Latest update from virwox about L$ excahnges

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Kahlie Niven wrote:

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Lindal Kidd wrote:

...haven't you read the TOS lately?

Actually, all of us are responsible for what happens to us, in both SL and RL.  It's just harder to ignore it in SL.

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I already did, thanks. We may have no rights as resident, overall, though, we still ha a right : the 30 days delay.

 

Quoting :

 

1. CHANGES TO THIS AGREEMENT

This Agreement may be changed by Linden Lab effective immediately by notifying you as provided in Section 13.4 below; provided that

Material Changes

will become effective thirty (30) days after such notification. By continuing to access or use Second Life after the effective date of any such change, you agree to be bound by the modified Terms of Service.

A "Material Change" is a change to this Agreement which reduces your contractual rights or increases your responsibilities under this Agreement in a significant manner.

 

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The only change to the TOS itself was removing the paragraph referring to the Risk API. How did this significantly reduce contractural rights or increase responsibilities? Third party exchanges were always referred to as being unauthorized.

---edited to mean what I meant to say instead of the exact opposite.

[Jadeclaw Denfu]

The question is, to whom this is a material change?
To someone with a valid creditcard and / or working PayPal surely not.
To someone without a creditcard it may, depending how urgent the need to buy L$ is.
To the TPEs definately. Or to quote from the mail of one TPE to me: "This is not a brain fart, this is napalm...".

It really depends on the point of view and the Lab is not known for communicating well.
And since we still don't know all the facts behind this clusterf... we don't know, if ignoring the 30-day rule was forced
on the Lab by the government (Stop it, or else...). I'm willing to cut the Lab some slack here to a certain degree.

To the resident losing US$900,-- due to the Lab's slow payout: Talk to your bank. Try to get agreed overdraft
established as a fall back, as that would be much cheaper. Here in Germany, agreed overdraft is standard
on most bank accounts, e.g. the equivalent of US$2500,-- cost me US$20,-- in interest per month.
It works automatically and no extra fees are incurred. If you have a good relationship with your bank
and a good credit rating, something should be possible. Unless it's the Bank of America. In that case, run for your life.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

The Terms of Service take pains to say that Linden dollars are not to be considered real money and anything involving Lindens can be modified at any time without notice and have said so long before this change. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, only that this is what the Terms of Service SAY. Therefore, the change TO THE TOS wasn't a MATERIAL change.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Kahlie Niven wrote:

the point is: LL has generated a small liquidity crisis in SL...and they urgently rushed to solve half of it...because they didn't respect the 1st rule of their TOS (and they could be sued for it).

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 I am sure they could be sued for it, though with what success is another question.    Seems to me that LL could say that all they've done is invited TPEs voluntarily to cease trading before the new ToS came into effect.    All but one, Podex, voluntarily complied.    Podex didn't, and found themselves suspended, presumably under item 11.4 of the ToS,

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We may suspend or terminate your Account if we determine in our discretion that such action is necessary or advisable to comply with legal requirements or protect the rights or interests of Linden Lab, the Second Life community or any third party.

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So I am not really sure who could sue LL over this, other than maybe PoDex.   LL's defence would be that provided in 11.4.

[Eddy Bouvier]

Well, not me - that's for sure. Unlike some others, i don't earn a 4-figure USD monthly income out of SecondLife. And the little amount that i do earn on a yearly basis isn't enough to go sue someone over. It's just a pain in the butt, this whole TOS change.

And in the end. WHY?
Within a few months, the people they are trying to hit (the ones that use SL for money laundering and other illegal practices) will find some kind of loophole and be right back to their old business. So the only one that got hurt was the people that have used the TPEs in the past and were happy with their service, exchanging a few hundred dollars worth of lindens they earned the honest way.

[Innula Zenovka]

Yeah, but the question isn't really "does it do any good?" but "does it put LL in compliance with what they've been advised are now their legal responsibilities?".    Presumably it does (I certainly hope so).

 

[Dillon Levenque]

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Eddy Bouvier wrote:

Somehow, it seems you're missing the point... You are right: they'll make a loss if they continue as they have  - that's what i was trying to explain.

 

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It is difficult to know what you meant. I was responding to what you said:

"If they have to buy their L$ on the Lindex, they're forced to resell them at a higher price (if they still want to make a profit). This will also kill the exchange market at all the 3rd party exchanges, as no money is allowed to flow out:"

If I missed the point, blame yourself. I responded to your comment, which said nothing about what Virwox had done in the past.

[Kahlie Niven]

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Jadeclaw Denfu wrote:

...

To the resident losing US$900,-- due to the Lab's slow payout: Talk to your bank. Try to get agreed overdraft

established as a fall back, as that would be much cheaper. Here in Germany, agreed overdraft is standard

on most bank accounts, e.g. the equivalent of US$2500,-- cost me US$20,-- in interest per month.

It works automatically and no extra fees are incurred. If you have a good relationship with your bank

and a good credit rating, something should be possible. Unless it's the Bank of America. In that case, run for your life.

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that's what did. I got a 500 € agreed overdraft (that can last a month) + a 2400 € revolving credit yet fully available in case of urgency.

 

 

[Kahlie Niven]

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Eddy Bouvier wrote:

Well, not me - that's for sure. Unlike some others, i don't earn a 4-figure USD monthly income out of SecondLife. And the little amount that i do earn on a yearly basis isn't enough to go sue someone over. It's just a pain in the butt, this whole TOS change.

And in the end. WHY?

Within a few months, the people they are trying to hit (the ones that use SL for money laundering and other illegal practices) will find some kind of loophole and be right back to their old business. So the only one that got hurt was the people that have used the TPEs in the past and were happy with their service, exchanging a few hundred dollars worth of lindens they earned the honest way.

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Hi Eddy,

 

As you mentionned, yes, money launderers will find some new ways to use SL to wash money from crime (and some loopholes came up into my mind about it). About merchants, well...they grumble then they adapt to the new situation, as usual (and I'm one of them I agree).

 

PS: That's cool to see you're still one of my customers after 3 years, and with 20,700 L$ spent for my services ^^

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Kahlie Niven wrote:

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Eddy Bouvier wrote:

Well, not me - that's for sure. Unlike some others, i don't earn a 4-figure USD monthly income out of SecondLife. And the little amount that i do earn on a yearly basis isn't enough to go sue someone over. It's just a pain in the butt, this whole TOS change.

And in the end. WHY?

Within a few months, the people they are trying to hit (the ones that use SL for money laundering and other illegal practices) will find some kind of loophole and be right back to their old business. So the only one that got hurt was the people that have used the TPEs in the past and were happy with their service, exchanging a few hundred dollars worth of lindens they earned the honest way.

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Hi Eddy,

 

As you mentionned, yes,

money launderers will find some new ways to use SL to wash money from crime

(and some loopholes came up into my mind about it). About merchants, well...they grumble then they adapt to the new situation, as usual

(and I'm one of them I agree).

 

PS: That's cool to see you're still one of my customers after 3 years, and with 20,700 L$ spent for my services ^^

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Basic problem with your logic - you're assuming there are people who specifically "use SL to wash money." No, there are people who wash money - some of them use SL because it's the most convenient option but they don't really care about how they do it. Linden Lab doesn't have to make it IMPOSSIBLE to wash money, just less convenient than what is now the next-most-convenient option.

[Eddy Bouvier]

If it makes you any happier, i could pay you in euros or bitcoins .. lol - no wait ... you're my ticket to get at least some lindens out.

Wow, i spent 20k already? what can i say.. service is good, few outtages, and we always get a "sorry" note when it does happen.