owner slot and his is nowhere to be found? Very confused as to what to do at this point and dont want to loose the land. 

Thanks! 

 

[SorrowDragon]

to see who the estate owner is.. just click on World>Region Details, if for some reason it doesnt show there, or shows your name.. you can verify this also in the about land window, under the covenant tab.

 

Also unless you went through Linden Lab's process of a sim transfer through the support ticket process.  You are not the estate owner.. you're probabyl confusing that with Estate Manager.. an estate owner can assign up to 10 people as Estate Managers, people who are allowed to manage a sim, change settings, etc.. just don't actually own it, cant sell it, cant change ownership info, etc.

If for some reason you did do this at some point.. and you are indeed the land owner.. then you are probably going to get billed by LL when billing date is due.

 

What is the region name in question? I can visit and check the owner for you ^.^

[Sanya Bilavio]

Hi thank you for responding!

The sim name is Eila and it says in both about land and region/estate that i am the Estate Owner. My name is the only one in Estate Managers as well. 

When i go to Secondlife.com and Land Manager it lists the Estate name "TickTack" and sim name EIla as well, along with a Billing date for August 19th, 2013. There is also a monthly billing amount listed, but i have never paid this to LL, only to the man who changed my name over to Estate Owner. He switched it about 4 months ago is it possible he could have been paying this balance for me the entire time if i am indeed the Estate Owner? 

[SorrowDragon]

i just stopped by and indeed you do own it.. i assume the previous sim owner must of transfered it to you and paid the transfer fee and didnt tell you or confused you?

so this means your monthly bill goes to Linden Labs, noone else can pay them for you.. so from this point on... pay no one.. Linden Labs will automattically deduct the monthly teir through your linked paypal/credit card.

and if this is not the case.. possibly an error O: on Linden Lab's side.. you may also contact Linden Lab's Live chat to verify if in fact this sim belongs to you fully!

 

If it works out as planned.. maybe you will score a free sim, and never have to pay rent to someone else again and instead to Linden Labs for the normal $295 monthly fee.

 

https://support.secondlife.com/start-chat/   <-- you can contact live support here.

 

But it appears to me ticktack is just the estate's name.. not the sim itself ^.^ an estate beign a group of sims

 

you wouldn't happen to be interested in sellign the sim woudl you ? if you notice the full region sale page, i've been looking for one and waiting for one to post

in anycase, it's best to contact linden labs and verify who owns it and how billing works.

[Sanya Bilavio]

tyvm!

I had a chat with support and they verified that i am indeed the Estate Owner HOWEVER the man i was renting through is the ALT Payor/Region Owner and thats who they bill, so i should continue to pay him as we much have some kind of agreement. 

I just find it strange he hasnt contacted me but i will have to contact him now to get this taken care of. 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

This is a very strange tale.  To transfer the sim to you he would have had tot pay a transfer fee of 150US. which makes no sense.  Why would he do that if he was just renting to you? Something fishy is going on here and I can't think of how it could be a good thing and it might have serious consequences.  If I were you I'd get to the bottom of it ASAP. 

First LL does not allow two separate people to co-own a sim.  I just checked the wiki and an estate is defined

Estate: - Estates consist of one or more map regions with a single owner who has overall control over the estate and can set rules over and above the general Second Life rules.

You are allowed to have an alt that is the payer but last I knew from my own experience it had to be your alt.  So they probably think your account and the payer account is the same person. 

There are two dangers here.  If they find out it is two RL people involved in this I am not sure how they will react.  They may view it as fraud or that you were trying to get around the rules for sim ownership and suspend you both.  Also, since you are the owner of the estate, if he fails to pay, YOUR account and this payer alt account and any alts you have will be suspended until all back money owed is paid.  If you are suspended, even for a few days, you may lose part of or all your inventory.  LL does not guarantee inventory restoration if you are suspended.  I've known people to be suspended that lost a lot of inventory as a result.

If I were you and you want to keep the sim, I would arrange to pay LL the tier directly and remove this guys name completely.  At least you are in control then and would be in no danger of losing your account or inventory.  If you can no longer afford the tier you can abandon it or sell it and not be under the gun for the tier anymore.  It is your right as the estate owner to change the billing for the sim to your own PIOF.

[jwenting]

sounds fishy indeed.

Transfer region ownership, at the cost of $150 one time. Then continue to collect rent to the amount of $295+profit and for a few months pay LL that $295 using a throwaway alt, then keep collecting the rent while stopping payments.

Worst happens, the throwaway alt account gets shut down (it's no doubt created using an anonymous email address that can't be traced to the actual address). If your, his customer's, account get shut down as well the scammer couldn't care less.

Indeed, arrange to pay LL directly and stop paying the alt "manager".

[Daniel Regenbogen]

There was a time when LL actually allowed 2 "types" of estate owner, meaning: someone could be the estate owner by name, but someone else was billed for it. This kind of "secondary estate owner" had all rights minus the right to sell the estate full transfer. The construct was very much in use during the high time of the Homestead Regions, it allowed people to be "estate owner" of a Homestead with almost all of the rights that come with that status, but without actually owning the required full region.

 

When the big "Oh lets raise the HS monthly prices by 66 percent!" disaster hit, LL at the same time decided to end this construct. Maybe it is "grandfathered" for those who used it while it was possible, and this is one of those regions.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

Daniel Regenbogen wrote:

There was a time when LL actually allowed 2 "types" of estate owner, meaning: someone could be the estate owner by name, but someone else was billed for it. This kind of "secondary estate owner" had all rights minus the right to sell the estate full transfer. The construct was very much in use during the high time of the Homestead Regions, it allowed people to be "estate owner" of a Homestead with almost all of the rights that come with that status, but without actually owning the required full region.

 

When the big "Oh lets raise the HS monthly prices by 66 percent!" disaster hit, LL at the same time decided to end this construct. Maybe it is "grandfathered" for those who used it while it was possible, and this is one of those regions.

---

 

In the seven years I have been on SL I've never heard of this and it makes no sense unless it was for a FULL sim rental, not a homestead.  You have to own a full sim to be the owner of a homestead sim so the Landlord would have to be the estate owner.  The tenant listed as the payer, means they are the one that LL bills for the tier at the rate of the 95.00US it cost at that time, leaving the landlord unable to profit from the rental.  If the roles were switched, the tenant would have to own the full sim too, and if they did own one why on earth would they be renting a homestead and paying a higher tier when they could get one themselves?

Even if it was used for full sims it would put the Landlord at huge risk for losing the sim because the tenant could sell it as the estate owner or remove them as payer and thus remove any rights the Landlord had in the sim.  I have a friend that bought a sim and put their partner as the estate owner and an alt they shared as the payer because LL would not allow any form of co ownership.  The alt was officially owned by the estate owner partner.  They broke up and the paying partner was unable to take the sim back from the former partner.  LL advised that the avatar listed as the sim owner had to file a transfer ticket to change it so the person paying owned it. Since that person refused to do that all the paying partner could do was remove the PIOF and relinquish any and all rights to the sim.

I think you are confusing it with the Landlord being the Estate Owner and the tenant being the Estate Agent, which would give them full control of the sim except for being able to sell it, bake the terrain, or download a raw file of the terrain, which only the actual Estate Owner can do. 

[Daniel Regenbogen]

Amethyst, you did not read correctly. Only the one who *paid* for the region was able to actually sell it - not the one who was listed as estate owner. From the Second Life Wiki:

*.*.*
Can I pay for a private region for someone else?
Yes you can, as long as the region is a Regular full prim region. The option is not available for Homestead or Openspace regions. A private region can have a payor who is a different person than the owner. When this is done, we consider the payor to be the rightful owner of the private region, and that person has the right to do as they wish with it. The owner gains the controls they need to run the private region, but although listed as owner, they do not have the right to sell or transfer it.
In any conflict of views between owner and payor, it is the payor that has ultimate control -- even down to removing the owner entirely if they wish.
*.*.*

So it actually is still possible, just not anymore for Homesteads or Open Spaces.

[Ishtar Roussel]

Funny I should come across this thread today because I have just been in live concierge chat asking about this very topic! This has just come up for me inworld for the first time in 6 years of being an SL resident. I am about to rent my sim out to someone and they asked if it would be possible to become owner and me become payor, I was quite confused at first so I went to concierge and had a long live chat with them about all the in and outs of the situation just an hour ago. 

It is not fishy or risky to do this, what happens is the sim owner files a ticket with LL for them to change the ownership to be the name of the renter (this in NOT the same as full transfer and has NO cost and is completely possible to reverse at any time).

After the change goes through the renter will now appear as owner and can do all the things an owner can do, including uploading raw terrain files and appointing estate managers. The former 'owner', who is now called 'Payor', can no longer interact with the land and make changes, BUT they are still the real owner and can file a ticket to take back full ownership and remove the other person. The way the person in concierge live chat described it the owner who becomes the payor is like a silent partner, they just pay the LL tier bill and can change the situation back to status quo whenever they choose by filing a ticket with no charge. I am not sure if the 'owner' can make changes like moving sim or changing sim name, but the concierge said that 'major changes' can only be done by the Payor - such as conversion, transfer, or cancellation. Therefore, the owner in name can NOT sell the sim, no full transfer can be done, only the payor can do that.

[Lisa006 Baxton]

Very good to know