Kwakkelde Kwak Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Toysoldier Thor wrote: So if Mesh is such an amazing technology (which I totally agree it is) then why would LL impose an ariticial economic penalty on a technology that if quickly adopted onto the grid - could displace all those EVIL SCULPTIES that Medhue and others hate so much? Please Medhue - dont post now telling us all that you dont hate sculpties with a passion - your past posts and Drongles too in this thread makes your opinions on Sculpties clear. If I were LL and I wanted to displace an old resource hogging / sim lagging technology with a new much more efficient and more flexible mesh technology... the last thing on my mind would be to impose an economic penalty on this technology. Yes and what if the new restrictions are one of the main reasons mesh is more efficient? You kind of overlooked that it seems. If you put no restrictions on mesh, people will treat them with the same ignorance as they treat sculpts and textures. The motto there seems to be "the more the better". Where when you put some restrictions on the tool, less becomes more. It's not the mesh itself that's so superefficient, it's the fact meshbuilding allows people to build efficiently. Carte blanche will degrade the mesh to just another spawning pit of lag. Toysoldier Thor wrote: Is this academcically wrong? YES. But the world in SL is not perfect as it is not in RL. Prims put loads on a sim. Lag exists. But LL should be doing everything to promote the technology that best reduces that load - not penalize it. If they take of the "penalty", it won't reduce the load... it's not rocket science... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 They made the Mesh penalty into Rocket Science that generally only tech geeks of Mesh can understand. Even if your point is true and a limiting penalty were need to reduce the factor of run away inefficient mesh builds... they could have done this with some simple easy to understand restrictions - Much less granular. I know as a mesh building technoid - this would grate at your very fibre since you know all the fine details of what makes a mesh efficient versus laggy on the sim.... But in almost all case the KISS Principle wins.... They could have set much more basic upper limit thresholds before imposing a penalty. instead LL Tech Geeks and all of the CLosed Beta users around them that loved all that was TECH in Mesh ... went on a feeding frenzy of creating this hugely complicated variable cost model that penalized mesh in every aspect that could cause lag... download costs, physics costs, embedded script costs, model size costs..... STUPID for REAL LIFE ADOPTION. You all are proud of yourselves for creating the perfect lag-incurring cost calculation models for mesh, but you all made creating a mesh the technology for the FEW... ahhhh but maybe that is what you all wanted ??? STUPID ME! You wanted to make sooo utterly complicated and secretive in how to make the best low cost mesh model that only the most mesh model geekiod could create them and thus dominate the future market in mesh!! Now I get it. You didnt want simple. You could have easily created a very simple model for cost penalizing mesh models that were too crazy and been far more forgiving for reasonable mesh models..... but you and LL didnt. Lightbub is going on now... Mesh was deployed in SL for the Technical Elite and with the objective of scaring away the hobbyists and technical noobs that all had started figuring out sculpties. very smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 A sculpty IS a mesh, just a limited one. Even the "normal prims" are mesh. There is no rocket science. Use less data, get less costs. Can it be more simple? All people need to figure out (and I'm confident they will) is how to make something look good using less data. I really don't see how you vision the old "a-prim-is-a-prim" rule applied to mesh. This would involve getting rid of custom LoD, getting rid of the ability to use up to 65k vertices, getting rid of multiple faces. What do you have left then? a sculpt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 NOWWWWWWW Getting back to the OP (me) of this thread.... I am trying to figure out how to get the fully baked textures of a model I created in Sculptris or 3D Coat into SL in a level of beauty that i see on these 3D modeling tools. But I think Drongle already answered that this is not yet possible until some other LL project completes. I can get a degraded version of these textures into SL and the model but they surely do not look as good as they didn in the 3D tool. Also, even though I bring these textures in at 1024x1024, when they are applied to the model it looks blurred and almost pixelated. Not sharp like a 1024 SL image looks like normally. sigh... i will keep playing... the other aspect of this learning process is how costly it is getting to experiment. Unlike Textures where you can upload a FREE Temp texture... sadly it seems this in not the case for mesh objects. I have already spent a lot in uload fees to get my test models into SL - only to end up throwing them away. The model uploader preview screen is horrible in and you cant really get a good impression of how the model looks like on the grid from this preview. LL needs to create some kind of MESH MODEL Free Upload of Temp models. Say that the model will only exist for 24 hours before LL deletes the model. That would be so darn helpful to us Mesh NOOBS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Toysoldier Thor wrote: the other aspect of this learning process is how costly it is getting to experiment. Unlike Textures where you can upload a FREE Temp texture... sadly it seems this in not the case for mesh objects. I have already spent a lot in uload fees to get my test models into SL - only to end up throwing them away. The model uploader preview screen is horrible in and you cant really get a good impression of how the model looks like on the grid from this preview. If you want to save on upload costs...use the aditi grid where everything is free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Seriously dude, get over the sculpty BS. Rez a dang sculpty, then rez a dang mesh. Which 1 rezzes faster? There are a bunch of good reasons the mesh rezzes 10 times faster. Yeah, we are all just part of the conspiracy against sculpties. There is no way in the world that any of us might f_ing know what we are talking about. For your information, I was not in the closed beta, only in the open beta, and I complained just as much as I always do. Ask any1, lol. If you want to know exactly how to make your items with mesh, then post a wireframe image of it. It sounds to me like you are playing with mesh to prove to yourself how wonderful sculpties are. It doesn't really matter to me. I'm just going to keep explaining things to every1 that I know, all my customers and every1 that comes to me for advice. I'll also be creating a notecard explaining to RPGs why they should eliminate all sculpty items as soon as possible. It will also instruct the RPG owners to ask creators to make mesh versions of their sculpties. Plus, I will explain the mesh bonus of linking mesh items together. Do you really think I test things on a crappy PC? Well, yes I actually do. I own, use and run 4 different computers, all with different specs. That's how I test things. 2 of my pcs are probably better than what 95% of SL users use. None of my computers are more than 3 years old. 2 of them were purchased this past year. Plus, I got 2 video cards this past year. I knew sculpties were terrible for lag years ago. it is not brain surgery. Maybe your world is a world made for people in static poses taking photos of themselves. My world, has hundreds of people running, firing, kicking, and hitting, with NPCs leaping, biting and clawing. My world requires efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Thanks. So anyone can log into the Aditi grid and upload test mesh models? Is this one sim that eveyone stands on and does what they need to do? Do I have to register to Aditi or is my accound live there automatically? I would love to have the freedom to upload many sample models and test the rez quality to the level of decimation I did to my models? Also, to test different ways to get the model uploaded with a texture on it and have it look good. Then ... next is to figure out how to place a texture on clearly distinct surfaces / sides of a single model. I will have to try to get on Aditi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 ROFL :smileylol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Do you really think I test things on a crappy PC? Well, yes I actually do. I own, use and run 4 different computers, all with different specs. That's how I test things. 2 of my pcs are probably better than what 95% of SL users use. None of my computers are more than 3 years old. 2 of them were purchased this past year. Plus, I got 2 video cards this past year. Based on your previous posts.... YES I do think you must be using a crappy 10 year old PC because I have been on SL for 4 years and all these evil crappy Sculpty blobed trees you talk about at your neighbours place and how HORRENDOUS they are and that they dont even rez for you .... hmmm.... who is flinging the BS here Medhue?? So either you have the oldest PC known to man or you are blowing Sculpty lag WAYYYY out of proportion. I think its the latter. But thats ok.... we all can be blindly in love with something. Yours just happens to be Mesh. I am just unbiased about Sculpties or Mesh. I think both are good. You on the other hand have a 100% fully promoted HATE ON ALL SCULPTIES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You should reread my post and not confuse what I saw with what others say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 It depends on what viewer you use how to get in there, I think the normal LL viewer has the option for different grids by default on the logon page. It is certainly not a single sim with a ton of people on it, I occasionally see someone, no idea how many people are on it or how many sims it is, but there's always plenty of room. All you have to do is log into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I wont go through your multiple postings where you constantly tear apart the evil Sculpties... but here is one of your recent ones... @Drongle - I won't use sculpty trees. I have a neighbor that surrounds his tiny plot with sculpty trees and mountains, so much you can't see into his parcel. Whenever I get close enough to see his parcel, there is a long freeze as they all rez. It pisses me off to no end. So... if you have a PC that has more power than 95% of the SL Population.... maybe you better figure out how to configure a reasonably powered PC I have a PC that is as powerful as yours and hmmm... I dont have all your issues with sculpties. You know Medhue... it is alright for you to have a blinding bias for mesh and against all things Sculpty. You can sit and post how life before Mesh was a life of intolerable hell and suckiness. But just dont get all upset when the majority of the general population that have lived in all that is SL do not agree with you and actually have enjoyed the beauty that Sculpties introduced into SL. And NO Medhue... this might shock you but MESH LOVERS like you were not the only ones that ran aound and continue to run around sims and interact and get on sims with 40 to 70 avatars on them etc. But LOL I guess you want to believe that only you moved around in SL.... again.... you can believe what you want and hate what you hate. Just dont be too upset that thanks to LL.... Sculpties will be in your world a LONGGGGG time unless you want to live alone on your Mesh-only sim. Your neighbours and a majority of SL residents will take years to fully transition from all that EVIL Sculpty crud that you hate so much. Too much invested in sculpties and too much complexity and penalties on Mesh for sculpties to go away for a longgg time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I used Phoenix 1.6 and the latest beta of Firestorm. I also have other viewers for Inworldz. I do not use LL's Viewers. I will see if I can find it tonight. I assume it would be listed in the scroll down of grids at login? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwakkelde Kwak Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Yes top one if I'm not mistaken..don't forget to change back to agni when you actually want to upload something:) Also take in mind there's a 24 hour sweep, so if you're working on a big project, you need to copy it on a daily basis or better yet, take it back to inv before logging off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 thanks for the advice. this will be very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Toy, I came to the Marketplace Forum and talked about mesh to hopefully help people like yourself, Pam, and Mad, because you are fellow merchants and I knew you all were in the sculpty business. I preferr mesh because it is the logical choice, and for no other reason. If you choose to call people names and reject the help that we freely offer, what more can I do? The simple plain facts are that sculpties cause lag, and well made meshes do not. Why would I advise people to use sculpts? I'd be giving people bad advise. Of course, you can choose to do whatever you like, but I'd like to point out that every single day, your sculpty market gets smaller and smaller. As a business man, I'd rather be making things in a market that is growing, not a market that is shrinking. Hey, as long as we are making predictions, considering LL just told us 22% of all sim have a mesh rezzed on it, I'd bet that this will grow at more than a 10% rate per month. This would mean that mesh with have close to 100% sim adoption by the summer. All this, despite people like yourself screaming your propaganda, and you don't even understand mesh yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da5id Weatherwax Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: Toy, I came to the Marketplace Forum and talked about mesh to hopefully help people like yourself, Pam, and Mad, because you are fellow merchants and I knew you all were in the sculpty business. I preferr mesh because it is the logical choice, and for no other reason. If you choose to call people names and reject the help that we freely offer, what more can I do? The simple plain facts are that sculpties cause lag, and well made meshes do not. Why would I advise people to use sculpts? I'd be giving people bad advise. Of course, you can choose to do whatever you like, but I'd like to point out that every single day, your sculpty market gets smaller and smaller. As a business man, I'd rather be making things in a market that is growing, not a market that is shrinking. Hey, as long as we are making predictions, considering LL just told us 22% of all sim have a mesh rezzed on it, I'd bet that this will grow at more than a 10% rate per month. This would mean that mesh with have close to 100% sim adoption by the summer. All this, despite people like yourself screaming your propaganda, and you don't even understand mesh yet. In all fairness to both of you, Toy is not in a market that is shrinking. The particular area of sculptmaking Toy serves, and serves VERY well, will not be eclipsed by mesh any time soon or even ever. Large size scenery (that you dont need to walk on) is a speciality product and for as long as sculpts are still one prim will never be overtaken by mesh. If you need to walk on what you build, or it is on a smaller scale then mesh has increasing advantages and that changes the market dynamics. This is no different to how things were when sculpts were introduced - there were still things that could be better served by an experienced prim-torturer and there still are. Meshes with custom physics models will take away a few areas from both of those but I really dont see that either will be totally eclipsed by the introduction of mesh. Mesh penetrance in both the "inworld content" area and "viewer capabilities" area will continue to rise. As it does so the market will shift, and the specific areas best served by all the building methods will slowly shake out until the most efficient tool for a particular build is not only known but the market leader. Personally I predict that in a year or so, to justifiably call yourself a skilled builder for SL you'll have to know how to build with all three methods, primtwisting, sculpts and meshes, and will have to know which roles are best served by each and have that factored into your design decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drongle McMahon Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 "..to justifiably call yourself a skilled builder.." Agreed, but noting that "successful merchant" is not at all the same thing as "skilled builder". The former requires additional skills, in marketing at least, and these can go a long way to make up for a lack of the former. (That doesn't apply to anyone here .... in particular, Toys sculpties show a high level of skill.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I know my business Medhue. I know what my customer base wants for what I sell. I also know when is the right time in the evolution of a new technology for me to consider investing my time to create and put to market these new products. Right now, specially for what I make - Landscape features - the time is not right to put too much effort into creating MESH landscapes. For those Merchants like you and others that feel the time is right to be the bleeding edge leaders in making Mesh Landscapes.... more power to you! I am sure you will get a few customers that are as leading edge on buying mesh and rezzing them on their lands for 40% of thier visitors to see as you are convinced its time to spend effort to create package and sell them. You deserve harvesting these leading edge experimenting customers. My model is much more pregmatic and I will enter the market with Mesh Landscapes when I believe the SL critical mass of customers are ready for it and when mesh technology is perfected on the SL grid / environment. That will likely not be until this summer at the earliest. You do what you do... and I will do what I do. As for LL's statement that 20% of all SL sims have at least 1 rezzed Mesh on it..... that is the biggest laugh statistic coming from LL. First of all, even if it was accurate - 20% adoption is even less that I would have predicted. Secondly, LL not even clarify what that stat meant. So if I had a Mesh hair and I TPed onto the sim - that counts as 1 of the mesh'ed sims? Regardless, it was a stat that only embarassed LL. Finally, what we as the general SL Sculpty Merchants / Creators dont need are mesh cheerleading posts from a squad of SL Users who love mesh and hate sculpties. In fact, it insults all us Sculpty Creators when you or others come on to a business thread and tell us in your postings (even though you dont even see how you word your posting ) that MESH IS IT and if you all dont get off Sculpties you are ignorant dumb creators for continuing to create sculpties and why havent you all started to believe like me, you dont win many friends ande convince them to start building mesh. We need logical unbiased business / creator conversations and postings and discussions. We need LL to step up and and talk directly to the Merchant / Creator community... not just their comfort zone of fellow Mesh geekoids whom have already been won over long time ago about mesh at all costs. LL needs to educate the greater Sculpty building / selling community. They need to hear and respond ro our concerns that are more oriented around the BUSINESS of making and selling mesh... not just the fun of making lil mesh creations on private sims. They need to be offering incentives to get more sculpty creators to introduce MESH PACKS. i.e. like a 6 month window of FREE UPLOADS OF MESH. None of that is happening Medhue... so be upset.... think that the general builder community is ignorant and doesnt understand the light that you have seen in mesh. But the rest of us sculpty creators will begin to engage in mesh when each of us are convinced by the market and LL and the maturity of the technology to enter the market. If you really think I HATE mesh..... why do you think I am on this forum? Why do you think I have created my first experimental mesh models and learning new tools and methods and trying to find the most efficient PIPELINE for my mesh builds? You being condescending to creators like me that dont yet understand the incredible complexity of mesh development and importing into SL does NOTHING to convince us to build mesh. It only polarizes us to like mesh less because it must only be for you mesh geeks. Just keep that in mind next time you get on your I LOVE MESH I HATE SCULPTIES soapbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I totally agree. I love mesh and I am excited about mesh entering the SL grid. I am taking time now to learn more about it so I can see if there are aspects of my category of the SL market that mesh will work better than sculpties. But right now I dont see a huge demand for mesh landscapes. I think mesh already has huge potential for hair and some clothing (except for the mjor limit of not having this deformer). My early experimentation with mesh already tells me that it will be a godsend for creating 3D art !! I love freeform hand sculpting of non structured shapes. That is why I fell in love with trying to create the non structured natural flow of nature like rocks and water and waterfalls and earth formations. Its also why my first mesh models were of human statues. I could never have accomplished this with sculpties (others better than I have created amazing sculpty statues but they were very complex to assemble in sl). So I am real excited about Mesh building of freeform 3D art. but my current sculpty packs - only 6 of them - still generate over $70US a week in sales. I dont think personally right now that if I introduced a Mesh version of these landscape packs that they would sell a fraction of that weekly sales - nor might they ever. shrugs - i could be wrong but right now I dont think i am. So I think its best we all stop debating the future of MESH - we all know it will be the dominent technology in the future. Just help us MESH DUMMIES understand the complexities of mesh you all already seem to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drongle McMahon Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 "So Drongle..." I would just make an alt called "Grongle" :matte-motes-smile:. Just as a mesh seller could start making sculpties! You couldn't be more wrong about the mesh beta people. I do understand the reasoning that they used to develop the LI system because of being exposed to all the changes as it came into being, but I can assure you that I and the majority of others did everything we could think of to persuade them not to penalise (yes - it's just semantics) mesh. Came close to depairing of the whole thing until we discovered a bug whose correction did halve the PE (now LI). We went over the mesh vs scuplty thing over and over. You could look through the mesh forum archive for a few of the discussions if you wanted, although I wouldn't say that weas a good way of spending time. I don't know why some people assume that anyone in the beta is necessarily a sycophant. That is certainly not true, and they wouldn't have been much use to the developers if they were. We do agree that they made a msitake. I think it was not penalising large sculpties (or subsidising them). You think it was penalising large mesh (or not subsidising them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 lol how did i know that would be your response? LOL it means you are entrepeneurial and creative. I would have done the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I'll never, ever be making another product with a sculpty, or a normal prim. If you understand mesh, then you'd understand exactly why. Prims are a good start for some1 first learning. They are the perfect segway into 3d creation programs. Something made out of prims, is not something I will generally ever buy. The whole point of me buying something is that I don't want to make it, and the person I'm buying from is great at doing this specific thing. Now, I've said many times, It's pretty dang amazing what people have created with prims and sculpties. That said, even the best of these can't hold a candle to a good mesh. If some1 wants to play merchant, and make little trinkets, sure, advertising that you use the range of tools to make your creations is cute, and sounds good. The reality is tho, if you can make a good mesh, you would never, ever create non mesh parts, or non mesh anything. Mesh covers all of it, better, faster and more efficiently. Even a cube. The only thing a mesh can't replace is a flexy. If you are a serious merchant, that does or expects to make a living making virtual products, you better learn how to make a mesh. The standard will be mesh, and if you can't make it, don't go buying a house planning on paying for it with what you earn in SL. Sure, this is not gonna happen overnight, which means people have time to learn, and many of us willing to help. See, I don't believe in painting pretty pictures for people when It comes to life decisions like relying on SL income. Every business person has to be honest about the future and their commitment to that. If you tell people they can still make grocery money selling prim objects, that could mean they keep doing this instead of preparing for the inevitable. I agree, Toy is in a unique market. 1 that is not as saturated as others. This just gives himself a little more time. Given that mesh is here tho, I'd be willing to bet there will be many more landscape creators in the future, and they won't be using sculpts at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drongle McMahon Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 "You two make me laugh......" Always glad to raise a laugh, but wrong again. You are imagining my views to suit your preconceptions. I love sculpties. I hugely admire some all-sculpty builds (eg). The rezzing problem is not necessary, it would go away if they simply left them invisible until the sculpt map was fully loaded. The ugly LODs are mostly the designers' fault. My problem is nothing to do with my machine(s), which are well above the average spec, it's my bandwidth. A new house is a bit more expensive than a new computer where I am. The effect is that I have to wait a long time before I can enjoy such places. For those it's worth it, but it usually isn't for run-of-the-mill places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Where exactly was I condescending. I'm giving you the facts and my opinions based on those facts. I'm treating you like an adult for whom I don't have to wipe their butt for. Talking to people like they are children means you don't give them the true hard facts, and you sugar coat it for them cause their poor feelings might get hurt. If your feelings are hurt because every1 knows that sculpties cause lag, oh well, get over it. Never once have I insulted any1's intelligence nor called any1 names. Although I have some gripes about some aspects of mesh, and despite the complexity of understanding mesh, I think the formula and the restrictions for mesh are pretty reasonable. I don't see LL changing any aspect of the Land Impact. If they do anything, it would likely be raising the upload cost. Actually, I think that LL is quite generous with the poly to prim ratio. Let's see, I've been around, engaged in the forums for at least 4 years now, almost always siding with merchants on all the most important issues. Now, tho, I'm an LL cheerleader. Not because mesh sucks or anything, but simply because me, a 3d creator, fricken LOVEs mesh. And, YES, I LOVE it. Oh, and I was in the same room as a Linden, a few times. You should have seen what I did to Charlar, lol. He was asking for it changing into that tree tho. You can take what I say as attack to sculpty creators, or you could look at it like I'm trying to warn a community for which I care about, that things are changing and how they might figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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