OFFLINE IMs Improvement Needed for Merchants

[Sassy Romano]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

It would be nice if this advanced service were on Android or iphone devices as an app.  But if this app were created, it would also be nice to have the ability to not only originate an IM to any resident, it would be nice to transfer $L money to this account (often my customers need a refund or rebate transaction executed by me).

 

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Well... I use Mobile Grid Client on Android for text/teleport/payment/group chat and other stuff when I am out and about and don't need a UI.  If I do need a UI, then I can use Splashtop on my phone too.

Toy, I agree with you that there's a need but I feel it will not work for the following reasons:-

• If the recipients IM's are capped, the message is lost if they don't forward to email and instead of a message being returned to sender, it's a blind send.
• Far too many merchants themselves are utterly convinced that their IM's cap daily and in many cases haven't realised they can forward IM's to email and so insist on the equivalent of a postcard for communications.  If merchants can't get even work this, what chance do you expect of customers?
• Some are adament that even when IM's to email is enabled they still lose plenty (though it's hard to determine that you've not received something that you didn't know you were going to receive).

If LL had a clue and were able to define their target market and understand what they needed to build, they would have already brought out a mobile client by now.

Instead of making one method of communications robust, reliable and scaleable, LL continue to fragment communications such that we have the following:-

• The profile wall
• IM's
• Notecards
• That profile thing that emails or IM's depending on logged in status but does nothing sensible

So until LL focus on one of them and make it the defacto method of all round communications, an enhancement as you propose just won't work.

You know that i'm all for IM's to email and as I said, I do agree that email to IM's would be nice too, if only you knew that it got there!

By the way, the email reply is valid for 5 days, not 2.

 

 

[Mickey Vandeverre]

 "LL please develop an SL Grid email system to IM generation service so that anyone in RL can send an email to the resident's official name @ secondlife.com."  

 

Good lord, man...have you lost your mind?

People come here to escape.

Why would you need to be contacting anyone who has not already sent you a message?

If I wanted to communicate with you all day long, then you would already have my email address.

[Toysoldier Thor]

I guess Mickey doesnt read the thread and picks convenient sentences out for comment.

I explained why... I will let you read to figure out why most SL Humans might want this.

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

It would be nice if this advanced service were on Android or iphone devices as an app.  But if this app were created, it would also be nice to have the ability to not only originate an IM to any resident, it would be nice to transfer $L money to this account (often my customers need a refund or rebate transaction executed by me).

 

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Well... I use Mobile Grid Client on Android for text/teleport/payment/group chat and other stuff when I am out and about and don't need a UI.  If I do need a UI, then I can use Splashtop on my phone too.

Toy, I agree with you that there's a need but I feel it will not work for the following reasons:-

• If the recipients IM's are capped, the message is lost if they don't forward to email and instead of a message being returned to sender, it's a blind send.
• Far too many merchants themselves are utterly convinced that their IM's cap daily and in many cases haven't realised they can forward IM's to email and so insist on the equivalent of a postcard for communications.  If merchants can't get even work this, what chance do you expect of customers?
• Some are adament that even when IM's to email is enabled they still lose plenty (though it's hard to determine that you've not received something that you didn't know you were going to receive).

If LL had a clue and were able to define their target market and understand what they needed to build, they would have already brought out a mobile client by now.

Instead of making one method of communications robust, reliable and scaleable, LL continue to fragment communications such that we have the following:-

• The profile wall
• IM's
• Notecards
• That profile thing that emails or IM's depending on logged in status but does nothing sensible

So until LL focus on one of them and make it the defacto method of all round communications, an enhancement as you propose just won't work.

You know that i'm all for IM's to email and as I said, I do agree that email to IM's would be nice too, if only you knew that it got there!

By the way, the email reply is valid for 5 days, not 2.

 

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Ohh well if its technically not possible to IM from an external source then so be it.

Just ticks me off.  I can see the resident I need to talk to is online but I cant send him / her an IM to tell them something possibly urgent or conveniently.  Just shows how ass backwards the SL communications is.  Gotta resort to sending an email to a known trusted SL friend that I know is online and that I can email them to tell them a specific message via IM to another resident on SL that I cannot contact effectively.

YES I know full well that SL's inworld communications of IMs is as reliable as convict on the stand telling the truth, but its the only IM that SL offers that all residents use and understand.

Still also not sure why LL has this rediculously low 25 stored IM's limit when all kinds of notifications also come to a resident via IMs.  Why not 100?

Shrugs.... well good thing you said it was useless Sassy - now I dont have to waste my time writing a JIRA which would have died unseen of old age in the JIRA system.

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[Mickey Vandeverre]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

I guess Mickey doesnt read the thread and picks convenient sentences out for comment.

I explained why... I will let you read to figure out why most SL Humans might want this.

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I read this:

"I want a simple and universal RL access to any SL Avatar.   The easiest  way is for me to be able to SMTP Email the avatar @ secondlife.com"

That kinda defeats the purpose of an escape.

What do you mean by "SL Human?"   as opposed to what?

Where did you get the "most" concept?

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

I guess Mickey doesnt read the thread and picks convenient sentences out for comment.

I explained why... I will let you read to figure out why most SL Humans might want this.

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I read this:

"I want a simple and universal RL access to any SL Avatar.   The easiest  way is for me to be able to SMTP Email the avatar @ secondlife.com"

That kinda defeats the purpose of an escape.

What do you mean by "SL Human?"   as opposed to what?

Where did you get the "most" concept?

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First of all ... IF this enhancement was available, you Mikey can enter into SL and escape all you want.  You dont have to use the feature from the outside RL of sending and email to the inworld since you are already inworld.  If you are not logged into SL and you find this feature is so crazy - the solution is easy - dont use it.  Dont ever send an email into the SL grid to a specific Avatar.

Secondly... if some other SL user wanted to IM you via this email sending IM solution, what would the difference be if it were me IMing you from inworld or me sending an email to Mickey.Vandeverre@secondlife.com that coverts it to an IM and you get my IM this way?  At the end of the day you are still escaped inworld and got my IM.  How did this disturb you any more or less during your "ESCAPE" into SL?

So you are telling my when you are in SL , you shut off all other RL interfaces to you?  Your PC's email is off? Your Skype, Yahoo, MSN, Facebook, Twitter services are all turned off in order to ensure your ESCAPE?  Do you enter a dark room in your home and lock the door and instruct all others in your home to never enter your ZEN SL Room while you are ESCAPING?

If so.... I am impressed you escape the RL to such a level.  Most of the rest of us do not require an escape with such purity.  My RL email is still running and if one shows up - EEEK - I even open it up and read it while in SL.  My family yells and bugs me.  I read twitter as I am in SL.  I dont seem to need this escape to such an extreme as you.

I am as shocked as Tara on the level of instant knee-jerk "sky is falling" theoretical "the sanctity of SL will be disturbed from the evils of RL" postings that has come out from this thread and concept.

But Mikey - you and some other can rest your pretty lil heads since its an idea that Sassy siad is technically not feasible in the limited technical world of SL and even if it were possible you know very well that LL would never have developed a CUSTOMER IDEA anyway.

[Sassy Romano]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

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Ohh well if its technically not possible to IM from an external source then so be it.

Shrugs.... well good thing you said it was useless Sassy - now I dont have to waste my time writing a JIRA which would have died unseen of old age in the JIRA system.

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Far from it, the technology is easy but without convincing existing merchants and residents to TURN ON IM's to email, it won't work as a method of expected to be reliable communication, unless that person is online.

The issue is not a technical one.  How many merchants do you see whose profile says "My IM's are capped" let alone the residents who don't even know that it happens.

That's all I was saying.  It's a fine idea, it just needs other things in place for it to work as an overall solution.

[Ann Otoole]

It isn't the possible spam I worry about. SMTP systems are the easiest ways for hackers to penetrate networks. No SMTP? a zillion times safer.

[Mickey Vandeverre]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

I guess Mickey doesnt read the thread and picks convenient sentences out for comment.

I explained why... I will let you read to figure out why most SL Humans might want this.

---

I read this:

"I want a simple and universal RL access to any SL Avatar.   The easiest  way is for me to be able to SMTP Email the avatar @ secondlife.com"

That kinda defeats the purpose of an escape.

What do you mean by "SL Human?"   as opposed to what?

Where did you get the "most" concept?

---

First of all ... IF this enhancement was available, you Mikey can enter into SL and escape all you want.  You dont have to use the feature from the outside RL of sending and email to the inworld since you are already inworld.  If you are not logged into SL and you find this feature is so crazy - the solution is easy - dont use it.  Dont ever send an email into the SL grid to a specific Avatar.

Secondly... if some other SL user wanted to IM you via this email sending IM solution, what would the difference be if it were me IMing you from inworld or me sending an email to

Mickey.Vandeverre@secondlife.com

that coverts it to an IM and you get my IM this way?  At the end of the day you are still escaped inworld and got my IM.  How did this disturb you any more or less during your "ESCAPE" into SL?

So you are telling my when you are in SL , you shut off all other RL interfaces to you?  Your PC's email is off? Your Skype, Yahoo, MSN, Facebook, Twitter services are all turned off in order to ensure your ESCAPE?  Do you enter a dark room in your home and lock the door and instruct all others in your home to never enter your ZEN SL Room while you are ESCAPING?

If so.... I am impressed you escape the RL to such a level.  Most of the rest of us do not require an escape with such purity.  My RL email is still running and if one shows up - EEEK - I even open it up and read it while in SL.  My family yells and bugs me.  I read twitter as I am in SL.  I dont seem to need this escape to such an extreme as you.

I am as shocked as Tara on the level of instant knee-jerk "sky is falling" theoretical "the sanctity of SL will be disturbed from the evils of RL" postings that has come out from this thread and concept.

But Mikey - you and some other can rest your pretty lil heads since its an idea that Sassy siad is technically not feasible in the limited technical world of SL and even if it were possible you know very well that LL would never have developed a CUSTOMER IDEA anyway.

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I think there's a difference between sending an IM from inworld, and in having access all day long, as well as an assumption that you are available all day long, or it is acceptable to not respect that some just do not want the two venues/worlds meshed at all.  It's different, because your time is limited inworld, and that reduces the amount of stuff that would come into an inbox.  Opening that up to 24 hours a day.....you be the judge on that.

To be fair, I get frustrated about it being so closed up, but a good portion of the people who seemed to benefit from it not being closed up seem to heading out.  The folks I was talking to a year ago, that would have benefitted from the venue if it were NOT all closed up, well there's not much here for them anymore. 

But they still would not have been the "most" I don't think - that's up for debate.  If I had to lay a wager on the table, I would wager that "most" want to separate worlds pretty distinctly.  And that seems to be who they are marketing toward (at the moment - lord knows, we rarely have a clue on that particular plan)  Look at the front page.  I don't see any lure there for an educator or business man that needs a conference room. Or artist.  Or musician.  certainly not a retailer.  It might be in a box at the bottom of the page, but that's not really a "lure."

But even laying a wager like that is treading on thin ice, as people use it for entirely different reasons.

Did you read the pages of concerns when they opened up the social networking system? 

How I "escape" or how another "escapes".....not really up to be analyzed here.  Just consider the concept.  Seems like you're judging a wee bit on that.  Or maybe just being sarcastic.

Still not clear on what this SL Human tag is, or the opposite of that, first time I saw that reference come up.

"Most of the rest of us do not require an escape with such purity"

I'm just not sure that the "most" needs to be added to that. 

It's Mickey with a "C"...not Mikey.

 

 

[Mickey Vandeverre]

Sounds like what you are describing that you need would be cured by using Metabolt.  I used it for a while and it was great tool on a computer that did not provide the resources that I needed to log inworld and do some basic business.  It will even let you send inventory. 

And it takes no more time to log into that, than it takes to log into a browser.

It had some limitations for me, since when I log inworld, there are usually some requests there to go visit places.  And I had to keep explaining that I was not able to tp around on that system.  But sounds like you use SL mainly for business and not for networking and socializing.  Would probably be good tool for you.

[Sassy Romano]

His point is that metabolt and any of the other such clients, even a web page, require either installing on the PC used at work or other location, or that thed secondlife.com domain is not blocked.

In many organisations, the user won't have local rights on the PC to install, or just may not wish to install on that PC.  A web email client is all that's required to initiate a response and Toy is coming from the Customer Service angle here, the ability to pro-actively contact a customer and deliver best service.

It won't merge worlds, intrude or in any other way cause peoples hair to fall out.

If I were to send an email from my phone email client to john.smith@secondlife.com he would receive it when he logged in or via his own IM to email process.  There's no crossover, it's no different from the receipients perspective as if I had logged in sent via an SL client.

The only problem is that it's not a method where I could expect him to receive it any more than it does right now, due to the way the 26th message is handled with capping and most people reasonably expect email to get there.

Metabolt will work functionally where it is permitted, as will any other client but there are times when I won't log in like that such as if I have been offline and there's a group invite for a group I am waiting for in order to gain land rez rights for example.  If I log in via a text client, that message is cleared from the offline IM queue without me having an opportunity to join and accept the group tag.  Result, I have to go through the process of requesting a group tag all over again.  Can take days to get it. 

Similarly, logging of IM's to text logs, I like them all on the one PC so that I have a customer reference.  They won't be in one place if using a text client.

Toy's suggestion is very simple and valid one, it has NO impact on escape, immersion or similar and is only flawed due to end users not having IM's to email set up or knowing how that works.

[Toysoldier Thor]

Sassy and Tara get it. 

That is what I mean.  A simple and universal external interface for an SL user that is not logged in and possibly in a RL environment where by Internet access is highly restricted (like a business office with highly restricted Internet access or computing options).

The only part that Sassy mentions which is not a big deal for me is that IF the recipient is not online in SL then there is always the risk that the recipient may not get the IM I send him/her if their IM limit has been reached.  That is not a big deal for me as this risk is true for ANYONE that sends an IM to a SL user that is not logged in.  I am willing to accept that risk since I do now inworld.

If the user is online then this is not a problem.  If the user's IM Limit is not capped then this is not an issue.

But I dont see this concern as being THE REASON why having offline initiating email-to-IM service should not be persued.

 

[Sassy Romano]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

If the user is online then this is not a problem.  If the user's IM Limit is not capped then this is not an issue.

But I dont see this concern as being

THE REASON

why having offline initiating email-to-IM service should not be persued.

 

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and I agree, it would just be nicer if the offline cap was raised to a sensible level or even say offline IM's from avatars not discarded but DO discard offline IM's from objects.  That would probably mitigate a lot of vendor/system type messages that can easily cap someone with the limit set to 25.

As an overall process, I much prefer the IM route which is why i'd like to see it made more robust in general such that things like your suggestion here, do work as an overall solution.

[Toysoldier Thor]

So Sassy... do you know why LL has not raised the limit of IMs from 25?  Is this just LL being lazy and/or distracted playing with their own interests and totally ignoring the problems that their customers always run into?  OR is there a true unresolvable technical limit why LL cannot simply raise the limit 100?

I have no strong IN with any LL developers or staff that would know the answer.  Does any Merchant have an IN with a LL to get the behind-the-scene answer why IM limits cannot be raised?

[Sassy Romano]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

So Sassy... do you know why LL has not raised the limit of IMs from 25?  Is this just LL being lazy and/or distracted playing with their own interests and totally ignoring the problems that their customers always run into?  OR is there a true unresolvable technical limit why LL cannot simply raise the limit 100?

I have no strong IN with any LL developers or staff that would know the answer.  Does any Merchant have an IN with a LL to get the behind-the-scene answer why IM limits cannot be raised?

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I suspect it's just one of those numbers thought up way back in the day.  Why do they only permit access to 30 days of transaction logs etc.  (ok that's probably because of the huge number of total transactions and cost of storage so it gets archived but remove the L$0 transactions and it should be possible to get any higher value stored and accessible. 

Banks manage it.

[Mickey Vandeverre]

ok, was just a suggestion.  I've always taken my own laptops into the office, but work from home now.  Even when using the office internet access, second life was never blocked.

I understand the customer service angle.  I've been loggin in all day long for a week to hand deliver failed deliveries, just spent another hour this morning doing that, and will go in at lunch time and do it again.

If people do not have their messages sent to email, for some, there is a very good reason for that, and it involves escape and separation.  Ya'll need to get out of your workshops more to understand that.  I've obviously not done a very good job of explaining.  I doubt that anything I add to that would clarify it further.

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

Thanks Mickey...

Glad its cleared up.

Again... that being said... this thread and OP was only an acedemic activity since LL cant even fix major SL resident-wide frustrating limits like 25 IM cap or that the transaction history can only go up to 30 days.

If these 5 minute changes cant be accomplished by LL - there is no way an enhancement like Email-to-IM service would ever be considered by Rod and his team.

[Rene Erlanger]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

I have no strong IN with any LL developers or staff that would know the answer.  Does any Merchant have an IN with a LL to get the behind-the-scene answer why IM limits cannot be raised?

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There are many ex-Linden employees including Devs...some of which might use Twitter. Just need to locate one of them and ask that question.

[Sassy Romano]

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

ok, was just a suggestion.  I've always taken my own laptops into the office, but work from home now.  Even when using the office internet access, second life was never blocked.

I understand the customer service angle.  I've been loggin in all day long for a week to hand deliver failed deliveries, just spent another hour this morning doing that, and will go in at lunch time and do it again.

If people do not have their messages sent to email, for some, there is a very good reason for that, and it involves escape and separation.  Ya'll need to get out of your workshops more to understand that.  I've obviously not done a very good job of explaining.  I doubt that anything I add to that would clarify it further.

 

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Still in many organisations, people are not permitted to connect their personal device to a corporate network.

As for separation, i'd just respond by suggesting set up something like a gmail account.  It's ony a form of offline message, no different to the one inworld.  Nobody is suggesting it has to get mixed up with RL personal emails.  Merchant or not, I just don't understand the apparent desire to knowingly not get communication from someone that might have something useful to say.  Each to their own though.

[Toysoldier Thor]

Good idea.  I will Tweet the question out to any Ex-Lindens in hopes some will respond.

I want to know why:

1) IM limits are 25 and cannot be increased to 100 or more

2) Why is SL's main transaction history stuck at 30 days when MP transactions can go much further

[Mickey Vandeverre]

Perhaps you should drop the proposal into the General Discussion area for more support. 

Of course it would be good tool for merchants, but you are suggesting a tool that would be applied across the board, and you are getting mainly merchant feedback here.

If not applied across the board, then it would hardly be effective for you.  You can find some similarities there with the new social networking strategy.  I'm not going to invest time in that, unless good portion of people are using it, and they are not.

If it is opt-in or opt-out, again....messes with the effectiveness.  But any time you add something like that, you sure better make it opt-in or opt-out.

I don't have a clue if LL is intentionally not using it to protect and respect their customers who prefer escape and separation - if that's reason, then kudos to them.  As someone who prefers a little bit of time in SL as an escape - I hope that they do not ever put it into action.

You are discussing "mechanics" - I'm suggesting "concepts"   

[Mickey Vandeverre]

when I'm doing business - I want the communication.

if I feel like being a mermaid or a kittycat for a few hours.....

no - I do not need all of that adventure clogging up my inboxes all day. 

Continually suggesting that as a merchant, I do not want communication, over and over again, in each thread....

not necessary.

I'm simply suggesting the impression that I get from reading profiles all day long - and people are using SL in many different ways.  Without respect for the ones who use it for an adventure or escape - then I have no customers, if you want to relate this to business only.

but as an escape and adventure customer (at times) - - I would not want it.

[Sassy Romano]

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

when I'm doing business - I want the communication.

if I feel like being a mermaid or a kittycat for a few hours.....

no - I do not need all of that adventure clogging up my inboxes all day. 

Continually suggesting that as a merchant, I do not want communication, over and over again, in each thread....

not necessary.

I'm simply suggesting the impression that I get from reading profiles all day long - and people are using SL in many different ways.  Without respect for the ones who use it for an adventure or escape - then I have no customers, if you want to relate this to business only.

but as an escape and adventure customer (at times) - - I would not want it.

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I'm actually struggling to comprehend what's said here, just in the sentence construct but that aside, are you saying that say you bought something in the morning as a human and there was an issue with it, that when you're a kittycat later on you do not want to receive a response at all and would rather lose the message when the merchant pro-actively tries to help?

That's how I read it.

[Mickey Vandeverre]

I doubt that writing more eloquently would help, and sorry, not a writer.

People use SL for all different kinds of scenarios. 

You are proposing something that is handy for merchant and shopper, but would be applied across the board, and effect others.  You're focused on one aspect.

Continually suggesting that I or others do not want to communicate with shoppers is not necessary.

If you can't grasp that people are doing other things in SL than what you are doing - no amount of words or eloquent speech will get that across.

[Sassy Romano]

I get the whole "come here for different things" what I don't understand is with regard to immersion/separation etc, if you receive an IM, why does it matter if it came from Firestorm client, LL client, metabolt, Mobile Grid Client, or as in this suggestion, an email client?  Nor can you really control when anyone chooses to send you an IM, other than muting everyone or being in RLV with IM's blocked.

Every single one would arrive to you whether you were presently a human avatar, a cardboard box avatar, a mermaid or a kittycat.

People receive an IM, they don't know, nor need to know from what client it originated and in no way does it alter the reasons for anyone being here or how they interact, that's why it's elegant!

So that's where i'm confused, my understanding from the post I referred to appeared to indicate that you didn't want to receive IM's at certain times, is that correct?  How do you deal with that at present?