Drayke Newall
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Posts posted by Drayke Newall
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41 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:
Oh and "just for reference by the way" SL has over 60 MILLION registered accounts, so boasting of the number of IMVSPEW app downloads, again doesn't really mean a lot. Stop drinking the damn cultist koolaid.
Avakin Life a mobile virtual world has over 200 MILLION registered accounts and over 1 MILLION daily users (compared to Second Lifes 200,000). So what's your point again?
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40 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:
That brings to mind a different platform: Windows 11 devices such as the Surface Tablets. I've never been in a position to try a desktop SL viewer on them, but now you've got me wondering whether an Android app running on Windows 11 (also "a work in progress") might be an option.
Surface Tablets are a little different than most tablets in that they are basically a mini computer and can run any program that can run on a desktop. I can run the full SL Browser or Firestorm on mine just fine. Sure not on ultra graphics but still completely playable without needing a downgraded mobile app such as the one planned for IOS and Android.
Can either use the a keyboard and mouse or the standard surface keyboard and touch pad that can be bought as an added extra.
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6 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:
Sansar's omissions were the real killer, to this day it has almost no social tooling at all. It kind of gave the message that they didn't want people meaningfully and personally interacting beyond the bare minimum.
Sure there was local voice and a chat panel .. but no one at LL wanted to touch the question, what if someone had two friends .. and they weren't in same place gormlessly staring at their avatars and spamming gestures.
It was like they were trying to build the ultimate party .. having only ever seen pictures of a party, in the end it said far more about what LL thought a virtual world was about than anything else.
Agree, and it is those same omissions that I think LL need to worry about with Mobile. Whilst yes, Sansar had different omissions that were 'eventually to be planned in future updates, like sitting, avatar customisation, or as you say better socials, if the SL mobile app is released the same way, with omission's that are expected and the excuse 'they will come later in future updates' then it will fail the same way as Sansar.
Have we even heard from LL whether interactivity is in the Mobile app from release? In the video seen there was no instance of being able to sit, touch, use, buy, etc only move and explore.
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21 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:
My strong believe is, that Sansar mainly was presented too early because the money was too tight for the Lab to continue. Sansar was a new product.
It wasn't because it was a new product. The potential was there for it to succeed. What caused it to fail was that they released it in stages of content. So they released a few features first, then the next etc. This despite everyone telling them to release a final product. Very similar to how you suggested mobile viewer.
There are certain expectations a person is going to have in downloading something. If for example a program is known for avatar customisation, chat, exploration as a main focus (such as second life) then those are going to be expected from the get go. The fact that Second Life has over 20 years worth of being around would even more so drive that.
Just as Sansar being advertised as a place where you can build and interact with the environment. People expected the interaction part, however, didn't get it from the start (it was more a museum of signs saying dont touch) so no one took a second look at it.
That all said, like I mentioned it is going to depend on what LL expected demographics are. If this thread is any example of what the existing user demographic uptake would be then based on responses here, it does not look good.
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17 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:
Thanks. I had misunderstood your point, and didn't realise you meant that you foresee a future with two viewers, mobile and desktop, but both based on Unity, and the this will leave no room for third-party viewers on either mobiles or desktops.
If that's the case, though, LL are going to have to set against the cost of maintaining two viewers the fact that the ability to choose between, and to contribute to, a variety of third-party-viewers is demonstrably highly valued by most of LL's existing customer base and that, as a matter of policy, LL is very unwilling to break existing content, which in this case would be anything scripted for RLV.
I really find it difficult to envisage a situation in which LL would consider it a sound business decision to tell a plurality of existing users they can no longer use their preferred viewer and also to tell a considerable number of customers and content creators that their RLV content will no longer work.
I don't say it's impossible but I can't imagine it's a decision they'd take at all lightly.
Unity offers a world of other possibilities. Whilst I dont particularly like the unity engine, there could be the potential to offer other things other than TPV's. For example, there is nothing stopping Linden Lab in allowing people or those TPV's in creating plugins or mods to the viewer rather than having a separate viewer not controlled by Linden Lab.
There is the possibility of still allowing for RLV, UI changes, different rendering, etc, all done in the viewer via an app/mod download section. Other companies run their games and systems using this and it has worked for over 20 years.
Second Life is possibly the only software system/engine that is made by a software company that allows for multiple different versions through open source whilst keeping their own default software to download separately. Whilst yes it allows for a lot of choice, it is fundamentally flawed in that it hampers Linden Labs viewer creation, it imposes issues as far as retention (telling new users to download different viewers), impacts on new features where LL released and another TPV changes it or doesnt even implement it.
A plugin system that could be implemented through a newer unity engine viewer would fix all of these issues as new users and existing users get the same viewer however options to edit that viewer that doesn't involve confusing people as to which viewer is best.
As for TPV's and whether they will still be allowed, who knows, that's beyond anyone's guess atm. That said, just have a look at Berry Bunny's Crystal Frost viewer. That viewer, whilst still very alpha, is completely Unity based and to be honest, just based on graphics and being able to have actual waves and boat wake etc on linden water and prims vs the flat water we have now is a HUGE improvement for retention of people that want to RP boating.
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27 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:
I don't think the first version needs to have a complete transition of all functions within SL.
Basic things would do for a start:- teleport
- chat and IM
- Walk around
- see the surroundings and the others present
- take snapshots
- send items from your inventory to others (remote customer service for instance)The rest could all be for later versions IMHO.
Maybe it would be a smart idea to do the mobile viewer in mouselook only to start with.
Being able to see yourself and play the dress up game could be for later versions too.Whilst the could start with those things they are only things that will interest current users. If that is the only demographic LL are looking at then, fine. I believe however that (and would assume LL would also) would be a waste of development cost considering the uptake of mobile for existing users will be small vs any expense they have put into developing it.
If they are looking at using mobile as a method to grow their userbase and most of all to show that SL is still a major player in the metaverse, as they should be looking this mobile viewer as, then they have to have systems from the start that will entice the mobile userbase to try it out. Basic functionality in this instance has to have at a bare minimum all of what you have said INCLUDING avatar customisation and basic placement of items, i.e. rez, move and rotate. It does not need creation to be provided.
Why would anyone move from Avakin Life which is available on both Android, Windows and Apple, who offer building, editing, avatar customisation, socialising as well visiting clubs, etc, and support of RL businesses such as Nike and the like, if all Second Life's app offers is a glorified msn messenger and walking simulator. People seem to think Avakin Life is small compared to SL however it is the only virtual world comparable to SL with many more players.
All we have to do is look at how SANSAR performed to realise that Linden Lab releasing an unfinished non interactive viewer for mobile will make it take the same path as SANSAR, dead on arival as many of us hinted at to Linden Lab well before release. SANSAR failed due to may aspects but those aspects included lack of avatar customisation, lack of basic editing and lack of interactivity (ie not being able to sit).
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17 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:
I don't think that comparison works, though, because we're not talking about making different versions of the same content -- the game -- to download onto either a PC or a console, but different viewers to accessing the same content, which remains on LL's servers, depending on whether you're using desktop/laptop or a mobile device.
A better comparison, to my mind, would be with either newspaper and magazine publishers offering their own app for reading on your mobile device the same content you'd read on a desktop with a regular web browser, or with the makers of web browsers making different versions of their apps for use on pcs and mobiles. I'm aware neither of those is completely analogous, but I think they're better than the comparison with games.
No it is the perfect analogy. You cannot compare the mobile version of Second Life to the Desktop version as one runs on unity/vulcan (more than likely) and the other on OpenGL and some other engine LL made. If LL per their LabGab want to eventually have a fully functional viewer on the mobile app, then it would also be just like I compared, console vs pc as the ui would be different, how you access things, how things are rendered, etc and require different coding.
17 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:You talk about "the more profitable viewer," but what does that mean? LL make their money not from viewers but from land, subscriptions, and fees on marketplace sales, L$ sales and purchases and cash-outs. They're interested in whatever keeps people engaged enough in SL to keep on coming back to buy or rent land, take out premium subscriptions and buy stuff in-world and in the marketplace.
You are missing my point. I am not talking about how they make their money but how they spend it. If their expenses outweigh their income then they are not profitable. If they are having to spend money on two development teams one for mobile unity/vulcan version to create a full version on mobile and another for openGL desktop version then they would be wasting their money as Unity can provide for both. No company would do this especially when one version is far past its use-by date and the other offers FAR more.
Therefore if the unity version on mobile offers a better experience potential to both platforms, ease of use, ease of upgrade, scalability, better graphics, etc, then that viewer is the most profitable as it offers the cheapest development cost and a higher retention due to improved graphics, ese of use, better UI, etc.
You cannot expect LL to split staff between two different versions that run on ENTIRELY different engines. The two will still exist (mobile and desktop), however the unity version from mobile will start to replace the desktop version with BOTH operating the same way, same engine, ui, etc.
17 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:And, they already make different viewers for Windows and Apple since like forever. So nothing really new to be seen.
Only a possible opportunity to give Second Life a second life. This time on the smartphone and tablets.No, it is different, as the viewer for both Windows and Apple are made with openGL and a engine made by Linden Lab (as far as I am aware). This means that whilst yes it involves tinkering, they basically run on the same API and the same engine.
The mobile version is different in that it runs on Unity an entirely different engine to what Second Life runs on and also supports Vulcan which LL need to upgrade to.
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9 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:
I really think this is an over-dramatization, since I do not see LL abandoning desktop PC SLers any time soon, even in the event of a massive mobile viewer adoption.
Unfortunately like all things it will come down to money spent vs profit.
Providing support, development, etc on two different viewers will take a lot of development time and money especially if they intend to make the mobile viewer have all the features of the desktop which the Lindens at LabGab implied. Also given that one runs on unity/vulkan whereas the other runs on openGL which was last updated to its stable version in 2017 would also impact on the future.
In the end it will more than likely mean that the whichever viewer garners the most users and is easiest to update will become the default which is what we see in even large gaming companies with far bigger profits. It is very rare now for a gaming company for example to make a separate PC version when console is the dominant userbase. Instead the PC version becomes a port of the console version.
If the mobile unity version becomes the more profitable viewer, offers far more scalability and allows for more newer features, it is almost guaranteed that that viewer will be merged to the desktop version in some manner bringing over, as Coffee stated, things that will affect every aspect of the second life current desktop experience.
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Unless as part of this new unity based mobile viewer they have also changed the way you customise your avatar to a more simple and mobile version that isn't as convoluted as what we have with the desktop version (what some of us users have been wanting for ages) or added a way to easily place and move items in world, then this viewer will not bring in many new people nor really be taken up and have continual use by current SL users.
Whilst I would love to have a mobile viewer, if it doesn't have functionality of the most desired uses people use SL and virtual worlds for, Barbie dress up/Barbie dream house and explore in a user friendly UI manner then it will be DOA with $$ wasted on development just like LL did with SANSAR. LL need to listen to not only their userbase but also look at their competitors on mobile. From the look of the demo they have explore working but seems they refuse to believe that a mobile viewer needs avatar customisation and basic world editing.
@Mojo Linden I suggest you take a look at Avakin Life. If you want the SL mobile viewer to be used by not only SL users but also a way to tap into the huge userbase mobile has to offer then this viewer has to offer more - far more. Even if it takes another years development, dont be like your predecessors, get it right from the start and dont play catch-up. For reference, your competitor on mobile Avakin life has 200million accounts and 1million daily users, far more than even Second Life's desktop version of 70million and 200,000 respectively. To pull users away from that you are going to have to have a much more functional viewer to compete.
Also, if you are going to have this available on google and ios you are going to have to think further than just the viewer. If people can sign up and login directly from the mobile viewer how will those users go with new user island when all the tutorials etc are only for the desktop viewer controls?
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7 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:
https://modemworld.me/2021/02/26/lab-gab-feb-26-summary-aws-update-and-a-farewell-to-oz/
WILL THE MIGRATION MEAN LOWER PRICES FOR USERS?
[5:46-9:02]
Sort answer for the foreseeable future: no.
There has been an idea circulating among users that running SL on AWS is “dramatically cheaper” for Linden Lab; but this is actually not accurate.
The problem with quoting OZ is that he doesn't quite tell the whole story - yet people believe him not matter what. No where did Ebbe or Oz state that simply moving to AWS will reduce their cost. No where do users also say that moving to AWS 'as is' should be 'dramatically cheaper'. He uses half truths as a response to those users saying it should be 'dramatically cheaper'.
Go look back at the very first announcement that Ebbe and Oz did for the AWS move. Here they quite clearly and comprehensively had a laid out the plan that they intended to use to make AWS cheaper, SL more profitable (to allow dramatic lowering of land fees) and to make SL more marketable. It was the following:
- Move SL to AWS so as to save on upgrade costs, rent, building maintenance, electricity cost etc. This is what Oz touches on in your quote and where Oz leaves it not mentioning the rest of the plan giving a false narrative.
- Use AWS to offer SL users an on demand system. I.E. if a sim isn't in use for a certain period of time the server gets spooled down and reduces the load on AWS servers and when a user tps to that server the sim spools up and comes online again (therefore costing less in fees LL need to pay Amazon). This method was to be done as an offering where a land owner could either pay less for such a sim (with small inconvenience of waiting for the server to load when you tp there) or pay more for a dedicated sim that is always on. This is how Kitely manage there servers (also hosted on AWS just like SL) and they can offer sims for as little as $15/month for an 'on demand server' or a dedicated sim price of $149.95 to be always active (i.e. similar price to SL and still having multiple sims hosted on the server, except providing FAR more prim allowance than SL).
- Make SL assets hosted on additional and more local AWS servers therefore reducing ping (and increasing usability) for those not in the USA.
For reference below are the direct quotes from Ebbe regarding their plan for AWS and for each step. Ebbe being the then (and last) CEO provided the how on cost saving as well as improvement in stability as that is what a CEO does, looks at the whole picture not just the technical side. Also keep in mind, this would have all been discussed in the board room and details finalised prior to the announcement so what is quoted below can be taken as all being possible from a technical standpoint as Oz would have certainly interjected if it was not.
Step 1 (saving capital cost):
Quote"It turns it into less capital expenditure to have to buy all the equipment and doing all the maintenance on that. You kind-of pay for what you use; with Second Life [right now], once we’ve bought a piece of hardware, we have to sit on it whether it’s being utilised or not, whereas you can kind-of dynamically scale your consumption as necessary when you use something like AWS … which we believe will reduce costs for use and then ultimately, we hope to pass that on to customers." 5th March, 2018
Step 2 (saving running cost and passing savings to users through reduced tier):
Quote"Some experiences might want to have continuous persistence over time, and maybe that’s one type of pricing model, for an always on type of scenario. Maybe other will be fine with, hey, I’m only using this for a few hours in a class a few times a week or something. and if that can spin-up in a few seconds, and then I just need to basically pay for the time that I’m utilising it." 15th March, 2018
Step 3 (reduction in latency for improved experience for non-usa):
Quote"Today we are located in the US, which means that people from Australia or Asia or Europe have to travel quite a ways, which is hundreds of extra milliseconds of latency. So if you want to have a very dedicated community in Australia or somewhere, we could maybe start to distribute our server infrastructure to be closer to where the actual customers of those regions are, which would make things more performant." 15th March, 2018
Out of all of that plan and potential options set out to lower cost of Second Life for both LL and the user they have done only one thing - Step 1. Last I heard regarding that plan and just before Oz left was that all of that plan was now on hold and likely to be stopped due to the new owners.
So it is not quite as simple as move to AWS and everything is cheaper and better. No one said that EVER. It is far more comprehensive and they had a long term plan to see that reduction of which, has now by the looks, been abandoned by new management.
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2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:
Twothree reasons I suggested they buy an existing solution. 1. because of the potential the lab does not have the talent to make their own in spite of you laying out the framework in 5-6 paragraphs. 2. Though the in viewer solution you suggested sounds good, I'd wonder if the web based inventory system by CTS might not be faster and more powerful. 3. A ready made system already up and running wouldn't require any changes in the viewer and could be implemented more quickly than one made by the lab.No and I have wondered in past and even more so today whether they don't because a similar feature is already available on the marketplace and they don't wish to compete with that or put those developers out of business even if the market penetration is not that good.
I dont think it is that they dont have the talent, as like I said, all that is needed is to edit the code/ui to have an extra window for clothes. If they dont have the talent to edit existing code with all the majority code already written to modify an existing feature slightly then that's a whole different discussion bordering on LL should just give up the entire program.
It plain and simply comes down to Linden Lab not believing that such a feature is worth their time and effort or is too hard. Take for instance the thumbnail preview recently announced. LL would never bother with such a thing, not because they dont have the talent but because they dont want to spend the time on such features. So instead, they wait for 3rd party viewers to do it or for someone to go to Jira and post the code or design the ui for the feature for them instead and then they look at it more seriously.
As to having a website-based system, it just won't work. For starters you are even more so adding complexities for the user especially the new user. Features that are fundamental to conducting a user's second life experience such as inventory and outfit management need to stay within the viewer without having to attach a hud that degrades performance for a user and is easily detached accidently when changing outfits etc.
As to performance, there is no performance or speed issues with the current outfit manager so I cannot see how expanding it would have an impact. As to how quick LL could implement a ui based solution, like I said, the bones are all there so it should take less time that buying and adapting a website system a user created.
I also dont think it is a matter of LL competing with a user's product on marketplace and if the reason is that for them not providing an update to the outfit management to include clothes, then they need to get out of that mindset as there are certain things that need to be a UI requirement not just for the new user but also quality of life.
I am not sure whether the coding for the outfit management requires server-side editing, however if it doesn't and what I posted can all be done with viewer code then a 3rd party viewer creator could technically do it if they wanted to. That however would need someone with viewer experience to see of such a thing is possible.
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On 1/13/2023 at 1:25 AM, Arielle Popstar said:
It doesn't have to load all at once. And never mind Imvu, go look at the CTS inventory system as it somehow allows one to do the very things in S/L that you keep saying is not possible. That should really be default so maybe the Lab ought to consider buying that out like they did with Casper.
Why would they need to buy out an inventory management system for clothing like that when they basically have it already in the viewer in the form of the outfit window. It just needs updating to what it should have been when released and not half done.
The problem with the outfit window is that LL did two things wrong. Firstly, they made it so that you had to pay to take a snapshot of your outfit and secondly, they made it so that two outfit tabs do identical things (one picture, one text) rather than separating one tab as outfit and the other tab as a clothing organisation tab.
All LL need to do is make it so that the 'My Outfit' tab has the outfit picture with a 'hover on pic to view larger image' and make a new tab where you have a dropdown named clothing menu system and then use a similar save function to the outfits (creates a link to the original item (say shirt) but has it under a folder called 'Shirts' in the existing outfits folder) but instead for individual clothing items where a user can either drag the image provided from the creator as a picture link or allow the user to take a photo of the item themselves to add as a link. Something like this:
Not hard to do at all as the base scripting, window, function, item links, inventory folders etc are already there just need modifying to allow for outfits AND clothing items. Could also add a few new things like a favouriting clothing item system as well as the ability to group clothing items (and outfits) under custom groupings. Lastly, they just need to make taking pictures for the outfits tab ONLY free.
As to your 'recently worn' items request, just have it located in the 'Wearing' tab, rename it as 'Wearing/Recent' and then have a split view with Recently Worn Items as one section with date last worn next to items and then another section with 'Currently Worn'.
All 'appearance' related stuff is then in one easy to find and use window, allows for easy outfit and clothing/skin management for completely new users as well as old users (for only items you want to appear there) without removing features and systems current users like and use.
Identical to the MP link you posted except in the current SL UI without LL needing to pay a user for their product which they won't do.
Easy... though will never happen as LL dont update such features.
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7 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:
At this point pretty much everyone has their own personal definition of what they consider the metaverse to be but, given that in order to create anything of that magnitude there needs to be a clear profit incentive before anyone will consider investing the necessary capital, it seems unlikely that the metaverse will spring up purely as a social/entertainment platform.
Agree. Chat Rooms and meetings virtually are handled already much better in programs like zoom etc and it is the linking of those virtual environments that already exist to other virtual environments that is defined as the metaverse. As I mentioned in my previous post, the metaverse is the equivalent of internet 2.0. Virtual environments, worlds, apps etc all linked together as one where both RL, VR and AR are incorporated.
Taking your video example and linking it further to show the RL link the metaverse will be taking as far as Augmented Reality goes, the below video shows the construction aspect of your NVidia Omniverse data center whereby, plans to construction to maintenance is performed using AR goggles such as Microsoft HoloLens.
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24 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:
I'd have to disagree and point out that Opensimulator is at this point the only one that qualifies as being a metaverse by your definition. It has now surpassed over 100,000 S/L sized sims hosted by thousands of individual servers in a peer to peer network and stitched together through the Hypergrid, allowing for travel between many of those. It doesn't have the concurrency of S/L but at the least it has more then many of these other virtual worlds vying for the title of being the Metaverse and has shown consistent growth in the 15 years of its existence.
As I said in an earlier post, yes, OpenSim is the closest we have to a metaverse (in the old use of the term) however it is still not one and is why OpenSim themselves have not stated they are a metaverse but a hypergrid and the basis of a nascent distributed Metaverse i.e. has the potential to be a future metaverse.
There is a difference between a virtual world and a region sized area that OpenSim and SL have. OpenSim also has limitations in that it cannot do AR, VR or link very well to RL (think virtual amazon with virtual displays and a payment processing system that allows you to buy in world and have it delivered to your door in RL). These three things are also needed for it to be termed as the metaverse per todays definition.
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21 hours ago, GuliaMCR said:
In fact, as mentioned earlier, I did not mean Zucherberg Meta Horizons.
It is good that you are understanding what the metaverse is however you still haven't understood it completely. Horizons is not the or a metaverse nor is it the metaverse that Zuckerberg and Meta are (wanting to) creating. Horizon Worlds is a virtual world/game just like second life is albeit rather basic and was created prior to Meta or even their investigations into the metaverse as a world that could be accessed by their Oculus Rift VR headset.
21 hours ago, GuliaMCR said:while in fact there are many other metaverses and social virtual worlds tha exist.
There are no 'metaverses' that exist at the moment only virtual worlds. The metaverse is a combination of all virtual worlds linked together as one and accessed as by a single program.
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2 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:
I'm not sure how familiar you are with Nvidias Omniverse platform but if you haven't been keeping up with its development I'd recommend taking a look at some recent articles. I would say that Nvidia definitely qualify as a key player and having already invested heavily in development it seems unlikely that they would simply sell out to another company. Also, while their enterprise licensing is obviously still a paid for service, currently a lot of the tools they've developed for working with and creating content for use with Omniverse are free.
Nvidia's omniverse is a key player in it as well yes, but it isn't looking at achieving the same metaverse outlook as the others. Their idea is founded on collaboration between experts in that, for example, a person can design a house in Autodesk Revit whilst another renders it in 3DS Max and another looks at lighting and energy efficiency all in real time with no lag. This is more akin to a cloud collaborative world which is what they describe it as themselves.
This is also why Epic offer connections to it due to that being the nature of the collaboration and the ability for a cloud based collaboration between game developers, scripters etc in real time rather than save, send, review, edit, save send which is the current collaboration method both in development and architecture.
2 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:I haven't heard much about Epic trying to develop infrastructure upon which to run interconnected platforms but both Unreal Engine and Unity (soon™) offer connectors enabling the software to integrate with Omniverse so I'm not sure if you're referring to Epics involvement in that project or if Epic are attempting to develop their own competing product while simultaneously supporting Nvidias.
Epic are looking at building an actual metaverse whereby they are the platform and people build their virtual worlds within their system using unreal engine. Think of Ready Player One. That is what they are looking to build using their engine and extensive game development resources and contacts to make it possible. It is also why they have opened up their fortnite creation system to allow for actual other game development alongside fortnite.
2 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:I'm not sure if dated graphics and lag are Second Lifes largest stumbling blocks when it comes to being a part of the metaverse, I personally suspect that the issue of interchangeability of content between SL and other platforms may be equally problematic although their plans to incorporate compatibility for more industry-standard formats is promising (at first glance the .gltf format may seem like a competitor to .USD but the current Universal Scene Description format has support for .gltf interoperability which means you can reference .gltf assets from within USD scenes so they are essentially compatible).
The interchangeability of content between sl and other platforms are tied to their graphics and their engine. That said interchangeability is a moot point if Second Life becomes the platform rather than the other business's like Epic. As then with a better engine and less lag and better scripting, People can build virtual worlds inside Second Life and become a true metaverse.
2 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:As for whether the metaverse Neal Stephenson described in Snow Crash will ever be a reality, having read the book a few times I personally hope that's not where we end up, it wasn't exactly a utopian wonderland after all.
I agree. Sadly, human nature and greed ensures that a utopian wonderland cant happen.
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39 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:
While I agree with the majority of your post I'm not sure the above statement is entirely accurate. It's true that the majority of companies seem to be investing in trying to create a single virtual world/platform that they claim will be "the metaverse" but there are some that seem to be more focussed on creating the infrastructure, tools and other foundational building blocks necessary to link multiple worlds/platforms together which is, as you pointed out, the real key to creating a metaverse.
You are correct, however such infrastructure, tools, etc in some ways are irrelevant as the key players of the supposed metaverse (those with the backing and cash to make it happen) are the same companies that are focused on creating the world as well as the tools and only allowing a company to build in that platform. Additionally, said tools etc would easily be sold to the larger players for cash.
Take Meta for example, they are looking at not only the hosting side of the virtual worlds but also building the metaverse etc to link those worlds. Likewise Epic is creating through unreal engine their own hosting platform to utilise as a go to place where you build in their world and link to their world on the condition that you agree to their rules and terms.
Epic are ahead of the game in some respects as they through their unreal engine can already link multiple existing worlds created through their engine, for example the new Archage 2 game due to be released next year is made in unreal 5 the same engine that epic is focused on their virtual world platform at the moment. Moving to linking Archage to say Epics Matrix example world wouldnt be that hard.
Second Life is in a similar position however what is holding Second Life back is the dated graphics engine it runs on in that not only is it subject to to many polygons and you get lag but also region size.
That all said, I agree with Philip Rosedale in what he said last year. The metaverse as proposed in both snow crash and in the hopes and dreams of these companies will never happen. A form of it may happen but not a true metaverse.
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Funny to think that people/students seem to think that a grouping of virtual worlds like VR-Chat, Second Life etc is the metaverse or laughable still that one virtual world is. The fact that the OP has stated that they are looking at the virtual consumption of people on the metaverse shows that they have not researched the topic far enough unless they are looking at the habits of virtual world users to determine the possibility of what the metaverse consumption would be. So the OP really should think of a different term for their paper.
The metaverse does not exist, nor is Second Life a metaverse. All Second Life is, is a virtual world that has the possibility of being the metaverse could be in its basic form i.e. the platform to host the metaverse (Second Life the platform and the individual regions being their own virtual world). World of Warcraft is a virtual world as well of which people spend money on and in, but it isn't considered a metaverse either.
Now if all of those virtual worlds 'talked' to each other in that you can virtually interact between all those worlds from 'one metaverse' then that's a different matter. As of yet though, no virtual world interacts with another.
To put the metaverse in simpler terms, think of a single website as a virtual world. The metaverse is the collection of all those website virtual worlds linked together and accessed by one platform 'the internet'. This is what Zuckerberg, Sweeny, et al are wanting to create, Web3.0. This is also why they are receiving backlash as, the only way a metaverse can exist is for one company (or person) to host that metaverse/platform (control it).
Ironically, the closest we have to a metaverse is actually OpenSim as through their Hypergrid (link one opensim or platform to another and transfer/communicate between them), but it is never mentioned in any form in relation to virtual worlds or the metaverse. Because you know... it's opensim.
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On 10/30/2022 at 1:08 AM, Ceka Cianci said:
I think the thing that separates it is, it only has value here in this world and not open to the rest of the world.. it doesn't impact any other economy but the second life economy..
Cryptos have a world value and can impact the real world markets..
Are you sure about that?
Take for example, a person who lives in a country that has an equal exchange rate to the USD ($1-$1). They buy Lindens at that price. Then the market changes and that person's country dollar is now worth 0.6 cents to the USD. They then cashout their equal exchange bought LD to their wallet which is always converted to USD and that money is then converted back to their local currency at a higher exchange rate than bought.
This means that person, who invested $1000 into buying LD's (a game token) at exchange parity has just netted an approx. $400 profit, all under the radar of tax agencies as it was not profit made by sale of products but using the exchange as an investment opportunity and simply cashing out what was put in and not spent.
Keep in mind Linden Lab and residents only need to provide data to the tax office if they SOLD a product and earned an income from that. Cashing out something that was never spent in SL doesn't incur such reportability.
You may think this is an out there example, however, I know a few people that profited by such during the 2008 market crash. Now, obviously this doesn't happen regularly or in an extreme situation as RL currency trading does, however it can and still happens. Whenever a currency is converted on an exchange, be it an RL exchange or SL exchange one can always make a profit trading that. SL is just unique that it has no regulation or reporting whereas RL exchanges do.
Incidentally, this is also why the IRS and other such tax offices around the world have moved to try and tax (capital gains etc) virtual currencies and crypto due to such practices happening. The Linden Dollar being the exception as it is not considered a virtual currency but a game token that, according to ONE company - Linden Lab, has no real-world value...
To compare Linden Dollars to crypto, keep in mind that there was a time when crypto itself could not buy anything and was simply traded. It, like the Linden Dollar, was a token that had to be bought with RL money and then converted to RL money to spend in RL. One bitcoin was worth 'X' USD, just the same as One Linden is worth 'X' USD. Additionally, when bitcoin was only traded, a person could trade a bitcoin for something without cashing it out first, just like someone can trade or buy something with Linden Dollars without cashing it out first'.
Trying to argue that the Linden Dollar is a Game Token and different to Crypto is grasping at straws.
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Who knows if this is on topic or off topic, but can someone confirm what the underlined and bolded line means in the new post about posting and participation guidelines means?
QuoteNot Allowed:
In addition to adhering to the Community Standards, please refrain from posting content discussing inflammatory content (Politics, Social Justice issues and Interpersonal disputes), Anything that doesn’t relate directly to Second Life/Linden Lab, Generic posts (like “Post a random animal picture!” versus an acceptable “Post your Second Life pets!”), etc.If I am reading this correctly then that means that threads such as "Totally Official, Approved, Cat Thread", "5 letters game", "Make Us Laugh!" etc are now not allowed and according to the rules should/are liable for locking?
If this isn't the case then why have such a line in the not allowed section specifically stating that all threads must now be solely related directly to Second Life/Linden Lab and not randomness/fun if such threads are allowed but others not?
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55 minutes ago, Caroline Takeda said:
hence the reason the avatars have no lower body part.
Where do you have access to Meta's metaverse to be able to determine that legs do not exist?
Their metaverse has not been created yet and the concepts shown for it clearly show Zuckerberg as dressing a full avatar with legs, a meeting with other people with legs, etc. Here are some pics for you of their proposed metaverse concepts... I see legs...
So I am unsure as to why you think they propose not to have legs in their metaverse unless you somehow have insider knowledge that they dont.
Also before you start posting pics or vids of Meta's metaverse you are wrong. Horizons VR which is made by Meta is not the metaverse they are proposing, already exists, is old tech and not a metaverse at all. People seem to confuse Horizons with the proposed metaverse for some reason.
Microsoft's metaverse on the other hand has been shown not to have legs of which, as Antonioo has explained, has nothing to do with adult content but due to limitations with VR tracking and not wanting to use software walking animations like SL and VRChat do.
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12 hours ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:
The Daily Mail is not a good source of reputable information; it's known as a tabloid with a very low score at mediabiasfactcheck:
LMAO. You're not serious are you?
So now according to you not only is written evidence bias but also genuine video evidence from a random bystander recording on his phone the incident happening is also fake and bias.
Do you think the bystander went up to the ambulance and asked them to put on their sirens and 'pretend' they were in a rush to get through the traffic jam?
It is clear you have no intention of actually accepting facts provided by evidence, especially when your only comeback is but... but.. but.. its right wing media. 🙄
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20 hours ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:
there is no evidence that Extinction Rebellion ever kept an ambulance from heading to their destination.
Really? You didn't look very hard, which is saying something considering this took me literally 15 seconds to find...
Video: Extinction Rebellion protest blocks traffic and NHS ambulance | Daily Mail Online
You seem to define protesters blocking an ambulance in a manner in which the protesters themselves need to stand in front and block yet, fail to realise that these xR protest where they close of roads or bridges in this case etc can have far reaching consequences.
In the above example xR might not have blocked the ambulance directly however, the chaos caused by blocking a bridge did indeed block an ambulance from the direct route to the hospital meaning that ambulance needed to back track away from the hospital which could have caused serious issues to the patient within due to the delay.
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As far as the furry community goes, it is a difficult one to do as the SL community can be said to be different to the RL one. So LL would have to be careful with regards to this.
For example, a person in RL identifying as a Furry is an actual thing which other people would not consider being a part of even if they like dress up etc. In SL however a furry could be a person that identifies in RL as one but also a person that simply likes to be one in SL (for example due to being able to get a body cheaper than a human avatar or not wanting to be a human like everyone else), RP one or be a feral etc, but doesn't identify as one in RL or as part of the RL community.
This was the same problem in early SL where the furry community was shunned due to the perception that SL's furry community is the same as the RL community with all the stigma's that went with it, when in essence the SL community was different due to having a combination of RL and SL only variants.
It therefore makes it harder for LL to define the community as they have done with the current two which are the same in SL and RL.
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Mobile and the Future of Second Life
in General Discussion Forum
Posted · Edited by Drayke Newall
It is never solely about whether those users will migrate to Second Life from such apps. Sure that is the end goal, however, in business for the research of potential markets, such numbers are useful as it indicates that there is a market their to tap into and provide examples of what people want as far as an app goes.
For example IMVU has a total of 50million registered accounts and 10millon monthly users. Avakin has a total of 200million registered accounts and 1million daily (not monthly) users. LL can then work out from this that people are far more interested in what Avakin offers over IMVU so gear their app more towards that. I.E, better UI, avatar customisation and world editing.
The primary reasons why Second Life fails to retain its users on its PC platform is due to the high cost, complex viewer, limited scripting and graphics and lack of 'things to do' for a new person. Those are the issues that LL need to ensure doesn't follow onto the mobile platform and if they can achieve that the retention will improve. The good thing about those 'reasons' mentioned is that they also will improve the main viewer retention as well.
No one is asking for a replica of IMVU or Avakin to replace Second Life, just take them as an example of how LL could potentially make SL better. For example, I certainly wouldn't complain if second lifes avatar customisation system less convoluted and was more streamlined.
A mobile app isn't such a negative thing as it is making Linden Lab look outside the box on how to make improvements in things such as UI, lag, engine updates, etc all the while offering Second Life to a larger userbase.