Toysoldier Thor

Thanks Drongle for the detailed explanantion. It was helpful. The only part that doesnt make sense but I can see this is the case regardless is that a Mesh MUST HAVE a physics shape. I know now that you are saying - this is the rule.... but Why? My understanding is that a mesh has a rez / display shape which is the shape we all see in front of us. And a mesh has a Physics shape which is an invisible shape in the mesh that is used to deal with collision interaction with other objects on the sim.... i.e. this is the shape that my avatar would bump into but that i cannot see. Unless my understanding is completely wrong, then IF I decided that I want to have a mesh that requires NO physicial interaction with other objects on the sim.... (i.e. identical to a basic prim with Phantom enabled), why would I be forced to give a mesh model a physics element that it does not need and force the Sim engine to have to put processing power resources to handle the physics of a mesh that does not need physics? Am I missing something here? Specially in light of LL Mesh team and their closest follower constantly harping on the deep need to reduce lag at all cost. So this poses a couple naive mesh questions to the LL Mesh team..... Why cant my Mesh Model Uploader have an option that says "NO PHYSICS" and that the sim engine would not force a Convex Hull to be default placed on the mesh? Wouldnt this reduce sim lag? Related to this..... since right now I cannot tell the mesh to have NO PHYSICS because LL forces the Convex Hull upon my mesh anyway...... I am forced to make the mesh PHANTOM. But then as far as I see, even though my phantom mesh should be far more efficient by opting it out of any need to place physics handling resources, my mesh IS NOT REWARDED for reduce lag in the form of a reduce LI. Why? I am sure there are many technical reasons but doesnt seem to make sense to me.

Zanara Zenovka wrote: Toysoldier Thor wrote: I know some SL Residents dont care if Viewer Tagging and Color Tagging were to go but that does not dismiss that others find it valuable. Zanara stated earlier that she is happy to see it go. I said no such thing. Learn to read or stop making things up, whichever deficiency accounts for your constant fabrications. And right from the horse's mouth in this thread of you being happy to see a menace go away (menace to you but likely not to others).... Toysoldier Thor wrote: Actually it that they are braking Viewer Tags this week. online status is in the next couple weeks but he wasnt sure. Just as well - those high-speed viewer tags racing all over the grid are a serious menace!

I know what you are saying but I might put it in a different spin .... Since the viewer's given away for free and needs to have some degree of support, it's actually a net liability. Where they make their money is people using the service and "buying" products and land, and what viewer people use doesn't make any difference. Although I'm sure the viewer team at Linden Lab has an ordinary sense of pride in what they do, it would show a complete lack of business sense for them to worry about whether you got your viewer by paying nothing to Linden Lab or by paying nothing to the developers of Phoenix or any other viewer. True that LL nor the TPV creators make $0 on the viewer they distribute. So LL's continual back of the back position in the SL Viewer usage marketshare has no direct impact to LL in terms of direct revenue as a result of its trailing position of Viewer usage. In fact, the term "maketshare" is a poor term to use.... Phoneix leads and LL trails in SL Viewer Adoption-share And True that LL makes ALL their revenue from the actual SL Customer activities occuring both inworld and on Markeplace. So technically speaking on a tactical Customer transaction view of the scenario, what Viewer a customer uses to execute this transaction/activity that LL makes revenue on makes no difference. BUT ... Since the level for revenue generated by SL for LL from their customers is primarily based on the size of their Customer base interacting with SL and the number of ways that each customer can expend their $US / $L cash into LL's pockets, it is critical for LL to be able to ensure they can control what and when and how fast they can deploy new functions, services, "spend points" for customers to spend on. i.e. the more new cool toys, features, functions, services introduced onto the SL grid, the more potential that money will be spent on these new products/services and hoepfully the more customers that will decide against leaving SL because they are bored or new customers join because its something new that excites them enough to join SL. So.... the key element here related to the entire TPV issue and Oz's new TPV targeted policies is all centered around LL wanting to regain control of new services want to introduce into SL. They have known for quite some time that their early days decision to fully endorse and promote Open Source for both the grid and the viewers has become a fundamental flaw that has been biting them for some time - over and over. But LL management also knew that trying to fundamentally reverse this key decision would be a hugely painful and complicated and possibly even SL destroying decision. Too many years of evolutionary third party inter-dependencies have entrenched on this architecture to back out. BUT... when Rodvik and LL Management watched how slow mesh was and still is taking to fully adopt onto the SL grid for all customers to enjoy the "common experience", I think Rodvik likely sent a message from the top of the mountain to his minions that.... "We need to start regaining control of SL grid - this means we need to start the process of pushing the TPV developers off our grid and repatriating the viewer to be LL proprietary and exclusive to LL" If LL could snap their fingers and make them the 100% only viewer on the SL grid, there would be huge wins for them (maybe not us customers but surely them). They could have developed and deployed Mesh onto the grid and then FORCED all SL customers to upgrade to LL Viewer 3 with full mesh support. SL customers could have kicked and grumbled and all the bugs that LL viewer users experienced would have happened but as LL loves to always say "Too Bad just deal with it". LL could have more quickly deployed MP DD (cough cough - yeah right - that was only a statement in theory) since LL would not have to worry about the pace at which TPV incorporated the needed viewer changes - especially Phoenix who is the adoption-place leader. LL could also have dramatically reduced the continuous huge problem of inworld copy botting since much of this happens because of illicit versions of the viewer code. Forget about all the disadvantages that SL would experience if TPV were not in existence. All the lost innovation that TPVs brought in that LL refused to or didnt even understand was what their own customers were wanting. Its all about LL regaining control of the viewer. And that is why anyone that says Oz's new policies are trivial and innocent and not intended to start choking out TPVs is either naive or deceptive. Rodvik wants to see LL regain complete control of the viewer so that LL can control their ability to introduce new services or take SL in what ever direction LL wants it to go.

Linda, I completely agree as I would think 95% of anyone else would agree that LL owns and controls SL. The problem that many of us are royally frustrated with at LL is the "Bigger Picture" and how LL is utterly not aware of it or completely does not care about it. Let me explain... You are right in that LL created it. They are essentially both GOD & GOVERNMENT of SL. They set down the fundamental architecture and rules around SL - which included their whole-hearted endorsement and support for OpenSource integration by many 3rd parties into their SL service. And for ~8 years they have followed the principles behind it. And dare I say this to point out how powerful they are and fragile we are.... LL can walk into their Data Center and pull the BRS ("Big Red Switch") and instantly make the world of SL go POOF! And all us customers and all our communities and all our clubs and galleries and stores and products and services and RL revenues and many relations, love affairs, friendships..... THEY ALL GO POOF at the whim and decision of LL. Of course you would agree that over all these years, LL has created a very large "CUSTOMER BASE" (aka SL residents but often many ppl even LL forgets that SL residents are LL's actual customers). Over all these years, a huge portion of these customers have put trust in LL's SL architecture and fundamental operating policies and deployed technologies (like how LSL code works and the roles of the servers vs the viewers) and the delegated rights and permissions that LL has granted to many of us.... like TPV makers, content creators, SL services providers, etc. So... although you are 100% correct that LL own SL and has literally the God Given Rights to change what ever they want in SL, what LL constantly is utterly unaware of or does not care about is the impact and ramifications of even the smallest decisions or actions the make. Of course they can destory the world of SL if they wish that to happen. They also can decide to continue to have some of the worst Customer Service practices in the industry. If we dont like it then we can go to other Virtual Worlds. But all that being said, common sense would tell anyone that when a company in the position of LL has evolved themselves to become such a powerful GOD & Government to such a huge virtual world of their customers who themselves have built their own livelihood and dependencies on LL's SL world... there SHOULD BE a sense of responsibility if not accountability on LL's part to look out for the interests of all citizens of the virtual world they own. So to see LL taking irresponsible, naive and careless actions and decisions like what Oz Linden announced last week - where it has now become painfully clear to him and his policy making staff how little he and LL even knows about their own SL product and their customers that depend on it... this is where the SL Customers get hair-pulling frustrated. Sadly, Oz Lindens bonehead polices of last week are surely not the first. If you are a merchant of SL then you have witness over a year of the current LL Commerce Team's inept handling of SL's Marketplace and lack of communications with us Merchants and several mistakes that have cost us Merchants over and over as they experiment and play with the businesses we have built upon the SL architecture and MP website. The ironic joke that made me laugh when I listened to Oz's audio and the TPVs challenged Oz that LL has a long standing terrible history of dragging their feet or nor delivering on ideas presented to LL, Oz had the nerve to to say that there is a NEW LL Management in place and the mistakes of old are now behind all of us!! Cough Cough!! He was saying this in the very meeting that he was making and announcing the latest edition of LL's mistakes of old ! So... Linda... you are right. LL can do what they want. They have the right. But LL should not be surprised in the least when they take on their evolved role of God & Government with so little awareness of the world they govern and with such little care about the impacts to their decision. The current LL Management is just the latest generation of the same old immature LL we have all known for all these years. Oz fits right in with all the LL leaders of old. <me gets of his soapbox again>

So I logged into Firestorm to see these details... and I used the same mesh sizes you did as well as one huge one for my music notes... both with and without Physics and both with 7 scripts loaded in them.... At a size of 25m x 25m x 25m Mesh with Physics: = 137.0 download / 0.9 physics / 1.0 server Mesh with No Physics = 137.0 download / 0.3 physics / 1.0 server At a size of ... 0.4x0.4x0.4 Mesh with Physics: = 0.3 download / 0.9 physics / 1.0 server Mesh with No Physics = 0.5 download / 0.3 physics / 1.0 server 0.5x0.5x0.5 Mesh with Physics: = 0.4 download / 0.9 physics / 1.0 server Mesh with No Physics = 0.5 download / 0.3 physics / 1.0 server 1x1x1 Mesh with Physics: = 0.5 download / 0.9 physics / 1.0 server Mesh with No Physics = 0.7 download / 0.3 physics / 1.0 server 5x5x5 Mesh with Physics: = 6.3 download / 0.9 physics / 1.0 server Mesh with No Physics = 6.4 download / 0.3 physics / 1.0 server Seems consistent for my tests of both my meshes but i do believe your tests were weird as the first time I tested when i posted this thread I saw weird LI results.

OK... that explains it. I am on Phoenix 1.6

me neither. Maybe LL decided to listen and removed Physics and Scripts off the LI factors. Wouldnt that be nice if that were true. Still doesnt help my specific category of SL business since the one factor that has a HUGEEE factor on LI is the size of the mesh. My 64meter music notes has an LI of 537.when it was 1 at initial 2.5meter rez size.

Aveline... how did you get those breakdown LI values on the rezzed mesh? And maybe the jumping up and down of the scripts at certain sizes - flying up and dropping down - are why I saw such weird results the first time. I thought it was just me!

Thanks Maeve but as you can see from my last posting, when I went back to the grid and did the exact tests once again.... the LI values were completely different than from the first time I did the test. I do normally upload mesh with a LOWEST LOD Auto-Generated with a vertices count of 10 then I set my physics to the lowest LOD. I dont create a custom one as I dont need any specific collision shape but it assures that I cant walk through my art. BUT Maeve, what I also noticed and posted just now was that Physics or no physics..... it didnt change the LI at all. Even when I loaded both mesh with 7 scripts. Scripts and Physics made no difference to my two mesh. Is the Beta Grid not stable which is why I say inconsistant LI results between the two tests?

OK I went back and did the root prim test again as well as I went thru all the tests on resizing and script insertion and ressize reduction...... 1) Yup I got the prim cube backward.... when it was the root - the mesh was allowed to be NONE. Mystery solved on that one 2) Now this doesnt make sense so I guess it was just a Beta sim lag or anomaly, because when I rezzed the two notes again, both had an LI=1. Then resized them both to 10x10x3 like last time and both had their LI increase to 17. I added 7 scripts to both mesh models and the LI stayed at 17 for both. BUT... when reduce both mesh models down to 2.5 meters this time, both mesh models went to and LI = 1. so...... at least on the tests I see here on the Beta Grid, Script and a very low vertices Physics on a mesh doesnt seem to have any impact to the mesh. This is great news.... but I am confused why adding scripts and adding physics has no LI impact. Just for Shoots & Giggles I resized both my physics and non physics models to 64x64x20 . The LI skyrocketed to 537 on both of them. Again this indicates that Scripts and Physics has no impact. The only impact that has any impact to the LI (in a huge way) was the size of the mesh.

No I am not sure now that you say that if the root prim was the cube then it should have worked. I will have to go back and try it again. As for the physics shape, I didnt create a Custome LOD but I set the LOW LOD to 10 vertices which was just high enough to place physics into the legs of the note. BUT, why does the initial rez physics shape type get selected to CONVEX if it should be PRIM for a mesh's physics to collide properly? Convex type seems to be doing to my mesh what it does to any other prim like a torus. I just set it to Prim and my physics was being honored. I could walk thru the arch and I would collide with the legs. As for your last statement... thats not exactly what I said. I said that when the Notes are resized to 10meters, both scripting and physics factors on either note had NO IMPACT. It seems like just the download factor of that large mesh size was the largest LI factor and therefore it seems that this trumped any factors to scripts or physics. BUT.... The part that makes no sense is that when I resized both mesh notes back down to 2.5meters, the mesh with physics & scripts got hard realllll hard with LI (LI=13 when it was LI=1 without scripts) yet the mesh with no physics was not hit at all by the the 7 loaded scripts in its mesh (i.e. LI=1 with or without the 7 scripts). Question.... why is my mesh with physics being penalized so hard for having a script vs my mesh with no physics?? This makes no sense in calculating LI. Based on this current logic, if had a mesh that needed a script - I would try to upload it WITHOUT physics or else the mesh will be slammed for have having a script. Makes no sense to me.

Yes I know the Mesh smart ones know all this but this is for Pamela and any mesh noobs that also want to know. So I am working on a project where I am creating Music notes. One of them is a note symbol that will be used as an entry archway. But when I uploaded the first one and rezzed it in, I noticed that I could not walk through the archway. The picture below show as far as I could get before getting blocked. The 1st one that I am trying to wlak thru was imported with Physics. The LOD was at its lowest of 10 and the preview physics structure showed that the physics was only in the legs - not in the gap. Yet when I rezzed it - you can see I cannot walk thru it. So I looked at the Physics Shape Type and I noticed that convex Hull was selected. With a hollow prim, if you select Convex Hull - the hollow space is physics covered. But I didnt think this was the case for Mesh. So I selected PRIM. When I did I was able to walk thru the arch and bump into the legs (as I would expect). This first Note Arch had a Rez LI of 1.4 with only 3 LODs (lowest used lower) and lower set at 10 vertices and with a texture. When I resized it from its initial size of 2.5x2.5x.9 to the size you see of 10x10x3, the LI flew up from 1 to 17. So I thought I would do a test and I uploaded the same mesh and this time I did not set a physics at all. Everything else was set the same. I was thinking "Well if a mesh comes into SL with NO Physics - it should be much more LI efficient right?" The 2nd arch you see has no physics and its calculated LI was almost identical at just under 1.4 even though it had no physics. When I rezzed it beside the other one and increased its size to the same 10x10x3, it ended up having the identical LI of 17 even without physics. Also, this mesh lost a physics shape type of "PRIM" and only had Convex and NONE. So the only way to walk thru it was to set it to phantom. So... now I have a Mesh with no uploaded physics AND set to Phantom and yet once again my mesh with the same startnig LI as my first mesh with physics has the same LI when 10m large. So then I decided to add a script to both these 10Meter mesh models and it did not change the LI at all. Heck I even added 7 scripts into the meshes and it did not change the LI. BUT, when I reduced the meshes down to its initial rez size of 2.5m, everything changed!! For the first mesh with physics the LI only dropped from 17 to 13. But for the Mesh with no physics the script loaded mesh dropped from 17 to 1. wha??? why would a mesh with physics and scripts get hit with such a massive LI impact vs a mesh with no physics? What does physics have to do with a script being in the mesh or not? That doesnt seem to make any sense at all for LI calculation? But what Kwak was trying to say on script impact on large mesh makes sense. I do feel bad for anyone that has to create a mesh with scripts AND physics. If you want to avoid a huge script penalty on a mesh - try not to make the mesh with physics. Scripts penalties seem to be 0 on meshes with no physics. Not sure the LL logic on that but ohh well - good to know. Some other questions I have: Why can I not select NONE as a physics type? I get the error "you cannot set the root prim to have no shape". What??? I wasnt setting a shape - I was setting a Physics Shape Type. And this mesh has no Physics so why cant I set the shape type to none?Related to Q#1, I rezed a prim cube and linked it to this mesh and then tried to set the mesh to NONE. But even though the cube was the Root, I still got the error. So what is the purpose of the Physics Shape Type of NONE?Why in the Upload Mesh Model interface can I not select a Physics LOD of NONE? The only way you can set the Physics to NONE is if you never touch the option at all. If you happen to change it to any LOD and then decide you would rather set it back to NONE - you cant. You need to cancel and restart the Upload Model and not touch the LOD parameter. Why is NO LOD not an option? There you have it. So Mesh Smart Ones... what are your answers and thoughts?

you are as confused as I was / am when Oz and the LL team was talking about it in the audio. If you can clear up the confusion, please post it here.

Baloo Uriza wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Second, yes I know hosting costs money, etc, etc, but is the fact they are running a business the only thing that makes them legitimate? I know a multi SIM owner who has been unable to log in to their main account for three weeks now and is at risk of losing their investment because she keeps getting responses like you see in this thread: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/What-is-Live-Chat-for/m-p/1391405#M51765 So teh adult haxors at LL after taking her money all these years are just gonna let her lose all her work? I'm supposed to feel bad for someone's failed business model? Perrie Juran wrote: Third, yes I know anyone can have a bad day. As a business person myself, I have had bad days. That still did not excuse my not taking care of my customers. How do you think the FS Devs all feel when they keep getting labeled as teh kiddie haxors over and over again, when the many continue to get smeared for the past actions of a few? Maybe if they did some visible good in their own name, that would change. But seems like they work on Firestorm because no other TPV team would have 'em at this point. WOW Baloo you really have a hate on for this team of volunteers that have done a lot to introduce features and technologies that LL could not think of or initially refused to do themselves. Seems you must have been dissed by them and have a thorn in your side about all thing Phoenix. I have had the pleasure to meet a couple of the Phoenix team about 1.5 years ago and since then I have found them all to be amazing ppl that have a passionate level of commitment and caring to provide the best viewer on the LL SL grid (no denying they are the market leader even though they do not get paid for their efforts and LL developers do). I have had problems with Phoenix and when I contact them they are extremely responsive and approachable. They answer their JIRA's promptly and engage in the jira discussions - unlike most times with LL. AND they have even stepped up when asked to try to help with a JIRA that is completely LL's problem yet LL refuses to fix the 4 year old Jira. As for them having a FAILED BUSINESS MODEL.... this proves how little you are informed about Phoenix. A business model assumes that there is a business being run with the objective to making a profit. This is what LL is TRYING to do. This is NOT what the Phoenix team is trying to do. They are not running a business. They are a team that just loves to develop and grow the best TPV on the SL grid and they do it with no compensation from LL nor you nor any other resident in SL. PS... this is likely how many of the other TPV's run their model as well - out of the goodness of their own heart. YET LL steps in and kicks these TPV developers in the gut with these bogus Privacy and shared experience policies like what Oz released. LL tries to make their life a living hell by changing the game on them in hopes that they fail. And then FanBoys like you step in and kick these teams and making false accusations to these teams when you have NO RIGHTS to speak for a product or team that you dont use nor interact with nor compensate in any way. You should be royally ticked off at the one player in this game that is supposed to provide you the best service and DOES get compensated for your activity in their game. You should be ticked off at LL for the horrible customer service they provide and how they are so out of touch with what is going on in their own SL service. andddddd..... that is why you are labeled a FanBoy. Not an opinion... just the facts of how you fit the label.

Niall Braveheart wrote: AS of TUESDAY & WEDNESDAY friend Color Tagging and Viewer Tagging would be broken. Its in the audio. I can see how they could stop the viewer tagging, by supressing whatever information they are providing on what viewers are being used, I can't really see how they can stop the Friend Colour tagging.,, The viewer knows who's near you and the viewer knows who's on your friends list ... so sure it's wouldn't be difficult for the viewer to reender the name tag in he appropiate colour depending on whether the AV is a friend or not. And if an AV is in view whether they've chosen to hide their online status or not is pretty much irrelevant. I do not understand the technical reasons why but from what I heard Oz say is that because of their disabling of the Viewer Tagging, the Color tagging breaks as part of it but Oz was ok with this as he stated LL wanted this function disabled anyway for some obscure privacy reason that puzzles me. Maybe someone that understood exactly what Oz was trying to say can better explain it but basically IF Oz pulls the trigger on viewer tagging (which he said was already starting to happen on the sim their were on last friday) then friend color tagging will go with it.. I know some SL Residents dont care if Viewer Tagging and Color Tagging were to go but that does not dismiss that others find it valuable. Zanara stated earlier that she is happy to see it go. Thats fine, but one could also find residents in SL that would be happy to see True Online Status go as for them it doesnt affect them personally. What anyone that cares about the OZ policies and its impacts and i speaking up on their concerns should be concerned about is how the policy impacts the SL Customer base ... even if it does not impact him or her personally. they should be looking at the bigger picture when debating Oz's policies not just those that impact their personal interests. As such, even though I personally would not be too upset with Viewer Tagging disappearing, I do fully understand and respect the fact that others do care and find it valuable. i.e. if you happen to be a SL NOOB Helper and you can see the viewer over the noob's head and provide quicker more effective help to the Noob. Or if you run a club (like Karaoke) and a new member walks into the club and has trouble getting stream or voice working.... seeing the member's viewer tag makes it real easy to explain what the function is not working for them because of the viewer used and its config. I do personally LOVE FRIEND COLOR TAGGING!!! I live for it often. Its a critical feature I always use. I love the color tags on the mini radar when I land in a crowrded sim and I can see where my friends are at a crowded concert with 50 ppl attending. If this is what will be breaking this week (IF Oz goes forward with this) then that is real sad.

No Ceka, you were not. Your post had some execellent questions being posed - sorry I didnt respond to some of them. Your post was completely on-topic and it didnt sound at all like a Fan-Girl posting. I think what so many forum observers and participants might get confused is what a LL Fan-Person or CheerLeader is vs someone that logically can see reasoning behind a LL decision or action that the general public is angry about. A LL CheerLeader is one that throws the topic itself away and almost acts like a verbal bodyguard or bully to defend LL's honor. You can easily identify them because their posting will have almost no facts or content related to the topic but instead their content will be all focused on attacking the poster in a thread the was dissing LL or their decisions. Their focus when provoked into action will be to make personal attacks, name call, discredit the poster's reputataion, go on a personal skeleton digging witch hunt and post this information in hopes to try to scare away those that might post evil against LL. Sadly from experience, these "cheerleaders" are often quietly rewarded by LL when forum ARs are submitted against them for their forum TOS violations and no actions are taken by the LL moderator. I have seen it far too often. So... to me... that is how you identify a LL Cheerleader. They are not someone that support LL's decision and make forum posts to explain possibly why LL made a decision. I do not have issues with anyone like this. In fact, I encourage this since LL (at least the LL Commerce group) rarely communicates with us publically and often the general community gets much of its best LL inner workings from these LL supporters that happen to have back room insights on what LL was thinking. I personally find the threads I gain the most from are the ones where participants can possibly take different views and even passionately post their beliefs, opinions, theories, and support for a given side of a subject - even if its contrary to the other thread participant. And I also feel all participants can post passionate lively countering challenges to these posted facts, opinions, thoughts, support. Sorry for the long winded response... you to me - you were all good.

When I get a chance to create an example I surely will. I have been heads down working on a MESH Artwork submission for the UWA monthly challenge that has a deadline of this Thursday and I still have about 10 more models to create for my submission. You are a lot smarter in mesh that I so maybe there is a trick on how to apply a script to a mesh with little penalty. A couple quick things I tried with poor results was linking a mesh with a sculpty - Eeek - the LI flew up (I want to place one of my mesh statues on one of my Sculpty Rocks and link them but it was better to just keep them non-linked). I havent tried linking an alpha prim to a mesh object and see if the LI is different than if I just put the script in the mesh. So far the biggest impact on Mesh LI penalties is scale of the object. LI does not go up linearly with size - it seems to go up exponential. But right now I have only done some minor experiments and not sat on the Beta grid for an hour trying different scenarios out. Maybe next week.

Toysoldier Thor wrote: Actually it that they are braking Viewer Tags this week. online status is in the next couple weeks but he wasnt sure. Just as well - those high-speed viewer tags racing all over the grid are a serious menace!

Zanara Zenovka wrote: Toysoldier Thor wrote: You clearly have no level of usderstanding just how many products and services use true online status to run store, clubs, staffing, support, distribution of products and updates,etc. etc. And then for Oz to announce it on Friday and tell the TPV's that they will break it 5 days later when Oz and LL had clearly no clue of the impacts to their decision. [,,,] But they will be impacted when their inworld products that rely upon True Online stop woking this week. Where are you getting "5 days" and "this week" from? Do you have a reference source for that? Audio said there would be nothing earlier than 2 weeks, at the minimum, and then it would follow the normal RC channel progression, and none of Oz's subsequent posts that I've seen have said anything about it being sooner. listen to the audio stream - Oz was going to break the true online status this week - tues / wednesday.

LOL.... Well I read on the Jira that Oz has started to have second thoughts about his policy decisions. He still is making the stance that there actually is a legit "PRIVACY" issue in SL on virtual SL accounts that needs protecting and that its so critical as if LL is trying to protect the privacy of RL humans as opposed to Avatars on a Virtual world (eeek dare I say charactors on a game). But at least all the slam of protests against Oz's out of the blue policies has made him think twice. I will give him that much credit - the old LL would not even have let the most massive of Customer Protests stop them.... remember the Homelands ?

Ironically Oz said in his audio to paraphrase "we are a new LL with new management and we are not the old LL tht made a lot of mistakes". And yet as he speaks how he and the current LL management are different, better, and more responsible, his very own policies that he was announcing that day was a Poster Child example of some of LL's most classic horrid mistakes of the past. If we take OZ's statements at face at face value where he was completely down-playing how these policies were no biggy as as far as he knows they will not really hurt anyone. He naively believed that these changes would have no serious impacts on the TPV developers (cough cough). He didnt think the changes in the name of privacy shouldnt really hurt any residents in SL. He was not aware of the 1000's of products selling or sold that rely upon critical features like True Online Status. When a few example came up from the TPV developers, he and his LL team basically shrugged and didnt care (i.e. I dont care about all residents that havent updated their viewers). He said what all old "bad" LL management always did... when he said that the few products that need to update their products from the changes will simply have to update. No care how much work and hassle that is. He had no clue that us Merchants that write scripts and sell them for all these years based on code they trusted LL would not suddenly changed on a whim would all of a sudden have entire selling and sold product lines that dont work. He didnt think about who would pay the customers back for products they bought from merchants that LL BROKE! And then Oz pull another classic OLD BAD LL trick.... when he announces that nto only is LL making fundamental changes that he thought were trival but that there was no negotiating and that the first of these changes would happen in 5 days !! And Oz believed this was ample time for the TPV's to get the message out.... heck he and LL didnt even plan to informing the rest of the SL residents at all.... like the Merchants. He hoped the news would just get out by word of mouth. I found out about the Oz Fiasco at my Karaoke club when it was the main local chat warning to all the members the LL will be screwing us all with new policies. So isnt it ironic how OZ is bragging in the audio conference - almost with arrogance - that he and the current LL management are not the evil terrible LL management of old.... when he was being exactly them with this classic move. The LL Commerce Team is the other comedy fest of current management that makes one big mistake after another. Like the MP damaging DD deployment work and now this up-coming ALL-IN-ONE RECEIVE Folder that is universally hated but LL will deploy it anyway. Nothing has changed at LL.

again I agree with you. Even though I have made a few very low poly count natural shaped analog shaped mesh, as soon as i size the mesh to 15 or 20 meters the LI starts to fly up. The problem is that the LL Mesh Team is as technical PURIST in solving all the inworld's Lag woes onto the backs of only one type of object in SL... the MESH. They are not will to compromise in order to try to further encourage the use of mesh over prims and sculpties which they keep harping to everyone is a lag fest. Well if the prims and sculpties are so laggy and undesirable... then its absolutely poor strategy to only place heavy penalties on the one shape they want to encourage. I am in no rush to overhaul my suclpty products with mesh versions. But this is a fundamental problem with LL staff and management... their culture is not business its a culture of techies and so to them the purity of making sure MESH will not make the same technical mistakes of sculpties and prims is the #1 priority - even if it means a much slower adoption of mesh while the laggy but much lower LI rez costs of script loaded mega prims continue to thrive. Ohh well, at least it gives me more time to learn mesh to make art statues and small items. Its fun to make Mesh art - its a fun thing to play with in SL until LL someday levels the playing field.

Pamela Galli wrote: Is there any chance at all of reducing the mesh script penalty? It really puts mesh at a disadvantage compared to, say, sculpts -- and in fact this is one of the reasons I heard for not adopting mesh in the thread I started in GD: sculpts are just as low prim, if not lower. No one realizes that a mesh item can be very low prim -- until a script is added. This penalty seems the sort of thing one would want to do to discourage, not encourage, adoption. I fully back your statement Pamela.... It is one of several reasons why I am not making MESH terrains and sticking with Sculpties. Try to make an water texture flowing large sim waterfall for 1 prim when you add an animation script to boot. Mesh LI is already penalized over all other prims.... then it gets a major additional kick that no other prims has to deal with when you drop a script in a mesh. Same script in any prim.... NO PENALTY. Ohh well... the mesh penalty has been set by LL and creators and merchant make decisions if they use and sell mesh based on it. But it sure would be nice if LL compromised when it comes to mesh and gives it a fighting chance against prims/sculpties. I might even consider experimenting with a mesh landscape pack if that were the case.

Deej Kasshiki wrote: Some in this discussion are longtime LL apologists and attack anything having to do with TPVs. Their usual lame tactic is to play the "ebil Emerald devs" card. Yawn. I'd just ignore them Toy. They don't want discussion or exchange of ideas. Thanks Deej As a 3+ year forum poster - mostly in the Merchant forums, I have come across and dealt with some of LL's finest cheerleaders, fanboys, apologists, etc. that in the past even set up secret behind-the-scene Cheerleader Forum gangs in order to control the forums I was participating on. They also had the quiet support from LL when us "evil LL bashing trolls" (as myself and others that criticized LL policies, strategies, poor customer service, etc.) were too powerful against them. I have a lot of SL Forum scars from here. So I know very well how these LL Defenders work and they are usually very easy to deal with. All you do is pick apart their off-topic attacks and make them explain their posting. Most often they slither back into hiding. Sometimes they dont. I have absolutely no issue having a lively on-topic discussion with any forum poster that can debate logical arguments that can explain or defend LL's actions. I will listen and I might agree or debate their posting. But I do not tolerate off-topic LL Dedending attacks that are not on topic. Thanks for the posting

LOL Miranda.... you have to be kidding us if you think anyone believes you that LL quickly resolves JIRAs.... Here is the poster child of JIRA Jokes from LL. BTW this JIRA even had Oz Linden poke his head into the jira last spring after I publically embarassed Rodvik on Twitter about this JIRA and that I contacted the Phoenix Team to see if they could provide some assistance to the JIRA and they stated they would try. And you can see from the entire comment thread how much effort Oz Linden put into resolving this long standing bug. NOTHING! Why is this JIRA the poster child of LL's poor handling of JIRA's.... BECAUSE IT IS NOW OVER 4 YEARS OLD !!! https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28409 So please dont tell us how quickly LL fix bugs in SL..... proof is in the pudding.