Luna Bliss

Almost everyone else. I could do without Maddy. Wow I just had major awarenesses from that...maybe I don't even need to meditate today

Religions are a way of perceiving reality? I'd laugh if that wasn't so pathetically sad. Can you give a single example of a "reality" that's been perceived? Some amazing factual, tangiable thing religions have discovered that we faithless can't perceive? Some medical drug that only works if you lick a statue of Koomi, God of Toaster Ovens on that most Holy of Days, Tuesday. An extra 10 miles to the gallon in your car's fuel consumption if you wear Muslim prayer beads and chant in Arabic. Religions are more about perceiving the UNREAL than the real. I said religions are a way of perceiving reality - their way of making sense of it - I did not say they perceived it in any way that could be objectively true. Big difference. I think religions and movements start out as way to make sense of the world and one's place in it, and often have a spark in the beginning (a new way of seeing something, more alive, a better or more loving way that's beneficial to many), but unfortunately they become stale after time and decompose to habitual ways of being, patterns, & laws. Unfortunately, Klytyna, I think that's what you're encountering -- especially on certain forums where people have no desire to seek truth, but instead their only motivation is to win an argument in an attempt to feel a surge of power. I go more for the spirituality that involves Mysticism (the core or essence), and there are elements of Mysticism in most religions, accepted or rejected in varying degrees. I've learned various things from orienting myself in this way, but someone you're labeling as "faithless" can just as easily perceive these things because nobody is excluded from a journey of growth or evolution in consciousness. It has nothing to do with 'gods' that are outside the Universe, and is more of an inward journey so that one sees oneself and the perceived outside world in a new way. One begins to see 'the big picture' -- it's more about personal evolution and connecting to society in a better, more loving way. Nobody cares how you conceptualize the Universe, whether this Universe is seen very personally as a particular person or saint, or whether it's seen as 'abstract light' BECAUSE THIS IS ONLY A CONCEPTUALIZATION, ONLY A SYMBOL to hold in one's mind as an anchor toward a new way of being -- the important part is to attempt to connect in a more expansive way with WHAT IS NOT YET SEEN OR KNOWN - what has not yet manifested in one's life. Mysticism with its focus on love is just a way to tune into what is unknown and make it known to yourself, personally. You BECOME IT -- it is not an abstract conceptualization, it is a revelation, a new way of being in the world. I share your disdain for religious people that think they have the one true way and fight with everyone else who does not share their conceptualizations, and cause harm to others in the process. But if you examine the mystical dimensions of all religions they speak of 'love' and changing oneself into a new person -- this is what lies underneath religion at its core, and not the forms people fight over.

Religions are just a way of perceiving reality. Atheism has it's own way of perceiving reality, and so I consider it a religion too. It's pretty insulting to think your religion is 'the way' while other people's perceptions of reality are delusional.

lol I never thought of it that way

That could certainly be a debate worth having, things like how much and to what extent, and so on, sure. I just wanted to play devil's advocate and say that if we're not careful, the pendulum will swing too far in the other direction. Gotta find the balance. I agree it should be evaluated carefully, but that pendulum has a long way to swing to equal what minorities have suffered, given the way we've treated blacks, gays, the disabled, and other minorities through the ages in this country and around the world. Though I love spirituality, I hate religion, and especially any religion that says other human beings are trash and should be denied rights (you know, like the cake-denying person does, and the official trying to deny gays a marriage license).

NO Increasingly some spiritual groups focus on the essence of religion and deem it to be more important than all the rules. Religions evolve.

So you're saying it's okay if the people you don't like suffer, as long as the ones you do like don't have to? Nice of you. I was making the point that the situation is unfortunate that it exists at all, because someone loses no matter what we do. You totally misinterpreted my point -- of course I don't ONLY care about the suffering of people I like. The point I was making is that there are DEGREES of suffering, and so we must favor the group that has suffered the most if we must choose.

why were you at the meeting if you weren't black? Conference rooms at festivals get used by various groups in succession, and I had just attended a women's songwriting session taught by a black woman. I'd been sitting there talking to a couple of black women songwriters as the meeting ended and didn't notice the next group had filtered in, which was a support group for black women only.

Is it a Yoga type of Hinduism? I love Yoga...

You make relating to someone in a loving way so very hard...

It may be that people who feel there's a purpose to life, a benevolent overseer, and an afterlife, handle stress better than those who don't and are favored by natural selection. One could imagine this proclivity evolving over time, just as many physical attributes (eyes, ears, etc.) did. There's some evidence that "faith" has healthful effects. I wish I could avail myself of those, but I'll have to find another way. I feel awe and wonder every day of my life, and understanding that this may be an evolutionary trait does nothing to diminish it. I have good reason to think that personal intellectual evolution is not the same as biological evolution. One occurs within a single thinking individual within one lifetime. The other occurs across countless organisms over countless generations. So you speculate the reason people believe in God is so they can feel better, feel secure. Well...could be..or could be some of them do. But just because some people believe in 'god' or 'intent' does not always mean they're doing it only to feel better as they bask in some sort of delusion. But feeling awe and wonder every day, what I call 'love'....that sounds good to me! I do believe that's what 'intent' is...despite the pain we have to deal with.

Caesar salad of course, silly.

That seems like an arbitrarily complex explanation for the result of replication error and competition. It also confuses personal evolution with natural evolution. I am feeling more and more that there is a purpose to life, possibly to evolve...and that it is some kind of 'intent'...though not a type of intent us mere mortals can quite grasp at this point. I maintain that belief for the most part despite the state of the world....and the state of this thread Also, I'm not sure why personal evolution and natural evolution should not be the same...but perhaps you have reasons?

What if the purpose is to Evolve through the necessary pain that I assume causes you to feel that 'intent' insinuates either malice or incompetence?

Exactly...they are unable to recognize their privileged status in society, and unable to empathize with those who have been oppressed. It's pretty creepy, in some of their mind-bubbles they even deny prejudice exists at all, or worse think it's a fine attribute.

Yes yes yes essential services... but when was it a basic human right to be able to force someone to cut your hair or bake you a cake? You can't really segment off what's essential vs what is not in many cases, so the law has to be applied equally. What's essential to one person might not be to another. For example, driving through the southwest often there's only one gas station in a town. What would you have the law do -- police each car driving through to make sure they could actually drive to another town and so could not claim a discrimination when not serviced? What you propose (this division) is just not practical, and also doesn't reflect the type of society most want to live in (fair, not prejudiced).

I was asked to leave a meeting for black women at a music festival, and while I felt awkward having to get up and leave in front of a large room of people, I took it as a learning experience - a chance to experience what it felt like to be excluded on the basis of race.

Exactly. We should not let them define the argument and show them it's really a stupid defense.

It's the whole "I don't experience it, therefore it cannot possibly be a problem" willfully ignorant trend. It gives me a headache sometimes, to be honest. There are so many ways in which people experience prejudice and discrimination. The fact that we cannot eliminate them all entirely, doesn't mean we give up trying to eliminate what we can. Some people just can't seem to grasp what others go through...not because it's hard, but because *they don't want to*.(ie, willful ignorance) They seem to live in a bubble, and nothing is real to them except their own experience. And yes, just because we can't eliminate all prejudice doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

There are studies that show far-right conservatives score low on the empathy scale.

The reason there are poor people is because people like you, whatever you are, feel fine about labeling some as unworthy of our help. It's a total lack of empathy on your part when you choose not to aknowlege there are illnesses, both physical and mental, and situations in life that become 'too much' for vulnerable citizens and make it damm near impossible to function.

Exactly. The lack of empathy of too many is appalling. It's why we have these laws now thank goddess.

and Gadget said: "To be fair, the whole "forced customers" thing is one of those lose/lose situations. Without a law like this, minorties and the like may suffer. With a law like this, many innocent business owners suffer." The fact that you have equated the suffering of "minorities and the like" with "many innocent business owners" demonstrates the crux of the problem -- there is no empathy or very little awareness on your parts that the amount of suffering by minorities is so much greater than what a business owner would experience. Being considered a 2nd class citizen and not worthy of the same rights as others is a pain that causes immense damage to those targeted. It's the constant, unrelenting message of 'you are bad for who you are, you are not worthy of the respect others are given'. Feeling excluded causes poor self-esteem, unfulfilled potential, and even the terror of living life in fear -- all because one is simply born a certain way (a person of color, gay, disabled). Really, you guys need to read some books, watch some movies -- whatever it takes to get a sense of how the marginalized people in a society experience life. I have a feeling that if some empathy really sunk in you would feel stupid for complaining about baking a freaking cake for someone.

Actually, it's a wise choice (from a business perspective) to discriminate against women since they get cheaper labor by doing so. Women still earn less, in varying degrees by state. Because of this far more elderly women are in poverty than men today, even when adjusting for women's longer lifespan.

Because businesses provide needed services to everyone in the community, some so necessary that they are a matter of life and death or can at the very least cause suffering to those denied access (the only hospital in town denying services to someone they hate, or a hospital denying partner visitation for a dying patient because the partner is 'gay' and so deemed as 'not family'). While it's perhaps not of much consequence if the 'unapproved of' person or object of discrimination has other choices, in many cases they do not, or at the very least the alternate choices are substandard (back of the bus). There's no reason why we can't deem these 'unapproved of' persons a protected class and make provisions for them so they can live freely like every other person in society. Sure, it would be better if we did not have to regulate stupidity, but the reality is that there's a lot of stupid people out there who lack empathy and think they have a right to label others as bad and make them suffer.