JeanneAnne

November 9, 2011

Ceka Cianci wrote:

Canoro Philipp wrote:

i agree, the idea of forming those organizations can be with good intentions, but they can get corrupted, sadly, thats a truth.

but luckily, not all organizations that their purpose is to benefit society are corrupted.

i agree there are some..i think the best ones are the ones that educate the user..

not the ones that want to be the weapon for them..

arm the user so they can protect themselves..

and i mean that in the sense of making them more powerful by being more aware of SL and it's good and bad things and ways to deal with them when they encounter them..

inform them of places that they may not run into griefers as much as some other places..

also how to avoid scans and and scams and any info like that that can help them out..

the way we get the grid dealing with griefers and all the rest of the bad that is just waiting for them.. is to help the people new to the grid get educated faster on how to deal with them and the many other problems they may face..

this way people won't feel the need for a crutch like these griefer groups trying to pass themselves off as justice for the grid..

no user should be cop,judge, jury and exicutioner to any other user..and no user should have to have that imposed on them either..

mind over matter hehehe *winks*

This is the best post I've read on these fora, Ceka. Kudos! to you for it. :smileywink:

You know what bothers me most about all this? What bothers me most is that all this creepy vigilantism, this cyberstalking of people, this using music stream to rip IP addresses, this collecting of RL data, this delusional paranoia, this activity that borders on if not actually violates criminal law ... seems to be tolerated and condoned - if not actively encouraged & supported - by the "Godz." What is up with that?!? Given all this, people can still support corporatism and dogpile on me for calling for SL to be run as a members owned & operated non-profit democracy? What is wrong with people, anyway?

Jeanne

November 9, 2011

Ceka Cianci wrote:

Jeanneanne be very careful of what you type because of the forums rules ..we can't really go into detail on these forums like we can in others..

Ok Ceka, thanks for the heads-up.

I'm now to the point where Scotland Yard & the CIA are behind it all! Which makes me think that there are paranoid schizophrenics loose in SL, wearing spandex!!! :smileyvery-happy:

Seriously, tho... some of this is very disturbing.

Jeanne

November 9, 2011

Ceka Cianci wrote:

oh i understand you were not meaning using something like that..

i just seen groups like those mentioned and had to pull the whole romance out of it to show they are just users like the rest of us..

i don't know what their program does nowdays..

i just know we are all users on the same level..no matter how head strong we get..and when we do get to a point where we think the rest of the grid is below us..we need to be put in check..

groups on power trips thinking they can push or manipulate any other users or scare the crap out of them..they need a good kick in the butt..

My goodness!! It just goes on & on... Apparently, not only were they collecting IP addresses of SL users, but also info on alts, RL medical information & info about family members!!! But were doing so in a way that *technically* didn't violate LL's ToS! Then they were storing this data on the bwiki that's only password protected and easily cracked. And... there were at least certain Lindens who supported them doing this!!!

LoL This is really rich. Someone should write a novel about all this, and then make the movie. Who knew there are people so caught up in SL that they would go to all this trouble? Mind blowing!!!

Know what I think, Cera? The JLU needs more than a good kick in the butt. They need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law!

Jeanne

November 9, 2011

Ceka Cianci wrote:

ok the links are in your forum IM's..that should be enough to get you started hehehe

Wow!! Ceka... Thanks!

Thanks not just for turning me on2 bronxelf's Summary Thread of the JLU affair, but for alerting me to the existence of SLUniverse forum.

I've only read bronxelf's Summary but it sounds like the JLU are DC comics superhero roleplayers, more than anything. If they actually are running software that detects peoples' IP addresses in SL, that's just wrong. It wasn't clear to me that they're actually doing that, tho. If they are, then LL ought to put a stop to it.

Maybe the JLU's intentions are good (and maybe not!) but I don't think we need a bunchuv self-appointed vigilantes running around SL collecting info on people they consider to be griefers (or "goons" as Boellstorff calls them). When I advocated a Union for SL club workers I had no intention of it operating as such. Obviously, these issues are complex and there is an entire history to SL that I don't understand (and reading Boellstorff's book only gives me the vaguest notion of). Guess I'd better do more reading & give the whole thing more thought!

Thanks again!

Jeanne

November 9, 2011

Canoro Philipp wrote:

lets go back to basics, forget about "the union" and clubs and lets look at the source of the problem and why this solution was thought.

we need a form of organization to protect the weak from abuse.

many people get abused in second life, specially from ones who have more resources than them, im not talking about physical abuse, thats impossible here, but there are other types of abuse, psychological and emotional, that can add a great level of stress on the victim, and potentially damaging the user severly. i have seen that happen here in the forums.

to do something about it, groups like Justice League Unlimited has been created, and many others, because in this world with practically no law, there is practically no defense for the weak, the solution of the Union is one of many, because theres a clear need for that, and we dont have a very effective one currently.

if anyone can come out with an idea to solve this, if it can solve a small part of it, its a good thing to add to the world.

Good posts Canoro!

Tell me more about this "Justice Leage Unlimited," please. I've never heard of it but sounds like I might be interested.

Thanks!

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

>>the problem is gonna come when the dj ends up liking the club they are at and then the union telling them they can't work there anymore because the club is not union or the club decided to stop letting the union control who works there..<<

That is a good point Ceka. I guess that in a case like this the DJ would just have to decide whether to quit the Union & stay with the club, or to show solidarity with Union brothers & sisters. It would be the individual's decision to make.

>>i'm not a dj ..i've got 10's of thousands of songs just like most users on the net.. all i have to do is turn on my winamp and bam..time to get this party started..<<

I'm the same way. There's been many times when I've just turned off the inworld sound & either listened to my favorite DJs' 24/7 internet stream over Winamp, or just listened to my own playlists. Not only is the sound quality better this way but usually so is the music selection. I wonder if most DJs even realize how often people do this. I know some do. I'll often hang out in a club just for the conversation and to see how other ppl's avvies are outfitted, and not even be listening to the music being played. I usually will give the DJ a chance but if the sound quality is crappy &/or their selections are boring, I go to Winamp.

>>those dj's pulling all those K's a show are hitting up their groups also telling them where they will be at next..a good club will have a following of it's own..a good dj can enhance that but it won't over take it..<<

I tend to follow DJs not clubs. There are clubs I'll hang out in if my favorite DJs arent working that evening but even then, like I said above, I'll probably have a favorite DJ's stream or my own music playing. Some of my favorite DJs play private parties more than they do clubs, anyway. By the looks of the tip jars, private parties are far more lucrative than clubs. Being the guest of a popular DJ, I've seen gorgeous private sims this way that I probably never would have been invited to otherwise. Since I'm friendly and have an attractive avatar & cool dance animations, I'm always made to feel welcome & have even become friends with some of the people at these parties. This is what I've been spending most of my weekends doing lately.

>>a union wouldn't phase that place because they couldn't beat what the club has..a loyal following and loyal staff..<<

I'm sure you're right about this! A Union wouldn't be necessary if all clubs were like this.

>>the only way to get good clubs for patrons and dj's and everyone concerned..is to have owners willing to spend money on them because they are into a club..not opening one thinking they are gonna be an easy way to make a buck because they go to clubs in the real world and think..how hard can it really be in a virtual world lol<<

Too true!

Good post Ceka. :smileyhappy:

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

Summer Seale wrote:

...

After all, LL has no problems emailing me when they want to pimp their latest marketplace attractions and whatnot. There are far less sim owners than what is required by mass emailing everyone registered with LL, so I still am not sure what the problem is with emailing sim owners when they have to know some basic things.

...

What do you expect? Spamming you to pimp stuff might bring in revenue to the corporate fatcats. Inconveniencing sim owners cost them nothing. When you consider the priorities of a for profit corporation, LL's inconsideration makes perfect sense.

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

Summer Seale wrote:

...

After all, LL has no problems emailing me when they want to pimp their latest marketplace attractions and whatnot. There are far less sim owners than what is required by mass emailing everyone registered with LL, so I still am not sure what the problem is with emailing sim owners when they have to know some basic things.

...

What do you expect? Spamming you to pimp stuff might bring in revenue to the corporate fatcats. Inconveniencing sim owners cost them nothing. When you consider the priorities of a for profit corporation, LL's inconsideration makes perfect sense.

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

Void Singer wrote:

protestors are never potential patrons, and the actions suggested (and in fact making the suggestion) are violations of ToS. that's not just a parcel ban, that's an SL ban those folks are looking at.

you might be ok with that, but not informing others of the reprecussions is about the same as setting up a swim suit shop next to a piranha filled lake

LoL A corporation attempting to bust a Union... who'da thunk it?

I can imagine the publicity: "Corporation bans virtual Union from virtual world" !!! That would be sure to draw the attention of the OWS crowd to LL. Oh the delicious irony... :smileyvery-happy:

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

Void Singer wrote:

protestors are never potential patrons, and the actions suggested (and in fact making the suggestion) are violations of ToS. that's not just a parcel ban, that's an SL ban those folks are looking at.

you might be ok with that, but not informing others of the reprecussions is about the same as setting up a swim suit shop next to a piranha filled lake

LoL A corporation attempting to bust a Union... who'da thunk it?

I can imagine the publicity: "Corporation bans virtual Union from virtual world" !!! That would be sure to draw the attention of the OWS crowd to LL. Oh the delicious irony... :smileyvery-happy:

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

Void Singer wrote:

JeanneAnne wrote:

Of course no one would be forced to join a SL club worker's Union. Participation would be totally voluntary.

However, the union could organize demonstrations outside clubs that hired non-Union DJs or host(esse)s.

The Union could organize patron boycotts against such establishments, or attempt to. Personally, I don't think I would dance in clubs that hired non-Union workers, or tip non-Union club workers.

Why don't you just join the RL Union, Lynda? It exists to protect you against exploitation by rapacious management. It's in your own best interest to be a Union member.

Jeanne

the above underlined action is very likely to see all participants banned from the parcel, or estate, and has a high likelihood of seeing them banned form SL as well for harrassment and abuse of region resources.

I

really

wouldn't recommend it.

If club owners ban potential patrons from their clubs, rather than concede to fair demands that they treat their workers well, I guess I'm ok with that. Word will get out, traffic will decrease, and those clubs will die. So be it...

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

Void Singer wrote:

JeanneAnne wrote:

Of course no one would be forced to join a SL club worker's Union. Participation would be totally voluntary.

However, the union could organize demonstrations outside clubs that hired non-Union DJs or host(esse)s.

The Union could organize patron boycotts against such establishments, or attempt to. Personally, I don't think I would dance in clubs that hired non-Union workers, or tip non-Union club workers.

Why don't you just join the RL Union, Lynda? It exists to protect you against exploitation by rapacious management. It's in your own best interest to be a Union member.

Jeanne

the above underlined action is very likely to see all participants banned from the parcel, or estate, and has a high likelihood of seeing them banned form SL as well for harrassment and abuse of region resources.

I

really

wouldn't recommend it.

If club owners ban potential patrons from their clubs, rather than concede to fair demands that they treat their workers well, I guess I'm ok with that. Word will get out, traffic will decrease, and those clubs will die. So be it...

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

Qie Niangao wrote:

...

... There are only a handful of DJs in SL who add much value over, say, turntable.fm or spotify. And that's the DJ; most clubs demand even less expertise of other staff members.

...

Since I've been in SL I've mostly hung out with the DJ community. I've been to a lot of clubs and have listened to quite a bit of music. It's true that much of the music is insipid and the DJs just set a limited playlist on random and don't know much about the music they play. However, there are some inspired DJs on SL, who spend hours before a gig organizing a playlist with great care as to not just the selections but the order they're played in, so as to build a mood or move a crowd from a laidback beginning to a climax of energy & excitement and back again. There are SL DJs for whom DJing is a true art form. They have tens of thousands of tunes to select from, and know the history and members of the bands, and educate their listeners during the set.

These elite DJs make thousands of $L per gig in tips, and only play in the nicest clubs where they are good friends with the owners and are treated very well. DJs of this quality don't need a Union to protect their interests. They are in demand and can always go to a better club if they feel they aren't being treated well. But for the more run-of-the-mill DJ or those just getting started & don't yet have a following, I think that the solidarity and protection from exploitation by club owners that a Union could provide, would be a good service. It could also be an opportunity for these DJs to learn from one another and to develop their skills. I support the idea of a SL club worker's Union.

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

Qie Niangao wrote:

...

... There are only a handful of DJs in SL who add much value over, say, turntable.fm or spotify. And that's the DJ; most clubs demand even less expertise of other staff members.

...

Since I've been in SL I've mostly hung out with the DJ community. I've been to a lot of clubs and have listened to quite a bit of music. It's true that much of the music is insipid and the DJs just set a limited playlist on random and don't know much about the music they play. However, there are some inspired DJs on SL, who spend hours before a gig organizing a playlist with great care as to not just the selections but the order they're played in, so as to build a mood or move a crowd from a laidback beginning to a climax of energy & excitement and back again. There are SL DJs for whom DJing is a true art form. They have tens of thousands of tunes to select from, and know the history and members of the bands, and educate their listeners during the set.

These elite DJs make thousands of $L per gig in tips, and only play in the nicest clubs where they are good friends with the owners and are treated very well. DJs of this quality don't need a Union to protect their interests. They are in demand and can always go to a better club if they feel they aren't being treated well. But for the more run-of-the-mill DJ or those just getting started & don't yet have a following, I think that the solidarity and protection from exploitation by club owners that a Union could provide, would be a good service. It could also be an opportunity for these DJs to learn from one another and to develop their skills. I support the idea of a SL club worker's Union.

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

Lynda Baran wrote:

So, if you work in a club are you going to be forced to join the union, even if you don't want to? That's the way it is in some areas of the US, no union membership, not work. Thankfully there are right to work states where you can't be forced to join a union in order to get a job. SL is a US corporation, should they then set up Right to Work sims where the unions hold no sway?

For 3 consecutive years a union has tried to unionize the place where I work. They've tried every sort of intimidation you can imagine to force people to vote to unionize. Finally they succeeded this past year. It's pretty moronic and virtually useless since there is no collective bargaining allow for public service employees under our state constitution. So what was the use, other than union fat-cats getting a free ride on the dues paid by the union rank and file.

Thankfully my state is a Right to work State, so they couldn't force me to join and waste part of my salary supporting a corrupt union hierarchy. Woud a union in SL be any better. I doubt it very much.

They continued trying to intimidate me, forcing me to join their union against my will. But unfortunately for them, my state is also a Shall Issue Concealed Carry permit state. It's awfully hard to intimidate an armed citizen. :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

Of course no one would be forced to join a SL club worker's Union. Participation would be totally voluntary. However, the union could organize demonstrations outside clubs that hired non-Union DJs or host(esse)s. The Union could organize patron boycotts against such establishments, or attempt to. Personally, I don't think I would dance in clubs that hired non-Union workers, or tip non-Union club workers.

Why don't you just join the RL Union, Lynda? It exists to protect you against exploitation by rapacious management. It's in your own best interest to be a Union member.

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

Lynda Baran wrote:

So, if you work in a club are you going to be forced to join the union, even if you don't want to? That's the way it is in some areas of the US, no union membership, not work. Thankfully there are right to work states where you can't be forced to join a union in order to get a job. SL is a US corporation, should they then set up Right to Work sims where the unions hold no sway?

For 3 consecutive years a union has tried to unionize the place where I work. They've tried every sort of intimidation you can imagine to force people to vote to unionize. Finally they succeeded this past year. It's pretty moronic and virtually useless since there is no collective bargaining allow for public service employees under our state constitution. So what was the use, other than union fat-cats getting a free ride on the dues paid by the union rank and file.

Thankfully my state is a Right to work State, so they couldn't force me to join and waste part of my salary supporting a corrupt union hierarchy. Woud a union in SL be any better. I doubt it very much.

They continued trying to intimidate me, forcing me to join their union against my will. But unfortunately for them, my state is also a Shall Issue Concealed Carry permit state. It's awfully hard to intimidate an armed citizen. :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

Of course no one would be forced to join a SL club worker's Union. Participation would be totally voluntary. However, the union could organize demonstrations outside clubs that hired non-Union DJs or host(esse)s. The Union could organize patron boycotts against such establishments, or attempt to. Personally, I don't think I would dance in clubs that hired non-Union workers, or tip non-Union club workers.

Why don't you just join the RL Union, Lynda? It exists to protect you against exploitation by rapacious management. It's in your own best interest to be a Union member.

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

I saw that thread. I just figured that she saw his profile from his own login. Or he showed it to her in order to brag about all the women who had befriended him.

Jeanne

November 8, 2011

I saw that thread. I just figured that she saw his profile from his own login. Or he showed it to her in order to brag about all the women who had befriended him.

Jeanne

November 7, 2011

Sammantha Koppel wrote:

JeanneAnne wrote:

Sammantha Koppel wrote:

AnneMarie Draconia wrote:So, my questions are :

- Is there already some Union in Second Life ?

I hope not

- If not, would it be interesting to have an Union ?

No

- What should be the powers of that Union ?

n/a

- Should LL offer any kind of protection towards this Union and its members ?

OMG NO!

If people are working and not getting tipped, they can quit. That makes it not slavery. Or they can keep doing their thing because they enjoy it. What good would a union do? Force patrons to tip? There's enough begging for tips already. Maybe you want to force club owners to pay an hourly wage? Most clubs in SL run in the red anyway. The fact that they offer DJs, hosts and dancers an opportunity to make some $L should be enough. Tips should be earned, not demanded.

I agree that patrons can't be forced to tip. On the other hand, club owners paying DJs an hourly wage might be a good idea. If most SL clubs run in the red that's because the exorbitant tier LL charges is way too high. It certainly isn't the DJ's & host's fault. I think that club workers should organize and demand fair treatment and an hourly wage from owners. Tips can't be demanded but fair treatment and fair remuneration for time and talent can be. Otherwise... STRIKE!!

Jeanne

So the club owners should dig into their RL pockets to pay staff if the club isn't turning a profit? Just what is fair treatment? Do you know how many dancers hop on a pole and then go AFK? What is fair treatment for them? How about "workers" who don't show up for their shift? How about the ones who send out multi-line spammy gestures constantly? When DJs, dancers and hosts accept a position in a club, they know about the compensation package, if there is one. They don't have to strike if they don't like it. They can leave. You must have this idea that anyone owning a club is just rolling in cash. Oh, maybe they can take out RL loans to pay their virtual staff.

If club workers can't show up for a shift they need to inform owners as far in advance as possible, so a substitute can be found. If they do so, or if an emergency arises suddenly, then club owners shouldn't retaliate against them in any way. If they don't do this then it is fair for owners to fire them when it happens repeatedly. A Union could protect workers against arbitrary decisions made by owners. If club owners aren't "rolling in cash" it's because LL is charging them way too much for tier. Direct your complaints against the real culprit: LL, and not against DJs & hosts or hostesses just just trying to get by.

Jeanne

November 7, 2011

Senobia Xenga wrote:

There used to be some, I know it! I was once friends with them before we got scattered in the wind over time.

If you are some or know some, I'd be glad to know ya! Find me inworld and let's talk.

I'm from rural upstate NY altho I currently live in suburban Long Island. I prefer country to city, in both RL & SL. In SL I like to hang out on virtual beaches or in forested areas. One peeve I have is that typically, very little effort is made to portray realistic natural ecosystems in SL. I wish that some RL biologists or botanists or ecologists would build the rural or wilderness sims. I can't stand country music, tho, if that's what you mean.

Jeanne

November 7, 2011

Sammantha Koppel wrote:

AnneMarie Draconia wrote:So, my questions are :

- Is there already some Union in Second Life ?

I hope not

- If not, would it be interesting to have an Union ?

No

- What should be the powers of that Union ?

n/a

- Should LL offer any kind of protection towards this Union and its members ?

OMG NO!

If people are working and not getting tipped, they can quit. That makes it not slavery. Or they can keep doing their thing because they enjoy it. What good would a union do? Force patrons to tip? There's enough begging for tips already. Maybe you want to force club owners to pay an hourly wage? Most clubs in SL run in the red anyway. The fact that they offer DJs, hosts and dancers an opportunity to make some $L should be enough. Tips should be earned, not demanded.

I agree that patrons can't be forced to tip. On the other hand, club owners paying DJs an hourly wage might be a good idea. If most SL clubs run in the red that's because the exorbitant tier LL charges is way too high. It certainly isn't the DJ's & host's fault. I think that club workers should organize and demand fair treatment and an hourly wage from owners. Tips can't be demanded but fair treatment and fair remuneration for time and talent can be. Otherwise... STRIKE!!

Jeanne

November 7, 2011

AnneMarie Draconia wrote:

I don't know if this matter has already been discussed in Second Life. But is there any union in Second Life that is protecting staff members of clubs. To be honest, I am in the scene, and have witnessed several times that people are busting their butts off during a shift, either dj's or hosts, and not got tipped at all, while this is their only "income". No wonder that there is a big run away/run over within the club scene, lack of committed people and so on. Also, if some dare to oppose, disagree with how things are going in the club, they have the risk to be sacked, moved aside, or even being banned from the club, let alone being treatened to be reported to LL with a specific request to banned from Second Life if some dare to work at different clubs at the same time.

This to me seems like a modern, virtual form of slavery, which has no reason of existance in the nowadays society. So, my questions are :

- Is there already some Union in Second Life ?

- If not, would it be interesting to have an Union ?

- What should be the powers of that Union ?

- Should LL offer any kind of protection towards this Union and its members ?

I think that a Union for club workers would be a very good idea. However, Union or not, you can't force patrons to tip. Some have no $L to tip with. The Union would only serve to protect worker's interests from abuse or conflicting interests of club owners. I would not expect LL to support the idea of Unions. LL is a corporation and corporations hate anything that serves the interests of labor against management's interests.

Jeanne

November 7, 2011

Thank you very much for your honest and well written response Rolig.

I admire your sincerity, creativity and ability to express yourself clearly.

Thanks again for the exchange of ideas.

Peace be unto you.

Jeanne

November 7, 2011

Rolig Loon wrote:

JeanneAnne wrote:

Okay. We in the West had better pay royalties to the Chinese for gunpowder and for the wheelbarrow, then. That would be only fair, right?

I agree that there ought to be a sign up fee for SL, and a regular users fee charged after that. Everyone ought to pay the same fee and have the same priviledges. In exchange, private "property" and the $L need to be eliminated, and content creators paid by LL for their labor, rather than have to pay to upload it & store its code on LL servers. Then there would be no "freeloading," nor would there be any class distinctions. Prostitution and slavery would be mere role playing, instead of something imposed by economic necessity. I heartily agree that this would be a great improvement to the SL experience.

Jeanne

Like it or not, and you clearly do not like it, SL is rooted in a capitalist model. Private property and a medium of exchange are the basis for the businesses that are a central focus for many of us. They also serve as an extrinsic reward system by which residents recognize the work of creators. It is certainly possible to imagine a different system for a virtual world, perhaps one based on the Utopian or utilitarian model you seem to prefer, but it would not be the Second Life that most of us are here for.

Linden Lab, likewise, is not here for altruistic reasons. They are a corporation in a capitalist society, here to make a profit for themselves and their investors. Being privately held, they are not obliged to tell you or me how big their profits are, or what any of them are paid. Their earnings may be obscene by whatever standard you may choose, and you are free to be offended by their business model. You may also complain about the way SL is constructed and about the asinine decisions they make. We all do that. If those things are too offensive for you, you are also free to find a better virtual world. Quite a few people do that too. If you decide to stay, however, don't expect LL to abandon capitalism, and don't be surprised when you don't find many of us climbing on your bandwagon.

Thank you for a very good response Rolig. You are right and I agree with you.

What surprises me, tho, is this: >>Private property and a medium of exchange are the basis for the businesses that are a central focus for many of us. They also serve as an extrinsic reward system by which residents recognize the work of creators.<< Surely you realize that no one besides Linden Labs actually "owns" anything within SL, and that there is no "property" in any sort of tangible sense. All that you do when you "build" or texture or script is to encode data onto a server that you don't own and have no control over. And for all your time and effort and creativity, you then have to pay the corporation that owns the servers an upload and data storage fee (tier). Then you can sell copies of this code to others and if you are well practiced at what you do perhaps make enough money to break even or even earn a little over and above what the corporate parasites skim.

I guess it does surprise me that I >>...don't find many of us climbing on your bandwagon...<< altho perhaps it shouldn't. These fora seem to be occupied primarily by content creators who have been in SL long enuf to be thoroly acculturated to LL's exploitative business model. If there were more newbies & free account members present, perhaps my bandwagon would carry more passengers. And then, there's always the human tendency to cohere unto the oppressor. Many Jews even advocated cooperation with the Nazis.

Of course I don't expect LL to abandon capitalism. They will have to be forced to do so, by the actions of a critical mass of SL residents. Complaints won't change anything. LL doesn't even listen. Free account holders can do little. The only thing that will get their attention and force change is for their profit margins to decline severely. This can be accomplished by a tier strike. If a critical mass of "land owners" simply refused to pay tier until their demands were met, LL would have to listen and to concede to those demands, or else go out of business. What is it you want? Better support? Lower tier fees? Memeber say in business decisions? A democracy rather than corporate dictatorship? You can have it! but you have to take action. The OWS movement is changing the course of history. Similar activism can change SL for the better. But it's those of you who fatten the parasites with your time, talent and money who will have to do it. If you like being host to parasites, like being spammed, like class distinctions because as a content creator you somehow consider yourself to belong to an "upper" class (which you do not unless you are a LL executive or shareholder), or are simply afraid to climb on the "bandwagon," then maybe you ought to just get out of the way of those of us who would like to see SL be a better place.

Jeanne

November 6, 2011

Perrie Juran wrote:

JeanneAnne wrote:

Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Oh, cool. Thanks.

Is that like a communist versus capitalism type scenario? Like how there used to be a huge communist socialist republic and a huge capitalistic democracy and the socialist one crumbled but the capitalist one flourished?

...

I think your ideology sounds pretty in thought, but is doomed to failure in practice.

Don't you have that backwards Charolotte? Isn't it the Capitalist West who owes the farm to

Communist China

these days?

How do you know that my ideology is doomed to failure in practice? Why don't we try it and find out?

Jeanne

And it has been proposed that if we were to actually collect royalties for what they have stolen they would be in the red (snark, snark, snark) to us! And this idea has been gaining ground and support in the U.S. and in other nations.

...

Quite frankly, if I have ever seen a good argument for Linden Lab charging a sign up fee, it is your freeloading attitude.

Okay. We in the West had better pay royalties to the Chinese for gunpowder and for the wheelbarrow, then. That would be only fair, right?

I agree that there ought to be a sign up fee for SL, and a regular users fee charged after that. Everyone ought to pay the same fee and have the same priviledges. In exchange, private "property" and the $L need to be eliminated, and content creators paid by LL for their labor, rather than have to pay to upload it & store its code on LL servers. Then there would be no "freeloading," nor would there be any class distinctions. Prostitution and slavery would be mere role playing, instead of something imposed by economic necessity. I heartily agree that this would be a great improvement to the SL experience.

Jeanne

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