Drayke Newall
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Posts posted by Drayke Newall
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15 minutes ago, belindacarson said:
Big difference between criticism and downright moaning.
Please show where I have been moaning?
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3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:
You mean they haven't been listening to you? Why might that be?
Yes only I am complaining...🙄
Second life is outdated. : r/secondlife (reddit.com)
New World Notes: What It Would Take to Truly Upgrade Second Life (Comment of the Week) (blogs.com)
Taking forever to load - Second Life Server - Second Life Community
I could post many more, those were the top ion the search results about improving performance caused by mesh, textures, etc.
The moles in this case haven't even gone by LL's OWN performance guide here Managing Private Regions - English - Second Life Community
Here is a few key points LL say to improve region performance:
- Also, note that reducing the total number of scripts in your region can improve performance. (Didn't I mention useless car scripts should be removed?)
- Once you know which objects are your top colliders, you can remove, replace or optimize them. (This was one of the feedback i deleted, bushes should be linked together and set to 'none' physics so that when multiple people walk in them it doesn't affect colliders)
- Reduce the use of the following items, which slow down region performance: large or numerous textures; sculpted prims, twisted tori, and other geometrically complex objects; particle effects.
So you say I am the one that they haven't been listening to, well seems they haven't been listening to Linden Lab either. How Ironic.
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24 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:
Interesting - I was in architecture school too and occasionally got the same treatment. But there's a basic difference between that and real life. As a student you need to tolerate incompetent criticism because you have no choice. Once you're out of school there are a lot more options about who gets listened to.
True, however those kind of people tend to be the architects that my clients left and went elsewhere because said architect still couldn't take the criticism from the clients and stakeholders about their OWN building requirements.
I've employed plenty of such architects as well that have the mentality they had in uni insisting that criticism isn't allowed as their way is better or "that's the design I came up with the client has not right to criticise it". Such employees either adapted to taking the criticism or were fired.
In this case users are the client to the moles/LL and users have every right to spout their criticism, feedback, etc to ensure that their experience is improved which includes improving retention. Just like those architects the moles and LL have the right to not accept it, however the clients also have the right to go elsewhere.
Considering this entire new project was to improve retention, after LL have failed at welcome area retention about 7 times/builds. Perhaps its about time they start listening to that feedback/criticism seeing as they themselves know those 'clients' are going elsewhere and want to stop that.
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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:
what if it would take weeks to make a mesh one to fit whatever purpose was needed for that spot? This would cost the company more money to create, slow the project down, and it has to be decided if this would be worth it in the overall plan.
If the buildings were actually made by the moles you may have a point. The trouble is, near 98% of the buildings, trees and props are not made by the moles at all and are all bought from MP content creators including the sculpt building you mentioned. So your suggestion of cost being the reason or time constraints doesn't apply.
As I mentioned earlier, this is the FIRST new region build I have seen created by the moles that has used MP user created content to such an extent. I found this surprising as I have always understood the moles didn't do this as it could show favouritism to certain content creators. It, for example, is the primary reason why LL never approached a mesh body creator to use or create for their starter avatars.
It is also why I dont understand why people are taking my criticism so badly. I am not suggesting that their builds are bad, despite the odd issues like the belli script thing I mentioned, and perhaps the in some cases high mesh complexity, most of what moles build is great. I was simply pointing out that if you are going to use user created content, you are going to need to modify certain areas, remove certain things, look at the mesh complexity, make trees alpha mask, etc to reduce the performance impact.
It is something all of us users and region owners do when we buy something from the MP that users created. Ensure LI and mesh complexity is low (whilst still looking great), fix texture issues, remove scripts to reduce lag, make sure textures are not to large, etc. That was all my criticism was. Despite that everyone seems to think I am saying Moles cant build.
Did I mention any major criticism of the actual tutorial section of the welcome zone where 98% is built by the moles? No, it was good. The only two mole built things I criticised was the fact that they used multiple prim physics shapes to a hedge rather than a longer prim and used a prim to block windows instead of making the windows opaque. Both of which cost extra rendering resources when better, easier and quicker options exist.
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1 hour ago, Persephone Emerald said:
I agree with your points, though I didn't notice all those issues myself. I do often see highly primmy items in Bellisseria and in other Mole builds, but overall the newer builds look great and are completed remarkably quickly.
I imagine Abnor and the other Moles are under an incredible amount of pressure to get these projects done quickly. That they do so and create such wonderful environments is a huge achievement.
I could pick apart you post further, but I think you probably get my point. I absolutely agree that there are areas where this build could be improved, but when Abnor and the other Moles have been working so hard to create a virtual environment that we'll enjoy, picking away at the details probably feels unappreciative, overly critical and hurtful.
Wall of text time.
I have no problem with the Moles and they do a great job with what they do and as you said we wouldn't have a lot without them. The problem is, they are part of the 'official' building squad of Second Life and they have to realise that they are the ones that need to set the example on how to build. They are also the ones that need to understand the mindset of new users.
We are hounded to no end in these forums about how laggy second life is, how things take to long to load, etc. We see on reddit, outside forums and even news articles talking about the future of the metaverse with the same points raised as to why everyone forgot about SL, left SL or why retention is so bad. Here though, we see issues that contribute to that lag, to that long load time and to those same bad experiences that has effected retention for so long in SL.
This area is, as Brett Linden said, a new take on the 'Welcome Area' and Linden Labs new method to try and solve retention. Yet, the same issues that plagued the previous starter areas still exist. There clearly was no QA here and when those issues are pointed out (i.e. QA) the Moles complain because they feel hurt. I thought I worded what I said fine, clearly others thought differently. The chop and change was because I actually deleted large chunks of worse feedback. Good thing I did.
Do Moles create good environments? Yes, however they also have issues with them that simple fixes should be able to fix yet, they persist in not taking feedback and those issues persist to their detriment. For example. I took a friend that hadn't been in Second Life before to belli to showcase premium and the houses. He was impressed and liked the fantasy area, however, the first thing he started to do is click everything.
I was in voice with him and he said "why is nothing happening". Confused, I asked "what" and he said "nothing happens when I click on the road or the plants" (we were in the fantasy zone). To my surprise, indeed, the road, plants and everything in-between showed that something should happen when I click it, yet nothing did. After looking at the objects there was a script clearly there to turn the glow on and at night. A script that had no need to be touched as it was auto. From that he said to me, this would drive him crazy and so he said he couldn't consider buying premium for the home of which was the main drawcards he was thinking of 'playing SL'. This meant a lost sale for LL and a negative first look at second life and a point lost to retention.
Tell me, why is that even a thing? You either make the script so that it doesn't allow touch or you simply drop the menu down in build that says 'click to' and change it to 'none'. Then you just copy the object over and over. A simple fix not done which cost LL a new user. Retention!
Now, as I mentioned earlier, in the Motown region there are prop cars that have scripts in them that even say ride when right clicked (something the tutorials teach). Now, considering my friends annoyance of the road's, what do you think the response will be when a new user clicks those cars and finds out they are locked, dont move and make the avatar appear half in and out of the roof when it ejects you?
Now someone asked did I like anything there? Lot's actually. The laser game, the fact that they actually point you to game areas and have board games around. The interaction of canons to go to shops (and the fact they finally have shops there). Lot's impressed me. Do you think me coming here and saying wow great job moles... now lets talk about the issues, will make the criticism less hurtful? No one likes criticism, its harsh, raw and hurts because of all that effort you put in. I got dealt plenty of it in Architecture School spending sleepless consecutive nights creating cardboard models until my fingers were raw. Did I then turn to my lecturers and say "well those that cant do, teach"? No. I took the criticism, changed what was needed, adapted, improved.
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1 hour ago, belindacarson said:
Abnor took the wind out of your sails alright 😂😂😂😂
He did? All I saw was a mole that either made a mistake in posting the wrong link or cant take constructive criticism.
Brett Linden has literally stated that the early release of this Welcome area is for testing and review to see what needs improvement etc for version 2 and when it is fully opened to new users, yet when that feedback is offered and suggestions made they get their knickers in a knot.
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1 hour ago, Abnor Mole said:
Is that a rather rude and subtle hint of "if you think you can do better do it yourself"? If it is, I would be rather surprised considering such a response came from a mole.
Not sure what you are suggesting (other than the afore mentioned) as that link doesn't address any of the issues I raised or suggestions I made, which frankly are legitimate concerns. This is an area new people will be exploring. Those same persons probably want to see something that is near perfect like they experience elsewhere in other games.
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Finally got a chance to walk around the area and to be honest was disappointed in the build quality. Parts looked like I was back in 2007 (maybe going for nostalgia?) such as the building already posted in this thread of just a texture on a prim and other areas of highly (and unnecessarily high) detailed buildings, sometimes right opposite each other giving a jarring experience. Not to mention sculpty buildings that take longer to load than the others around.
Landscaping sometimes alpha masked and others alpha blended meaning hair and other avatar attachments or other objects that use alpha blending give the usual texture flicking that should not be shown anymore and just looks plain bad such as the laser game area where a forest of trees flicker etc. (trees should be modified to alpha mask not blended). Not to mention lazy building such as the hedges that have a prim as the physics build. That in itself isn't an issue but why have a row of segmented 10 or so 5m long prims when a single prim across the entire hedge would do.
Building windows where rather than changing the window texture to opaque of the linden homes used as props, additional 'blackout' prims are added behind to block visually seeing through the windows adding extra geometry to render.
Car windows that texture flicker due to alpha blending glitches, not to mention high load driving scripts left in clearly prop cars rather than removed. If you dont intend on people to 'ride' the cars why leave the script in especially in an area designed for a welcome area for new users.
Buildings and prims not lined up properly and therefore texture flick over each other. I could go on and on.
Such an area should be the epitome of what Second Life offers. It, as the welcome area for new users and for such a large deal like Motown, should use quality builds and be at the forefront of building techniques to reduce lag, render load times etc., and certainly not have graphical texture glitches, unnecessary scripts or use outdated build methods such as sculpty buildings that take an age to load.
Lastly if you are going to have a HUD and say in local chat that it will auto-remove when tping out, make sure it does. I was left with the HUD still attached when i tped out of the region.
:ETA:
As far as the actual welcome region goes, as a suggestion, perhaps relocate the 'What is LOD' away from the 'Performance' area and place it in the 'Creating' area. There is nothing a user can do about LOD and the weblink they are sent to is solely for creation not to help a person improve their own performance.
Also, perhaps in the gaming section it also might be worthwhile to add some relevant signs to point new users to various destination guide locations that offer them the chance of earning free lindens. This will at least give new users the feeling that they can earn lindens like they can in other virtual worlds like roblox, imvu, avakin, etc and reduce the dread that comes with being a new user and not having the chance to get things without heavy investment.
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4 hours ago, Caitlin Tobias said:
Yes, it surprised me too. I have this issue occasionally with YouTube or other sites with media, never had it in Second Life though. I got the message in local chat, from the HUD and it is also explained in a sign at the venue.
Well if that's the case then chances are I would have the same issue.
24 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:It's not that bad. Remember this is for newbies who won't have mesh bodies, so mesh clothing might confuse them.
Yes. Let's not confuse the newbies. We will just place a HUD on the screen automatically showing how to listen to music on a region that is part of the welcome area from two different veiwers with no explanation of where to download the second viewer - firestorm. But never fear, just to 'enhance' the new user experience further all our remaining tutorials at newbie island will only be for the default viewer.
On a side note, its the first time ive seen a mole built multi-region area built mostly from non-mole built creations. Just a shame they chose items that are overly complex which will only add to the lag. Why choose a vendor trailer the size of a car with a LI and complexity half the size of a full two storey Linden Home with multiple 1024 textures? At the landing point at that. Took forever just to load that one trailer. Not the wisest move considering lag and load times are top of the list as to why new people leave second life.
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1 hour ago, Caitlin Tobias said:
Oh, it looks wonderful and I was really excited about it!
The music is played via an automatically attached HUD (no problem there) and then after waiting and waiting and much silence I got the disheartening message that due to licencing this stream is not available in my country.Well that's a little odd. You would think that considering Second Life is a world wide platform that they would at least ensure that the deal would be made so that all users can listen to it. Perhaps Linden Lab couldn't afford the licensing for multiple countries. lol
Considering this isn't the case you would also think that such a thing would be mentioned in the blog or four news articles linked in the blog.
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13 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:
In favor of the new Apple AR/VR goggles..they have the big advantage of using no "controllers", so they basically fulfill the Science Fiction movie / show version where people use their hands to move and select things.
Apple have no such advantage at all despite them claiming they do. Seems Apple's marketing spin once again is in full swing and working.
You have been able to use hands instead of controllers with Oculus and other VR goggles for years.
Everything Apple have used to create these goggles has been possible and used before for years. There is nothing new about them except that they stuck an internal camera in the googles to show your eyes on the outside of the screen 'to be different' and made them have a small computer in them increasing their weight etc. Even their battery time is the lowest of all the VR and AR goggles available.
Microsoft hololens have hand tracking, head tracking, eye tracking and everything Apples Headset does except the two aforementioned things. Seeing that Hololens uses a link to an actual computer using bluetooth also makes it better than Apple's goggles as it allows for far more processing power and future potential to link to smartphones for on the move stuff. Additionally, I would prefer not to have a screen 1 inch away from my eyes as that is going to cause nothing but eye trouble in the future.
Hololens is the only mainstream and true usable AR/MR goggles available as they project the Augmented reality into transparent lenses meaning that the real world IS the actual world, not a reflection of it created on a screen by a camera like Apple's goggles. In other words think of all those movies which show you holding a piece of see through glass as a phone, that is the tech that hololens uses as their screen. The only downside at the moment of Hololens is the field of view and resolution as pointed out earlier in the thread with true AR glasses/goggles.
Hololens is far more Science Fiction movie stuff than Apples new shinier version of Goggle Cardboard.
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The problem with all these larger form factor AR systems like Hololens and this new Vision Plus is that they are focusing on a person staying in one place either tethered to a charger/computer or giving them some mobility in a short charge timeframe.
This is these companies fundamental flaw in their thinking. They are catering to a small subsect of the population and that subsect dont particularly want it and also not thinking about other possible ways to make the system smaller with more usable time.
Until these companies start looking at the whole AR picture the demand for these systems will not be there.
What they need to start looking at pairing glasses to the phones similar to google glass but on a larger scale. At the moment these devices solely rely on their own internal computing systems and therefore are large and bulky and require huge power. What they need to do is utilise systems that project the images onto a glass screen etc to see the environment that way.
Until this happens all these goggles will be doa as people want mobility.
AR is not VR which is what these companies keep pushing. AR is when I take a walk down the local shopping centre I get a projection of prices in the store which, I can with a imaginary push of a finger button, get a comparison online price of all local stores offering that select good.
It is the way a world of scifi can become reality where holograms and other things that we just cant do or never could do with machines but can on a glass projection. It is me saying to a friend do you want to play a game of zombie warfare where I go with them to the local park and it uses the natural environment around to 'rez' zombies for us to fight, hide behind trees as cover shooting etc.
AR is a system where I can play Second Life using my VR googles and then decide to go out in the real world with AR glasses on that links my second life on my phone with my AR glasses projecting messages from in world on the screen and also allow me to see a persons avatar projected on them rather than their real self. True Augmented Reality not a hybrid form of VR and AR.
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Just announced... Also comes in a waterproof design with optional breathing accessory (which of course costs extra)
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On 5/10/2023 at 4:34 PM, Arduenn Schwartzman said:
This just in (2 days ago): Business Insider has declared the big M Metataverse to be clinically dead. Long live the Metaverse.
The problem with journalists (in this case a PR CEO) like these is they always seem to confuse what the metaverse is with the majority believing it is only a facebook thing. Yes, Facebooks Metaverse is DOA, but everyone knew this would be the case as they had no substantial platform or tech developed to even show upon their declaration of them being "the leader of the metaverse". All they had was images, a plan and an already half baked, old, dead game they tried to adapt to a form of future metaverse.
Business insider claiming that the metaverse is dead is a little premature and shows lack of knowledge of other leaders in the field that have plodded along with their strategy with true platform ability. These include epic's fortnite and unreal engine, minecraft, roblox, vrchat etc.
Whilst Second Life is slowly plodding along the one that everyone including these so called tech journalists and even users here forget is epic.
For example, their recent updates to their unreal engine, release of content creation and world creation using the fortnite engine, and most recently announced just this year their shared marketplace for content creation that is in many ways similar to Second Life's marketplace for inworld creation. These updates are all geared towards their metaverse vision and Tim Sweeney is adamant to continue with it and being successful.
The metaverse was never as what Meta was claiming it to be. The metaverse is a combination of a digital presence of people engaging in activities online that predominantly revolve around a social environment such as games or hangouts. Not a virtual office or meeting place that Meta was trying to push to drive sales of their oculus rift vr goggles. Second Life also fails to realise this, continuing to push their office options.
So yes, Meta's version of the metaverse failed, but that didn't even get started and was a pipedream of a company now on the endangered species list. Epic on the other hand, like other versions such as roblox etc mentioned earlier, are full steam ahead and second life is... well, plodding slowly along as it always has.
Even the notion that AI is replacing the metaverse is absurd as people are using it in a manner to build the metaverse. Take for instance the idea of using AI to dynamical create in world environments with content based on a select intention, quests that use ai to change the world dynamically. Zones generated on users likes, ideas, thoughts, etc.
This is Epics response to this so called business insider article declaring the metaverse dead.
Epic CEO mocks ‘metaverse is dead’ notion — 600M coming to the ‘wake’ (cointelegraph.com)
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I thought it wasn't to bad for once. The only two gripes I had with the video was the poor poor quality and also that horse animation (jump waaaay to high).
Still think it would be better if LL showcased a lot more video's on their homepage like the ones others have posted in this thread. Would be easy enough to do as well just get rid of the static images and add the video that people click to play or autoplay on scroll). Another thing they should do is make the blog link in the top menu and far more noticeable that way people can see it is active and make lots of pics and vids not shown easily accessible.
The only other thing I would say that is relevant to the video in question is that, if Linden Lab are going to feature furry avatars on the SL homepage as a way to market, they really should ensure, that when someone clicks that 'Join Free' button, that the avatars they get to select from actually HAS a furry avatar to choose. By not having that option they have just obliterated their marketing move at the very start.
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On 4/20/2023 at 10:04 PM, Jaylinbridges said:
I think it depends on where in the world the player is located, since UDP lag with long ping times can cause a time lag in a game, compared to those with no lag locations in the world.
I am 50 miles from the Amazon AWS cloud, and we are fiber front to end, with 25 ms hop times to AWS. I have no detectable avatar lag with motion.
Those complaining about avatar motion control lag should state their world location and actual ping times to the LL AWS servers in Oregon. LL decided a few years ago to not use other AWS cloud locations on other continents - because it would cost them too much. I have heard nothing to change that bottom line financial view from LL.
You are talking about only one form of 'lag' that a person may experience in SL and that is latency lag i.e user to server. SL however is not the same as a fps game where only input lag exists. Within SL there is also server lag that affects many things that is outside of the control of a user or a users location to the server likewise there is graphics lag based on not only user content but also, viewer coding, cache issues, etc.
In SL there is:
- Script lag, i.e. go to a high script region and you will experience lag created on the server and not client side.
- Temp rez lag. Created by to many object entry calls for the region with potential to crash the server. Once again server lag.
- Avatar region lag. Created by a region having over about 30 avatars at one time. Once again server lag.
- Region crossing lag. Created as your avatar, inventory and entire being is recompiled from one server to another. Server lag.
- Graphics lag. Created by the sl viewer not being able to utilise multi-threads, cores, latest graphics cards full potential etc.
- Pathfinding lag. If you played Linden Realms when the monsters were around you would have seen the monsters sometimes lag when they are chasing you where they would stop while your running and then quickly tp to you.
All of those are different from the lag you talked about and recognised as lag. All of those types of lag give the same result. Slows the avatar down and makes the viewer look jerky.
There is also more types of lag that can be user generated. Texture trashing is one for example..
Then there is as mentioned before, lag created by simply the process in which your computer decompiles the cache to the viewer and back again. i.e. waiting for a region to load when you tp into it.
All of these types of issues mentioned are what people mean when the talk about 'lag' not just latency. All of these issues also affect the usability, workability and creation of any game in SL.
Additionally, everyone that doesn't live right next to a server dont care about latency lag. People are used to it from other games etc. That's why you also dont hear anyone complain about latency lag but instead all the lag issues I mentioned above.
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4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:
My money is still on the enchantment of narrative for "game" success in SL.
That's the key. I dont think any person, myself included is expecting SL to be the next COD, WoW or Civilization. I would love a ready player one experience where i can be sitting in a club and then hop to a game of COD with friends all in SL but it isn't going to happen. That is where Epic are targeting their metaverse to.
There are plenty of games that could easily adapt to SL to improve retention, socialisation and things to do etc, but the current scripting, and game functions dont allow for any of it as per my previous post.
A simple look on itch.io or steam shows for example how popular visual novels or visual novels with simple questing, shooting, adventure elements etc are. Can this be done in SL to any form of satisfaction? No.
Here are a two examples of games that would be good for SL and that are simple that 'could' work in SL if the current tools are updated including pathfinding, animesh, temp attachments, experience tools, etc.
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3D Visual novel:
- I tp to a visual novel region and as soon as I arrive there my avatar automatically changes (temp attachment) to the main character look.
- Any other person that tp's there to play as well is automatically hidden so I can not see them or interact with them (unless the visual novel creator wants that form of interaction)
- Upon start, an inbuilt viewer (or plugin) shows a ui (non hud attachments) where I can interact with menu's on screen similar to modern visual novel games (any one playing madpea games should know how bad hud attachments for games are) not to mention controls.
- I can grab quests, interact with npc's that move and talk properly to give quests, interact etc.
Can this visual novel be done? No, Even though a visual novel is the simplest 'game'. Firstly, temp attachments dont work like that, secondly experience tools cannot hide other avatars or stop interaction with them (ie no public chat), thirdly, we only have huds and such hud scripting is impossible not to mention the lag they would cause and fourthly, animesh doesn't allow for highly interactive or immersive actions and nor does the audio system i.e. no large file voice acting, not movement based on situation etc.
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Party game/obstacle course like Fall Guys.
- I tp to region and queue with random other people until the round starts
- I move around the course using my avatar and animations like slide on belly etc
- I slide through, cream, jam, jump over swinging, twirling obstacles etc
- I can get blown off the edgy by wind, moving balls that I need to dodge etc
- I can pick up items and dynamically interact with them etc
- I have to reach the end in a certain time and if not or fall off the course I get moved to the start or another zone waiting for the game to begin again
Can this be done? No. Firstly, there is no queuing system, secondly avatars cannot move or function to allow sliding, rolling jumping (other than jumping way to high) or even crouching dynamically (the animation plays but your avie height is always the same solid object height). Thirdly, there is no way to blow wind onto people that pushes them or moving objects like balls may roll but no way to weigh them down so they cannot be moved my avies etc as the physics engine just doesn't work. Fourthly, you cannot pick up items and run with them without lag delays etc.
Both games or similar games would be fine for SL. Not AAA games but games that add some element of fun, socialisation, retention etc. But both are impossible in any form of fun way. Even a game like multi region Pokémon isn't possible as experience tools, whilst promised, still hasn't been upgraded to allow it.
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3D Visual novel:
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18 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:
practically nobody's using the game features that exist in the platform, let alone hitting their limits with an actual game.
Lets look at those released gaming systems or gaming potential systems that are broken/unfinished and haven't been updated since they released:
- Pathfinding - so bad and not updated that LL actually removed it from their Linden Realms due to it not working properly and lagging
- Temp attachments - doesn't remove already worn items anymore or cant recognise not to replace mesh body etc i.e only recognises now 'add' and not 'wear' which they claimed as a 'fix' instead of creating new command LlAddAttachToAvatar they just made LlAttachToAvatar add instead of completely replace. Both are needed not just add like LL have implemented.
- Animesh - very basic and lags the region when used, not to mention takes so much land impact if you want them to look realistic making them pointless as an npc for any game specific function.
- Animesh attachments - only allowed 1 and max 2 to wear despite needing more especially for non human avatar gameplay. i.e think of a dragon humanoid character. Tail, wings, ears. Thats three and the bare minimum still would need more.
- Experience Tools... still waiting for those promised features
- Windlight - gimped with no clouds (flight games), dynamic weather (reduce lag by not having temp rez weather systems) or ability to block sunlight with objects (reduce lag/li from not having to have mesh/prim layers to make a cave or under a bridge dark)
- Physics...physics and pathfinding...and just physics
- Inbuilt viewer combat system
Take the above mentioned inbuilt combat system in the SL viewer. It hasn't been updated since before SL released yet, would reduce combat related lag exponentially if it was updated. Currently we have to rely on multiple scripts to perform - input > viewer > hud > Gun > viewer > hud > floating text > viewer and sometimes > region systems.
With an updated combat system enabled on a region however all you would have is input > viewer > gun > viewer > viewer. By removing the combat hud it dramatically reduces the script lag. Yet, LL in their infinite wisdom dont bother to updated the viewer/region combat system so we are stuck with asking people to remove as many scripts (including ao sometimes) from the avatar just to do combat.
The sad reason why practically nobody uses those game features you mention is because they dont work or are so basic they may as well not work.
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12 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:
Thinking more about this, Drayke, if LL takes away the ability for an object to keep it's original name, how would they be able to pull items that are DMCA'd? I think the original name would have to stay and an additional line added so the OWNER could name the item a second name of their choice. Then, a choice added in search to search either by Legacy name or Owner name.
Linden Lab dont track the name at all for such purposes for reasons Qie mentioned. The name is only relevant for the identification of the object in the inventory of the creator/owner and system prompts, etc.
All objects and avatars in Second Life are assigned a unique Asset UUID (refer here: UUID - Second Life Wiki ) and it is this that LL ban/remove it by.
12 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:However, in my other post where I said prioritize. Your response to that, Drayke, seemed to me you were saying prioritizing won't work, but rather what a mobile viewer needs is new ways of doing things that are simplified. So, the focus then should be on simplification rather than prioritizing. There are a lot of features in FS that many never use. I think it needs to be stripped down to what people use the most and really need, and what is just there taking up space that is hardly ever used, be left out altogether. I still think prioritize is a very important factor.
Prioritising and simplifying can go hand in hand. LL need to prioritise what is important and from that simplify the mobile viewer to ensure that whilst simplified it doesn't detract from a persons use, retention and Second Life requirements.
Take for example the build menu. Everything in that cannot be prioritised as all of the functions it contains are needed to build effectively. That said, if LL want building using prims to be part of the mobile viewer, they cannot use the same build menu as fingers on a mobile will not be able to select the right option. This then means that LL can either simplify the ui, simplify building with prims, introduce new building mechanics or leave building to the desktop viewer and allow item rezing and placement of items in the viewer only.
This means that in this case LL need to prioritise what they want in the mobile viewer (i.e. only rez and placement) however from there, need to simplify those commands to ensure that they work and have ease of use in the mobile viewer.
This is how for example Roblox do things. They have the program everyone downloads on PC, console and mobile to 'play' Roblox environments, however, they also have a PC only program called studio that is used to create those environments.
Avatar customisation however is different. Everything that involves avatar customisation would be needed for a Mobile Viewer to be successful. They cannot prioritise x feature over y and therefore have only one option, keep everything but alter the UI and avatar customisation to function better than we have now.
There is a use for both prioritising and simplifying (dont like that word as making something easier to use with a better ui isn't simplifying). It just that sometimes and in most cases with Second Life you cannot prioritise.
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30 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:
LMAO so let me get this right. You say there is no way to categorise content nor is there any categorisation of existing content, however when someone posts that there is and always has been, you say that person has no clue.
Of course there is currently no system as the marketplace and second life are not linked in that way. Doesn't mean they cant be. Also all what you posted is easily fixed with with standards being introduced which, many people in this thread have stated as such, yet you continue to hamper on about no, no that's not possible.
You also say that because users input where their item belongs in the category this opens it up for mistakes and doesn't guarantee the correct category. True, but the same can be said to all those regions that are categorised under shopping places in search yet they offer no stores or things for sale.
Based on your logic and reasoning this means that Linden Lab should not have categories for search of regions because there is no way for 'the system' to identify what exactly a sim has on it.
Please... if your going to use such pathetic arguments at least try to hide them as better ones.
Every thing anyone puts forward as an option as to why SL needs mobile or is looking forward to mobile or identifies glaring issues with the current system you just rail against it as clearly your one of those that dont like change, everything is ok as it is and oh look a Linden can I have your autograph type.
You are clearly not here for a discussion but to troll. Expect no more discourse from me with you. I dont feed trolls.
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11 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:
There is currently no practical way to identify a mesh shirt as a shirt and not say, a house. Implementing a system for that is possible, but poses the problem of correctly categorising all the existing content, when you have no way to determine automatically, what category it goes in, you are 20 years too late on that one.
You are joking right?
Currently a total of 8,483,195 existing objects (if not more) are categorised and even have pictures included of said content.
Of that, 3,520,459 objects (including mesh and system layered clothing) are categorised as apparel, of which includes:
- Children's: 179,417
- Clothing Textures: 18,002
- Men's: 393,986
- Unisex: 65,197
- Women's: 2,728,659
Taking those 2,728,659 Women's clothing they include:
- Women's Bottoms: 220,605
- Women's Clothing Fat Packs: 32,375
- Women's Costumes: 190,508
- Women's Dresses: 627,338
- Women's Footwear: 283,806
- Women's Intimates: 186,583
- Women's Outerwear: 45,549
- Women's Outfits: 448,282
- Women's Swimwear: 79,232
- Women's Tops: 349,233
Taking those 627,338 Women's Dresses they include:
- Casual Dresses: 145,454
- Cocktail Dresses: 37,535
- Formal Dresses: 95,119
- Summer Dresses: 30,400
Taking those 95,119 Formal Dresses they include:
- Bridal: 5092
- Formal Gowns: 63057
I could do the same for body parts, tattoos, hair, unmentionables, piercings, Avatar accessories, complete avatars, furry clothing and even furry avatar components like heads and legs if you wish as well.
But, you keep on going thinking no categories of clothing has existing in the past 20 years or not believing the fact we have had item categorisation since well before 2009. LMAO 🤣
Also, why stop there, you could even go further and have a home decorating system where plants, furniture etc are automatically categorised in a nice little menu called "House" that all a person needs to do is click the house button and in there are all their home decoration objects with a nice picture ready to drag out and rez.
All without ever looking in an outdated inventory tree directory or having to rez the object out because there is no visual hint to what the object is other than a yellow cube.
As I said earlier, 90% of everything required to set up such an avatar customisation system (and more) is already in place. If Linden Lab can't figure out the last 10% then they have no right calling themselves developers.
11 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:And I wasn't talking about saved outfits, or what you are currently wearing either. That you assumed I was proves my point about you not knowing how to use the features we already have.
Then show me a system in any viewer, default or TPV, that has what I have shown in the image I posted that doesn't require a user to use the current outfit tabs that are designed to save a complete outfit as per their intended use (per the LL troubleshoot and wiki). Which includes a system that categorises clothing correctly for ease of editing your avatar. If you can't (which I am 100% sure you can't) then any other methods you state are invalid as no new user would or should be needed to work out how to do it otherwise via a workaround.
You cannot claim that just because you use a workaround to a system designed for a different thing that you know how a system should be used over a person that uses it as its intended use.
As per what @Arielle Popstar mentioned, workarounds are not a solution and are part of the problem.
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6 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:
What could LL do for no mod items that are named something like blah, blah, blah 6 which is really - let's call it blank - because we forgot the name or it has no useful name. Could the lab add a line where the owner could rename it? Or what?
Clarifying - it wouldn't change the original name of the no mod item but somehow a line added where OWNER can additionally write a name for the item. Is this possible?
The only thing the name on an object serves is for identification by the user, nothing more. Updates for objects and anything else related to that object are handled by UUID. Adding a new line for the owner isn't necessary at all.
What Linden Lab should do is simply remove editing the name from the no-mod system. The object stays no-mod but the name of the object can be changed.-
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1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:
That is one of the most pathetic strawman arguments I've heard from you, most newbies who give up do so LONG before they have seen enough to denounce the scripting, and the lack of content caused by that, they are far more likely to complain about there being an overload of content to choose from.
It is still a valid point and in no way a strawman argument as content is what makes people come and makes people stay. If those new users travel around sl and find out that boat has terrible navigation, movement and controls, switch to another boat and it is the same then yes that lack of scripting ability WILL and DOES affect that new persons opinion.
They dont need to know that x script is missing or y script does this. They experience it and that is enough based on what they have experienced in other software, games and platforms.
1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:A statement that implies that costs will automatically be lower on non-PC platforms, implying that the PC is the cause of the high cost, rather then the users choice of customised avatar.
What the hell are you on about. I am not implying anything. I only have data and experience from the PC platform of the viewer as that is all we have at the moment. It is a known fact that new users dont stick around because of the cost to buy a decent looking avatar is high. There are even threads in these very forums from said users saying as such.
I wrote PC Platform to make sure that you didn't think I was talking about the mobile view. Everyone else seemed to understand what I meant...
1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:Thank you for clearly demonstrating that despite your self proclaimed expertise and experience, you apparently are totally unaware that you can already add and remove items via the appearance window without going to your inventory window, and have been able to do so since at least the introduction of viewer 2.
That YOU have no clue how to use SL says more about YOU than SL.
I'm sorry, I must have missed the category in the outfit menu labelled shirt that has a list of all the shirts in my inventory or those I saved as an individual entity not part of an outfit that I can add from that shirt menu without having to find them in my inventory.
I am not talking about an item saved to an outfit or an item the avatar is already wearing, which somehow you think that is what I am talking about. The fact that you didn't even know what I was talking about shows you have no idea what people are asking for when we are talking about streamlining and improving the viewer.
1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:More disingenuous strawman BS. Windows has a start menu button on the toolbar, clicking it causes the start menu to appear, go figure, wow complicated UI right?
Who said I was talking about the start menu? Perhaps you haven't seen the notification menu that slides from the right. Or the menu that Microsoft edge has that you click a button and a menu slides from the right. Or the same on literally every software, game, OS, etc, created since 10 years ago.
Also who cares if its a slide out menu or a separate window.
Give me my screen real-estate back! Where I dont have to have a separate build, inventory and chat window open when I build. One window that allows me to flick between each menu is perfectly fine. I want to see the SL world not a screen of windows, HUD's and a tiny fraction of the world. THAT is what I am suggesting.
47 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:And lastly, since YOU didn't mention cloning mmo's, a reference to people demanding SL clone some mmo can hardly be a reference to YOU, let alone an "attack".
No one here is saying to clone MMO's lmao. You seem to have this idea that we want a UI exactly like an mmo. No one has ever said that. We have provided examples of ui elements that function and may work. We dont want a copy of the UI of an MMO. We want the way that they manage things.
For example you think I am suggesting to clone the UI of an MMO or Avakin life where you can choose 5 heads etc and that is it for avatar customisation. Nothing of the sort. What I and some others are suggesting however to streamline things is to update the outfit menu to something like this:
Where the appearance menu/outfit menu is used to not only save outfits (right of image) but also have a section where you can preview and wear a shirt, pants etc in a categorised menu that is in the same place as other avatar customisations and separate from the inventory removing the need to remember where it was put.
But it doesn't stop there, then there is attachment point issues, wear vs add, items not rigged appearing on the avatar in odd rotations, ao's affecting other bento items when they shouldn't, animations moving attached items not rigged to a different position, eyes tracking issues, huds, more huds and more huds, lagging sims. Things that should have standards, you know, if I have a ring for the finger it attaches to the finger bone not my eye and appears on my finger.
If you think adding things to an already existing window is copying the UI of an MMO or fixing known issues with dressing and editing the avatar then... well... I dont know what to say to that.
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3 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:
I've never met a noob complaining on their first day that "the scripting here is so limited, I am leaving".
No but the lack of content that can be provided to make those users stay is limited due to that scripting therefore affecting retention. But what do I know, it's not like Linden Lab have any plans to release this year new code for such a reason... Oh wait...
3 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:I've never met a noob complaining on their first day that "the PC I used to log in with was too costly, I am leaving".
Did I say that they complain that a computer is to costly? No. I said that Second Life has a high cost especially at start up. But what do I know, its not like Linden Lab have any plans to reduce this start up cost by making a new avatar so as a user doesn't need to buy one from a creator to look as good... Oh wait...
3 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:I've never met a noob complaining on their first day that "the viewer has too many options, I am leaving".
Actually they do. Perhaps you should look outside of talking to noobs inside SL and talk to the ones that left. Avatar customisation is hugely more complex than it needs to be.
3 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:"Lack of things to do", is another matter, the whole "your world, your imagination" thing only works for people who HAVE an imagination, and your proposed "dumb it all down" ensures that you will attract people who DON'T have an imagination. THIS is why you will fail.
Where have I said to dumb down the viewer? I haven't said anything as such at all. Making improvements to the viewer to streamline its functions and bring little used features to the forefront to have a use, etc, is not dumbing it down.
Why should a person have to go to their inventory to do most avatar customisation when within SL is an outfit window made specifically for avatar customisation?
A system hardly known or used. A system that if made better to allow for all customisation (i.e. adding clothes etc) would dramatically not only reduce inventory performance issues, but improve user retention as well.
An already made system that can easily be modified to allow for all avatar customisation as 90% of the coding is already there. But according to you that is dumbing down the UI?
2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:1. Dumb down the viewer despite their previous attempt at doing so being a colossal disaster.
Never said such a thing. Dumbing down a viewer is removing features. Improving features is not dumbing down nor is making the UI more user friendly, easier to find things, having systems that belong in 'x' place be there and not in 'y' place.
On the contrary, I want them to add features, especially those they have taken out such as the full windlight and nimbus cloud system that Linden Lab promised to add in their 2007 acquisition announcement. A system that would increase user retention, decrease performance issues, remove unnecessary temp prims flooding sims, etc.
2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:2. Crowbar in what you referred to as a "bleeding edge 3D modelling app" despite that INCREASING viewer complexity by at least one order of magnitude.
When did I ever say to add a "bleeding edge 3D modelling app"? All I have ever said is allow for prims to be joined into one object and extend the cutting of a prim further using boolean commands. That is not increasing viewer complexity at all. As a matter of fact it is reducing it as it removes the need for multiple linksets, multiple additional textures, extra loading etc. It also increases user retention as it allows people to build in world competitively giving those new users something to do.
You know, the same tools that Second Life's co-founder Corey has stated should have been added when mesh was released.
I also said they need to bring in a better material system that had more options than Normal, Diffuse and Specular. Seems LL agreed as we have PBR coming soon.
2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:3. Incorporate un-intuitive "slide out of the edge of the screen" UI elements from a game reputed to have one of the worst UI's EVER, because despite "hidden until you find it by accident" UI elements INCREASING viewer complexity and unfriendlyness, YOU thought it would look cool.
Such a thing would in no way increase the viewer complexity. Also very odd how you say a slide out menu is the worst UI element ever, considering every UI imaginable now has such a system. If it is good for, other games, Microsoft office, Windows 10 and 11, Autodesk, Adobe, blender, firefox, chrome, edge, android, mobile ios, facebook, gmail, outlook, synology os, etc.
But hey, what do all those multi billion dollar companies know about UI design when you say such UI design is bad.
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Motown: LL's Partnership with Capital Music, and the New User Experience
in General Discussion Forum
Posted · Edited by Drayke Newall
Thanks for actually responding to the feedback and explaining the reason. I also know that scripts run idle (including avatar scripts) unless interacted with, that wasn't the issue here. He felt that he would constantly think he needed to click something, or something could be interacted with and so decided against it. I also have no doubt he did overreact and I actually said that he was to him. The point I was making in my response is, little things such as that can have a negative outcome and comes down to user friendliness.
Whilst I appreciate the reason for such a system and understand its need, for me personally when I have built things in the past for my and other user's regions where only I or they have the ability/need to click them, I set the "click to" in the build menu to 'none'. This doesn't stop me/them from touching or running the script for troubleshooting (like you do) as, the 'right click > touch' still works to run the script. It just removes complications on the user end in thinking something was interactable. I do the same to furniture where creators have left 'touch' as the default and change it to 'sit' for user friendliness. For example the chairs in your cinema build on the Motown region. Simple things to help stop a user thinking something is there, work out what the interaction is, etc. I do it differently to you and that's fine.
As to my other feedback in relation to the thread topic, I probably could have worded it better but when it is 2am in the morning and I am responding quickly after visiting the region, I didn't want to drag the response out or forget the things so did it in a quick almost point form response. In future however, I will keep such feedback to myself as it seems to be unwanted and taken way out of proportion in these forums. Everybody will probably now cheer.